How Modern Horror Movies Value CONCEPT Over Character

[@voltinator]

The reason for the shift was cellphones. By the 90s writers began to realize that most horror villains could be thwarted with a simple call to a friend, so they began segueing their stories around set pieces where cellphones aren't around.

[@nafspark]

This also affected sitcoms and romcoms and others, some of which handled this gracefully by developing plots that didn't fall apart with a simple phone call or which came up with natural and plausible explanations for why the characters were out of touch with each other, but I've also seen way too many examples where the writers do such a completely nonsensical thing or series of events to take communication off the table that it completely takes me out of the story altogether.

[@andrewthezeppo]

And the internet both because streaming changed how people watch things and the plots of a lot of older horror movies would fall apart if people had access to Google.

[@DeathnoteBB]

I mean they could also either just ignore the existence of them or have them break. Not to mention in some cases a phone call isn’t gonna help. Oh Jason is inside the house? Sorry the cops will be here after he has the time to find you!

[@voltinator]

@@DeathnoteBB It's not only cellphones but also security cameras. Literally with security cameras everywhere modern people feel comfortable that criminals can be tracked. So your boogieman better be a ghost or else the audience will just ask "where is the footage?"

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@voltinator Lmao you ever seen security footage? That shit is blurry as crap. If anything it makes people feel less safe cause _they’re_ being tracked, yet somehow criminals can never be identified.

[@driley4381]

IMO...Ghostface from Scream is the last true iconic slasher villain I can think of. Which is kind of fitting seeing as how the whole point of Scream was to comment on the tropes of the genre as a whole.

[@sophiecooper1824]

​@School Film hell yeah Art is becoming a horror icon fast .

[@j.o.7521]

I know the second terrifier wasnt released yet when this vid was but Art the clown is a really memerable villain that will become big fast now

[@jayjay-iu3wc]

Not any more not with Terrifier Art the Clown.... finally a movie with a freah breath of air something new...he's the next Freddy Krueger

[@jasonberryman1035]

There’s definitely still iconic villains in horror but these days they tend to be more one off and less characterized. Like I’ll always remember Paimon from Hereditary or the Mother in Barbarian but it’s not like those threats will return in sequel movies and they didn’t carry the same charismatic personality so often seen in older slasher threats.

[@bezoticallyyours83]

Jigsaw Killer came shortly after Ghostface. Arty is a great new modern horror villains. The Grabber is a minor one.

[@umnia4316]

Haunting of hill house is not only my favourite horror, but one of my favourite pieces of storytelling. It is totally a character driven story and it made it feel so intimate and personal, it made me wish more horror films and tv were made like that

[@ScottCramer]

Hill House and Bly Manor are both incredible in their own ways. They knocked it out of the park, and I’m generally not a fan of horror.

[@davidbjacobs3598]

@@ScottCramer Then check out Midnight Mass! Same creative team with a lot of the same actors. It's more of a slow-burn, but oh my Lord does it pay off.

[@HamuelTheGrey]

I thought it was a great show. The only thing I didn’t like is they did a lot of (in my opinion) cheap jump scares with loud noises unrelated to the story..

[@jacobbarnes1453]

It is very good.

[@ButterCookie1984]

Same here. Its chilling everytime I watch it.

[@tracyw5743]

In “Don’t Breathe,” his name was just The Blind Man. I liked that no elaborate backstory was given. Honestly, I get tired of flashbacks and movies going into too much detail about a character.

[@x3ph34r]

Don't watch the second one. From what you just described, you probably won't like it. In case you DO decide to watch it I won't say more but I loved the first one, did not care for the second one at all.

[@tracyw5743]

@@x3ph34r Thanks for the heads up. Details are nice but too many unnecessary ones ruin a movie.

[@joshheralal8758]

@Erik Kemeey Except there isn't a likeable character in the movie.

[@joshheralal8758]

@Erik Kemeey Oh hey Erik. How's it been? Good I hope. Anyway, it is a bad adaption.

[@joshheralal8758]

@Erik Kemeey MoS was inspired by Earth One but even Earth One Superman acted more like, y'know, Superman.

[@Player-re9mo]

You know what horror movie I'd really like to see? One where the monster has to deal with someone like Sherlock Holmes. Too many stupid mistakes made by stupid people. I'm curious how a genius like Holmes would handle those monsters and how those monsters would adapt to him.

[@dippin4dots]

Oh boy, You're Next is the epitome of that concept. Not really monsters, but still smart character vs threat. Hush is also in this category.

[@Player-re9mo]

@@dippin4dots thanks for the recommendations!

[@OlgaKuznetsova]

Ooooh, that's such a great idea! I'd love to see that too!

[@kaimagnus5760]

Protagonist: *Goes outside for a smoke* Monster: *Slinks out of the pool to ambush him* Protagonist: *Throws lit cigar into pool igniting the gasoline he filled it up with the previous day* Monster: Hey wait! Thats illigal!

[@mungosmungo8694]

Try the Sherlock Holmes Dracula files.

[@grimaffiliations3671]

I prefer concept too. Movies like It Follows, The Platform, Get Out and A quite Place aren't particularly scary but they're some of my faves

[@daddykratos-8]

Well once you're an adult 'scary' movies aren't actually scary anymore, so you need a little bit more. My absolute favorite movies are horror there's just too few horror movies that are worth watching.

[@grimaffiliations3671]

@rD mooD2 Absolutely. Crazy how underrated it is

[@thehumblewolf]

You had me at it Follows and the platform but the rest are 🗑

[@grimaffiliations3671]

@@thehumblewolf You thought get out was bad? hmm. And a quite place mightve had a predictabable flaw in the monsters but it was overall very enjoyable and unique

[@thehumblewolf]

@@grimaffiliations3671 get out wasnt bad at all sorry I was thinking of “us” . Get Out was really good maybe just a haaair overrated imo - also the trash cgi and wooden story in a quiet place put me off. And that’s as a big John Krisinski fan and a person that’s part of the deaf community 🤷

[@_thomas1031]

I just have to really appreciate the quiet place for its acting, story idea, lack of needless gore, and unique sound design basis. I was thrilled,scared, and emotionally touched. I don't believe many "horror" movies either possess that ability or really desire to include it within their story, the genre definitely has its own styles and objectives

[@muntmunt3155]

I believe it was a masterpiece. It had a simple story, but delivered it so darn well, that the simplicity of it made it that much more special

[@danielmlinar4892]

Your opinion about needless gore, says enough about mainstream audience and the downfall of the genre...

[@danielmlinar4892]

@Anthony Lopez Conjuring is not slasher movie. It doesn't really need gore.

[@joshbare4828]

Just one small critique. The image you used for the Invisible Man was actually The Phantom of the Opera. Other than that, I completely agree. Though, there are some exceptions to this rule. The Witch and The Night House are very character driven horror movies. You feel for the main characters in both movies, the two main women as their worlds fall apart around them.

[@QueryBuns]

The invisible man was in front of the phantom of the opera, ya just couldnt see him cuz ya know...

[@joshbare4828]

@@QueryBuns Can't believe I didn't see him.

[@thegecko1742]

Came here to recommend night house. Glad to see someone mention it.

[@MissAmazanda]

I liked the movie the night house a lot

[@niktri8312]

Sure, but things like Freddy and Chucky are also high concept films. Like, the original Nightmare didn't sell you on the then unknown Freddy Krueger, it sold you on the idea that it's a killer who enters your dreams.

[@liamsinclair4577]

Hate to be that guy, but Nancy Callahan is a character from Sin City. Nancy THOMPSON is the lead in A Nightmare on Elm Street

[@tugger]

liam you are that guy lol

[@LadyAstarionAncunin]

@@tugger They know. They said they were.

[@anubusx]

I noticed that myself.

[@ButterCookie1984]

I noticed that too!!

[@LeonardoAngelone]

Thank you! I was looking for this comment! ❤️

[@motherplayer]

I remember even back when watching "The Purge" in 2013 that the concept was ill-suited to such a contained film and a clear show of a small budget for the film. And even when the sequels got bigger budgets and could do more, it only opened up more questions about the concept that the films never really spend time ruminating on like why most people spend time killing instead of robbing or such, even after it's had like 4 sequels and a T.V. show. "The Belko Experiment" was actually a better step with a deathmatch corporate satire and "Mayhem" still remains easily the best film of all of the previously mentioned to use these ideas, marrying satire, horror and action in a mix that finally felt like someone used these ideas effectively. It was the film I wished "The Purge" was.

[@eclipse369.]

clearly propaganda movies Government = you can kill anyone but us What someone should do is make a purge movie remake with that flipped The government says hey you can "purge" one day this year but we are off limits. Then the humans get together and kill every government worker in the country. The next day = your happy ending. But they wont happen cus the government dont like bad press or giving the people ideas or hints of freedom lol. Just obey, conform, consume, dont think.

[@piratatazmania]

The thing that distinguishes A Quiet Place from all the other horror movies, in my opinion is this: In any horror movie, such as Freddy Kruger, The Ring, Get Out, It, etcetera, in order to defeat the bad guy, around half way of the movie everyone recognizes that in order to do so, they need to learn about their origin. It? Origin. The Ring? Origin. Get Out? Origin. Every single monster has an origin, and in every single case, that origin must be found because its weakness is linked to its origin, in one way or another. Now, did the monsters from AQP came from a meteorite, underground, a lab or a portal? You don't know and you don't care, because the only thing that matters is to be quiet as possible to survive. The character don't go in any quest to find the source of the monsters in order to find the way to destroy it, they don't go to its lair, they don't care where it came from. The just want to survive. And for that reason alone, I believe that A Quiet Place is a much better horror movie than even the classics.

[@thattime893]

Wow never thought of it that way

[@Weebslayer13]

Wow that's actually a really good perspective I've never thought about before! That might be why I didn't like it though lol I found it extremely boring and I turned it off halfway through, I also didn't like how quiet it was but that's just a me problem 😂

[@thewhitewolf58]

Honestly a quiet place was boring we need a serial killer at a summer camp thats what the kids want not this gimmick shit

[@thattime893]

Personally I've never watched it I've only ever seen scenes from when my friends were watching it

[@tracyw5743]

I thought about Lord Voldemort while reading this. His origin had to be discovered in order to defeat him too in a sense. Well said.

[@brianward6291]

I wouldn't necessarily put 'quiet place' in this category - great mix of creature feature, suspense, etc - it excels at character creation by removing actors ability to 'talk' for themselves, requiring them to act with motion/facial expressions, creating a LOT of investment on the part of audiences.

[@SavouryGalette]

As a massive horror enthusiast, I can confidently say that modern horror doesn't scare me as much as older horror films. Films like Smile, The Midnight Man, etc. are so bad that I can barely get through them without laughing. That's not to say there isn't _any_ good modern horror, but a lot of it is bland and soulless.

[@philosophiabme]

I feel that A Quiet Place 2 does a great job at focusing on the characters rather than the concept.

[@DeathnoteBB]

A Quiet Place 1 is entirely about the characters as well though

[@TheBestcommentor]

This is one my favorite types of videos from you. Really breaking down art in a way that explains archetypes, genres, tropes, and all the reasons we have them and why they change.

[@lvnar5734]

I don’t personally think character-driven horror is always better than concept-driven, stuff like analog horror keeps me on the edge and half the time they’re never about a character

[@Rosemont104]

The "concept" seems to have replaced "the monster," and everyone has always remembered the monster, not the blank slate hero or shrieking damsel. The latter two have always been ciphers, either skins for the audience to wear or sexualized victims.

[@mungosmungo8694]

The monster became marketable. Their is a plethora of horror heroes/heroines that are very stand out. But everyone wants to be the villain

[@commandercaptain4664]

In the case of slashers, the monster is the concept, so not much has changed. The monster has now become the dynamic that drives characters' actions instead of a figure that can be plastered on a Funko pop.

[@Craxin01]

@@mungosmungo8694 Ash Williams!

[@erubin100]

@@Craxin01 Ash was the rare exception where the "hero" is more well known than the actual monsters they fight. In most other cases, of a hero/heroin is well known, they play second fiddle to the villain.

[@Craxin01]

@@erubin100 It helps that the way the Evil Dead franchise was structured was around the hero where most of the slasher\horror genre is structured around the monster\villain. All the big ones, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, Halloween were all built around the villains. Even older ones like The Mummy (1932), Dracula, and Frankenstein were all built around the monsters. I'm genuinely struggling to think of another horror movie or franchise that are structured around the heroes. I'm also struggling to think of one that you even really remember the hero\heroine. Any time I can they are all one-offs. Maybe Laurie Strode from Halloween, but that series has been so all over the place it's hard to know what is and what isn't canon to it.

[@Icebumi]

i love how you can consume this genre (or any genre/topic) and never really realize how things changed from, say, 20 years ago until some points it out. Now I'm like, oh yeah! That's absolutely true! Great video

[@santiagobauza4257]

I really liked Last Night in Soho precisely because it's not a concept that's easily explainable, and if I did then the charm of the movie would be given away. It's a great example of character driving the plot while also heading home some sharp societal critique, like the best horror films.

[@thewhitewolf58]

If its not easy to explain then your wasting the studios time.

[@santiagobauza4257]

@@thewhitewolf58 Maybe I'm wasting the studio's time, but not the director's, since Edgar Wright even told people not to watch the trailer when he uploaded it.

[@beansfebreeze]

I actually kind of disliked it because it explained literally the entire concept at the end and ruined basically all the mystery.

[@gindamusic1296]

@@santiagobauza4257 I stopped watching trailers for movies long ago. They give away way too much information.

[@fearlesslionmedia4232]

I like the videos with your voice over versus the other guy. Yours is authentic and genuine. It feels more like a discussion, whereas the other voice feels more like he's reading a script 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@aidanmahoney9865]

I think Art the Clown is an excellent slasher villain of recent years, and it’s interesting to watch what the next Terrifier movie will do with him

[@LukeLovesRose]

But they've all done that. The greatest example of a monster movie that is all about the main character is Aliens. Even the set design reflects how Ripley thinks and feels. Her thoughts and feelings as a character also reflect how the Queen feels when we meet her. So that's pretty awesome. But even great movies like The Thing emphasizes the concept which is being trapped in isolation with a monster more than the character of Macready. The horror classic from the master himself, Stanley Kubrick also cares more about the isolation of the characters than really drawing out any depth in the characters. Poltergeist and The Exorcist are among the few great exceptions because the majority of the movies were spent setting up the characters and their relationships. The greatest slasher movie ever made, Psycho does care more about Norman and his victims than any slasher since. But again, that's one of the very few exceptions

[@westzed23]

Well said.

[@LukeLovesRose]

@@westzed23 I have my moments

[@bezoticallyyours83]

Fair points

[@erubin100]

I would say Art the Clown from Terrifier is probably the closest thing we have to a modern horror villain. Could easily see building a major franchise off him.

[@arsiejackson2958]

Yawn. Art is an edgelord. All edge no point

[@bezoticallyyours83]

​@@arsiejackson2958His giant hefty bag says he has lots of edges and points. 😁

[@ruslankoller9891]

And it's the only good modern horror movie

[@erubin100]

@@ruslankoller9891 correction: the only good AMERICAN modern horror movie. There are actually quite a few good foreign horror films in recent years, you just have to hunt for them.

[@ruslankoller9891]

@@erubin100 well i've heard train to busan is very good, havent watched it yet

[@titus_philemon]

Tbh I prefer the "concept over character" model... Of course the perfect horror movie would be a balance between the two, but if to swing to one side, go concept all the way!! I mean, old movies aren't scary today (watching Jaws is just like watching the animal planet channel). Most old horror movies are petty much the same (a crazy dude w a weapon), so at least prioritizing "concept" expanded the horizon for horror movies & stories (even if sometimes a bad story).

[@felipeoa9474]

Even if movies like Birdbox or A quiet place aren't really good IMO, you can't say the idea isn't intriguing, after all we all watched all, even when they suck. But when they don't suck, like in Hereditary or The Babadook or It Follows or It comes at night, they are great.

[@piratatazmania]

In A Quiet Place, the concept is so important that after I got out of the theater I realized that I hadn't heard any of the names of the characters. Why? Because they can never talk to call each other by their names, because if they do it, they die.

[@kirstiecarriere9505]

I'm wondering if this time of expanding horror concepts will spawn remakes of these movies later with more character depth. When everybody kept complaining that the same movies were being remade, horror started making these new concept movies. Now with lack of character depth being the complaint we may get remakes with better characters. At least, one can hope.

[@devilhunterradio8395]

Those movies are so over hyped.

[@four-en-tee]

​@@devilhunterradio8395 Agreed

[@ButterCookie1984]

I like the statement about how the killer in a horror film had to stop being random, and began needing an identity.

[@darkwoods1954]

It Follows is the only modern horror that's stayed with me and felt it had a unique character of it's own.

[@Rebe8d89AH]

It Follows was so compelling for what is essentially a demonic STI. It genuinely got me thinking.

[@isguinedoe2186]

I think this is a really good way to explain the shift in horror movies over time: in the 80's, and the Universal monster movies of the 40's, concepts were reliably simple in their descriptions, but it meant that their films were better able to surprise you or scare you (this coupled with the fact that there were less marketing techniques to inevitably spoil a plot for audiences). Now, many horror movies like the Purge seem to fall flat because their high concepts make it seem like the film bites off more than it can chew; it may be so detailed that audiences don't know what to expect from such an idea, but then that means that it has more to live up to, and subsequently can't keep up.

[@Hidoidragon]

The problem with nowadays horror movies (and modern movies in general) is that they seem very cheap, everything is contrived. They can't create real tension without showing a CGI monster and they rely so much on cheap jump-scares. It's as if the directors today lack the basics, the basics of cinematography. There are many good ideas, but the execution is mostly terrible.

[@hahaihaveahandlenow]

In the age of the Internet, I think that truly creative horror has left the theatre. Analogue horror and other genres convey more entertaining horror than any movie I've heard of.

[@nonameman7114]

I’m surprised to hear someone talk about analog horror here, guess it’s starting to pick up attention. I feel like it will become the new slasher trend.

[@hahaihaveahandlenow]

@@nonameman7114 It also gives a new level to the horror, putting you in the front seat and immersing you in the aesthetics of the story. Creativity in this field is much more free as well, making a good horror story far more memorable.

[@nonameman7114]

@@hahaihaveahandlenow agreed it’s immersive and innovative in alot of ways, it’ll be interesting to see where the genre goes. I’ve seen some people say companies should make Netflix series out of the Analog horror content, but I feel that would ruin the appeal of the whole genre.

[@bezoticallyyours83]

It's okay I guess

[@shamuriwarrior]

I feel like Mike Flanagan is one of the writers/directors leading the change to a new era of horror. His movies and series are so good that they stand above the current horror films.

[@metaloverlord07]

The Haunting of Hill House is a masterpiece, pure and simple. I have never cared about characters in a film or series half as much as I did when watching that

[@littleoldmanboy]

Damn I just looked him up and he made Hush. That movie was fire.

[@williambyrd2173]

Nancy Callahan is from Sin City. Nancy Thompson is A Nightmare on Elm Street. Otherwise it's an interest viewpoint.

[@cavemancult1999]

Very interesting video, my friend and I were watching the first two Jeepers Creepers movies (yes, we're fully aware of what victor salva did and he's still a pos) but it led to a discussion on why horror villains just kinda fizzled out and that most horrors these days seem to follow a similar trend of being about ghosts/possessions or some sort of social-commentary (which is fine, I don't mind that in the slightest) but one of the things that got me into horror as a kid was the fact that they had iconic antagonistic (hell it doesn't even have to be antagonistic if we class characters like Ash Williams from the Evil Dead) characters, even the more lesser known characters were still amazing to see and after re-watching the J-Creepers movies I do hope they bring back this sorta horror style because I mean it might have been cheesy at times but it's still a very cool thing about horror. In fact I'd say it has had effects down the line through things like creepypastas (I'm not sure if they're still relevant), the whole SCP thing and hell even the creator of siren-head and his other works. so I mean it's not inherently dead and I reckon there'd still be people who enjoy this sort of stuff in each generation (as you referred to by comparing 80s slashers to 50s horror icons)

[@kit2770]

You know what was a pretty bonkers horror movie? "The Crazies" w Tomothy Olyphant. I guess that was a concept-over-character flick too, but I thought it was a roller coaster ride. And I don't normally enjoy horrors, but every now and then there's one that I like.

[@brandiyount5365]

I love The Crazies (but I still need to see Romero's original 🤔 lol). I thought it had a decent amount of character focus though. At least with a couple of them lol.

[@charliec8029]

I feel like his video is exclusively focused on blockbuster horror movies and I think there's plenty of great horror movies maybe they don't make a squillion dollars anymore but I don't think that matters so much. plus there are streaming sites exclusively for horror movies theses days so that might make it even tricker to push into the Netflixish model

[@skettismyname]

Art the Clown is the modern day horror villain imo!

[@jsum33]

Art the Clown feels to me to be the most recent antagonist that stands out. It's almost like that hack caught lightning in a bottle by hiring arguably one of the greatest castings of all time in DHT. You may or may not agree, but thanks for letting get in my 2 cents in.

[@gregsky01]

While I agree that for the most part, old horror was better, I’m not sure I agree that the greats of the past were particularly character driven either. I mean sure, Halloween, Psycho, A Nightmare on Elm Street, you can make a case for it having great characters that feel like real people as well as the main villains being iconic but then you take the likes of Friday the 13th or any other slasher from that era. Every character is expendable and one dimensional and Jason Vorhees (I know I’ll get a lot of heat for this) along with so many other slasher villains was just a cookie cutter rip off of Michael Myers. Give them a mask and a sharp object and make them superhuman and unkillable. Hell, it worked then because people went to see these movies not expecting it would be a great character piece but that it would be a splatter fest. Critics used to spoil some of the most graphic kills to try put people off seeing the movies and the fans would think “that sounds awesome, I wanna see that” and go anyway. In that case, you could say that these movies were concept driven as they contributed to the video nasty trend of that decade. Another interesting point when talking about modern horror is IT or Stranger Things. IT was a based on the Stephen King novel that while not perfect, really did focus heavily on the characters and the writers of the movie (the first one anyway) really understood this as the kids are funny, they’re likeable, you can relate to them on some level and it really services the movie. Stranger Things does a similar thing with their characters which it’s all the better for because as great as the concept is, I don’t think it would be as good had we not cared about the characters so much. I agree in terms of the purge and even Get Out, Us or A Quiet Place to a degree but I think concept over characters has always been a big thing in horror. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just the type of genre it is.

[@mungosmungo8694]

Not a fan of the term cookie cutter, but the train of thought is sound. Agreed

[@Osric24]

I think what you're getting at has validity. Especially your last line about concept being the core of most horror. I think what Nerdstalgic was tapping into was how execution of concept has varied over time. Execution of concept used to be character driven, especially hero and villain driven. Now it's setting driven, where systems or scenarios are in place to provide the threat, rather than a single monster or villain. I think part of it is how American culture is becoming more aware of just how screwed up its own systems have become.

[@adammartinez8061]

⁠@@Osric24 And I’m defense of modern horror movies(I’m optimistic), everything was different back then it was pre-technology era. Since some of the actors or actresses of horror movies lived in that era, they were able to adapt to how things were worked, since they grew up around those times. Since Technology came around in the 2000s, how things worked were Changed including concept . Some of the actors and actresses seen in the modern horror movies that the commenter mentioned had yet to be born….well more specifically the child actors or actresses….since they grew up in the 2000s, they had to adapt how concept worked. Same goes with the the older actors and actresses, Although some of the actors and actresses seem in the modern horror movies were only little kids during the 80s and 90s…and had yet to start their careers as actors or actresses…. So To summarize….with how technology came, concept of horror movies had to change and adapt to now using technology for horror movies…but if concept of horror movies had remained the same as to how it was in the 90s and 80s, do you think people would have grown tired of it?

[@robman2k7]

I like horror films like the void, creep, vhs that bring characters back into the genre but can still keep it fresh

[@goldibollocks]

The new horror style of „interesting concept over character“ is basically the clickbaitification of movies and fits perfectly into the age of the internet. Reading a movie plot summary of „one day a year everything is legal“ has the same effect as reading a clickbaity yt-title of „this dude ate 500 oranges in 20 seconds, guess what happened to his checking account“: It makes your mind immediately go „hey, I think this and that will happen!“ and then you watch the movie or click the video to see if you were right to get that sweet sweet hit of gratification. Edit: that sounds more negative than it was meant to be 😂

[@ChrisPeteG]

I think a hidden factor of the first IT movie being so successful(highest grossing horror film worldwide)...falls onto the fact that they had Pennywise as a true, characterized villain in the film, with a GREAT performance from Skarsgard. They embraced that.

[@davidrivas8005]

We got Art the clown in recent years and in less recent years Sam from Trick R Treat and the strangers front the Strangers. But for the most part this is true.

[@jeremiahar2704]

As above so below is a MUST if you want a phenomenal movie with great character and great story!

[@WhirlingMusic]

Art the Clown is the modern horror villain as of right now. If you're reading this and you haven't heard of him then you will eventually because I have a good feeling after the second movies drops this Fall, he is going to be sitting with the big boys like Freddy, Jason, Ghostface, etc.

[@georgecheng6197]

I think it follows has a great post modern boogie man slasher stalker vibe going that show concept and characterization of a horrifying villian in the vain of jason or even the terminator

[@bobmaster698]

modern horror movies value money over anything change my mind

[@jamjarworks]

Being a '90s baby, a lot of the big boys had a pretty expansive repertoire by the time I was browsing the Blockbuster shelves, so third-grade me got plenty of nightmares from VHS covers alone, none moreso than from Chucky- his shiny, soulless eyes and creepy smile coupled with the idea of a toy coming to life to kill me gave me a deep-rooted case of the heebie-jeebies. It was only this last October that I finally sat down and stomached the series whose main villain had discomforted me for years, and I had an absolute blast. I'm going to be watching the season finale of the TV series with a friend later today, and may well be checking out more slashers even before next October- if it turned out I enjoyed the hell out of a character who would make me flinch anytime I heard his name, who knows how much fun I'll get out of the rest of the '80s horror pantheon? Thinking a bit more on it, there's a 40-year timespan between the 1940s and the 1980s, and another 40 years between the 1980s and the 2020s...sounds like we're due for another era of iconic horror antagonists within the decade! I'd love to see if modern filmmakers can take the lessons that both brands of horror from the past few decades have given us and see if they can create something...or someONE...or some THING really special. That part at the end about art evolving was unexpected, but very welcome to hear! Thanks for the video- lots of stuff I enjoyed in here.

[@loganlabach4227]

I like eraserhead I think it’s scarier than a quiet place could ever be!

[@REE-Animation]

The best horror movie I have seen the last 10 years, is one from 2010 called “Don’t be afraid of the dark” Phenomenal movie in every aspect! 👌

[@spearhead7777]

As someone who enjoys monster and slasher films I have to say concept horror is really boring to me. It plods along with characters either not knowing anything is happening, exploring the amoralities world or doing something that we know will fail because we are nowhere close to the ending of the film. One of the advantages of Monster and slasher horror was the villain perspective that could be used to offset the scenes of the protagonists. Now everything is hyper focused on the protagonists and as such the entire movie has to be carried by them and their exploration of the abnormal element. This should result in good protagonists but they often lack people to play off of while they wait to get scared or explore the unknown.

[@ThatWeirdKid2010]

No wonder I have an infatuation with Art the Clown from the Terrifier series.

[@jobansand]

Modern Western films in general have this problem. Valuing flashy stuff over people.

[@Esther_Herbst]

I can't even tell apart Bird Box, Quiet Place abd Don't Breath most of the time.

[@Blast2224]

While a Quiet Place is good, I don't find it to be the masterpiece a lot of people view it as. The concept has to rely on the ignorance and stupidity of those who know the world. We quickly realize that in the world of a Quiet Place, loud noise equals death. It's not a hard concept. And yet, things like knowing a toy makes noise with batteries, HAVING BABIES DURING THE APOCALYPSE REQUIRES SOUND, and keeping family members from knowing what you're working on as a way to PROTECT them are 3 very simple things that we even as audience members can figure out quickly. The toy incident at the beginning was one thing; it had shock value. But the father witholding his work from his daughter HAD NO REASON AND COULD HAVE SAVED LIVES. The parents making another baby (out of what we can assume is own selfish desire and not necessarily mistake) endangered everyone around them. Even the father screaming and sacrificing himself; THROW an object. Make a noise that's in the OTHER opposite direction. Everything in a Quiet Place had to be done with the most challenging route and it's exhuasting with repeated views. This is why the sequel pales in comparison.

[@PeterGriffin11]

I think the 2021 CandyMan movie is a good example of valuing a concept or maybe a message I should say over it's characters and over being a scary or horror movie.

[@sajunbecker3275]

I couldn't agree more. The original Candyman is one of my absolute favorite movies.

[@thewhitewolf58]

Candyman is racist and a maga favorite

[@sajunbecker3275]

@@thewhitewolf58Get outta here. Candyman (1992) is a horror movie about the legacy of racism and generational trauma.

[@REE-Animation]

Candyman 2021 was flat and hollow. The old one is a masterpiece…

[@PeterGriffin11]

@@thewhitewolf58 I don't know if I'd personally call it racist but I do think the movie took the issue of police brutality and dumbed it down to all cops specifically white ones are bad. The movie just came off as pretentious & kinda preachy to me. It would be nice to see mainstream media cover other problems surrounding police brutality like how victims who aren't black usually don't get much attention, or how it affects the officers themselves or how some protests end up turning into violent riots but the movie did none of that and instead just gave a message that doesn't really add anything new to the conversation. Although I guess I can understand why you'd think that.

[@inshan3st3r]

The birds is my favorite horror film I can't name the characters. Jaws debuted the blockbuster (arguable if the shark is a concept or chatecter), and same. Unique concepts are more valuable in horror because it is about scaring you in a unique way. It is my internal emotions, not my ability to empathize with characters in a complex way, only a more universal one. The charecters are often not feeling the dread the audience feels until it is too late.

[@felipemorales5512]

what about Candyman? an example where the concept can't work without a distinctive character

[@AntonioReyes-ov7vl]

I think the Purge was subject to budget limits, one location filming and no lead are evidence of this but they built the world pretty well so the sequel was able to fit into this world and not miss a beat. With a bigger budget they decided to go with more locations.

[@bestlaptop_psn]

Damn the 1980s was really the best and can never be topped entertainment wise

[@MissAmazanda]

There is a horror book that was written back in 1992 by a guy named Patrick Whalen called "deathwalker" and my gosh do they need to make it into a movie!! I just read it and imagined what an awesome film could be made of it....

[@LadyAstarionAncunin]

Who is Nancy Callahan? Certainly not the number 1 final girl in all of horror film history, Nancy Thompson.

[@jakek1735]

"When was the last time you saw a new, truly great horror villain?" Jigsaw. Fight me.

[@PickyPaige]

And that was 20 years ago! When he says Modern he means 2010 onwards at the very least!

[@bphifer]

Seems the concept needs strong characters to work. John Krasinski was drawn to the script because of the father role and sacrifice (vague spoiler) for his children. Get Out and Us depend on strong character development and performances as well

[@rottensquid]

This is really well done! Great commentary, and I especially appreciate that you don't fall into the trap of oversimplifying the issue, or claiming that things were better "back in the day." I think the current problem of underwritten characters facing a high concept partly stems from the classic films that are currently held as the gold standard, like "The Thing" or "Alien." Of course, those films had decent characters, possibly better rendered than the ones in films like "A Quiet Place." But what's important to note about those films is that character doesn't drive the stories. Who Kurt Russell's McCreedy is as a person doesn't really drive the plot, beyond the generic "he's Batman levels of determined" hero trope of action film. And so, to put that film on a pedestal is to take the particular thing it does well and elevate it to the last word in horror plot structure. But I think this is one of those inevitable dynamics of film, because of how films get made. Selling any film on a clever log line like that of "A Quiet Place" is easy. Selling it on its rich characterizations is harder. It's easy to recognize a good log line. That's what they're for. A good log line is money in the bank, as proven by "The Purge," "Taken," and dozens of other mediocre films that sold on their premise alone. Conversely, a film based on characterization actually needs to be good. Dozens of films tried to replicate the master craft of characterization that drove "The Silence of the Lambs," and to my knowledge, none succeeded. At the end of the day, this is the reason behind the truism that "99% of everything is crap." "Not bad" is easier to recognize. With a clever premise, you're already halfway there. But the hardest thing of all is to get from "not bad" to excellence. And you can't get there by simply looking at previous examples of excellence and copying their formula.

[@Times365up]

And like all great monster flicks there's that connection with "Creatures." A certain detail of physiological exposition to share what this creature can do to an unsuspecting victim. Details clearly stating why it kills. Characterization. If you write, begin with "WANTS & NEEDS "

[@Craxin01]

I have to say, ever since The Blair Witch Project, horror movies just bore the snot out of me. Concept isn't nearly enough to sustain a movie. The greatest flops of all time were all concept and ZERO execution. A movie needs a character or characters that you can understand and identify with. Concept is good for a pitch, but can't sustain a plot. The most fun I've had with horror in a long time is the USA\Syfy show Chucky. There was concept, serial murderer's soul in a doll murdering people, but there was character, heart, depth. It's built on a 33-year-old property, so it had already had an established plot to build on, but it still works. I'd watch one episode of Chucky over ALL the "high concept" horror schlock that's been churned out for the last 20+ years.

[@motor4X4kombat]

Dolls aren't scary piss off. And Chucky without brad dourif is not fun anymore.

[@PhantomBones101]

What irks me about what you said is that you're right. It irks me because this means upcoming slashers like Scream, the next Saw movie, or even the likes of a new Halloween movie on the horizon may all be doomed to fail. And for me that sucks because while I love the high concept horror movies of today I still love a good slasher. Slashers can give way to iconic and fascinating villains that with time and good sequels you can find yourself more excited to see than the victims they hunt.

[@darthtace]

I think that, while part of the reason for the shift from monster to concept is the marketing landscape, it might be even more important to consider that horror, like comedy, grows stale with repetition. One theoretical model of humor is that humor is created when expectations or norms are violated in a benign manner. Horror, or a fair amount of it, is just that, except not benign. They can even overlap, as seen frequently in Ari Aster's works (You know you laughed at that scene in Midsommar. You know which scene I'm talking about). If you see a violation a second time, it has less effect. And the more repetitions, the more numb you become. I think that's the main reason that horror goes through fads: each generation has to be inoculated to a brand of horror before a new one comes to take its place. And it seems like it might be cyclical. It started with the low budget German expressionist silent films, then monster films, then psychological horror inspired by Psycho and the rest of Hitchcock's catalogue. Then Blood Feast brings back low budget films, then "monsters" again in the slasher flicks, and now back around to psychological, or "concept," based films. I'm not sure if this pattern will persist, but it seems like a decent working theory.

[@lonellfletcher]

Um, in Don't Breathe Stephen Lang's character is simply referred to as the blind man. He has no name to remember.

[@garethmiller8932]

I guess this video explores the angle of comercialisation and what gets the next horror script greenlit and how things become homogenised to the time as my horror experience and why I love horrors has nothing to do with background, character, or how memorable the story is. It's all about 'The Feel'. If I watch a horror movie makes me forget to blink and breathe and I start to get anxiety because the film does an amazing job of controlling the pacing and tension then I don't care if I don't remember the villain's name. A Quiet Place and Lights Out are amazing horror films and I don't remember anyone's name. Except Diana. I hate Diana.

[@jacobwright5542]

I've had a chip on my shoulder about new horror releases since around 2000, although, some of the really recent stuff has actually been really good- not just scary but also really good just as films per se

[@Matt-zu2lu]

Personally modern horror movies really don’t interest me. There was just something special about those old school 70’s-90’s horror movies that modern horror movies just don’t capture

[@unironicallydel7527]

todays horror movies are very 'kid/teen' focused. Which is why they arent scary. Its child horror. There are some that HAVE worked, and have been scary, but most are just dull and lifeless. ex 'selfieman' or the 'slenderman' adaptation. Modern horror is literally for babies.

[@theneonchimpchannel9095]

They need to make a movie about Chop Top from Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2.

[@jakcooper1942]

I agree with what you said but who is nacy Callihan it's it's Thompson

[@gafchrist]

Been waiting for this Nerdstalgic episode🙏🙏

[@gafchrist]

@@CSM100MK2 homie says "yeah sure" ☠️

[@Jimbo1221]

@@CSM100MK2 ratio xD :eeee3333

[@biguy617]

I always wondered why Stephen King stories make movies but other writers like him aren’t made into film or TV. Why aren’t other writes like him equally as popular to make movies aren’t as chosen?

[@Mclucasrv]

That was one thing I like in the first 2 Conjuring was characters,I like the couple.

[@SliderFury1]

Agreed. They play off each other so well, great chemistry, great acting. While I think the first Conjuring was a tab better than the second overall, their dynamic was even better and more intense in the second one, and it's what brought the third one up from being not good to decent.

[@skproductions8495]

the man from Dont Breathe is literally listed as The Blind Guy lol

[@robertobuatti7226]

I totally agree, modern horror needs to re-evaluate itself to see what worked prior and what they can do to make horror villains and leading central characters memorable. The last time a horror villain was truly memorable for me was Freddy in New Nightmare which they made him much more of a sinister entity and the last memorable leading final girl was Sydney Prescott from Scream. High concept only works if we the audience are invested in the characters and we care about them and what happens to them without that a film is just generic.

[@jedediahcoulbourne1791]

I think the "newest" readily identifiable villain I remember is Pinhead

[@TheMovieBuff96]

1:23 "When was the last time you saw a new, truly great, horror villain?" When I watched Malignant in the theatre in September. It's been a few months now, and I still vividly remember Gabriel's name, appearance, and unique weapon.

[@FookMi69]

Same.

[@Applepoisoneer]

Man, there have been so few modern horror movies that I've enjoyed. Don't misunderstand, I absolutely adore horror. I write it, I read it, I watch it. But this whole Blumhouse trend just needs to die. Part of it is this gimmick where, if you make a sound, you die. Or as I, as a person with a visual impairment like to call them, "Fuck Blind People: THE MOVIE!" I can certainly appreciate high concept, reality-exposing horror. But sometimes I want to watch a bunch of sexy teens get slaughtered. Sometimes I want to watch a villain or slasher or whatever, who actually has some style, and isn't just a heavy-handed social construct. I know this comment is 10 years long already, but let me put it to you this way. Nightmare on Elm Street 2 is probably one of the best interpretations of what being gay must be like for a man in a family or community that just doesn't get it, and therefore, can't explain it to him. Gay men, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. That said, it takes an approach that doesn't just spell it out for you. It's there, but there's also a lot of other stuff going on, and they don't stop the movie to point at it. If NOES were a movie made today, I feel like we'd get an almost Dahr Mahn-like break in the movie where someone goes, "So you see, Freddy represents intrusive thoughts and..." Does anyone need that?

[@alfisdrake]

You can have both, just find a talented writer. Ari Aster does an excellent job at it. Still, the best writer, director, and editor of character-first suspense/terror/horror movies and tv-shows nowadays have to be Mike Flanagan. Hill House, Midnight Mass, Dr. Sleep, Gerald's Game, just to name a few, are all character-driven with horror undertones. There's a reason Stephen King wants to work with him. If you look outside the US, Yeon Sang-ho (Train to Busan) and Bong Joon-ho (Parasite) are also great examples. Feel free to disagree.

[@boyboilNEO9055]

I feel like a lot people of horror movies blend together if not in concept then in tone, but horror games don’t have this problem

[@metalevilution4565]

I miss the horror icon to be honest. Good stories are important too but a great villian always got me invested more. In the modern age there is still potential with the likes of Art The Clown and The Collector. \m/

[@bridgegraffiti9830]

It was Nancy Thompson, NOT Nancy Callahan.

[@rodrigozombie]

I think it's a shift. I'm just happy to be a fan of the one genre that doesn't seem to ever show signs that it's going away so I embrace new ideas

[@boigercat]

while not a horror Chaos walking is a prime example of having a Concept and nothing else

[@vodkaffee4856]

man i was so dissapointed by get out, i laughed more than in the rise of skywalker, i wanted good horror and is shot like a comedy

[@brookiemonster258]

Im just stewing because you said Nancy Callaghan, its Thompson.

[@aprilchardy1]

Art the Clown is the best modern horror villain.

[@rudyrobles8294]

1:38 the first use of the word "iconic". That took longer than usual for this channel.

[@wanderingcat308]

Bro, just say you want a new iconic horror villain. You don't need 9 minutes to say that

[@dylanfletcher03]

The only modern horror villain I can think of is Red from Us. But even then, modern horror is focusing on the villain being us, man. Rather man vs man, which yes still occurs, it captures man vs self, making most modern horror even more terrifying, showing the true monster and terror is in ourselves. But yes, no match for classic monster villains.

[@WhirlingMusic]

Terrifier/Art the Clown is the modern horror villain as of right now. There is a sequel coming this October. And if that is as good as the first then be you'll be hearing more about this villain in the horror community.

[@danninmatthews5640]

1:55 Invisible man. **Shows 1940s Phantom of the Opera**

[@sloshed-rat]

Oculus was the last horror film I was moved by... and that came out 8 years ago.

[@Me4u2c42]

Antlers was an amazing movie. Only horror I e liked in a long long long time.

[@WhirlingMusic]

Agreed.

[@phewiss3066]

Funnily enough, it's the oppisite for horror games. They focus too much on making a marketable characters than making a good game.

[@WhirlingMusic]

Callisto Protocol is going to be amazing.

[@misterxar]

I don't remember the guy from Don't Breathe because it was a stupid ass movie.