How much money did this Musician/YouTuber lose on a tour?! Mary Spender lays it all out.

[@JimChabucos]

I want to expand on some of the comments here about online presence and IRL draw being two different things (I agree 100%). I'm a big fan of Mary's KZbin channel and deeply appreciate her openness about so many music and music-related topics. BUT....while she is a definitely skilled musician, I don't much care for the music she creates and would likely pass on an opportunity to see her play live. I have no idea what percent of her fan base might feel the same way, but when I watched her postmortem video and learned that she sold ~60% of available tickets, I wondered if she overestimated the % of her channel fans that would be likely to come to her shows. I can imagine that is really difficult to suss out until you've actually taken the leap and done it. So good on you, Mary, and thanks for sharing. And thanks, Mike, for your perspectives as well.

[@CheveeDodd]

This is awesome. Thanks for the inside look! Merry Christmas!

[@timhinton]

You made an awesome point, social media fans do not necessarily equate to fans that will come and watch you in person.

[@davehall8584]

Mary Spender is wonderful.....very interesting to hear your take....

[@paulrobertson3326]

Thanks for this post. It tagged on to Mary's your video or I would not have see. It is a great support and helpful post. While I have no intention of touring (way too old and unskilled for that). It was informative. Thanks again.

[@jgni5715]

This video contains more useful info than a lot of websites and articles out there regarding touring. Great stuff Mike!

[@RoeShamBoe]

Online presence doesn't mean anything. Remember 'Snakes on a Plane'? That's the lesson content creators need to understand. Online hype takes zero effort so it's actual value is zero.

[@MikeRivkees]

Oh my god, what an amazing use of Snakes on a Plane hahaha I mean my band fills venues but we’re having such a hard time building online hype haha.

[@chrisbose]

bro, that was an amazing road worthy analysis of what she did, i'm a geezer, 54, in 2023, crushed out 5 months in western canada, 5 provinces and 50 shows, booked it myself, all done with pick up bands and no merch, but in the prairies of canada we had a blast, packing 100 - 250 rooms, based on our name, horse funeral band, we always made money in the prairies of canada, despite long distance traveling, but i know how to tour, there's always a band house to crash in at a university and i always sleep in the tub, lol, no crabs or bedbugs, but we were always depressed coming back to british columbia because it is so expensive to tour here, gas ,food, and it's mountainous as fuck, so you burn through more fuel than the prairies, british columbia cost of living is also so brutal that the people can only afford one show a month and it's gotta be a banger, so new bands have to fight against that. it's a fucked up situation.

[@Apostrophe65]

I watched Mary Spender break down the cost of the tour and I think a lot of the issue is that over half of her KZbin fanbase live in the U.S.. Opposite your situation she would probably do better here.

[@markhathaway9456]

Traveling costs skyrocketed in America in the 1980s. It's really difficult to do any live stuff. Internet distribution has to be the more efficient path. Mary is doing that pretty well.

[@eximusic]

When you have an organic band, you don't pay musicians - you're all in it together.

[@brentradshaw5057]

What??? Do you not believe you should pay your friends? If you were in a band and nobody else is getting paid, I really hope you don't expect a check either 😂

[@LegsON]

It's not easy to get an organic band, luck plays a huge role. Have you been playing in a band? It's such a pain in the ass sometimes...

[@eximusic]

@@brentradshaw5057 "Bands" share the expenses. They don't pay each other. Simple concept.

[@eximusic]

@@LegsON First it requires you making music people actually want to hear. Then it might require you opening for a more popular band. I discovered two really great bands/artists in the past few years when they opened for the acts I paid to see. Cherry Glazerr opened for Slowdive (90s shoegaze band) and I was forever a fan. She was headlining her tours right after that. Also saw a band call Prism Bitch open for Built to Spill. .They're slowly getting some attention - but doing their own tours now. While both bands have a youtube presence, they're not trying to get music fans by "talking" on youtube. People have this ridiculous idea you can build fanbases on youtube by doing other things than playing your music. I myself was in the 1980s LA punk scene, toured the country, put out independent albums and still get small royalties. It was called the DIY movement. But it was a "scene" with a following and you had to earn people's attention by playing live - a lot. And traveling and sleeping in vans. Eating food from grocery stores, not restaurants. People who actually attend shows and concerts find out about new acts at shows and concerts - or independent radio (almost gone today, but LA has it).

[@lazvt8469]

Great vid!! Thanks. Love Mary...amazing multi-talent and person. One of a kind.

[@bobcole612]

Her tax issue was the ticket resellers didn’t collect VAT (Value Added Tax), essentially sales tax at the point of sale. Mary said that was largely an oversight on her part, so she had to pay it out of her end. Expensive lesson, took a lot of guts for her to share it.

[@victotronics]

But even if she hadn't made that mistake, it would only be a 20 percent margin. That's not a lot of wiggle room.

[@paulyates101]

She’s touring like a rockstar and not like any other band in the uk doing 150 people venues.

[@69spook]

Nice to pretend.....🙂

[@marshalllarson]

Great content! I am one of Mary's followers. That's how you came up on my feed.

[@timringgenberg2844]

I was on the road in the early 80's and we used a booking agent and they did a decent job but routing was not always the best. We always stayed 3 to a room. We got paid by the week and there was no extra money for food. We survived by living on one or two meals a day and living cheaply at home. I did it for three years and I managed to come out on the other side with out being broke. But there was little money to be made. But the band got really tight and eventually got within a hair of being signed with a major label after they put the band up in New York for a week and cut a demo in their studio with their engineers and producers. I have heard of many bands going broke going on tour and doing an album because of all of the cost involved. Still, I made many friends while on the road and am still close with them today. For that I am thankful.

[@MarkyShaw]

Great take on the whole process. It's a heck of a learning experience. Hope people don't get too discouraged by everything and think of creative ways to make it work. I love the idea of going to campsites and hanging. That's brilliant! 2 birds one stone IMO.

[@danieledwarddesoto]

I think the real takeaway here is that she is not popular enough to go on tour. She doesn't have a big enough draw even after planning for a year and promoting her shows. She should start where she lives using backing tracks and building a following before going all over the UK. She should not be paying her manager unless he is booking gigs and doing all the work that it sounds like she did. And after losing $12,000 she is the last person who should give advice on how to go on tour.

[@LegsON]

Wasn't she a local performer already?!

[@Spritsailor]

Johnny Rawles who is the cousin of R&B artist Lou Rawles would tour smaller clubs throughout the Midwest. The smallish blues club he played at in S. Ohio along the Ohio River is an example of where he played. To save money on tour he gets local musicians to back him. A drummer buddy of mine asked me to fill in on bass because the other bass player was sick with the flu. We played a geographic area of about 500 sq miles. Beyond that area he had other musicians. There were three core people and the rest were pick-up bands. I made about $150 per gig is all and I heard he was getting $1500 - $2000 per show.

[@jerrymckenzie1858]

At the end of the day, not enough people showed up.

[@lazvt8469]

Reminds me of left-handed guitarist...always whining about not enough inventory. They whined to Paul R Smith about making a PRS SilverSky SE's for lefties...he originally said no way...lefties don't buy guitars. Two years later PRS gives in...big announcement...and soon/recently....SS SE lefties come out in lots of great colors. ...WOW!! Then, within a month or so....huge discounts on lefty SS SE lefties (no such pattern with righty SE's). Lefties talk smack online...but when it comes to 'showing up' and buying what they clammer for.....crickets. I hate lefties. Oh, I'm a lefty....LOOOOVE my lefty PRS SS SE ...got on sale, great deal, free PLEK.

[@Diabolik771]

Props to any act out there touring, it's tough. I have money now and always buy merch to help bands out I like.

[@MikeRivkees]

We are literally just raveling tshirt salesmen 😂 You’re the best.

[@Payne2view]

Mary did support tours before this one. I think the "Tour Course" is a lessons learned thing.

[@filteredjc4653]

Her video was a good breakdown of the reality of touring. And probably a lot of lessons learned, which she was kind enough to explain to her audience. And she got a lot of advice in the comments from old hands. If you look at the losses from touring that some huge bands have taken, 12K is a drop in the bucket. If she enjoyed it, well, it was basically a very expensive holiday.

[@bobcole612]

Todd Rundgren had interesting observation, about Meat Loaf. “If you’re willing to to go out there and shamelessly flog your product, every night and repeatedly hitting the same markets, you will invariably build and audience, if you have anything of interest.” I think that applies here.

[@Civilian2.0]

I'm guessing her Company, Mary Spender LTD, lost £12,000, and not her personal bank account. There's no way you would risk your own savings on such a risky endeavour. For such a 'savvy' business woman, who spent a year planning this tour, she didn't do a very good job. Venues with no PA, having to rent back-up instruments, flying in a bass player from another country, giving her band £30 a day each for food on top of their wages??? The list goes on and on.

[@ronaldmalcolm5609]

Yeah, I understand that it would seem incongruent with expectations that someone with millions of KZbin views would only sell fewer than 2,000 tickets, but those KZbin views are free and don't require the viewer to extricate their behinds from their comfy chair. Furthermore, many people are grappling with inflation and uncertainty.

[@MisterTee]

Spender is a fine example of an online act. No real zip or charisma to her as an entertainer

[@cancelbubble6535]

How much will she make from her "How Much Money I Lost On Tour" video? That's part of the tour income.

[@CraiggaeShark]

how do you keep your room so clean

[@Rwn819]

The music she plays is so generic, i wonder why would anyone pay money to hear it live. I mean maybe some of her youtube subs.

[@69spook]

Exactly....

[@TheStringDojo]

I hope she finds your vid, I love Mary, I think she is awesome but her music recordings are bad bro, but the video improvs are really good, she is awesome, and your take on it is really grounded, thanks, I will just keep my music to myself then, jajajajajja

[@garyshepherd9226]

I could have told her she would lose money - she is not popular enough in truth. But she also made mistakes.

[@stephenshoihet2590]

Not a fan of Mary's, i got tired of her stuff and didn't watch her video but i enjoyed your video and your great advice. There are a few musicians I love who are big in certain areas or certain circles and are well known on YT but when they come to the small western Canadian city i live in, they play very small venues and most people I talk with have no idea who they are. Running a successful business is hard, doing it in an artistic field is even harder. I think it's spot on that there's a huge difference between internet musicians and IRL musicians and it's just the reality that no matter how many followers you have online, they don't carry over and you really have to start over and build up your IRL audience.

[@joea9608]

Loses 15K on a tour and she sells a course on how to do it... Only in the matrix

[@MCSA210]

I love watching her YT videos. . . Just not a fan of her music. Having said that. I hope she keeps at it and.makes a profit next tour.

[@alfsmith4936]

I respect her for looking after her musicians so well and I guess it feels more like a real band, traveling together but she could've got session players to travel to every show themselves for £100 and £25 fuel costs a gig . She spent a lot on last minute advertising too. I guess she got a good video out of it though, so hopefully it makes her a few quid.

[@Civilian2.0]

She also got a new course out of it, that she tries to sell at the end of the video - The independent musicians guide to touring. A cynic would say it's almost like she set herself up to fail?🤔

[@ericgriffin120]

People are always the biggest cost in business. Music is no different. Period. Fees, food, hotel all add up. She should have used backing tracks for the bassist and the second guitarist.

[@glenlapwing8468]

She’s not the only one that lost money going on tour, most band’s & songwriters lose money nowadays. If somebody new in a band tells you how much money they made on their first go round, they’re lying their asses off. Even a lot of the bigger bands you see at events are probably still living in their parent’s basement. Unless you have record company backing, don’t waste your time & money planning a tour

[@cjbaker9703]

She’s awesome

[@WoodyNWUK]

Biggest stumbling block seemed to be ticket sales. She said she sold 63% of tickets. Had she sold 100%, and not made the VAT / pricing mistake she'd probably have broken even or even made some money. Which does emphasise the IRL / online presence dichotomy. The following she has I'd have thought she'd easily sell tickets, again depending on how that following breaks down for UK based followers. Was it poor venue choice? Bad nights to play the gigs? Who knows. I do know the gigs she did I could have got to I couldn't get time off work to go to, and couldn't make the travel time if i didnt. Things are just very expensive here. Hotels, even budget ones arent cheap. Fuel for the van is ridiculous. The wages for the musicians wasn't a lot for 13 days plus rehearsal days. Barely over minimum wage really. Ticket sales and venues seem to have been what caused the shortfall really.

[@alfsmith4936]

Her biggest stumbling block was looking after the musicians she used too well, instead of paying them £100 per gig and telling them to find their own transport/accommodation/food. She's too nice for her own good.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

@alfsmith4936 Nobody worth hiring would accept that deal.

[@ritchiewolveshead.5950]

Hi Mike a great share , I ve just watched Mary story / video , and I put this reply , to show being a creative artist, has never been easy ! I remeber seeing a interview with Roger Daltrey (THE WHO ) on you tube , saying the band where called into see their accountant in the early 1970s , when they had completed 2 tours of the USA (including WOODSTOCK ) and being told the band had grossed 500,000 dollars , but the downside was their outgoings was 850,000 dollars , to which the accountant said Welll what are you going to do about it ??????????????. keith moon reply was to strip naked and gave the accountant ,all his cloths and said thats everything I ve got ! and walked out of the office totaly naked !!!. he then returned 10 minutes later (still naked ) and asked can anybody lend me £5 , to get home , as all the taxi drivers refused to take him as he had NO MONEY on him ! yes its a wonderful life going on the road ! I have a friend from the old days , who was in a band called SIMON DUPREE and the big sound !and they had a number 1 hit with a song called KITES ,their pianist got a injured hand , and they needed to get someone in for a month , a guy turned up called Reg Dwight to stand in for a tour , and he got payed his share , which turned out to be, £30 a week , luckily a few years later he changed his name to ELTON JOHN ! thanks Mike for highlighting her story , its a lesson for us all ! seasons greeting and sharring the dream of , love and a peaceful world for ALL ! ritchie .

[@ShiningHourPop]

The tax in the UK is called VAT (value added tax) which is 20%. It is the equivalent of Sales Tax in the USA.

[@FamousByFriday]

It is interesting that she’s put together a course on it, yet isn’t really successful at it yet. …and I’m sure she has a lot more going for her than my band would.

[@ois-jy9kl]

From experience touring in my 20'... Whe add the advantage of being able to sell CD's

[@mitchpalmer5116]

I admire Mary Spender. She's real talented and her KZbin videos are excellent but I gotta be honest her original material isn't that good. I think she'd do better with outside songwriters.

[@69spook]

I've listened to her songs & they are average open mike singer song fodder that you can hear on a regular basis around the UK. Would I pay to see her. Nah. There are a lot better performers at open mikes with original material for free.

[@VideoHero]

paid too much? 17 days with her (incl 13 on road + 4 days rehearsals) 7997 /3 musicians /17 = £156 (14hr spent with her) day !

[@davehall8584]

that's prob less than minimum wage?

[@alfsmith4936]

@@davehall8584 No it isn't. £150 a day, plus £30 a day expenses, plus free accommodation, plus free food/drink from the rider is good money. She looked after her musicians when she couldn't really afford to.

[@davehall8584]

@alfsmith4936 I mean..it's not a lot of money for a gifted musician....but yes....Mary gave them as much as she could possibly dare to pay..more than she could afford...bless her.

[@Naniamania3]

Great video. Yes…if you can find a reliable and knowledgeable booking agent, it’s worth the cut.

[@cameronpatrickscott]

Got a nice way about you, subbed, seasons greetings.

[@LevWaxScreams]

I’ve seen a few of her videos and I didn’t even know she had a band! No joke I’m not being mean but I think she should consider mentioning her band and playing a little clip of something she’s trying to push before her videos start.

[@angermanagementstudios]

Mary’s vids have shown us all what most of us have known for a long time. Touring is completely f*cked unless you’re one of the world’s biggest artists. It’s a good job we all have the completely fair and above board industry of streaming to earn our royalties from eh…

[@MikeRivkees]

😂😂😂

[@nunninkav]

There is more than just a van, you need to find campgrounds and bring a nice bed roll or inflatable mattress. You can get an RV space for $50 for the bus and sleep the rest in the tents. he says it around 10:00 as I was writing this.

[@Sonny-lx7je]

I think it also depends on what the economy is like too especially if your a small fry musician , I mean Kier Starmer is probably not helping the economy at this very moment. Best of luck to Mary .

[@bobcole612]

An atlas and a coffee cup Five pickers in an old Dodge truck Heading out to Houston for a show on Saturday night. Alan Jackson-Chasing That Neon Rainbow.

[@teddnagurski5583]

I like Mary so I don't mean this as an insult... but she's KZbin famous for talking, not for her songs. Kind of like how Joe Rogan is the biggest podcaster on the planet but he's not performing his comedy in stadiums. He plays small theaters. He's a podcaster who also does comedy. Bill Burr is a comedian who also does a podcast. That said, I DO like her playing and I think her videos are great.

[@dvadeco]

Mary Spender actually spends

[@gavindaviesmusic]

Great video, i have subscribed 👍

[@ibanezlaney]

I have a lot to say about this but can't get into most of it as I don't want to come across as nasty and have her simps attack. But it's a UK tour - The UK is so small you can drive to each gig and drive home almost every night. She would not survive in Australia or USA where bands do 8-10 hours drive between shows and pack up to drive another 8-10 hours. Sleep is in the car at truck stops. Her losses are 100% self inflicted due to wanting luxury and not doing the hard yards. If you can't handle the travel and need motels every night in a place as small as England - You are just not cut out for the road.

[@allstopblue5717]

Yeah the hotels every night is over the top for such a small act who is just starting to tour. I could understand getting one for select nights but not every single night

[@Civilian2.0]

Must admit, I instantly thought of the David Brent : life on the road film - Where he rents an entire tour bus to drive to gigs that are literelly an hour from his house! 🤣

[@ClarkKent768]

@@Civilian2.0 As Brent said in the film: "I'm normally good with budgets..."

[@69spook]

Mary's posh totty......😂

[@nunninkav]

You have to be at a certain level to be able to tour, otherwise you should stay a local band. Unless you have GREAT promise to attract investors because they know at some point you will be filling stadiums. 06:00 he calls it an investment tour and this would be correct, you're going to lose money on it, but you are creating a following to build off of who will come see you next tour and probably bring a friend.

[@gavindaviesmusic]

I really like Mary Spender but she should be touring for her fans and for the fun of it all. She is a major KZbin artist noticed and respected by people like Rick Beato. Everything she does is marketing related even the "I have made a loss" video. She knows exactly what she is doing.

[@sndrb1336]

no, no cigar. no soup. no sauce.

[@gavindaviesmusic]

@@sndrb1336 Thanks for your reply but I have no clue what you are trying to say apart from No! Many touring bands that are big youtube stars use touring as a marketing tool. They create Vlogs and make more money from the KZbin content than from the Tour. Old school touring had to make a profit. Not quite the same nowadays.

[@dodgingrain3695]

Could it be because they are youtubers and not focused on just music? I see Mary as a youtuber, not a musician.

[@gn0015]

You look a little bit like Mike Shinoda.

[@daneguitarist1]

Come have some whiskey in kansas!

[@davidradlin5955]

$10,000 for a 13 day tour including 8 shows, divided amongst three musicians… that’s approximately $320 per show day and $150 per travel day… you seem to think she paid her musicians excessively… sorry, I have to disagree.

[@fabianorodas]

I agree she is not popular enough to go on tour and have a profitable outcome.

[@MisterTee]

Spender is a fine example of an online act. No real zip or charisma to her as an entertainer