How Old-School DnD went mainstream in 2023

[@QuestingBeast]

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[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

GREAT video. I'm taking notes. Deathbringer RPG is coming.

[@4saken404]

Well you have a hell of a following so I'm sure you'll do great. I have some friends who are working on an RPG they are going to try to launch this year. But unfortunately we are unknowns with no following or web presence so I don't think we'll be so lucky. But hopefully we can still get funded enough to turn our dream into reality. Hopefully we'll get to see you if you're going to Origins this June! :D

[@jfacegames7354]

@@4saken404good luck Crispy!

[@4saken404]

@@jfacegames7354 Thanks, man! I'll have to check back up on yours when I get a chance. And this isn't even _my_ rpg! It's one that some friends of mine started working on independently and I am helping them with it! 😃

[@sumdude4281]

Quality products goes a long way. Yes, simplicity. As a DM, the simplicity of the OSR is a huge selling point.

[@Stray_GM]

100%. Switching to more old school oriented games has made actually running it... Surprise surprise.... Not a chore.

[@HereComeMrCee-Jay]

And the cross compatibility is huge. I mix and match across various OSR and adjacent products easily, because there is no expectation of perfect "balance"... players understand they may need to run.

[@SortKaffe]

When introducing brand new players, I like to start with a simpler d20-based system like Shadowdark or Mörk Borg. It might be perfect for said players or bridge the gap to 5e, if they want to try a little more crunch and character options.

[@Unregistered.HyperCam.2]

@@SortKaffe I used to do this, but in my experience this lends to people clinging closer to 5e(or 3.x even, when the options were 3.x, 4e, or something older or a near clone of something older) when you try to remove the training wheels, for lack of a better term, and are more likely try to politick options and mechanics from later editions into a 1E AD&D, 0E/S&W, or BX/OSE game. When I just throw players into the deep end with old-school or OSR games, it's pretty sink-or-swim, no pun intended; I seem to get _less_ people put off this way than if I try to ease them into it through Shadowdark, or even C&C for 3.x players that refuse to avoid the d20 system. (Not that I dislike C&C or Shadowdark, just stressing a point.)

[@LlamasInc49]

Map Crow (Kyle Latino) also makes a great point that the OSR makes some of the most beautiful TTRPG books in recent memory. Chris McDowall touches on this with the artwork component, but ultimately I think the OSR embraces the weird, grotesque , and whimsical readily compared to the sanitized high fantasy of 5e. The reason why people find these works so alluring is because the authors and artists can make THEIR cohesive vision of a game, supplement, or adventure come to life without being fettered by the norm.

[@rocketbird1]

Yours is truly a lucid take on the topic, I think. Mythic Bastionlands is gorgeous as hell, and my players want to play Shadowdark just based on the gritty B/W art

[@yagsipcc287]

5e looks overally clean. I want grim and dirty, mud and blood feel as that is how my games are set. 5e feels like a Marvel movie super clean looking even when trying to be dirty, no blood and trying to tick boxes trying not to offend anyone. It's why I like OSR something for everyone like AD&D and all of the stuff is easily cross compatible

[@larrydigger461]

Yea, sanitized is a good word. When your target audience is so wide, you may capture more people but not as deeply. I think people are realizing that 5e (and it's general visual aesthetic) is the pop music or the Marvel of RPGs. Passably entertaining, but doesn't truly scratch any particular itch. The osr however, can fill many more niches: shadow dark is gritty, b/w, and severe; mork borg goes even one step further and includes a death metal flavor; dolmenwood has a whimsical, colorful, weird fairy-tale feel, mythic bastionland is like Arthurian legend + elden ring, etc. There's just a lot more risks being taken and that is very attractive when 5e's generic fantasy inevitably starts to feel bland.

[@yagsipcc287]

@@larrydigger461 yeah big time a flavour for everything. Also even beyond that just the type of adventures people put out. Alot of people just run adventures or use them as the base of their game. Even OST type adventures are more gritty

[@wurzzzz]

It's fine to call it what it is: idpol in art form. Most of the artists for modern D&D would've flunked out of art school in the 20th Century.

[@mykediemart]

Passion. The OSR creators have a passion for the game, and the community. They make products they want to play and not just sell.

[@lucasalbertini8505]

With wizards getting out of my country (Brazil), along with all the wrongs they have done for the community in the last years, I sincerely hope the people starts reaching out for the indie scene as a whole

[@eleintblood]

:O why are they leaving Brazil?

[@musinghat]

@@eleintblood They are ending Portuguese translations for products (so Brazil and Portugal), due to not enough sales and rising costs apparently. Hopefully, this means more people will turn to locally developed (which Brazil has a few) and indie games.

[@theonlyk38]

It os very cool that we have oficial translated versions for DCC, Old School Essentials and Knave nowadays. Years Ago o saw a Brazilian zine for DCC name "+Morra"

[@macarraodeshanghai]

Vida longa ao Old Dragon então 😅

[@pootieheadroflmao]

I don't just think Wotc is the only one leaving...

[@jeffwhittingham5314]

I love the OSR, but playing devil's advocate here. The fact that 5E has continued to see growth (particularly in 2023) - after arguably the worst PR years in Hasbro history, and the knowledge of a new edition right around the corner - is quite remarkable and shows exactly how resilient that brand name is. D&D is basically the Kleenex of fantasy TTRPG's. It's synonymous with the hobby itself and isn't ever going away. That said, I don't think it needs to go away for the hobby to thrive, and I believe we are seeing trends in that direction based on this data. Thank you for sharing.

[@TheGreenKnight500]

That's a good point. D&D is very much the face of the hobby. It's owned by one of the world's largest toy companies and can be found in major, non-gaming stores. It's got appeal to the casual audience. If the hobby itself grows, D&D will grow. The OSR mainly appeals to the hardcore members of the hobby. You need a certain amount of knowledge and interest in TTRPGs to even be aware of it. Nevertheless, I think hardcore hobbyists are a pretty big portion of the hobby. Obviously, the OSR is gaining a lot of success and will probably continue to be quite successful. It wouldn't be that surprising to see at least one OSR game break out into "mainstream" attention at some point. You can definitely compare it to the video game industry and the rise of indie games. AAA games are going to have the big marketing budgets and brand recognition, but indie games repeatedly break out into the spotlight through word of mouth and KZbin exposer.

[@SortKaffe]

@TheGreenKnight500 ironically, I find OSR very well suited for new and casual players while 5e is hardcore to learn.

[@doomhippie6673]

@Nix91 Thanks man. Get a life.

[@ethangrant5061]

I think the biggest thing is that these games didn't just give alternative games to 5e, but they have tools that anyone can use for any system, I personally only run dcc, but I steal tools and tables from a bunch of different games

[@mightystu49]

I think Kelsey said it best: having a built in audience to monetize really takes the lion’s share of the credit. Likewise, it’s all relative: doubling the profits or size of a small niche feels more impactful than D&D doing a small bump of like 5% growth, even if that 5% is more total people. The OSR can keep growing at a higher rate only because it is still a small number of people.

[@yagsipcc287]

I only use OSR, AD&D (OSRIC) Basic and shadowdark as all of them are very easy to use in any of each others systems for the most part OSE also fits into this.

[@feralgoblin92]

As one of the GMs who came into the OSR within the last year or so, I can say that at least in my case it was largely in reaction to WotC's and Hasbro's actions, including the OGL problems. I immediately found OSE and Mausritter and convinced my players to try those, and haven't looked back. We still have a couple 5e campaigns we're in the process of finishing up, but pretty much everything we've started in the last year has used OSE, Mausritter, Knave, Teenage Mutant Dirtbags, or some other OSR system.

[@BoredToBoard]

There’s also people keeping their powder dry for 5.5/6/One dnd so this will be an interesting comparison next year once the main books are released with crowd funding OSR and 3rd DnD products.

[@sietsewijker1530]

The OGL debacle didn't do it for me. It is mostly the slower awareness that OSR adventures have a lot more condensed information instead of the endless fluff that is very setting specific, so engraved in the 5e culture.

[@TheManyVoicesVA]

Shadowdark is successful because it is incredibly well written. The classes all fit on one page. It is very rules light while still having solid class fantasy. I love the system.

[@SeanFranchise]

The packaging is really key to the value prop of ShadowDark. Not only is it concisely written and well laid out, it contains almost all you could need to run a fantasy RPG, basically on-the-fly, in an easily referenced single book. Even if you change the rules (I've added Knave 2e/Crown & Skull-style inventory damage to my game), the amount of GM resources that are usable at the table makes it invaluable!

[@TheManyVoicesVA]

@@SeanFranchise absolutely. It also has very cool and well written modules!

[@vincepale]

I saw and bought Skate Wizards, which led me to buy Maze Rats, because I really enjoyed some of the underlying concepts. Last night I bought the OSE rules box set... I think I'm hooked.

[@eleintblood]

Skate Wizards is awesome!

[@orkcol]

Maze rats is amazing. We went 20 sessions deep into it and were still going. I've hacked it a bit but the core is the same.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

I agree that the OGL debacle had a lot to do with it. I won’t support WotC anymore

[@thomasrose2149]

There's no love lost between me and those clowns anymore

[@davidbudzik5970]

I think a few things are at work, here, that explain the growth of OSR products. 1) people are getting tired of 5e because it seems like most 5e DMs just run published material instead of writing their own. So once they’ve burned through all the WOTC published material, they run out of gas. As a result, a lot of DMs are looking at the decades of published material for early editions of D&D and using that. 2) the production values of OSR materials has come a long way in the last 10 years, thanks, in large part, to OSE. 3) the OSR is more friendly to people who want to casually try out the hobby. 4) OSR materials are offered in more genres than typical fantasy, which is where 5e lives. 5) Stranger Things created an enormous amount of nostalgia for the early days of the hobby.

[@yagsipcc287]

Also 5E is also just a superhero game at this point. People also want more of a challenge games like Shadowdark can offer it, DCC also does, many OSR systems do. People still make AD&D stuff to this day often under (OSRIC) system and all OSR stuff translates to most of these days systems.

[@Stephenmcabrera]

Loved the analysis and the guests. The point about owning your own fans was super interesting as well. There may be a saturation point for OSR eventually but it's encouraging to see that it's still growing and becoming more mainstream!

[@stillmattwest]

There's just so much creativity in the OSR space right now. I mean, have you guys SEEN Gods of the Forbidden North? What a cool campaign that is. And so ambitious. Nothing like it in in the big box games. And that's just one example.

[@MemphiStig]

The other important factors are that a lot of these very successful games have been very good -- quality products *and* excellent games -- and their producers treat the hobby and their customers with respect.

[@toddpickens]

Excellent deep dive! I've been playing for decades and have played them all. The appeal of the simplicity and straightforward actions vs consequences aspect of old school never loses its appeal.

[@JFolo-gr8dw]

Speaking as someone who got into the OSR and Kickstarter last year... it started with Knave, some Mork Borg stuff, Mythic Bastionland, and so on. Did I leave 5e at that time because of the OGL? Not so much; I was just fed up with the game itself. I got into the OSR by pursuing rules-light games on Reddit and here on KZbin. Maybe I'll look into more newsletters (and Shadowdark too)!

[@keith0363]

Old-school systems seem to be better for a lot of us don’t like deep immersion. Many are introverts or self conscious about acting out a character’s role and prefer to play characters as closer to "ourselves". We tend to use our intelligence and wisdom, rather than the character's. It’s meta, but it’s a fun way to play.

[@QuestingBeast]

I know what you mean, but oddly I find old-school games more immersive. The world feels more real, and it feels more like the character is *me* rather than someone else.

[@applecrow8]

@@QuestingBeast I agree with this because in the 2e and previous days, your class was much more barebones and how your character grew mattered much more than what their 'build' was. It also allowed for a ton more creativity in magic items or combat styles because the system was less regimented and locked down.

[@JFolo-gr8dw]

I can't speak to immersion, but I do find OSR to be very intuitive and casual-friendly. I'm a GM, but when I play, I'm "me"--there is no problem with meta gaming at my table!

[@steelmongoose4956]

Interesting. My own experience has led me to seek out rules-lite games to *increase* immersion. I think I see why it would work for you as well, though. Rules-lite games can still facilitate action at the table, and I suppose that this would be a priority for your preferred style of play.

[@Supercohboy]

​@@applecrow8 There's a lot to be said about the power of psychology here imo, you're totally right though. Games with fewer rules lead to more on-the-spot DM rulings/situational experiences and have fewer barriers to entry when a player has a new idea in mind. Someone in the comments also mentioned how there's more spell creation in earlier TTs for some reason, probably because many TT's rules allowed it to compensate for their smaller spell lists. A player messing around with the Stuff of the Universe and creating a special new spell to suit the situation at-hand is much more memorable than picking the right pre-built tool for the job and using it appropriately. Especially when earlier DnD versions were pretty unforgiving in the event that the player fails their cast. One of these situations feels more like an "a-ha!"/clutch moment and the other is you as the caster doing your job lol But then the obvious flipside is how unbalanced on-the-spot DM decisions can become, how unbalanced custom mechanics can be, etc. which is why the playerbase demanded more precise and expansive rules in later editions. Official rules turned out to be unbalanced too, though (at least for DnD), so that's why I think we're in this situation in the first place. I think that 3rd party materials that aren't just expansions/modules are so popular because the OG rules for many TTs have their well-known inadequacies, yet there isn't a mainstream solution that has become popularized yet, or it's an imperfect solution in itself (so many popular homebrew rules are a band-aid on a bigger problem, let's be honest). People thus are interested in a product that packages these solutions alongside other content that is presumably designed with those changes in mind, which hopefully leads to a better experience at the table.

[@declankonesky38]

That newsletter stuff is key among keys. When i used to follow webcomic creation discourse they said the same thing. You own your newsletter and give direct info. Socials dont always show you what you want

[@Lanessar8008]

One thing I think that you have correct is the social media platforms being a bad way to grow your audience. As an example, the discord for Shadowdark has lost most of the material I (and many early adopters) provided for other members when the channels were merged or changed, and hundreds of pages of tested material just disappeared. I stopped interacting with the community at that point. I personally was not pre-existing audience for Kelsey, nor was I sucked in by ad campaigns. I simply got an email from word of mouth and looked into the system I ended up adopting. But I didn't hear about Shadowdark from social media. I did see your video and Professor DMs videos, but that was after I pledged. I've now been running my campaign for Shadowdark for over a year and a half using the quickstart and the PDF when it got released. My group hasn't even gotten to the Cursed Scroll content in my game and are just rocking along with a couple of warriors, a cleric and a mage and they are just having fun. I adopted Shadowdark (coming from OSE) as I wanted to simplify the crunch for my group and have a simple "these are the rules" reference for my game. OSE required nearly two pages of house ruling to get to where I wanted it, and despite Gavin's best efforts, it is still very clunky being that they are identical to BX (as they should be) with all the good and bad that entails especially with regards to resolution mechanics being percentile, in-6 and all over the place. House ruling can be fun and all, but it unbalances a game very quickly. I wanted to run a game with clean, clear rules that players could easily adopt and that I had very little "tinkering" to do in order to use. This also brings forth another problem: Many of the supplemental works (and indeed, many of the game systems themselves) from the community are.... lacking. They are not playtested. There's just an imaginarium of people saying "I'm making this thing I want to make" and almost no one PLAY TESTS their material with players before pushing it out. It's poorly designed because of that, and frankly garbage. Because if it doesn't hold up to a player playing it, then it's definitely not something you should be charging for. I also began at this time to feel "system fatigue", where many game systems being published were simply "BX with a few pages of custom mechanics" - most of which I felt should not be a separate product, but a blog post, and I didn't want to use those. They carry on the legacy and strengths of the older systems, but they also carry forward the flaws and weirdness we created during the 80s. I think this also goes for 5E. When I read the quickstart for Shadowdark, that pretty much sealed the deal. Concise, clear rules for both players and DMs with plenty of "rulings not rules" implemented. Perfect. But I think I may be the exception. I am not going to throw money at kickstarter after kickstarter. I have a system I enjoy, I have built a setting I want to run, and I have the adventures I want to run for my players. I may be convinced to buy another adventure or two if they are something stellar and well designed (i.e. also playtested) but I'm done throwing hundreds in on random kickstarters that should not be kickstarters.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

Preache, totally agree, so many of these D20 retro clones are the same exact game

[@social_ghost]

I had practically the same experience with OSE. Its a pretty solid game with excellent presentation but its definitely flawed because B/X itself was flawed. After picking up and reading through Delving Deeper I found it both much more concise and it covers a lot more topics in actual depth than OSE does. Also every die roll being either a d20 or a d6 helps immensely. It can be vague and confusing at points but I feel like that's part of its charm and those portions never get in the way of the other 90% of the game. It impresses me how just cleaning up and clarifying the original game from 1974 produces a tighter and better experience than the majority of its descendant games from the 1980s do.

[@rocketbird1]

About the lack of quality content/adventures for games like Shadowdark: what would think the solution would be? Because I would like to pick up the game but I don't know if there's enough material to structure long term play

[@Lanessar8008]

@@rocketbird1 Shadowdark is completely fine for material. It's the adventure material being produced for ALL game systems that comes into question, especially stuff that isn't playtested. For Shadowdark, conversion of any BX/1ED or even 2ED adventure is easy and would just be a part of what I'd consider "normal prep" to switch monsters or stats or saves. I personally have around 200 pages of material converted for a custom Keep on the Borderlands setting and I just spend 15-20 minutes before each game session typing it up or copy-pasting monsters into a doc for quick reference.

[@rocketbird1]

@@Lanessar8008 that's great to hear. What are your thoughts on converting from OSE adventures, if you have?

[@normanlennox4949]

I am still a very green DM, and I use that to try to bring green player into the community. So I don't have a ton of experience running games. But, from what I've experienced learning and teaching, OSR's streamlined approach works best to stop bogging down the game, and keeping the fun up. Every time I've adjudicated a situation with a quick ruling, it has worked out. I am less inclined to run a 5e campaign without at least some serious pruning.

[@LailaJohanna]

Speaking for myself who got more seriously into the ORS last year and backed Dolmenwood, I definitely agree that there is a compounding effect. You hear about people still playing older editions once and you barely think of it; hear it ten times in different places is a different story. I also think, oddly, Matt Colville's videos do a lot for OSR, even if he now promotes his own RPG. But especially when he was just doing his wildly popular DMing videos, I think he opened a lot of people's eyes to the idea that the way 5e does RPG isn't the only or even the best way, especially talking about older edition adventure modules, modular playstyle, awakening interest in actually dungeon crawling etc. And once I wanted to learn more about how to actually play or run a dungeon-centric games, I was basically in the OSR, because that is where the resources are. Otherwise, for me great flavor and a DM-centric approach really helps. I'm starting a Dolmenwood campaign right now and actually understanding how easy it is to be creative in a well-designed sandbox like that and how many cool modular adventures are out there that really don't force me into this really long adventure path I have to push people along on is super inspiring. So in that case, me backing Dolmenwood had nothing to do with it being OSR - I would have bought it (or something similar) for 5e just as easily... probably more easily. But I have seen incredible quality in OSR games and that is a major draw. But I also still play 5e and will continue to do so. Variety is the spice of life :)

[@MarkHyde]

Those creators that truly reward and cherish their audiences properly get rewarded a hundredfold and more - plain and simple. Plyers and GMs alike a hungering after fresh experiences - if not replacing their 5e gaming - definitely to supplement it. This is a great video and I've never been more than happy to support INDEPENDENT creators who value their audiences.

[@jeremydurdil556]

I started playing BECMI in 1987. I never needed anything else. I have been playing it ever since. Still running multiple campaigns over many years with over a dozen different players and we play weekly. Are you saying they are still cranking out versions of this game? Guess they gotta pay the bills somehow.

[@Syndicate_01]

Comments like these really excite me and make me love this hobby; this is basically my goal for my BX/1st Ed mashup game. I want to be twice my current age and still running campaigns in this persistent world, with perhaps some of the current PCs becoming major, world-impacting characters in the years to come. I don't regret my time playing 3.5 Ed and 5th Ed (though I very quickly realized I flat out disliked 5th Ed, and don't think I'd really enjoy 3.5 like I used to as a teenager), but I do wish that I discovered BX, BECMI and 1st Ed much sooner as those are absolutely the versions of the game that I've been looking for since 2004. Similar sentiments, it sounds like, to your discovery of BECMI in '87.

[@jeremydurdil556]

Thanks for the kind words. This is a great hobby. It has been very interesting watching all the changes it has gone through over the decades. The biggest shift, in my opinion, was after WoTC took over. The game went from being based around imagination and creativity to being based on manipulating the mechanics and creating a “build”. This makes total sense when you consider what WoTC was good at… Magic the Gathering. If you have ever played ‘Magic’ and built a deck, then you should see the influence. Building a magic deck and building a WoTC D&D character are basically the same thing. At least that’s how I see it. Sounds like you felt it too. For me, BECMI was so easy to understand and simple to run. After just a couple weeks I understood that I could modify the rules to create anything I could imagine. This is why I never needed anything more from D&D. I could clearly see that as a business, D&D would die once people figured this out. It’s kinda hard to get people to pay for their own imagination. But they keep on doing it. Making changes that anyone could do themselves (as evidenced by the gobs of clones and homebrews currently on the market) and selling it to the next generation of kids. As long as we keep making new people they’ll keep making new versions of D&D for them to buy. Selling the idea of new and improved to soft and unaware minds. I have no doubt I’ll continue to watch the cycle play out for the rest of my life. It has certainly been entertaining to watch.

[@rpgquestboard]

Love Chris' point. The "rising tide lifts all boats" philosophy. Also, amazing video. Love the interview clips.

[@orbitalair2103]

Kickstarters arent the ONLY OSR or 'other' RPGs out there guys. ICRPG is pretty awesome, I found it after rolling thru several OSR titles, and like it a lot.

[@AdamK1095]

I am excited to see more people find a breath of games. Thank you.

[@vinimagus]

You read my mind, Ben. Yesterday I watched a very similar - yet underwhelming - video (data analysis on 5e vs previous editions popularity)and then thought to myself, "I'd love to watch a video on Ben's take on this." And you did exactly that (you did OSR, not previous D&D editions, but that's close enough ; I super enjoyed your video). Thank you very much, V

[@steelmongoose4956]

I’m an old gamer (started in 1979). After drifting away from gaming after college, 3rd Edition brought me back. I was very excited about the more deliberate design and explosion of character customization options. Over time, however, the rules bloat and unexpected synergies became impossible to ignore. 5E tried to mitigate some of it, but it’s hard to keep selling books without rules bloat. Now I’m finding a home in the indie scene (and my first two Kickstarts are Kelsey and Ben). My own design stuff is always an attempt to balance character customization with elegance and speed in the ruleset. I suspect that the popularity of rules-lite indie games may be a reaction to the big rulesets getting in their own way, at least for some of us.

[@strawberryhellcat4738]

I started gaming in 1980, and picked up the 5e books after being away from TTRPGs for 20 years. Rules bloat has me looking at Old School Essentials and possibly Chaosium's roleplay-heavy Call of Cthulhu spiced up with some added content from the old Hero System/Champions game Justice Inc. (or maybe drag out the 7th Sea game books).

[@steelmongoose4956]

I’ve also found inspiration in Shadowdark, Index Card RPG, EZD6, and Ben’s work. I’m waiting for Knave 2e. The games are fun to play, and they’re also full of ideas for my own stuff, even if the mechanics are different.

[@aleksosis8347]

This is the single most relevant video about TTRPGs I've seen in months. Keep up the good work! Now I just need to pore over this info. I would add that there are quite a few people who are older, with a more stable income, who want to ensure a bright future for the next generation of TTRPGs and a creator driven atmosphere, especially after the OGL scandal. There are often multi-generational households who may not even play together but all want a verdant future for creators, artists and players alike.

[@wh2568]

The thing to remember about any boom period for a hobby, is that most will simply move on to the next new thing, but some will remain in the hobby. This tends to give the hardcore niches of a given hobby longer growth, as people expand further away from the mainstream the longer they are in a hobby.

[@pistol975]

Always happy to see a new vid QB!

[@el_tejon383]

I wonder how many people, like me, play 5e but buy a lot, I mean a lot, of OSR stuff and convert it to 5e. Just finished a 2.5 year Barrowmaze campaign and just started a likely even longer Arden Vul campaign. More than half of the stuff on my shelves is OSR (Knock, all the Necrotic Gnome books, Castle Xyntillan, hexagnome, populated hexes monthly, all the lazy lich stuff, and even Willowby Hall).

[@tednovy7762]

Great session, the interviews and the data, the qualitative and quantitative.

[@paulll47]

I converted quite a few people to old school systems, it's more of an issue with players since they like to have their own little paper doll to outfit with gear, weapons and videogame like powers, GMs on the other hand seem to love the inherent semplicity of OSR games, especially because 5e does a really crappy job in supporting them in their role.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

It depends on the GM. I like systems like hit locations and those kinds of crunchy bits and other simulationist parts of systems, which turns me off most OSR games (in the narrow sense, I love RuneQuest Classic and Cepheus Engine). Of course, the great crunchy games are still nothing like D&D 5e, in that you typically still have very few "powers" for the average character, which are, to me, the worst part of D&D 3-5e and Pathfinder too. Too many exceptions, too much junk, and very little of it has a meaningful purpose... mostly just +1 to this or that.

[@sakawi]

​@@jasonGamesMasterMy understanding is that 5e was created as a compromise between the high crunch of 3.5e/Pathfinder and the more storytelling focus of earlier editions. It makes a lot of sense that it fails to do either well, leaving some people seeking more simplicity and others seeking more crunch.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

@@sakawi Yeah. 100%. You can't make all the people happy all the time and all that. Shadowdark is, IMHO, what D&D 5e SHOULD have been. But what do I know, lol. I don't actually play any D&D derived system anymore, so I'm certain my opinion is not valuable to D&D creators, lol

[@SNDKNG]

I like running published content for the OSR or Basic/Advanced in 5e. The quality of the adventures is just better, and its trivial to convert if you're willing to break with modern "balance" expectations.

[@dantherpghero2885]

I Love ALL Questing Beast videos!

[@TimeLapsePrints]

The effect of the OGL debacle can certainly be over estimated, but it's almost certainly a factor. More important than the cause to me, is that the numbers generate that the market and hobby can support multiple games - even multiple versions of D&D. I'm certain there are still folks out there building their 3.0 and 3.5 collections with PoD and print on demand. I know I'll be prowling used bookstores looking for books across editions like monster collections just to keep as inspiration. What your guests' and your own success highlight is the importance of building an audience and building that mailing list. I would love a video like this focusing on social media navigation, does and don'ts. Great content!

[@pricerowland]

The spike in profits for 5e in 2021 explains some of the short-sighted decision making of WOTC/Hasbro in the years after. They fell into the trap of expecting continuous exponential growth, that didn't happen, then they panicked and made a series of really big greed-driven mistakes.

[@Calebgoblin]

Is it wrong of me to be glad that 5e is starting to decline, Not because I plan on stopping playing it as my primary system anytime soon, but because that means I won't have to deal with constant whiplash of official system changes as much? Less power creep, less new insane okayer options for me to deal with.

[@drewenders150]

Great video! Are there fuller interviews of these people somewhere?

[@SNDurgon]

5e was the edition i started with (I had the 3.5 handbook but didn't have anyone to play with). I've always been into the "vibe" of old school D&D, the old black and white art just hits me where I live but I didn't realize that there were options outside of 5e. I stumbled across the osr subreddit by mistake and realized that there was a community for the types of games I wanted to play (the medieval avengers of 5e has always nauseated me). I just picked up a copy of white box and I cant wait to find some folks to run it with!

[@bigbake132]

I wish you luck and don't let people convince you 5e is "better' because its the current game and it has more options. The magnitude of options is what I hate about it.

[@Jo-Jet]

I can't speak for others, but I know for me that what drew me more to OSR is just how easy it is to run. Plus the rules they have to kind of steam line thing. I had a lot of fun with D&D5e, both as a player and as a DM, but after a while I started seeing the cracks more. Such as how combat while cool can be a huge slog unless everyone is ready with what they want to do, but I think they get choice paralysis when they got like 10 things they could do, and all those 10 things have rules on when you can use them. As well as monster mostly being damage sponge to have a sense of epicness.

[@dadoscriticos]

This is the power of the community ;D

[@HexploreRPG]

Thank you for sharing the insights AND the data!!!! I'm gonna study them carefully and maybe learn a few things 🙂

[@Ifryt_]

Very interesting material! Good to have these numbers.

[@spacerx]

Fastest growing doesn't necessarily mean a ton when it's got tons of space to grow into and the 5e market is pretty saturated. I do think that the OSR, or at least OSR adjacent "scene" products is a growing and exciting space in the market, but its easy to look at that statistic out of context and believe that more is happening than there is. The OSR is a pretty healthy, growing segment, but I don't know that "mainstream" is really the label to toss around to describe it yet. Or ever, even.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

I find the "everything else" numbers such a depressing situation. So many awesome systems and slowly D&D and it's progeny are suffocating the industry... no blame or shame to the OSR folks of any stripe, I think we will always be in agreement that WotC is the problem, but it's still sad.

[@HansMessersmith]

Its clearer in the google sheet Ben linked but "everything else" is growing. About 17% a year over the 10 yeats analyzed. Its just that 5e and OSR are growing much faster. So all boats are rising to some extent. As the person who did the analysis its not clear to me to what extent market share on kickstarter is being taken away from "everything else" versus 5e and OSR creating a new market. Its probably both at the same time.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

@@HansMessersmith thanks for the clarification! It's like the old saying about lies, damned lies, and statistics I guess, lol.

[@HansMessersmith]

@@jasonGamesMaster i think it is very likely that at least some "everything else" projects may have suffered somewhat from people switching to OSR stuff. But it is hard to tease that out because the overall amount of money that is spent on kickstarter rpg stuff has grown so.much. i suspect much of the "everything else" market is essentially a separate market from "d&d-ish fantasy" things. Like, i suspect very few people in the world were trying to decide whether to spend their money on the Walking Dead RPG or Dolmenwood. I dont think those two projects were in competition with each other

[@jasonGamesMaster]

@@HansMessersmith Yeah, for sure. Dolmenwood is the only D&D related thing I've bought in.... 10 years maybe. Not counting my copy of Basic Fantasy, since they don't make anything off that. I definitely see myself as in a different niche, so that makes a lot of sense

[@HeikoWiebe]

The data clearly shows that the growth of the OSR does not take away market shares from 5e, but instead from "everything else", which is kind of sad. There are so many interesting things out there that really need more attention.

[@HansMessersmith]

I think its important to note this is not completely true. Im Hans, the guy who did the analysis. All non 5e non OSR stuff has made more money over time. You can see this in the data link Ben provided. So in a sense all boats are rising. The issue is the rate of growth is much lower. The growth rate for "everything else" has benn about 17% per year for the last 10 years compared to at least 40% or 5e and OSR categories.

[@isaacalien]

​@@HansMessersmithif I could ask since you're here; if "everything else" had been subdivided once more into "powered by the apocalypse" and "others" how much of a share would PBTA and its offshoots (like Avatar for instance) have taken up?

[@HeikoWiebe]

@@HansMessersmith Hello, thanks for the response. I was referring to the normalized graphs, and the relative share of "everything else".

[@HansMessersmith]

@@isaacalien i would need to dig into that and im on vacation at the moment, but my instinct is that pbta fraction is almost entirely driven by "blockbuster" projects. That is the baseline is that it is a relatively small portion of everything else funding, but a $200k+ project sends that proportion much higher. Avatar is the obvious example

[@HansMessersmith]

@@HeikoWiebe the main point is that on that chart the proportion going to everything else is lower each year but the whole "pie" is getting much bigger each year. So everything else can still make more money (roughly) each year and still take in less of the overall money

[@thebrothersslim6056]

Fantastic video. Thank you Ben.

[@garyburnett1977]

Thank you for sharing data on this. The point about the newsletter and art seem key to success. The Peter Mullen artwork in Knave is a great and you have the Glatisant. Each time a Kickstarter like it succeeds, smaller ones gain a larger audience. I would be curious to see how this information breaks out between larger and smaller creators on kickstarter in the OSR. I know I have enjoyed both of them, and get the sense that smaller creators in the OSR are also gaining ground on the platform.

[@ruolbu]

Looking forward to the Broken Empires Kickstarter. Same circumstances, YT channel with years of loyal audience in the >10k range, a Newsletter prepared a while back, big new seasons airing right now. It's likely less attractive to the average joe but I hope it gets financed and then some, Trevor deserves it.

[@aaronthomas8190]

Ben, you personally are responsible for my awareness of the OSR and all of its wonderful facets. I will be sending you a bill for all of my subsequent related expenses. I learn about a large percentage of the Kickstarters I back through Facebook ads. They're actually quite well targeted to my niche interests - better targeting sometimes than even Kickstarters own recommendation engine. I agree that mailing lists are more durable and more certain, but I find I can have mailing list fatigue. Although I try to faithfully read your newsletter and Todd Leback's (Third Kingdom Games), I don't have the energy to actually read all of the other lists I'm on. Facebook ads are short, snappy, and have cool drawings of ligers and ninjas!

[@themulticulturalistjames]

Very cool video! I had no idea about all of this growth but it's incredibly exciting to see! I got my Dolmenwood tier backed and am looking forward to what comes next!

[@KiMo7PDC]

This was astonishingly insightful! Thank you Ben for sharing these peeks behind the curtain. I think you’ve mentioned before you were/are / work/ed as teacher and I think that’s s why I identify so strongly with your videos. I really appreciate your content.

[@OverkillJOE1]

Got K1E when you first released it, now I can’t wait for K2E!

[@YorkshireMatt]

I think alot of 40+ year olds are playing again since lockdown aswell.

[@HeikoWiebe]

Confirmed by anecdotal evidence 😊 also my kids found my old 2nd Ed books and went 5e, but I instead looked for stuff that was more like what I played in the days...

[@davidguest2388]

Great video Ben. Questing Beast consistently delivers fantastic insights!

[@lordgrendell]

This is awesome; it's great to have a breakdown Thanks for all you do Ben

[@simontemplar3359]

This is wonderful to see. The indie space is always where I wind up. As always, I appreciate the great work you do. I've learnt a ton and have played sessions with the games you guys made, which is seriously cool. Roll a 20, hit hard. Cheers.

[@alexioskomnenos732]

Something that I think would be interesting to see would be how the totally-not-new edition of D&D will change this I imagine it might have a positive influence on the success of D&D crowd funding campaigns, but not as significant increase to total number of campaigns being made My admittedly very layman's reasoning is that it *is* making changes, but the changes I've heard of don't seem big enough to me to get a lot of creators who may have fallen off to come back Of course I could be completely wrong, either way I'm eager to see the changes to the hobby it will bring - personally I hope that it doesn't shake things up too much because I would love to see other games get more attention and seeing growth in the OSR feels good to me

[@TheAurgelmir]

I know for me the WotC/Hasbro bundle is what made me lose my FOMO and go into the OSR

[@David-lb3tp]

With so many new D&D players since 5e, it's only a matter of time until the ones still playing start asking questions like "where did all this come from?" It's how I discovered OSR, at least.

[@andrewdiaz3529]

11:20 Man, the Avatar Legends portion of that chart is still crazy!

[@chrisderhodes7629]

Kickstarter pledges are impressive but they’re not the same as sales. Is there any information on actual sales?

[@stefanufer5550]

Would be very interesting how the huge block of "other games" is structured. I am especially interested in how is the development of storytelling games opposed to rules heavy games.

[@Frolmaster]

I wonder what effect the release of DnD 5.5 Will have on those numbers...

[@rb2040]

Lamentations of the flame princess is 10 out of 10 the modules are amazing

[@SusCalvin]

We learned what makes huge kickstarter money, more than me and my mates could imagine. Avatar.

[@enishix9635]

great video Questing Beast.

[@galepdx4340]

Fascinating thanks for compiling the information & presenting the analysis

[@Arkanjil]

Excellent Video; thank you for making this

[@TomHillenbrand]

Stellar reporting and analysis, thank you.

[@WrelPlays]

Great analysis, insightful as always.

[@ivaniii9707]

Learning about OSR and it sounds like my idea of hell for a TTRPG. I am glad there is still some games which are more rules heavy around. I honestly thought that 5e is very rules light already and it is very straight forward for levelling.

[@williamobraidislee3433]

It bears mentioning that Kickstarter crowd funding is not the same thing as sales. Crowd funding certainly measures the excitement around a coming product, but sales measure how well that product is ultimately received.

[@QuestingBeast]

Yeah I would love to get data from places like DriveThruRPG and Amazon

[@pewprofessional3181]

Would love to see the sales numbers of TSR D&D from DriveThruRPG

[@direden]

Another important thing to consider... the OneD&D playtest started in 2023 and continued until recently. So, many 5e players were aware that a new version of D&D arrives later this year. Historically, new D&D editions reduce sales the year prior to their release. Im sure this contributed to the recent decrease in 5e related sales.

[@alexabel8010]

Hey, question. I hope you see this. I'm slightly interested in these games you're describing. However, I spent a long time learning the rules for 5e and I positively refuse to spend nearly the same amount of time learning about other systems. I do remember being able to pick up a game of Call of Cthulhu in 15 minutes and have a really good time. If these games don't have a similar learning curve, I don't think I'm willing to get into them. What's the case with these new OSR games regarding this?

[@QuestingBeast]

Most OSR games are much simpler than 5e. You can usually make an OSR character in 5 minutes.

[@weirdguy564]

I only play non-D&D games, always have (started exclusively in Palladium Books games, but now I like lots of stuff, mostly rules light). My brother and his player group in his city play Basic Fantasy, and like it a LOT. Other games I like are Pocket Fantasy, Mini-Six Bare Bones, Chanbara, Basic Fantasy, Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool edition, Kogarashi, and ShadowDark (though I won't use the real time torch timer, as that is silly to me).

[@Dalboni]

@QuestingBeast Very interesting. I am a data guy. May I have access to the dataset and/or understand how was the method you used to collect it? Could you change (or give me access) to change the stacked column chart to a clustered bar chart for a better comparison? Sorry to bother!

[@HansMessersmith]

You can find all the data in the links Ben put into the video description. You should be able to copy the google sheet to do different charts.

[@Dalboni]

​@HansMessersmith Thanks! I scrapped from the HTML view of the sheets for the data. I read the notes and system pages, and even not explicitly said, I suppose the people involved collected the data manually(or web scrapped) from a myriad of sites. Am I correct?

[@HansMessersmith]

@@Dalboni i have an appp.that scrapes kickrtraq into the main sheets one sheet per year. I do classify manually though eg 5e or not which game etc

[@HansMessersmith]

@@Dalboni also i am the only people atm its a one person operation on the data side. For older years (pre 2019? I dont remembet exactly when) it was a one time by hand collection from the existing geeklists. I started the kicktraq scraping around then and do it apmost daily

[@meatbyproducts]

7 years ago Alexandria RPG started hitting events, sharing the history of RPGs and pointing people to non 5e games.

[@squali1930]

I thought it was the simplicity of OSR that drew people in.

[@SusCalvin]

Our entire hobby is still mostly niche publishing compared to cookbooks, true crime books and Paw Patrol booklets. My friends believe a setting sells, not the most clever game system. Especially when we are so interchangable. After the art, people look for playable material like dungeons and regional crawls.

[@gliscaradu1424]

me(3.5e person) Happy for you!

[@freshhands9461]

The fact that creators are able to do this and earn some serious money with the help of their community is simply heart-warming. Well earned and thank you, I dare say :)

[@Minwu325]

growth by itself is not a useful statistical measure of comparison at that difference of size, you do have to slow and then stop growing eventually (despite what some finance professionals might think)

[@drillerdev4624]

It was weird to see Chris' room with natural light. I think another reason for these projects being a big success is that they were designed to be read. Good layout, accessible, and enjoyable. I bet a lot of backers have never actually run a game yet, but had a great time reading the book cover to cover.

[@pericoel21]

I have a mechanical question about Knave! Say, you have 2 INT. Do I add 2 spell books to my character or I wait until I added the standard gear? (so probably I don't have slots left)

[@Itronin01]

Obligatory comment: more Beast! Yes!

[@henriquelima916]

Does newsletter talk to latest generations? I for myself dont use email at all

[@Zoblin161]

What is that strange painting behind?

[@sterlingpratt5802]

Excellent presentation.

[@altersilentium]

How does money compare adjusted for inflation?

[@dphstudioz]

Great info!

[@mjolasgard2533]

Thanks Ben!