How One Character Turned An Entire Fanbase Against The Game!

[@XombieJoker]

Ava was the true villain of the story, pushing through her cringe was the real challenge

[@zachrohler1047]

Unironically

[@MuskelKen]

most real comment I've ever seen

[@sharpasacueball]

The entire game was cringy and the jokes all felt like they were written by a 300 year old alien pretending to be a young person.

[@damiencouturee6240]

She was still better than pretty much all the stuff in Tina's Wonderland. SO many quests with just 5ish minutes of TERRIBLE dialogue. I legit almost quit halfway through that one quest where you help a goblin find her lover or whatever, it was SO BAD. We need Borderlands: All guns no talking edition lol. Cause the combat is fun, the guns are fun, the levels are (mostly) fun and interesting to explore around, but every character and line of dialogue is just... Ugh. No one cares about Maliwan's CEO or whatever, just give me more things to shoot lol.

[@manfredalbrechtfreiherrvon4042]

ya i tapped out after her little sperg out on lillith.

[@thiccfila]

This whole funeral cut scene was obviously written after the fact. Ava doesn't stop being a brat the entire game, but if this scene were in the game at some point she wouldve acted difrferent

[@Officer_Time]

THATS WHAT I SAY, it is so simplese to just draw up some characters and then give them voice lines to resemble voicelines, and everything they say is just what the community wants

[@gadrielvanorion9872]

highy likely it was propably very cheap aswell since they didnt even animate it which if the state of the scene was THAT then its literally 1 more step its also not rly IN the game so its not canon either because as you said ava didnt change after this scene was supposed to play therefore its rly a non existent thing

[@1monkey1typewriter]

100%

[@nunyabeezwax6758]

*sigh* I was hoping these dweebs were going to develop her more and have her not be brat or insufferable later on (hey trauma on a 15 year old is valid...) And then like not do Loralei wrong like that too UGH.

[@Skkra]

FIGURE IT OUT, THICC

[@slipperyslope9545]

How to win the fans back to Borderlands 4: Allude to the fact that Ava had the potential to be the greatest Siren that ever lived, but she never reached that potential because she choked on a pretzel and died. This should all happen off-screen and covered in the first 30 seconds of the game.

[@tdgransit9091]

Something like that being narrated by Marcus would be pretty funny.

[@TheMellowFilmmaker]

So it's basically what they did to Mutt Williams in Indiana Jones Dial of Destiny. I approve.

[@Maethendias]

consider randys current track record not gonna happen

[@inciacci549]

Just write the whole thing off as fanfiction and Ava as the self-insert she's clearly meant to be.

[@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773]

@@inciacci549 that would work. All the events of Borderlands 3 was nothing more than Ava...being a writer trying to sell her book to make ends meet. Only to get disrespected by everyone whose fans of the actual vault hunters. Then her siren powers come in that she can reality shape people's memories. Does it to the original vault hunters who then disappear. Leading you the new team to find them and stopping her before she destroys reality.

[@fuzzwobble]

Imagine taunting psychopaths into killing your mentor, then blaming somebody who wasn't even there. Not even as cope or as misdirection, but actually believing they're at fault (not you) because you're a Mary Sue who can do no wrong. Then, imagine, the story agreeing with you and bending over backwards to have far better characters blow you.

[@elliottgaal9774]

Modern quirky female writing is the cause

[@Nurgling]

@@elliottgaal9774No old people trying to write quirky young people in general ends with cringe

[@jbwolf4]

Yes because actual teenagers are SO good at taking accountability for their actions and mistakes.

[@enumaelish9193]

​@jbwolf4 "It's okay that she's an insufferable little shit because people like that exist" lol

[@robertdouth8979]

@@jbwolf4 They aren't, but intelligent writing doesn't make unaccountable teen idiots the heroes, unless they undergo massive maturing and growth. If you start with an unaccountable teen and end with one, then you've shown a serious lack of understanding of the heroes journey. This isn't just as someone above said, old people writing young people, because that's happened for hundreds of years and been just fine. This is actually a problem with younger people writing young people and thinking you can be the hero of your own story while still remaining selfish and immature. It's why so much of the shitty female writing is not about failing and overcoming, but being OP and just realizing how OP you are and embracing it. It's shit writing whether it's a male or female character. Someone put it best that a Mary Sue isn't just OP, because you can be OP like Superman and still have growth and struggles to overcome, you can still have temptations to overcome. Mary Sue's and their male equivalents are that way because they actually don't have any flaws to overcome or develop through, but it's just that the world around them is flawed and has yet to realize their amazingness. It's the worst kind of wish fulfillment self-insert from writers who lack any kind of self-reflection and think they are just amazing and no one has realized it yet.

[@stevesonny3692]

LoL that funeral scene was never intended. They saw the Ava hate and did that after. It's so obvious. 😂

[@AlastairCreed]

For real, it's genuinely embarrassing.

[@danteinpuro319]

I'm pretty sure krieg was in it at some point, so prolly made after

[@hilotakenaka]

Also I feel like that Ava is far more responsible for Maya’s death than Lilith’s was for Roland’s

[@Red_Steampunker]

It feels rushed. For concept art, It’s so shit. Big movies or games actually put a ton of effort into concept art. As it’s literally some guys specific job. The better the concept art, the easier it is to use and refine. They may have voiced the lines before hand, but who knows. I’ll still hate Ava

[@mauri00098]

@@Red_Steampunker is not concept art is storyboard... All studios have this kind of story visualization, just google it (film/game/animation) + storyboard

[@Flesh_Wizard]

"FIGURE IT OUT LILLITH!" *Ok Ava, get in the airlock*

[@slycooper759]

The game really tried to make us think she's right

[@iis3v3nii]

@@Flesh_Wizard having a bad day but I’ll admit this made me laugh 😂

[@deltaray3012]

To this day, I refuse to believe Ava isn't someone's self-insert that managed to get shoehorned into the story

[@trontosaurusrex9532]

That's my belief too. All of her actions and rewards for her actions just scream self insert OC that's the "bestest ever" always should be looked up to. Ava and the way the devs killed off Maya ruined my enjoyment of the game.

[@bushturkey798]

Oh god, she's Phoebe Waller bridge!

[@vanguardangel6912]

Ironically I’ve read better self inserts on Tumblr

[@andrewtaylor940]

@@deltaray3012 The one name that always springs to my mind when seeing the character is Ashley Burch. A well known Voice Actress with a long history of antagonizing gamers. Who is also the sister of former Borderlands developer/writer (and equally insufferable social media twit) Anthony Burch. I’ve always suspected that the character was created with Ashley in mind. I don’t remember how far BL3 was in development when Anthony and Gearbox/Randy Pitchford parted ways? You have to give Anthony Burch credit. Burch was often so unhinged online and such a social media PR nightmare, that he made Randy Pitchford look like the sane rational adult in the room by comparison. And given what a slimy sleazy bastard Randy is, that’s not easy.

[@nukeninmgt1504]

@@bushturkey798 yeah but isn't waller-bridge's self insert characters all like horrible people that are inconsiderate and are meant to be interpreted that way?

[@majorastorm]

Can't believe people defend Ava because of a "deleted scene" they cleary voiced it last minute with "concept art"

[@bedsidekhair3667]

Ava could’ve been at least tolerable if they kept that deleted scene in the game

[@Managuabrother]

@@bedsidekhair3667 That scene was not deleted.. it only came into existence after the shere amount of hate Ava received. I mean why would it be deleted...? Also why did it only come back after said backlash.. and more importantly this was suppose to make this Brat mature after.. but she practically remained untouched. This was a bandaid fix

[@KneelB4Bacon]

Yeah, this is like a movie fan saying, "But there were deleted scenes! Just imagine that you saw a better movie."

[@AllanBaumer0]

I always figured that scene was written - and then cut and never animated. Iirc, there's evidence of the dudetwin (not gonna look up his name) being the Big Bad and it being cut from the game. It feels as if there were substantial changes to the narrative at some point. Thus, girltwin being the big bad and Ava being Hella annoying instead of showing growth. Because that's how the game seems to me. Like someone in a higher position of authority with less creativity chose to make edits to the script/story. I always assume some of the writers hate that we got this version of Ava/the game versus the one they were trying to write.

[@FezFindie]

@@bedsidekhair3667And that wasn't in their plans, apparently.

[@LongbowDash]

The worst part is that LATER they add the Krieg Clusterfuck DLC. And they tell us that Maya was helping Krieg to become SANE again. Even in the Audio Logs there is a conversation of both Krieg and Maya. "Pretty Lady... Come Back..." "Yes, i Will Big Guy..." And that's it? Krieg will be in Eternal grief for loosing the only person that actually wanted to help him?

[@isauldron4337]

They shouldn't have killed Maya in the first place Erase Ava from existence

[@Faris-Alzalam19]

Let's switch it to Fustercluck, it's much less, harsh.

[@alejandroperez9215]

I find it funny that in universe, Claptrap is despised while Ava gets along with everyone, but out of universe, everyone loves Claptrap but despises Ava..... It's a weird form of mood whiplash....

[@zerrodefex]

A typical case of where the writer's pet is really the scrappy.

[@leowei771]

Claptrap DLC in Pre-sequel genuinely helped his entire backstory and for all his blunders, Claptrap does means well and eats shit when he does mess up. Can't say the same for Ava.

[@fantasticmrmonk]

The whole deal with Veronica was way too far, all he wanted was a friend that was like him and when she’s given life and autonomy (THAT HE GAVE HER) she essentially tears him down for no reason and just stays silent at Moxxis bar being a complete waste. It wasn’t funny, it was just uncomfortably mean spirited and push waaaaaay too far. I know claps supposed to be the series whipping boy, but here it was just upsetting.

[@monk3110]

@@leowei771they flanderize him a bit but Claptrap reminds me of Jerry smith and are what I call a shit test character, They are pure well meaning but not competent You can tell who the bad character are by who mistreats them this is why they explicitly have her be excited to meet claptrap and think he’s cool. Except in the presequel he is still one of the most fun VH in the series

[@monk3110]

@@fantasticmrmonkbecause these faux compassionate narcs think cruelty is funny

[@Notsram77]

It was literally hilarious completing BL3 with Amara, and the whole time everyone pretends you're not a siren, you don't exist, and you didn't contribute to the victory. The ending with everyone fawning over Ava while you stand there silently is like some sort of fever dream because Randy ate some bad nachos.

[@lenshibo]

To be fair, borderlands 2 also doesnt really care about you playing as Maya. LIke jack never tries to capture her to charge the key or really acknowledge that theres ANOTHER siren he could use at any point

[@MrNman333]

​@@lenshibo Huh that's actually a good point and a decent plothole lmao. Maya is plenty as a siren to be used in jacks plans, lillith didn't need to show up and we'd still be screwed.

[@mothichorror446]

I seem to remember the idea behind using Lilith to charge the Vault Key is because she's able to juice up on Eridium to increase her power, whereas Maya hasn't reached that point of her powers yet.

[@lenshibo]

@@mothichorror446 Oh thats true. they talk about that being new to her when introducing Lilith fair point

[@TotallyCluelessGamer]

@@lenshibo part of Jack's dialogue from when he kills Roland and capture Lilith. "...and I've got the most powerful Siren on the planet to do it with." Which supports the idea that Maya might not have been strong enough for his purposes yet.

[@masterchiefofhalo4525]

The thing I remembered the most is how much I hate that they killed Maya is such a stupid way. Roland’s death feltmeaningful because he was the leader.

[@adamdoran1398]

not to mention his death wasn't stupidly written and caught you off guard because you weren't expecting it. same with bloodwings death. like you think you are going into borderlands 2 as this funny go lucky game till blood wings head explodes and roland gets a golf ball side hole in his chest and its like fuck at this point there are actual stakes. meanwhile in bl3 lilith just doesnt tell maya that there are people that can steal sirens powers and kill them so maya dies because of sheer bad writing.

[@matthewlenard8346]

After Maya funeral and you are told to console Ava, I had a Tediore with bullets missing, Totally by accident Instead of hitting the talk button I reloaded my Tediore pistol and threw it directly at Ava's face. 😂

[@cherry9787]

Hero

[@elbowremovalservice]

Ah, yes. "Accident"

[@angeloest94]

My friendss who never know Borderlands story but played because of Coop. When Ava causing Maya got killed. The whole time my friends, Im GoNnA bE a SiReN, Im GoNnA bE a SiReN, Im GoNnA bE a SiReN, Im GoNnA bE a SiReN, Im GoNnA bE a SiReN After Ava arguing with Lilith. My 2 friends proceed to emptied their smg and rockets I laugh so hard and my friend told us, Maybe Maya should teach some Ava some manners and learn to respect someone older than your hairy pussy before poisoning her mind to be Vault hunter! Damn it! 2/10 Games are fun but writing is soooo bad and lazy as hell.

[@bruhgod123]

i wouldnt consider that an accident i would consider it a service for the human race but ok

[@Puddingskin01]

"A happy little accident."

[@Code_6_Beluga]

I remember my first play through, and yelling at my screen for a solid five minutes when Lilth made Ava the new leader sanctuary. Honestly a top 3 worst written characters imo.

[@idavisband]

Should of been Tannes. She is the smartest and a siren along with being there since bl1. But no they turn Tannes the worst thing a wasted character.

[@blackister4768]

@@idavisband She's the smartest on board, a siren, a long member of the crimson raiders AND the siren of technology. Just the reason of her powers is enough to be the leader but no, a random brat that want to play with barbies and shit is better i guess.

[@Harqalada]

​@@blackister4768 It shoyldnt have been either, lilith should should have died at the beggining and a BL2 legacy character like Maya should have taken the role.

[@TheMattsem]

It's funny how there's so many other options

[@Code_6_Beluga]

@@Harqalada this was half of my rant, and how she got maya killed

[@mauldothelastcrafter8194]

"She knows," with a smile on her face as a major character commits suicide for little to no reason. Jesus Christ. You're not supposed to smile when Iron Man sacrifices himself.

[@Sorain1]

Yup. The voice direction there was really bad... unless the intention is to tell the audience "This character wants this death to happen and is secretly gloating over it."

[@w1zz0k12]

Spider man as iron man turns to dust: he knows 😼

[@tiredbunnyy]

I really hated the seen of her smiling when yet another Siren was being taken away from us 😭!!!

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

Me: "I LOST MY BORDERLANDS 2 MAIN CHARACTER FOR THIS... THING!?"

[@Voicegoblin]

Rip. At least my main was only in an echo recording I think. Wait was krieg in a dlc of any kind? I stopped playing after beating the main story because the game sucked but sunken cost fallacy was holding me back

[@epion660]

@@Voicegoblin Yes. The literal Krieg DLC lmao

[@zaclittlejohn2701]

The whole game was like the name of Krieg's dlc. A Fuster cluck.

[@zopler5537]

I remember my friend saying he understands how I felt losing Roland and had to tell him no you got disrespected. Roland died a reasonable death while Maya died for this trash character.

[@KiosukeX]

As a Maya main in BL2 that's EXACTLY how I feel! Especially with how busted you can get by OP levels

[@phiodanny5052]

The funny part Atleast 80% of the players turned the dialog off

[@OhSPY.]

Sure did. 7 play throughs, halfway through an 8th, and not once did I turn on voice ever again after the first beating of the game. Ever.

[@Wearywastrel]

You kinda have to. Playing with the dialogue on is just distracting from the parts of the game that are actually good.

[@TecknoNinja]

I did the same thing for BL2 but thats only because handsome jack is fucking annoying twat and kinda ruined my immersion every time he jackass talked, wish we could have something like in mass effect where you could just end the com on people, honest that would be kinda funny.

[@Bruhtatochip742]

I'm asking out of amusement. Please give me a source for that. I want a metric for how out of touch Gearbox, or whoever wrote it, is.

[@jollyplaguedoctor7512]

Yup. Forgot what it was like to hear dialogue in this game. I’ll briefly switch it on sometimes during the atlas HQ mission just to dear the maliwan heavies and commandos but right after I turn it all the way back down to zero every single time without hesitation. Feel bad for all the voice actors honestly. Has to be such a massive putrid stain on their work resume.

[@Kitten2642]

I completely forgot I even played this game…I remembered rage quitting when Ava was yelling at Lilith, who wasn’t even there, for a death SHE caused. I know I beat it, but I seemed to have blocked that game from memory…

[@BravoRox]

@@Kitten2642 I'm currently playing and as a non fan of the series, I had to stop and question what was going on. Like did I miss something. Did I blink to long? What happened. Oh, bad writing. That's what happened. She becomes a siren and then acts all smug and confident. Eva did absolutely nothing, my level 30 Flk4 commited 4p crits to defeat that boss. Not this Twitter insert character!

[@anotherbig976]

Stuff like this is why Handsome Jacks VA improvising is the best lines in the game

[@Xderda]

His VA also plays the role of Perfect Cell in DBZ.

[@ginew07]

Stuff like Handsome Jack is EXACTLY why her character exists bro. You guys made them think it was cool.

[@hiopy8131]

@@ginew07 but here’s the thing handsome jack was actually cool, a master mind that knew how to pull the strings to benefit him and slowly over the course of borderlands 2 we stop his plans and start seeing him break his character before final snapping at the end before dying, Ava had absolutely none of that it still baffles me how they messed up this bad

[@Grevane16]

@@ginew07 Yeah... if what they took away from Handsome Jack's popularity was "cringe is cool" and ignored every ounce of charismatic voice acting, well orchestrated game-long plot/character development, and fulfilling story arc... well, that says a lot more about the new writing team than it does about "what the fans like".

[@honestkyn718]

​@@ginew07why do you think people like Handsome Jack,?

[@matheusmazzocato8444]

As a Maya main on BL2, the way they ended her life to give development to a char we barely knew let alone sympathize with is just atrocious. Also, Ava never had that "ops, I learned from my mistakes" arc, and won everything in the end. Talk about Mary Sue.

[@wolfsokaya]

Im pretty sure,that the writers didnt like Maya and wanted to give players a character updated for modern audience.

[@skydonkey9515]

Don’t forget when she magically learned how to use her newly acquired siren powers, it definitely adds to her Mary Sue status lmao

[@matheusmazzocato8444]

@@skydonkey9515 yeaah, who needs years of training and ancient books anyways? Damn that was painful to watch

[@skydonkey9515]

@@matheusmazzocato8444 honestly I wish that fake game over death screen scene was canonical 😂😂😂

[@cyberrenegadex]

@@wolfsokaya strong female leads don’t exist unless ‘they’ made it. BL3 is nothing but hot garbage

[@meatbicycle2273]

The fact that kreig wasn't even there for maya's death makes me even more angry.

[@meligoth]

Tiny Tina was quirky with loads of personality, but her quirkiness came from trauma from not only losing her family, but losing her next father figure in Roland. Her bombastic demeanor was not for the "look at me I'm cute" trope, but a coping mechanism from experiences that would have broken the minds of most people. That is a character with depth, unlike Eva.

[@bushturkey798]

Laugh to keep from cry, it's all just a joke! I could see an extreme version of that view to be coping mechanism for a broken mind.

[@pokesmosh07]

I completely agree, even when I was finding it funny when Tina is just acting crazy, there was always a tinge of feeling bad for her because you are aware of what she went through and the environment she grew up in. Added a lot more depth to her character who I thought was already well written with her dialogue in b2. Whereas Ava isn’t really even a single note character, more like a half note, what you see on the surface is exactly what you get, and it’s not even likable lol

[@fz7788]

Nah shes cringe idc if there was some backstory i hated all her scenes

[@mavielor7394]

@@meligoth Tiny tina is kinda cringe as well

[@Christmas_Johan]

@@mavielor7394 Tiny Tina is just considerably overplayed to death.

[@OmegaX9]

Eva and the Calypsos were definitely a problem, but they were really just a symptom of the game’s biggest flaw: the story does not want you there. In spite of everything you do the characters rarely treat you as an equal, and the story takes control away from you in critical moments because if you had control then it would be very easy to avoid these railroaded story beats. Compare Maya’s death cutscene in this game to when Jack kills Roland and grabs Lilith in Borderlands 2: in that scene Jack doesn’t draw attention or waste time bragging, he just kills someone from an angle you couldn’t see him approaching from, then collars Lilith. The whole cutscene takes about a minute, and it’s only 10 seconds from Jack killing Roland to Jack holding Lilith hostage. In the Calypso and Maya scene, the twins are there for 90 seconds before they even attack anyone. That’s time Maya could’ve used to get Eva to safety, or time you could’ve been shooting the twins in the head. So many scenes in 3 do their best to make you as unimportant to their plot as possible, while holding you hostage to watch.

[@ashleighchance9420]

That's true now that I bother to remember the story. The game got me thinking "am I playing as an actual character or just a moving prop?"

[@archersterling6726]

This is a great point. Go back even more, Lilith lost her powers fighting alone and we... Watched?

[@MystMagus]

This, this, this! Every time we exited a vault and then watched a cutscene of the other characters being incompetent during me and my brother's playthrough I would joke about how we were just standing on the sidelines, pointing and laughing (doing our best to cope). It's farcical.

[@liambowman5247]

@@MystMagusI was so mad at this. I was playing with a friend and every time this happened it would enrage me to a point where I had to stop for a bit

[@theguybehindyou4762]

How many of the original writers were involved with BL3?

[@Ricecooka]

This is like the Simpsons replacing Homer with Poochie and also Poochie being the one that killed Homer.

[@nautilusguts]

The worst part of the entire game is the ending, where all of a sudden the Crimson Raiders are just GIVEN to Ava for no discernable reason whatsoever. Who the hell thought that people would enjoy that?

[@Asmodeus-D4rk]

I kinda hate how BL3 treats the player like a non-existant being. Like, I'm here, my RPG got ammo and three annoying brats are standing in front of me, let me rip!

[@Supyloco]

Gearbox: can I copy your homework? Disney LucasFilm: yeah just change it up a bit so it doesn't look obvious you copied.

[@Amanitaland]

@@Asmodeus-D4rk Its not really an RPG though

[@Asmodeus-D4rk]

@@Amanitaland I meant the bazooka

[@borrachogato2646]

Would be pretty funny if the next game starts with the crimson raiders gone because they didnt want to be led by a child.

[@plastikloser]

Avas attitude is why airlocks were made

[@bruhgod123]

as javik would say "where is the airlock so i may throw you out of it"

[@elmstreetsurvivor1866]

All Protheans out there are collectively screaming in approval.

[@guilhermehank4938]

Javik wouldn't have tolerated Ava's BS for one second

[@bruhgod123]

@rmehank4938 he would have thrown her out the airlock the moment he saw her

[@michaelbarrett8141]

Can someone create a Video about that? I would love to watch it.

[@loathbringer]

My favorite part about characters yelling at each other about failures and whatnot is that if they would just get out of my way I would melt the bad guys in like 5 seconds.

[@Crow_Rising]

The thing that makes the whole thing so much worse for me is the buildup leading to Borderlands 3. Borderlands 2's main campaign ended on this big epic cliffhanger regarding the surviving original Crimson Raiders and the new Vault Hunters finding a map of vaults across the galaxy, then the DLC taking place after this was largely character development. Then we got Pre-Sequel and Tales from the Borderlands. Starting with Tales, we got introduced to a new rag tag group who managed to bumble themselves into the thick of things, getting themselves gradually more directly involved with the events of the main series plot. The main two characters (Rhys and Fiona) are strongly hinted at in the game to be major characters in the future, with Rhys going on to become the head of Atlas and Fiona going on to become a proper Vault Hunter. In Pre-Sequel, we get the backstory for Handsome Jack explaining how he turned into the unhinged tyrant that he did, and between both Pre-Sequel and Tales we start getting the implication that Athena is going to be a major character in the future as well, with her getting written into direct connection to both Jack's rise to power in this game and his ultimate AI undoing at the hands of Rhys in Tales. Pre-Sequel also ends off with a mysterious guardian character who we meet earlier in the game but never get any real answers on warning us that war is coming and that we're going to need all the Vault Hunters we can get. Putting all of this together, we have the Crimson Raiders finding a vault map of the galaxy, Rhys, Fiona, and Athena getting written into the story as major characters moving forward, and a prophecy of a coming war that demands for as many vault hunters as possible to handle the coming threat. The table has been set for Borderlands 3 to be the most epic chapter in Borderlands' story yet. Time passes and Borderlands 3 for a long time is little more than a rumor. Eventually the confirmation drops and we start seeing gameplay. The gameplay, graphics, and sound design all seem very impressive. There's the new ledge grab mechanic, the new slide mechanic, guns and vehicles are looking more impressive than ever, hype is reaching an all time peak for the series. It's looking more and more like BL3 is going to become something of a cultural event, all the signs are pointing towards it being a fantastic game worthy of being the successor to BL2's fame and praise. The game comes out and the story is complete and utter dog water. The main antagonists are clout chasing teenagers broadcasting everything they do for attention, Maya's death and Ava's rise as her successor is one of the most mishandled character arcs in all of fiction, Rhys is turned into an absolute joke, Fiona is nowhere to be seen, Athena is nowhere to be seen, and the prophecy seems to have taken a severe backseat. The disappointment is immeasurable, and I ended up being let down to the point I couldn't even be bothered to continue into the DLC. I will go so far as to defend Pre-Sequel as a surprisingly solid game despite its flaws, but this... Despite everything set up just right for it to succeed they somehow managed to blow it. From what I've seen of New Tales, the writing is only downhill from here. BL2 was a game that also featured a main character's death. Roland was a beloved character by fans of the series, and his death at the hands of Handsome Jack was shocking and horrifying when it happened. The writers at the time played the scene completely straight, and treated his death with the respect it deserved with only a tiny bit of comic relief at the end of the funeral. Comparatively speaking, Maya's death gets treated as nothing more than a stepping stone for Ava to ascend up the ranks and eventually gain her powers, none of it feeling deserved along the way. It's the kind of terrible writing you'd expect to see in some teenager's self insert fan fiction, not in an official product.

[@RamenLlama]

I am forever upset at the direction this franchise is taking. Borderlands 4 is gonna need one fuck of a bandaid.

[@rebewtinydino2572]

The dlc was fantastic especially the last bit they should focus on the war

[@sadfatdragon9529]

@@RamenLlama Borderlands 4 is gonna have to spend most of its story "fixing" what Borderlands three broke.

[@beef8261]

its funny to think as well that Ava is the reason for Maya's death all because she wouldnt listen and yet she doesnt give a crap. at least Maya got to rest with Psycho from BL2

[@efxnews4776]

The pre sequel was my entry into Borderlands franchise and it is one of the better games i ever played, and Athena one of the coolest videogame protagonists ever made too... The difficulty was insane, and yet i was addicted to that game! Then i played B2 and Maya was my favorite... Then i played B3 and the only thing i remember is that Maya died because of a little bitch that has no place in the whole franchise.

[@dukethepizzaman1191]

What confused me about borderlands 3 was that they pulled the "Oh yeah, uh, tannis was a siren all along btw."

[@lanceuppercut6168]

Ikr?! That was such a cop out. Surprised more people aren't mentioning that.

[@coltonwilkie241]

How about how useless Sirens as a whole are now? They do nothing in the game and then they die and on top of that, the most useless characters then become Sirens. Troy was the only one that wasn't a total disappointment and I don't know if he even counts.

[@androidmk5987]

It always made me full just "Uh...we are just moving pass that?"

[@NyxiLovely]

Just gonna drop by an say that it's explained that sirens choose who inherits their powers. I'm not defending it,tbh I think it makes sirens as a whole alot worse an less interesting.

[@giovannifitzpatrick1987]

To be fair, if you played Borderlands 1, it was clear that Tannis was a Siren. It wasn't something they pulled out of thin air unless you ONLY began playing with BL2.

[@d962831]

Can almost guarantee she was a self insert of one of the writers

[@pieraldodiaz2868]

"We get what's probably the worst handled main character death in videogame history" Arkham Batman: Hello, yes, that would be I

[@Flourikum]

Nah, most boring and nonchalant? 100%.

[@xdomeman]

Joel: Naw son, me.

[@TheeOK1]

Arkham bats end was just boring and idiotic

[@preston4624]

batmans was just lame. Mayas was wrong. It was ava fault, Ava gets no characters development to learn from her mistakes, and at the end of the game is told she was right the whole time, congrats you are the new leader of the group. I cant stand Ava.

[@gentlerain3245]

"We get what's probably the worst handled main character death in videogame history" Suicide Squad Batman: Hello, yes, that would be I ^ corrected to DC's new low bar on Batman, can't have just one!

[@iamsinistar8971]

If Handsome Jack was still alive he'd play Ava and the Calypso Twins like pawns and trick them into opening vaults for him. Then watch with a bag of pretzels as the creatures in those vaults ate them.

[@quademasters249]

He really was the best bad guy.

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

Yeah. He was a solid villain, but part of what made him great to watch was how much of a screwup Jack was, in a way that was consistent with his character and his world view and motivations. There was something genuine about his entitled, hero complex trillionare arse that made his petty nonsense mildly endearing, but always punctuated by the fact that Jack is always shown to be extremely dangerous and willing to do *anything* to accomplish his goals. Even sacrificing his fearsome bodyguard which under most circumstances would've ended Sanctuary with it's destruction, and basically turned his own daughter into tool for his own ambitions, planting her on a barren world as a form of twisted love. He might've been a petty arsehole, but he was also pretty formidable and *always* dangerous. The other thing is that his grudge against the players always felt personal. Sure, in the beginning it was entirely fractious, but by killing Angel we had made his battle against us really personal. I never really felt a moment of "wait, why does this guy have a grudge against us again?" Of course, like the Joker, the Handsome Jack Gambit only works once. Trying to recreate that vibe by trying to make equally quirky villains just didn't land for me. It has to be something fairly different.

[@iamsinistar8971]

@@lordbiscuitthetossable5352 I wouldn't say they were quirky. It's more like the devs wanted to recreate that love to hate personality that Jack had with The Calypso Twins but forgot to add the love part and now you just want to kill them so they'd finally shut the fuck up.

[@spcwild]

shit wasn't that the point of ai jack in presequel becoming realized in Tales from the Borderlands? i was expecting Digi Jack and a robot army (supplied by the jackpot dlc)

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

@@spcwild I think the Tales of Borderlands intended to bury Jack as an antagonist forever while giving him a last tip of the hat. If someone else had desired to find his immortality through sheer force of personality, it would be Handsome Jack. I would've been disappointed if he had been in Borderlands 3. This universe has enough mega corporations that someone like him falling would just give rise to someone more cunning.

[@Klathis]

I’ll never forgive Ava, and by extent, the writers, for getting Maya killed. I remember clear as day when my friends and I played through that mission. Maya was my main in BL2, and I was so excited every mission Maya was on screen in BL3. That cutscene left me and my friends in dead silence for a good couple of minutes cause they knew she was my favorite and it was only broken when I said something like “I don’t want to play this anymore.” I lost all genuine interest in BL after that. Screw Ava, man.

[@thebalzman8440]

I think another major problem with the BL3 story is that every time there is a cutscene the player characters disappear and are not acknowledged. This makes us the player feel like we're suddenly disconnected from a game that we're supposed to be the heroes of.

[@eddierolmaster28]

Exactly, and remember, Amara is a SIREN too

[@Flipomat1]

That's the case in BL1-3. The story happens, with or without you.

[@bombshell361]

​@@Flipomat1 not really in borderlands 2 or at least cutscenewise. You were there and acknowledged as a person. That cutscene where Jack take control of Lilith and makes her try and kill you.

[@Psyonyxe]

​@@bombshell361 When playing as maya, a siren, in bl2 you never really get acknowledged either. It's a huge plothole imo when the bad guys are going after sirens yet they never come after you.

[@Red_Steampunker]

@@Psyonyxethey do actually mention it occasionally. But it’s like being a healer and someone is dying storywise. But at least we were actually in the scenes. BL3 just ignored us. Sure BL2 acted like it’s only 1 hunter or all of them whenever. It still was nice to be told a good job. Instead of others getting the credit.

[@Ars-Nova258]

“Played a small role… and was loved by everybody.” Wainwright Jakobs?

[@bjornskivids]

That storyline was far better than I was expecting it to be.

[@kamchatmonk]

I don't mind Wainwright Jakobs as a character, but gayification of Hammerlock was pretty sudden.

[@Wearywastrel]

​@@kamchatmonkhammerlock was always gay, in bl2 the boyfriend was the guy that had his hand taken by the stalker. The really dumb thing is that the writers don't know how to convey emotions at all. Their portrayal of hammerlock and jakobs is like having that one shallow friend whose only personality trait is "I have a girlfriend". It's pathetic.

[@Ars-Nova258]

@@kamchatmonk “An old Boyfriend of mine, by the name of Taggart…” Hammerlock, Borderlands 2.

[@Lupirio23]

@@kamchatmonk @Wearywastrel Yeah always been there, cannot recall the dialogue that points it out initially but what I do remember I think in the 'Mad Moxxi and the Wedding Day Massacre' DLC; Gaige says she really likes Hammerlock, if only he wasn't batting for the other team.

[@Senumunu]

Borderlands 3 story is what you get when your whole writing team binge watches Netflix originals as their writing inspiration

[@macrussell78]

The fact they thought shoehorning in a kid sidekick like it was a Saturday morning cartoon was a good idea will never not baffle me.

[@Mikhail210]

Like the teenage turtle show and Ghostbusters show.

[@kierannelligan]

"Sanctuary is yours Ava!" Not the vault hunter currently helping you, not mordicai or brick, not Tannis, not Zer0 or any of the other gen 2 hunter, but the immature teen that got maia killed?

[@JoeExoticReddo]

Right? I actually had a story a while back where Lilith actually gave sanctuary to Zane and to teach Ava how to be a leader while Tannis or Amara taught her how to be a siren and when Zane retires, then Ava could take over as leader of the raiders

[@okaythen7360]

Or even Ellie who has built the skip, Moxxi even

[@LikeARo55]

Tiny Tina: "Am I a joke to you?"

[@TallWartortle]

"consol her?!??!? Consol her?!? She shouldnt have been there!!!! If it wasnt for her maya would still be alive! Its literally her fault!"

[@MrJordwalk]

During the side quest on Athena wherein she panics about Beans reading her diary over the ECHO, I thought: 'YOU DESERVE THIS. MAYA'S DEAD BECAUSE OF YOU"

[@サイバー狼]

It also doesn't help that in any of the cutscenes the four playable characters are treated as if they never existed

[@foffinfruiter3575]

Also one of the other huge problems in the story were the Calypso Twins. Tyreen was annoying, unlivable and had a lame reason to be a villian. Troy on the other had everything set up to become the villian or for us to kill him off. The story had potential but was handled poorly.

[@BiggestChungus21]

What? Troy was the worst part. Atleast Tyreen had a good look. Troy was the masturbator. But I really did check out of the story because I was playing it with my brother and we were breezing through it. By the time I tasted Mayhem the game just clicked and now I hate the BL3 story more than any nerd who thinks borderlands need a good story. Borderlands need a skip story option or a way into tvhm every new playthrough ideally with mayhem options unlocked.

[@BigWheel.]

​@@BiggestChungus21 you're reasoning for tyreen being better is you think she looks better than troy.... uhhhhh ok... lol. Troy got sharted on repeatedly throughout the game, he also needs tyreen to live, and tyreen basically Akins him to a parasite/tumor at one point. Imagine if Troy turned the tables on her after he absorbed mayas powers and trapped tyreen so he could leech off of her and become the penultimate bad guy. The setup was all there. They could've had it during his boss fight where he seizes tyreen to try and finish you off before sacrificing her to save his skin and transform himself into the destroyer. Tyreens whole arc is she's got issues because she felt neglected. (This is in spite of her being very popular and beloved by many in game) nobody likes Troy or really even mentions him. He's actually being neglected. His anger wouldn't be from a place of manufactured drama to get attention, he would actually have reasonable motive to betray tyreen and lash out towards typhon. Tyreen blindly wants power, Troy on the other hand doesn't like being 2nd fiddle to tyreen. Idk, the few moments of character development he had were pretty good, I think he was 100% wasted potential and that my plot is better than what we did get.

[@BiggestChungus21]

@@BigWheel. oh i agree with troy being wasted potential. It is hilarious that he is a parasite. But what if he tried to usurp power against tyreen and then tyreen is forced to kill him. That would be hilarious, and then blames the vault hunter and the raiders for her and her brother's decisions or something they were building that up they just forgot. Lol. Or just not have him at all because he looked like he being built into something but they forgot somehow. But I don't really care, I zoned out because borderlands stories were never good to begin with and we're all just playing them for gameplay. For sure the twins shouldn't have been influencers that was dumb. I do feel bad for the Ava character. She should've just immediately inherited the siren powers and for sure shouldn't have been made the new leader of the raider because she's a kid number 1 but more importantly wouldn't it be cool if she's the next playable siren? Wouldn't it be cool if a next character was introduced before? That's what makes the presequel characters cool somewhat. There were just a lot and I mean a lot of missteps with the story. Plus the game isn't at all balanced in that mode. That's my biggest gripe. They balanced it for mayhem 10 but that sucked and just lucked into mayhem 11. They lucked into making the best borderlands game because mayhem 11 wasn't even on launch right? I played it late. They should've just had a skip story button to fast track you to the actual game lol

[@mrbonlino]

I always subscribed to the idea that Troy was supposed to be the BBEG overall, and usurp Tyreen after realising he can leech siren powers. So he would plot to take Tyreen's power, along with firehawk powers, and eventually want to try to assemble all the siren powers into one being, making him final boss worthy. And then, once the vault hunters defeat Troy, the siren powers are now erased from borderlands lore due to how they were unnaturally taken instead of bestowed elsewhere. But I think with the movement of girlbossing and fem empowerment, the writers felt they couldn't afford the potential backlash of having the main female villain be outshined by a male villain, so had to switch gears towards the end of the writing process. Thats not to say its the movements FAULT, just that i feel the writers werent conscious of it until towards the end of the story where they realised how bad of a light it seemed to look. That's how I feel couldve been why the couple of hours of borderlands 3 is kind of mishmashy in my opinion

[@BiggestChungus21]

@@mrbonlino considering how the designs looked, Tyreen was always the main villain. Sure she was saddled with Troy and Troy wasn't anything special and shouldn't have existed. But he still some potential. I thought he was gonna attack Tyreen and Tyreen just mops him and absorbs his power and she's gonna somehow blame it on anyone but themselves. If they weren't gonna do anything with Troy he should've been cut and Ava got the Siren powers immediately so people wouldn't be pissed about Lilith's choice when freaking Tannis, Ava, Claptrap, and the VHs were the only options. Who was she supposed to pick? Lol. But if she was somehow a siren after Maya's death if Troy didn't exist and she was a playable character in the next game then it will soften the blow. So Troy the masturbator kinda ruined everything. Nobody likes a scheming SIMP but a scheming SIMP with sister issues is even worse lol.

[@CharlesFroehler]

The Krieg DLC was originally supposed to be Ava's, but Gearbox got the message.

[@seansmith5896]

“Worst handled main character death in video game history.” Let’s not forget how calm Krieg, a *psycho*, was about it when he got his own DLC after the woman he loved died.

[@an_otherwanderer]

With how they treated Maya I don't think there were any fucks left regarding Krieg, just make some cashgrab DLC and all good.

[@archersterling6726]

​@@an_otherwandererWait, I literally just played Krieg's DLC and it was awesome

[@tigeryumyums9407]

@@an_otherwandererThe Krieg DLC was definitely not a simple cash grab. It had a fantastic story, wholesome moments and incredible visuals

[@tompatompsson]

I would have changed my review score to 5/10 if Krieg had made a pretty pinata out of Ava.😇

[@JMac413410]

Krieg should have turned Ava into the shiniest meat bicycle for being responsible for Maya's death.

[@s3m4jno5w4d]

B3 was a total disaster from a writing and story perspective, I ended up turning the voices off such was the cringe. How could you go from 2 to that? Did someone have a stroke? I had already turned everyone off by the time I got to Eva so she wasn't anything to me. I actually really didn't like Tina until her backstory audiologs

[@bland6004]

I keep the voice setting off too 😂

[@nunyabeezwax6758]

The firing of anyone not woke/cutting of staff and writers to hire "adjuncts" or rip off people on the cheap with disgusting rushed deadlines for cash grabs is how :(

[@boogit9979]

BL2 and TPS lead writer didnt work on BL3

[@flareonguy7922]

Jamie Marchi from that anime localizer drama last month is a gearbox writer, wouldn't be surprised if Ava is one of her famous self inserts. I dunno who made the character, but its easier for me to blame her since she loves to go off on twitter and paint a target on herself by attacking fans.

[@s3m4jno5w4d]

I did wonder if this may have been one of the first casualties of wokeism

[@KahranRamsus]

Ava inspired more hate than the actual "villains" of the game. The Calypso's were basically just Twitch commentors that were doing their worst handsome jack impressions. I would only play the game again if there was a mod that removed all three of them from the game. Because they ultimately don't matter. We can only hope that Borderlands 4 retcons Borderlands 3 out of canon. Although, they'd be lucky if anyone bought BL4 at this point.

[@locutos8397]

After Maya's death scene, I went to ClapTrap and said "Perhaps i treated you too harshly".

[@alreadyblack3341]

And all steve says is Hey-o! *"Hey-o!"* SHUT THE FUCK UP

[@danniton9831]

Thats what I thought too. The whole thing with Ava made me realised that claptrap is annoying but also funny while Ava is just completely annoying and despicable.

[@Hottactioncop]

Never got why people hated claptrap, i always pictured him as like spongebob

[@honestkyn718]

@@Hottactioncop Claptrap is basicly funny... bit also really sad once you get everything. He might be an idiot, and egotistical.but he has no free will. And he at least is helpful sometimes.

[@BGRANT777X]

I never got claptrap hate, he was a great comedy relief character.

[@Ed_man_talking9]

because who the hell DOESNT love the textbook definition of a Mary sue?

[@AMightyViciousOlogsFriend]

Please care to explain how she is a Mary Sue. Because a Mary Sue by definition has no problems, must always succeed all on her own and makes the story revolve around her. Ava is a fangirl who hyped her idols up, doesn't mind being helped and barely has a toll on the plot. By "textbook definition" she very much is not a Mary Sue.

[@Ed_man_talking9]

@@AMightyViciousOlogsFriend really? i thought a marry sue was just a character that everyone loves for no good reason.

[@thomasgrieve1924]

​@@Ed_man_talking9doesn't surprise me in the slightest you don't know what it means Because it's a stupid fucking term people use to shit on any character they dislike It's as overused as "woke"

[@noctisthedevious]

​@BigAutisticDaddy No and I'm not even sure how that would even come about. Mary Sues and Gary Stues are literally supposed to be perfect characters with no flaws that are often seen in fan fiction and while they are often wish fullfilling self-inserts, they aren't entirely synonymous. Writing a character that's meant to be loved by the audience is a different trope entirely. If you meant loved by the narration for no reason, yeah a Mary Sue can be loved for no reason, but it's mostly just an undeveloped character/poor writing than an actual trope.

[@theandychrist2599]

Not so textbook lol

[@mouseymousey02]

Lmao, the 'Ava's diary' quest is one of the worst most amateurish fanfiction-level attempts to make a character sympathetic ever

[@jeremyhester3971]

No, that isn’t real teens, or real humans are. It’s how people whose only exposure to humanity, is watching thing written by Joss Whedon thinks teens are. And why everyone hates it. Theses people protect their own narcissism.

[@mikexf1647]

Hey. I like Joss Whedon! With 6 feet of sand over his head...

[@aethertoast4320]

​@@mikexf1647thought that you were gonna say that it was a quote from Joss Whedon himself there.

[@Ardyrezv]

I totally forgot that loser even existed.

[@DeNihility]

...who..?

[@AzayBae]

@@DeNihilityDude who directed Avengers 1, 2 and Buffy. He turned out to not be a good male feminist like he claimed to be and was creepy and abusive to actresses on his productions. He also cheated on his wife a lot while filming Buffy, likely with actresses under his employ. Even while making the Avengers films he was apparently being creepy with production girls half his age, sleeping with some and not saying he was in a relationships at that point for example.

[@maineman5757]

I played BL3 with 3 friends. We all hated Ava. 2 friends quit mid way through because the story and everything just wasn't hitting right. We loved BL2 and played it religiously.

[@NguyenPham-bl6qm]

BL3 story is dogsh*t. At least its DLCs are kinda good though. Hi fellow Maine man.

[@BladeDevil]

We lost a cool, hot af siren and we got a gremlin in return.

[@nid7819]

The worst thing with Ava is that she’ll probably be the siren in Borderlands 4 💀

[@baconsir1159]

Hope not. Gearbox hopefully noticed by now that EVERYONE hates Ava.

[@rileyleal]

Unfortunately you're probably right, writers now will just double down on bad ideas more often then not because they've been taught to view fans that don't like their work with disdain.

[@lenshibo]

Well considering they decided shes "the leader of sanctuary" or whatever, i doubt it. They wouldnt just have one of the playable characters also the leader of everyone. She will probably be Lilith 2 and stand around doing nothing but make you talk to her whenever you do anything to progress the story

[@Zesterson]

i was LITERALLY JUST THINKING ABOUT THIS!!! i was like fuck dude... if Ava is the playable siren in BL4 I'm immediately refunding the game.

[@lenshibo]

@user-gt7vi9jm9m If they make her playable, regardless of what they do, nobody will ever pick her. Her best hope to be redeemed is a "heros death" type of deal at the start of the game.

[@MonochromaticPrism]

The cut funeral scene is fake. It perfectly answers multiple community critiques in a single scene. It fixes so many writing issues, in fact, that it is completely and utterly insane to cut. Literally any other cutscene in the entire game would have been better to cut. That's how important it is. It was also released in the most shallowly shilled dlc set in BL history. It's fake, and was only made after the fact because they were just starting to realize how badly they had fucked up.

[@disposable3167]

at least that means they understand the hate and will probably handle the character better in the next game

[@theinternetsightseer2935]

@@disposable3167 Or even better, yeetus deletus.

[@lilithspicynugget]

@@disposable3167 u really believe that? Lol This a complete shitshow

[@yannikatsafados2726]

Borderlands 4 intro. Marcus: so you want to hear stories of the vault, well too bad I’m just here to tell you that Ava died offscreen to some no named bandit and that we’re having a party to celebrate.

[@joshuabean9409]

It's all justified if she's our next villain.

[@CymbalMonkey]

I think we are all counting on that. I think it would be a huge redemption for the series.

[@themonsterunderyourbed9408]

Never going to happen. They've gone full woke. The next bad guy will probably be orange with funny hair.

[@joshuabean9409]

@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 Yeah I know. It would be an awesome turn around now i'm just saying.

[@michaelbarrett8141]

​@@themonsterunderyourbed9408then it belongs into next Shredder.

[@RaspberryHugs]

@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 not surprised to hear someone blame "wokeness" after something that has nothing to do with it. you're so cringe

[@quinnlee-miller9792]

The one writer defending Ava like she was a real person gives me Empress Theresa vibes

[@D-Skotes]

That was certainly one of the books of all time.

[@jordanbaird8681]

What's Empress Theresa

[@jawwer12]

@@jordanbaird8681 I cecommend just typing it into the KZbin searchbar, and watching the Down the Rabbit Hole / Frederick Knudsen video on it.

[@frostbite_1244]

@@jordanbaird8681 Just look up Krimson Rogue's review of it, but it's definitely a case study of insanity and creepiness, that's for sure.

[@Thelegend_2121]

“Master vault hunter what are we going to do?” *summons iron bear*

[@Honed-]

they killed a fan fav for her... like... lol... nah, they f**ked up.

[@codename1176]

Like in walking dead when they had Negan kill that fan favorite they lost millions of viewers

[@Honed-]

but everyone knew that was going to happen, what made me stop watching was when they,,, spoilers killed ricks son for shock value, i was like.. "nah im done." stopped watching it then and there.@@codename1176

[@geekinoffamolly8230]

Tlou

[@MyxTheMedic]

I feel like no one ever mentions the fact that Elpis was full of people. I always wanted to return to Elpis but Gearbox was like: NO.

[@Legoman775]

Ava was horrible but the twins made me hate the story so much more... I get they are supposed to be a parody and we are "supposed to hate them" but they are so destructive to the story. Everytime they talked i just rolled my eyes and wanted the game to end. In contrast to Jack, everytime he talked i smiled a bit and loved his dialogue. You dont need an over the top villain, just one thats relatable like realistic goals or a terrible event in their life that set them on their path. Something anything, but we got Ava and the twins instead... ugh

[@Agelis]

I was sofa king angry when Maya died, she was my main in Borderlands 2... also the Twins? granted they had _enourmas_ shoes to fill, Jack was a monster, but he was hilarious

[@Mikhail210]

Lol sofa king I haven't heard that since ATHF. arise chicken arise

[@kaiman3089]

Ava feels likes a cheape overpowerd oc whose supposed to be perfect

[@cannandreas]

A Mary Sue

[@MrJerichoPumpkin]

@@cannandreasmore like a Mary Sh*t

[@guardianwaldo]

A modern women

[@cyberrenegadex]

Not *feels*, but is a cheap OP OC. I’ve read fanfics with better writing than this dumpster fire.

[@coltonwilkie241]

Definitely a self insert from one of the ugly women writers.

[@kap1618]

Remember in Life is Strange, and how Chloe yells at Maxx for worrying about the well-being of a suicidal girl? Later, she admits you were right to ignore her. The devs saw how awful that made her look.

[@aidancallaghan]

Chloe was always a dick but I still enjoyed her character 😆 that scene always pissed me off tho

[@josh678595]

I maintain that Ava was designed by some higher up at gearbox's wife or daughter

[@SeeMyEvil]

My guy. Yes that's my hunch. Just like the kids it was basically given the success. It's likely the reality for the person that played Ava. Trying to set them up for success. There are so many unknown. New faces you've never seen or heard of whenever you see a passing of the torches and other movies or TV shows. Someone with influence is trying to set someone else up with easier success. Just like when game developers tried developing a new game with cool mechanics but realized there's nothing big. The normally rely and reach out or be forced. To implement a well-known established IP. Into the game they get it to sell.

[@pajamapantsjack5874]

Directors cut scenes were the biggest psyop. They 1. Clearly were made after the fact because Ava sucked so hard, and 2. Didn’t 100% fix Ava like so many BL youtubers said it did. It’s the biggest cope I’ve seen in any community to believe gearbox weren’t just trying to damage control their shittilly written game

[@mrshadow4007]

Playing throuythe segments with Ava was like golding a grenade covered in barbed wire.

[@nicholaspaterson]

I don't even think Borderlands 4 can save the franchise at this point because you know she's gonna be the siren playable character in it.

[@shalucard107]

Omg i forgot about that possibility!! Ahhhh!!!

[@skydonkey9515]

So you think they’re gonna get rid Amara in favor of cringe ass Ava?, god I hope not lol

[@shawnfee9107]

Only way they could save BL4 at this point is to make her not a playable character, but the big bad. 🤣

[@bigbear4120]

I doubt they'll make a 4th game. The sales dropped hard after the Maya death got out and the massive backlash from it makes me think they'll likely reboot it to follow the upcoming movie.

[@ConfuseDirt]

Hey atleast you can make her die in horrible ways and torcher her. Just be fodder and let the teammates take the glory

[@A_Wild_Dyzzy]

The worst part of this was that my boy Kreig was done dirty. He never got to connect with Maya after he regained his sanity.

[@kileak6]

For me it's not even just ava, it's the entire dialogue from every character, none of these characters feel like they're a part of the world they're in anymore, it feels like taking SpongeBob characters and putting them into Gears of War and saying it's a funny joke when it doesn't make any sense, it feels like each character only exists to make a few jokes and then they just turn into Idle NPCs

[@TheRealDeclou]

The siren recon pissed me of so much the whole only x amount can be in the universe and then when 1 dies and new siren is born off in the universe reduced to "yeah angle gave her powers to tannis cause fuck you thats why"

[@Managuabrother]

That was bullshit. The whole twin stealing power thing was a bit weird as well... Ooh I took her power, Oooh I'm dead so here you can have her powers.. and are able to use them immediately and effortlessly and also these Siren tattoos as well as if you born a Siren. They literally took a huge dump on their Siren Lore.. and made it a mockery of it

[@TheDian101]

Ava was unironically the reason I quit Borderlands 3 and never finished it.

[@Summit900]

I made it through 1 character in vanilla BL3. I started a 2nd and got to just after Maya being killed and just quit. Haven't played BL3 since.

[@mongooseunleashed]

I didn't finish it either..

[@CharlesFroehler]

'That's sexist! You're a misogynist! Now give us more money!' ~ Gearbox

[@MsKareboo]

x2

[@MrSquidskid]

Literally this. Maya was my favorite Character in all of borderlands. I was beyond hyped when she was finally in bl3. They killed her, I legit turned my game off and have NEVER turned it on back since. I was really enjoying the game and that was the nail in the coffin.

[@Nini_VT]

An extended family member of mine works at Gearbox right now. I remember during a dinner two or so years ago, I asked him about his time developing. He mostly talked about Wonderlands since it was a positive experience for him, but he eventually mentioned he worked on BL3 as well, so I asked how he felt during the development. First thing he did was wince and talk about how bad he thought the writing was coming along even during development, but he couldn't rly do shit about it because that just simply wasn't his department. This shit felt so telling lmfao.

[@alexpricefield6969]

The corporate war was wasted, it was supposed to be one of the biggest event in the world of borderlands

[@sagardhaberao]

which one?

[@cannandreas]

The mass murder on Elpis is pretty accurate when you consider how 2K Australia got nuked too 😅

[@benkersten1705]

Man I thought she froze it in place or some shit. Did they actually confirm that destroyed Elpis?

[@cannandreas]

Likely not completely destroyed but the surface got scorched@@benkersten1705

[@elliottgaal9774]

I didn't think she was a follower of the Dark Gods. Even anti-heroes will be reluctant and regretful for the act. Lily just did it, no questions asked.

[@exalphagosthedestroyerofwo4873]

Whenever I play BL3, I literally just turn the dialogue volume off. 90% of the dialogue in this game makes my skin crawl.

[@ind0minusr3x51]

Plain and simple, she was -entitled -immature -brat -"Marry Sue" -anoying -blames others for things she did/caused -0 sense of responsibility -overall anoying every time she speaks

[@SpenzOT]

So basically your typical kotaku writer. Makes complete sense that they would self-insert themselves into BL3 like that.

[@tranz2deep]

Like I said elsewhere, She's a Rancid Karen!

[@riotman3579]

Are we sure she ain't the forspoken protag's kid they got a lot in common

[@xFAM3xSkollx]

So like modern feminists?

[@tranz2deep]

@@xFAM3xSkollx Nope. Very much a Karen, though.

[@Chaoslordx13]

A buddy of mine modded his game to cut out all avas dialog and replacenit with circus music

[@THE1vbLLover69_]

"What do you remember the most?" The story, definitely. When it's so bad I have to drop a game multiple times I cant not say that

[@gabec2024]

This is probably been said already but, if not? Borderlands 3 plot feels like someone wrote a self insert character of a middle school fanfic, and force us to be every part of it without us realizing till the end.

[@Trikormadeinadon]

Not just that she's a teenager but there is another siren, forget the name but it's one of the 4 playable characters. She should have been given Sanctuary, not that annoying bratty kid.

[@baconsir1159]

Or Ellie, seeing as she fucking built the thing

[@RaspberryHugs]

I remember being so excited for this game. Played every other game because I'm a huge fan of the series. I didn't even make it anywhere near the end. Even now I never completed it. I mean during the part where you find her backstory, she's listening and reacting to it in the most annoying, immature, bratty way. During that quest which was supposed to make me empathise I literally ended up saying outloud "Shut up. Shut the fuck up Ava!" and I never say anything outloud to a game. I'm a softie who naturally is empathetic and they couldn't even make me empathise with her.

[@mad7medieval7]

Ava trying to speak on behalf of the sacrifice at the end of the game was so cringy. Like she acted like she knew everyone from childhood and could speak in depth on everyones feelings towards the end. And it just felt so FAKE.

[@MJonMBoviM]

To be fair the calypso twins were fucking awful too

[@Terrince_Tate]

Agreed, the whole game was woke progressive trash.

[@MJonMBoviM]

@@Terrince_Tate I wouldn't say woke more like flat out cringe

[@honestamerican368]

Horrible writing by a group who have never had their cringe writing critiqued in their lives.

[@Kuzka_]

@@Terrince_TateBorderlands games ARE progressive in a way, but the real problem of BL3 was the writing and stuffing cringe everywhere.

[@theMyouknow]

No shit, gay couple, lesbian couple, tomboy mary sue, cringe everywhere to frojo stands and what not.

[@innocuousalias6632]

It's so bizzare putting the funeral scene next to the tantrum scene. That means the writers consciously chose THAT over the other.

[@CidLufaine]

Yet another great franchise that somehow fell from grace with one release, at least for me. 3 was the first Borderlands game I waited on and thank god for that, watched a buddy play and the characters really unsold me on buying the game. I still remember the first Borderlands intro with Cage the Elephant. One of the best video game intros still to this day.

[@oliouloin6152]

I think the worst thing about these do-no-wrong, especially teen characters is that you want to believe that the crap they do and say is out of their misguided youth and that you could sorta forgive it to some extent, especially if they develop on later and become more tolerable. But the game/writers completely wants you to agree with their perspective and no development is needed because they were never wrong to begin with.

[@lakelandgunworks7068]

so ava gets maya killed then blames someone else lol

[@AMightyViciousOlogsFriend]

Not even close to what happened, which you'd know if you actually played the game yourself. Ava took the full guilt for Maya dying. She got mad at Lilith because Lilith is the leader, and Lilith decided to do nothing about it.

[@Summit900]

@@AMightyViciousOlogsFriend Ava DID get Maya killed, Ava wasn't even supposed to be there. Ava disregarded a direct order to NOT be there. Maya would have been gone before the twins even arrived, which was the literal plan. Being the little piece of shit she is and being there there in the first place, she then argued with Maya causing Maya's escape to be delayed long enough for the twins to arrive. Then doubled down when Maya tried to leave when given their only chance after the twins did arrive. Lilith didn't just decide to do nothing. She didn't have the ability to do anything. You know, because her powers were literally stolen in the first bit of the game and now Maya was killed and her powers stolen. Which you'd know if you played the game yourself.

[@imaginarycorgi7312]

The fact that some asshats use the cut funeral scene as a defense is sooo fuckin stupid. I feel like Gearbox had the opportunity in the Director’s Cut to ya know… give us the FUCKING DIRECTOR’S CUT!? Not a few extra things and a skill tree. Do more like what Mass Effect 3 did. The fanbase poorly reacted. And instead of radio silence, they stepped up and made a fix (although they released it as pay for dlc). The fact that they animated such a scene (ran it by play testers and none of those fuckers spoke up about how it would be smarter to just fully animate the best scenes and integrate them into the game (and not in a GODDAMN EXTRAS MENU!!!).

[@maybedeadcatz6697]

we went from you are a filthy bandit and i am the godamn hero to... whatever this game was.

[@derkevevin]

"Hey! Don't misgender the robot, or it's a ban!"

[@Ramotttholl]

never got into BL3.. because i grew older between 2 and 3. but from the ads it seemed bl3 was made for ppl who grow younger rather than older.

[@Bstrdmn]

If you ignore the story and have dialogue off it's a mechanically solid co-op looter shooter and actually pretty good. Problem is you have to actually progress through the game to get to the good bits

[@henriklarssen1331]

@@Bstrdmn I dont know about that, i dropped it after i was running around the huge ship for 1 hour, what a slog. I also wasnt a fan of that stupid CoD sliding around and all the enemy voice comments while fighting were super anyoing too. And the gameplay wasnt realy better in any way, dunno why so many praied it. A Buddy and i spent 100 hours in BL2 playing coop and maybe like 3-4 in BL3. It also crashed alot for him, so there was that too. I doubt i will ever touch that Game again. And yeah only 4 Classes was another letdown.

[@michaelglynn7010]

Releasing the audio with no game footage for the funeral to try help with the backlash being received is such a spineless move. Like at least if there was the bones of some game footage to go with the audio I believe that, but no audio just clip art means they didn’t even give it a thought until they got bad feedback!

[@dakotasan8719]

I would’ve thrown Ava out the airlock for getting Maya killed

[@aidancallaghan]

facts, nobody gets my fav siren killed without takin a little space walk

[@Bruhtatochip742]

I love how the most replayed is the point of skipping the director's cut footage.

[@CrumblesXo]

I always felt like Ava was a grab at the “angsty/ brutal teen charm” we got and loved with Tina, they just executed it soooo horribly.

[@norwegianblue2017]

Remember when western game companies were able to make female characters that people actually liked?

[@Ali-hi4xs]

I think likeable female characters died after the 360/ps3 generation

[@larrywade166]

Pepperidge farms remembers

[@TyBe-uo4ud]

this is such a dumb statement. gearbox was bad, that doesn't encompass the entirety of western gaming. and I'm not going to join in on any rant about east vs west, just enjoy what you enjoy and move on.

[@gooberbyleth7063]

​@@TyBe-uo4udI'm a woman . And haven't seen a likeable woman lead in western games for awhile . I actively started going to eastern games . Where shocker their written like human beings and are actually relatable

[@igualdable]

@@gooberbyleth7063 Then either you are lying or you are really unlucky. Like, these months I have just played a handful of modern games, since I'm in a state of playing a bunch of retro games. And in those few modern games I found pretty amazing women like in Rogue Trader or Metal : Hellsinger

[@mikebakster2540]

The only thing I remember about borderlands 3 is that they some how managed to make watching paint dry seem like a better use of my time

[@High-Pie_Chop]

Ava crying... TLOU2 Abby: There, there, Ave it's not all too bad, if anything you should be glad that your not in my place. Ava: why's that? Abby: I..... I killed a a fan favorite character.

[@JaredHildebrant-dp2uf]

The fact that Gearbox had 2 scenes that not only would’ve changed the audience’s view toward Ava but also would’ve given Maya a proper send-off AND CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT will always baffle me.

[@piranhaplantX]

The problem with that is that they would still feel disjointed from the rest of the story. Two cutscenes isn't enough to save a character that is insufferable for the entire game. If anything it just gives the players whiplash from the sudden change in character for these two scenes, unless they also changed how the character acted outside of them.

[@jacobcrouch6418]

Because they were clearly made after the fact

[@aerostrafe1075]

Ava is written like Jade from Jackie Chan Adventures with none of the charm and all the worst aspects cranked to 11.

[@micalmus789]

That "cut" funeral cutscene was almost definatly made after the game got so much backlash. It just screams "damage control"

[@mrbonlino]

I always subscribed to the idea that Troy was supposed to be the BBEG overall, and usurp Tyreen after realising he can leech siren powers. So he would plot to take Tyreen's power, along with firehawk powers, and eventually want to try to assemble all the siren powers into one being, making him final boss worthy. And then, once the vault hunters defeat Troy, the siren powers are now erased from borderlands lore due to how they were unnaturally taken instead of bestowed elsewhere. But I think with the movement of girlbossing and fem empowerment, the writers felt they couldn't afford the potential backlash of having the main female villain be outshined by a male villain, so had to switch gears towards the end of the writing process. Thats not to say its the movements FAULT, just that i feel the writers werent conscious of it until towards the end of the story where they realised how bad of a light it seemed to look. That's how I feel couldve been why the couple of hours of borderlands 3 is kind of mishmashy in my opinion, and how I felt the story was going uptill the last couple of hours. I remember being quite surprised that it was Tyreen that was the final boss given how much build up Troy was having to be the conniving and undershined twin of the two, feeling jealous of his sister and plotting behind her back, and with the reveal of the leech powers, it really felt like he was being setup to have a 'this is my chance to take control' sort of moment. Feels weird that it didn't turn out that way.

[@MrJerichoPumpkin]

but IT IS the movements fault.

[@dylanbacklund7655]

I think Troy would have been a great final boss, Tyreen was so unbearable making Butt humor while the game has jokes about "Beating the Monster" in reference to her father smashing her mom.

[@bigbear4120]

The girlboss movement is 100% to blame.The dozens of games, movies, and comics that were irreparably destroyed by the "Mary Sue" style of storytelling pissed off millions of fans across multiple art forms. The cheap hacks trying to force their message down everyone throat might have made people care if they actually cared about telling a good original story instead of hijacking preexisting stories.Tell multiple generations of fans that you don't give a shit about their favorite stories as you destroy them and they will listen, just not to the message you want them to.

[@Kuzka_]

For me the Tyreen fight felt more like "Okay, this is the last thing to do, let's get this over with". A nuisance rather than an exciting clash.

[@baconsir1159]

Definitely felt like that was what they were building to with his cutscene on Eden 6