How new Thailand tax laws impact on Pensions and Expats

More information on ASEAN NOW: aseannow.com/topic/1316348-a-...
#thailandtaxlaw
#newthailandtaxlawimpactonpensions

[@AntiTheismForever]

Simple, I will not expose my retirement income earned on savings to Thai taxation. I will continue to visit Thailand and now have no intention of retiring there. My guess is this tax law will be revised once the full financial impact is understood, including the impact on the local real estate market. Imagine a scenario where you need to remit say $200k to buy a condo in Thailand and that remittance being taxed at 35%, just ridiculous.

[@maxmiguel500]

Yes ...the $200 k having already had tax paid on it .

[@m.s.7711]

I see it the same way. As a consequence i will be in Thailand maximum 179 days per year. So i become not a tax resident and can bring in money. At least as long as there is no real clarity.

[@wengelder9256]

It appears that the pension income is not assemble anyway . The directive states income from business or employment .

[@AntiTheismForever]

@@wengelder9256 U.S. Social Security is exempt, not income generated from retirement savings in a pension fund, annuity or superannuation etc.

[@maxmiguel500]

I think it's only if you are a permanent resident there ...that is live there more than 6 mths per year . Also my country has a tax treaty with TL so income can't be double taxed

[@user-tl2eu9dq8w]

I am a retired American with a "permanent resident" status visa: I obtained it some 15+ years ago. I have no income generated in Thailand. My sole source of spending funds for my life in Thailand is from periodic remittances from my US bank account to my Thai bank income. From your presentation I am with the understanding that I do not have to pay any tax on incoming remittances. Please confirm.

[@bigal2417]

These laws will never be enforced, retires will leave in their droves, the entertainment industry will collapse as will the property market shops etc., the economy will collapse in farang areas.

[@MrSyms69]

Hit the nail on the head, for sure many are already making plans to move to a better more friendlier place. That's also for the ones making (were making) plans to move to Thailand.

[@billytheweasel]

We're going back to the US. I have a government pension, union pensions and Soc Sec. Also US rental house income. I wont pay double tax and I paid tax on all that already. 30%... are you kidding Thailand?

[@bsways]

The economy won’t collapse at all. It’s propped up by tourism not ex pats.

[@bigal2417]

@@bsways ok smart ass, lets wait and see. i bet they do not introduce these taxes for expats.

[@ThemePro24]

@@billytheweasel Under the US Thailand Double Taxation agreement, your government pension (or social security payments) aren't taxable in Thailand. And even for the income that in taxable in Thailand, it will be offset by whatever tax amount you paid in the US.

[@bsways]

I was planning on renting my apartment out in Australia and living on that money aswell as savings account interest. Im already taxed at the full rate. Will i be taxed in Thailand? If so i wont be retiring there. Ill go Cambodia instead

[@Maninseasia]

What about if you just have savings and living off that?

[@DaveAppleton]

People think that they can keep quiet and not be caught up in this. Thailand banks are legally required to report money transfers into the country. My retirement money is in very tax friendly investments in the UK and primary house sales in the UK are not subject to tax so all my money would be subject to Thai tax making Thailand not financially viable for me ☹️. If the money is not earned in Thailand and you're not a Thai citizen you should be tax exempt. Early 2025 is when retirees will start getting caught for tax as tax is taken for the year just gone. I hope they change their mind before then as it will have a big effect on people retiring there.

[@hkdaddy3326]

I'm glad you summarized this as I find it hard to believe that Thailand is not satisfied that a foreigner brings money into the country and spend it. But on top they need to apply a tax. I have many friends in Thailand, I will be interested in their reaction. Thanks

[@billytheweasel]

Do you happen to have a link showing that 2025 is the start to this please? We want to get out late Dec 2024 to skip 30% double taxation.

[@DaveAppleton]

@@billytheweasel The official date stated by the Thai gov for the start of the taxing of foreign income was 1st Jan 24. This means that as you pay tax for the previous year all tax residents of Thailand(foreigners living here more than 6 months of the year) will have to file a tax return on income or capital gains bought into the country for the year of 2024. As filing taxes in your own country it will be up to you what you report but a crime is being committed if you miss file. How this is going to play out in reality and how stringently any of this is going to be enforced nobody knows, but that's why I'm now putting any potential move on hold until more is known. There are bound to be legal loopholes around this that can be used but one thing I do know is in the age of the electronic movement of money it's way easier for Thai tax officials to track any money you've bought in.

[@user-pe2cm3gq5d]

We all recall TAT begging the post Covid farang… ’Please come back’, bring us your $, And they did, and the scams came back too in full force, special prices for Mr. Farang as well. Not to mention all the sick water buffalo’s 😂 Now they are trying to F us in wake of the Hi-so Thai who have been avoiding these taxes for years!

[@dprocter7430]

I believe as of now rental income will be treat exactly as foreign income and therefore liable to taxation in Thailand, even though it's already been subject to tax in your home country...

[@billytheweasel]

That's what I'me seeing. How to get out of Thailand and avoid 2023 double taxation legally is my new question.

[@nickwright3746]

Was going to move to Thailand in a couple of years. But not now

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

This will kill the foreign real estate market DEAD!!. So if I were to sell a property in the UK for £250k = 10mil Baht which is/was my sole residence, this is free from CGT in the UK. But if I were to transfer this here to buy a property I would be taxed at 35% less my threshold allowances. Which are barely 250-300k Bt in my circumstances

[@user-xh1pc8nu2i]

Does Thailand Revenue even consider that the U K has a threshold. This appears to be something to be cleared up and I hope that someone who is paying tax in Thailand can help with. Is the U K P60 for income a form of evidence accepted by the Thai Revenue department?

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

@@user-xh1pc8nu2i Good point.

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

@@user-xh1pc8nu2i The sum above I quoted is my Thai Tax allowance threshold, sorry. You can find an online calculator tool, Mazaars provide a good one. Sale of your sole residence in UK is exempt from CGT, but this might not be covered in the DTA. After 18 years here I retired at 45 I m thinking about spreading my time between 3 separate Tax juristictions. Unfortunately I have teenage kids here. Not easy!!

[@pete98146]

Not only that, but those that want to spend time in Thailand will only be here 180 days...say October thru March ie good weather season and they they will leave. Imagine all those Thai business owners taking a massive hit to their businesses when Expat Joe isn't here for half the year?

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

@@user-xh1pc8nu2i Yes it is. Thailand also has a tax threshold, you need to do your own research and due diligence, as I have. My tax liability is ZERO for at least 3-4 more years. Straight from a Thai Tax official.

[@user-pe2cm3gq5d]

Thank you Thailand! You just helped me make my retirement decision… Hello Phillipines!

[@frankdevries5739]

Yes lovely alternative. Safety is an issue there. Infrastructure is a living nightmare. Corruption is even worse and most restaurants are fastfood. On top of that the Thais are way more friendly. ( my opinion I know ).

[@DavidWilliams-qr5yj]

​@@frankdevries5739 I agree 👍 PI are not a great choice. My opinion too

[@viktor133100]

You retire wherever you want of course. But you shouldn't pay too much attention in Thailand to laws that *may* come out. I live here (Thailand) and even though I'm following up on this, I'm not really worried. And I'm also bringing in my paycheck from abroad. Most info on social media isn't reliable either. (Yes, I see the irony in me commenting that on social media)

[@jonklause5130]

Very clearly communicated and well understood. Thank You as you have simplified what was seemingly complicated have a wonderful day.

[@topcat9350]

Best way to stay under 6 months Thailand then travel other countries in the region for other 6 months

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

Yeah thats fine for those who have no commitments and can be flexible. Not so easy for those with families and property here. As myself been here since 2006/7.

[@bsways]

Problem.with that is that you're then going to have to get short term accommodation which is more expensive. Most condos they want to sign you for a year .

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

@@bsways Yes absolutely and the cost of air travel is very expensive too. Anyway I feel very relaxed and comfortable now, safe in the knowledge I am pretty much exempt, as I meet with certain conditions, after having a meeting with a tax advisor in BKK.

[@billytheweasel]

@@user-dj9nl2vs9x Are you a US citizen, may I ask? I can't see how I'm exempt except for US soc sec via the DTA.

[@charliefarley9658]

Very well explained, thank you, but the details theirin are still ambiguous. When the Thai authorities realise the shit storm of uncertainty they've created amongst retiree expats, I'm sure the penny will drop, and retiree residents will be excluded and exempt as they morally should be.

[@w3s77]

Nope. Thailand can't wait to rid country of cheap Charlie living on 40 baht pad Thai and 60 baht Chang beer budgets. Health expenses of broke Europeans is not Thailand's problem. Good luck back in Europe/Australia.

[@jurgschupbach3059]

these are sAFFings

[@billytheweasel]

"When the Thai authorities realise" When Thai authorities realize things monkeys will fly out my @ss. I'm glass half empty on any realizations from either Immigration or the Revenue Dept.

[@brooksc900]

Thank you. Something to work with.

[@bigal2417]

Another great idea thought up without thinking about the negative side effects how this will impact the economy.

[@ronfender8101]

IF I understand you correctly, I have a renew once a year retirement visa. Been living here 10 years. I am still exempt from taxes from money coming from America. ?

[@billytheweasel]

No, it doesn't sound that way to me so far. Soc Sec seems to be exempt per the DTA (double taxation agreement). The change removed the 'most recent year' wording so they tax money earned in ANY year now -from what I read. There's a DTA with the US but it seems to be out of effect now.

[@johnnybgood3909]

What if the money is remitted to a thai personal bank account?

[@johnnybgood3909]

Like a bargirl..lol

[@roygoad2870]

This maybe a naive suggestion, but if you just use your U.K. bank card or a digital account like Wise, the money your spending is held in the U.K. and not in Thailand. So how can you be taxed if most of your money is held in your U.K. bank, all your spending is accessed from an ATM from your U.K. bank account! 🧐. The only difficulty maybe the retirement visa?

[@robertgrey6101]

@roygoad A very good point. Money held in native country and spent in Thailand on taxed goods on credit card is what ??

[@w3s77]

You will still need to file tax return if in Thailand more than 189 days. Thailand could then assess taxes on any income.

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

Yes that is what I shall be doing and said on many forums from day one of hearing this, last October. Also "gifts" to spouses are tax free in Thailand (20milBt) and you can also give funds to your children upto £3k per year from UK tax free.

[@carlyndolphin]

I just use my UK credit card in Thailand.

[@bsways]

Because you will still have to submit a return and they will want to know where the money is coming from. You can try and evade but if they find out you could end up in a Thai prison!!

[@duds1945]

thank you

[@terryharris9265]

If you transfer money that is in savings and put it into a Thai bank also in savings is that income? Will it be taxed?

[@alancurtis9155]

Yes, when money is remitted into thailand it becomes assessable for tax.

[@billytheweasel]

The Thai-US DTA seems to exclude only soc sec income. Looks like I'll be on the hook for 30-35% pension/rental tax here unless we can get out Dec 2024.

[@tomkent4656]

You should mention that income will only be assessable under the rules if actually remitted into Thailand (i.e transferred from overseas into a Thai bank account, or brought into the country in cash). Money earned abroad but not remitted is not assessable.

[@wlodmec5143]

I want to transfer ~$23k for my retirement visa ( 800k THB ). Are those money taxable too?

[@viktor133100]

What's the source of this information? It seems a lot like what's written on several news sites. Who are more interested in publishing fast rather than making sure all info is correct.

[@gotamd]

The biggest problem I have with this interpretation change is that there's no real way to determine how much tax was previously paid on current-day "savings" (but "savings" that may have been earned post 12/31/2023) that may be coming into Thailand many, many years after it was earned and taxed in a foreign tax jurisdiction (say someone moving to Thailand in 2050...). I don't see a way to reasonably and properly calculate tax liability because of this backward-looking interpretation of "income."

[@MrTedpersinger]

Are all American government pensions immune to taxation, or only social security? Thank you.

[@breadgarlichouse2265]

Good question. Because America has a double taxation treaty with Thailand.

[@billytheweasel]

@@breadgarlichouse2265 The DTA excludes soc sec but my rental house, govt pension, and union pensions are taxed at 30-35% per the table. I want to know if we can get out Dec 2024 before we get stuck.

[@user-tl2eu9dq8w]

I am an American retired in TH. I received a Thai "permanent resident status" visa some 20+ years ago. I request my bank in the USA to remit to me funds about 4 times per year. It is not employment income but purely from my personal savings in the USA. As a generality would I likely be taxed by the Thai government as being viewed by the Thai tax code issue being discussed in this question at this time??

[@davidb2206]

Ask your local Thai tax office. I'm sure they'll tell you "Yes."

[@billytheweasel]

@@davidb2206 Now we're supposed to pay "tax experts" to try to untangle this new ball of confusion...

[@suzy260]

My understanding is no. Remittance is generally defined as money that is sent from one party to another - requiring two people. If you are transferring money from a bank account in your name in the USA to a bank account in your name in Thailand, that is not considered remittance. good to check with someone else though, as I am not an expert.

[@MrEye4get]

That is a great explanation, but unless Thailand can determine the source of the funds remitted, it is impossible to know any tax liability. At a minimum, a tax resident must file a detailed tax return documenting the source of all funds remitted to Thailand. The Tax Department would then need to review every return while knowing how pensions are disbursed in every applicable country! In my case, I have four passions, three of which are deposited directly into my Thai bank account each month. Bank records always record international transfers through BankNet but not the actual source or purpose of the deposits.

[@billytheweasel]

"passions" Freudian slip? lol Same. I have US soc sec, one state govt. pension, and 3 union pensions, plus rent from my US rental house. Looks like soc sec is excluded but the rest is taxed at 30% per the table. Can we get out Dec 2024 before this this takes effect?

[@robertgrey6101]

Where does Australia stand in this double tax system ?? Can you please tell me ??

[@jbranche8024]

Yes go to your embassy or Revenue department internet website and look for Australia/Thailand tax Treaty Agreement. No one is going to do Your Homework for you.

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

All Income taxable only Government Pensions are exempt as per the DTA. Govt not STATE (social security) which is taxable.

[@robertgrey6101]

@@jbranche8024 Many thanks for your (?) reply.

[@robertgrey6101]

@@user-dj9nl2vs9x I have since found out Australia has the double tax agreement with Thailand. Tax paid in Australia on earnings means NO TAX in Thailand on money earnt in Australia.

[@thesheperd7567]

If I am required to pay tax I will continue to use Wise but send to my daughter's account who is allowed gift money. She can transfer direct to my account and not remitted. Only have to do enough times to stay within the tax free threshold.

[@gblueiii]

Hi I’m from the USA, I’m a disabled veteran will my disability be taxed?

[@auntrayjones39]

I think our VA disability payments is the same as social security payments not taxable by Thai government.

[@gblueiii]

Thank you

[@paulwiseman2747]

people with retirement visa do not have to pay tax on income from overseas and this is on the immigration website

[@jimbrown2485]

So when I come to Thailand next month and get a retirement visa and stay one year my pension coming from America into my American Bank will not be taxed as I will not be putting it into a Thai bank?

[@jimbrown2485]

Please anybody and everyone when I come to Thailand next month and get a retirement visa for one year will my American pension going into my American Bank be taxed as I'm not putting it into a Thai Bank I'm only withdrawn at little by little at the Thailand ATMs. Thank you

[@paulwiseman2747]

you need adequate funds in a thai bank account for a retirement visa or use a visa company to do this for you

[@AntiTheismForever]

Umm no, best to check the new wording of Section 41 of the tax code. No such exemption exists for those holding a retirement visa.

[@paulwiseman2747]

please check immigration website it clearly says people on retirement visa do not have to pay taxes on money from their own country

[@gregmcginnis3301]

Can anyone answer this for me if I make a income from the US and pay US taxes and keep my money in a Charles Schaub acct which has no overseas transaction fees on ATM how will Thai gov tax me

[@josephvikre8328]

It seems that Thailand has become a poor choice for retirement. I was planning to retire there but I am looking elsewhere.

[@Michael-xp9ln]

Philippines is great

[@johnwelch461]

From Australia now living in Thailand my pension is not taxed from Australia, will Thailand tax my pension?? Thanks

[@w3s77]

Over 180 days in Thailand, yes. All money brought into Thailand by tax residents is taxed, all.

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

Only Government Pensions (not State) are exempt from.tax in the bi.lateral DTA between Aus and Thailand.

[@johnwelch461]

Mine is government, so l won't b affected?

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

@@w3s77 That isnt correct. Did you not listen to the video?

[@susanzimmerli5178]

Nobody knows everything is only speculation.

[@zentravel1515]

Great job, thanks. Unfortunately it's still as clear as mud, at least to me.

[@billytheweasel]

The updated ASEAN Now article is not "simple", nor clear. My US Soc Sec is not taxed here in Thailand. But my State/local government pension is. My union pension is also taxed. And rental income from my US rental house is taxed here too. I paid US taxes on all of this income to the US and Thailand is now double taxing it despite the DTA, according to ASEAN Now. No?

[@istvanborbely1563]

It doesn't make any sense to me.. I'm from England.. and if i come to Thailand... My money from UK i need to pay tax again i don't think so... No chance i pay any tax .. one a tourist visa... I bring cash.. tax. That Thailand

[@stevebomonster]

Nice info, tax return info A5 balance should be 210,000 not 21,000

[@breadgarlichouse2265]

How will this affect Americans who have already paid taxes? Americans have to pay tax no matter where they live in the world. American has a double taxation treaty with Thailand.

[@terryharris9265]

It explains that thoroughly in the article above....

[@breadgarlichouse2265]

@@terryharris9265 nope

[@davidwalden2887]

It appears until I cannot get a clear understanding of my Australian-aged pension and some superannuation which is not taxable in Australia. This is likely the main question that Australian-aged pensioners will ask. So far no one has an answer. They keep beating around the bush.

[@braindojo4128]

that's why any business is done in malaysia. the term "remittance" makes no damn sense. and if i am in Tland for 6 months during a calendar year, i'm a taxable resident?

[@tedosmond413]

more than 180 days

[@user-nl4li1pj8l]

Uk pension is only taxable if your total income combined is above 120.000bt.You didn't make that clear

[@lastyle7363]

that is only around $3300 US for the year...I'm sure everyone will be above earning $3300 usd per year...it's not per month.

[@DiamDiva10]

So the only way to avoid this is to not stay passed 180 days. 2 coubtres a year it is

[@darrineagle3450]

The Philippines is looking better with starlink internet.

[@madmick4332]

USA and Thailand have a tax treaty. So Americans just pay their tax to USA from what Ive read.

[@stevencochrane115]

M2H here we come! Malaysia is much more tax friendly for retirees, is cheaper than Thailand and everyone speaks English.

[@frankdevries5739]

There is also a long list why I don't want to live in Malaysia and much more prefer the culture in Thailand.

[@Michael-xp9ln]

How many people will run, is not clear. Too many other places for retirement. I could never recommend Thailand as a good place for retirement. Too many changes in immigration policy and laws. Now they wish to tax the hell out of the people.

[@jamalgreen3056]

You need to be more direct my dude it’s not just money being emitted and coming from abroad that will be tax it’s every person earning $144,000 usd and up a year will now be taxed 35% and up a year in Thailand.So if in an average earner only earning $50,000 usd a year the tax I would pay in Thailand is significantly lower the only people hitting u up are the high earners and retirees.Not average earners we know it wasn’t going to affect us much because most Thai citizens don’t make much money there going to look out for their citizens first this is what Asian countries do and it also will support average earning foreigners.The misconception comes from when these dudes on KZbin just refuse to come out and say they are mainly targeting the high earners and high earning retirees and that they will be the main ones impacted.The rest of us wont.

[@breadgarlichouse2265]

only exempt up to 150,000 baht … read the new tax code

[@alancurtis9155]

Anyone remitting more than 120,000 baht will be affected. Full stop.

[@Michael-xp9ln]

The question is, will high income earners, that are foreigners, agree to this nonsense? The answer is, NO WAY!

[@barryshaw1972]

You are not a Thai tax professional, why are you giving advice? The rules for 2024 are not out yet. Stop giving advice on a subject you know nothing about. All subscribers should only get advice from Thai Tax professional.

[@w3s77]

Just read the law. Over 180 days = tax resident= must pay taxes in Thailand.

[@barryshaw1972]

@@w3s77just heard the other day from a legal guy in Thailand on KZbin on this 180 day subject that this may not mean you may need to pay tax. He said that no certainty yet, we need to wait for rules and then discuss with Thai tax authority if need to do a 2024 return

[@jbranche8024]

Wrong. The XCountry/Thai Treaty Agreement is still legal and binding. It takes less than an hour to read. He is giving basic, currently known guidance. You are not a baby and responsible for your own financial well being. The rest of us are getting up to speed and aware of possible Tax changes based on the Tax Treaty.

[@user-dj9nl2vs9x]

@@barryshaw1972 Everyone who resides here after 180 days IS a tax resident by definition. Therefore it will be necessary to submit a Tax Return upon obtaining a TTN. Whether you, or I do so is entirely optional. But it will be a requirement thats a given.

[@jdshemp]

@@w3s77 Not if you are from one of the 61 countrys with a double tax agreement.

[@georgequek7996]

Why you guys worry so much about thai law taxes especially white or black foreigners, but i am not as an asean man in BKK...🙏

[@frankdevries5739]

Because we like to tackle problems before it's too late. Maybe your mentality is better; we'll know next year.