How Pathfinder 2e FIXES 1e and D&D (The Rules Lawyer)

I go into the DESIGN GOALS of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, which is the latest attempt to address issues that came up in D&D 3e/Pathfinder 1e.
This is the second "course" in PATHFINDER LAW SCHOOL, for people who are now checking out Pathfinder 2e!
CORRECTION(S)/ERRATA:
-At 10:10, there are some free actions that don't have a trigger like Release (releasing an object). A number of others don't have triggers per se, but they need to be done immediately before doing something else (like a wizard draining their Arcane Bond to fuel their upcoming spell).
-At 12:05, there actually is ONE more type that comes up SOMETIMES in battle, the item bonus from an alchemical item or some other effects
-If you dislike tracking conditions and their effects, digital tools like Pathbuilder, Wanderer's Guide, and VTTs let you apply them automatically.
-At 20:52, Guidance and Bless don't stack because they aid DIFFERENT kinds of checks: Guidance boosts ability checks, whereas Bless aids only attack rolls and saving throws.
-At 39:50, one of the Big Six was a statboosting item to increase your main ability score. (Belt of Giant Strength, Headband of Alluring Charisma, etc.) Shields, while a SEVENTH big item for some characters, was optional.
-At 1:04:12, I had planned to but forgotten to give credit to 4e for defining simple, streamlined uses for skills in combat.
0:00 Introduction
2:19 Overview
4:34 Complexity in combat
19:50 Complexity: stacking spells
23:59 Imbalance between characters
36:17 Complexity in character building
39:42 Magic items less wondrous
46:12 Boring melee combat
52:56 Difficult to balance encounters
1:03:15 Skills rarely used
1:06:24 Martial/caster balance, story-breaking spells
1:13:33 5-minute adventuring day
1:18:40 Closing thoughts
=============================
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[@adamglenen734]

I swear dude you are single handedly converting me to Pathfinder 2e

[@parkourbee2]

He's 5-handedly converting me. Bob World Builder and DM Lair both have vids on pf2, and Icarus Games and Nonst1s are dedicated to it. Reddit brought me to Rules Lawyer, who is the most extensive of all of them, hence the apt channel name 😅

[@EricBurnetMusic]

As a 5e GM, the more I learn about Pathfinder 2e and engage with these comparisons, the more validated I feel in my struggles. I'm running an epic campaign and the players are currently level 16. Balancing encounters is a complete crapshoot. I can throw things at them that according to the system is probably Deadly x4, and they breeze through it. It's become really stressful and work-intensive. I'm really looking forward to finishing the campaign and switching to PF2.

[@richardmenz3257]

one thing to note, if you find things you don't like in pf2e they have a lot of optional rules you can use to fix them as well.

[@PsicoPrime]

Wow almost like 5e was made Just to cash up from new players and Is not balanced at all at High One wow

[@xelgodis80085]

It's not that hard, just throw similar shit at them as they throw at you. Look up DPR and stop being trash.

[@benalias9118]

A very important point that comes with the fixing of the "between 6 and 8 encounters per day" problem : you can finally build dungeons without a monster in every room. And it will be perfectly fine ! Because you don't have to exhaust the ressources of your players and because hazards and skill checks give huge amounts of xp (or because you use millestones, that I recommand), you perfectly can have a cave full of bandits with only 2 or 3 combats : the guards at the entrance, some random walkabout if the party is not sneaking successfully, and the boss + his minions. You can fill all the other "rooms" or places with traps, challenges, creativity, social skills, whatever you want. No need to beat the 8 rooms with the 8 variations of a small group of bandits. Very powerful storytelling tool.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Yep! It's often said that Bounded Accuracy leads to more "naturalism" and freedom for DMs to put whatever they want in a dungeon. But at the same time the 6-8 encounters assumption is a straitjacket. And as I say in the vid it also makes hexploration less exciting when the party can go nova constantly when they rarely have more than 1 encounter in a day.

[@theeight-roadwanderer6286]

I haven't played Pathfinder yet but that sounds nice

[@Psynister_PBP]

I haven't even played my first real game of P2 yet, and I can already see that the 3 Action system is absolutely the way D&D should go.

[@thalamus861]

The fact that 3-action is so simple, I'm surprised that it isn't something that wasn't fully embraced in 4e or implemented 35+ years ago if not when D&D was spun off Chainmail

[@HorizonOfHope]

I hate the 3 action system, funnily enough. Breaking up movement however you like is much more flexible. Tbh, in our games, 3-action is in practice every character pretty much always doing the same thing every time anyway. Especially with the movement. You are stupid if you move because you lose an attack, so the game is super static.

[@thalamus861]

​@@HorizonOfHope found my 5e game never move once in melee, even more so when the Sentinel Feat is taken. There is zero insensitive to step away from a combatant when you open yourself up to when A) a hit (everyone has AoO) is possible and B) it costs nothing for someone to move back into melee. If I know I can move more than my opponent's movement... I know I'm going to risk a hit from MAYBE 2 targets (extra emphasis on maybe) you know I'm doing it. Why leave my self open to a 3rd action that will likely not hit when I can guarantee that 3rd action will be used to move, and I definitely won't be flanked for at least 2 attacks?

[@HorizonOfHope]

It could be something that varies table to table, but even when watching people stream, I never see movement in PF2. In 5e movement makes a fair bit of difference. The only HP that matters losing are the ones that knock you out, so players don't really lose much by moving. Taking an attack of opportunity isn't that bad unless you're concentrating - which is another great mechanic in 5e that's not in PF2: you can lose concentration after being hit. Pretty much nothing in PF2 can do AoO, anyway, so it's another point in 5e's favour that everyone can do it. But in 5e, it's a tactical choice to move away from enemies, and it doesn't compete with other actions. Some features and spells even allow disengaging as a bonus actions, which encourage you to keep moving. And with spellcasters you don't really get three actions, either, you get one spell with two actions and one with one action. It's basically the same thing as action and bonus action, but with another name. Same with two attacks and then moving: it's just action and bonus action but worse.

[@ryzenforce]

@@HorizonOfHope Same for me. 3-action is cool at lower level as it make you think you can do a lot, but pass 10th level, you are still doing the same thing and CAN'T do more as you did in PF1/DnD3.x. PF2 if ok at best and it just a rehashed 4th Edition imo. The more I play it, the more I want to go back to PF1.

[@rosesanchez1252]

I personally think the rules are a + to a narrative game. The thing is I know how to roleplay a character and I know how to tell a story. I want the game system to be able to handle the rest of the stuff. Pf2es strong rules are good at handling that stuff and also lets me cutomize without having to worry about being optimal or whatever.

[@JacksonOwex]

I have to be honest that I saw PF2 initially being what this person on reddit thought: I thought PF2 was just taking what made 5E good and what made 3.x stuff good and put it together! After actually going out and learning about it I found it to be VERY, VERY different than either however! Edit: In the best of ways, at least in my opinion! It has become my go-to fantasy system over the last couple of years, the time in which I have really gotten to learn about the system.

[@kateslate3228]

The biggest inspiration for PF2 is 4th edition.

[@fjh89]

Man I just saw Jason Bulmahn's new video (about his Pathfinder Hack, Hopefinder) and his 4 Pillars of Pathfinder 2e Core Game Engine, and their fine tuning of math to make it story driven and customizable is downright inspiring. He and his team were so incredibly passionate about creating an game engine that is iconic and future-proof that they absolutely hit it out of the park. Props to him and paizo team.

[@LegendStudioGames]

Here's that video you mentioned: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqubq3umaquqlas

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

CORRECTIONS/ERRATA: -At 10:10, there are some free actions that don't have a trigger like Release (releasing an object). A number of others don't have triggers per se, but they need to be done immediately before doing something else (like a wizard draining their Arcane Bond to fuel their upcoming spell). -At 12:05, there actually is ONE more type that comes up SOMETIMES in battle, the item bonus from an alchemical item or some other effects -If you dislike tracking conditions and their effects, digital tools like Pathbuilder, Wanderer's Guide, and VTTs let you apply them automatically. -At 20:52, Guidance and Bless don't stack because they aid DIFFERENT kinds of checks: Guidance boosts ability checks, whereas Bless aids only attack rolls and saving throws. -At 39:50, one of the Big Six was a statboosting item to increase your main ability score. (Belt of Giant Strength, Headband of Alluring Charisma, etc.) Shields, while a SEVENTH big item for some characters, was optional. -At 1:04:12, I had planned to but forgotten to give credit to 4e for defining simple, streamlined uses for skills in combat.

[@recka5000]

21:00 ish, Guidance and Bless add a d4 to different things so they don't stack (Guidance is just skill checks, Bless is attack rolls and saving throws). Bless and Emboldening Bond do stack though!

[@SquatBenchDeadlift455]

58:28 silvery barbs is only good at forcing enemies to reroll, not rerolling your own things higher.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@SquatBenchDeadlift455 Part 1 of SIlvery Barbs forces an enemy to reroll a success, Part 2 gives Advantage to an ally's next check.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@recka5000 Thanks! Adding

[@SquatBenchDeadlift455]

Ahh I see what you mean

[@Quetzelkoa]

This made me realize that silvery barbs is a more powerful version of hero points, no wonder that spell feels busted! Great breakdown of the design philosophies and differences!

[@justingaylor4265]

"...on this satisfying razor's edge, where the party's tactical decisions matter in determining whether they win." That's something I've really found myself striving for (often unsuccessfully) in my past D&D 5e games and something that comes through in all your group play videos and your amazing 20th level Ancient Red Dragon boss encounter video. Thanks for making such amazing content for us Pathfinder newbs! m(_ _)m

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Awesome! Thx

[@crasusakechi]

Please make the rogue cleric fighter teamwork scenario a short, I need to share it with all my PF2e players!

[@kylevanpelt2654]

This is probably, in my opinion, the best PF2e comparison video made. Excellent dive into the reasoning behind, and execution of, the things that make the system work well. This video definitely will help me articulate why I prefer PF2e more succinctly and accurately. Awesome work! You've been on a roll lately, I find that I will drop what I'm doing to catch your latest videos, and they don't disappoint. Thanks for the great videos, I'm glad to have an advocate for this game like you!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thank you!

[@adriandellatorre2489]

Ronald, what an awesome video! Thank you, once again, for your amazing work. And, should I say, the "graphics" and images used in the presentation: GORGEOUS! Glad to be here and support you as much as I can. Looking forward to return to your Patreon. Hope you are fine! Thx again

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks! I just discovered PowerPoint with this video! (Well, I knew of it before, but this forced me to start playing with it! I recorded this before Law School #1 btw)

[@mastertenshi]

Excellent video, Ronald! The only point I would add is that because of the way the "bounded escalator" allows the encounter system to work, it alleviates the issue of action disparity between the two sides of combat. If a party of 4 PCs is fighting a single creature that's +4 levels higher than them, that's 12 actions per round versus 3 actions per round. But because of how the numbers are designed, those 3 actions from the boss monster will be MUCH more impactful (likely critically succeeding) than the 12 actions from the party. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I was trying to say that here, but you said it more clearly!

[@user-qz6nk1le5n]

No conditions are more consistent that Undetected and Hidden, your Allies could Point Out (>Action) the position, and the creature is now hidden and your Allies know which square the creature is, which is in fact the only difference between both conditions. Your Allies could also grapple the creature and you will be sure of which square the creature is, but it is still Undetected for you, but is technically Hidden in reality. I really like the consistency of conditions of 2e.

[@eepopgames2741]

Thanks. This video was amazing. I haven't played D&D in a few years, but my oldest son was asking to play so I had pulled out my 5E books and started preparing for that. I was defaulting to 5E as I already had physical books, and knew the system and my prep time is pretty limited, but various things especially on the DM side were really starting to grate on me in preparation. When the whole OGL mess went down I bought the Humble Bundle for PF2 as a statement (and hey, can never have enough game materials), but I had not really looked into it in detail. I was worried that it would hew too close to 3.5/PF1, and the various issues it had. I had not played a lot of PF1, but I was largely underwhelmed by how little it had fixed from 3.5 at the times I looked. This video was very helpful in seeing how PF2 actually has addressed a number of the things I was concerned about from 3.5/PF1 and 5E. Enough so that I am going to commit to at least digging in and giving the core rules a thorough reading to see if it would be a better choice for us. This video has made me a lot more confident that if I do spend the time to learn PF2, I can at least trust that it will do something to address those ten issues that were all weighing on me to some degree while planning to play 5E again.

[@questmarq7901]

I will do an overstep here and suggest to you to look up the Video Playlist of PF2e in a channel called "HowItsPlayed". He has made arguably short videos explaining almost "each and every rule" in the system (at least the most big ones) in a very simple and waterdown way, with pages for reference. i suggest 1.5x speed playback

[@gulthor]

Only criticism I have is that the Big 6 includes stat-boosting gear, such as a Belt of Giant Strength, not a shield. In fact, oftentimes getting your stat-boosting gear is your top gearing priority. Great video!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Ack, you're right! Oh well, Big Seven!

[@TheReZisTLust]

Boots of flying were pretty mandatory for at least fighters in campaigns iv played

[@TarEcthelion]

It's not going to be for everyone, but I really love this level of depth. Thanks for all of the work putting this together.

[@ggellner]

Thank you so much for this video. I love that you are teaching some of the structure/theory behind the rules, which is really helping me jump start the intuition needed to run a ttrpg!

[@chrishughes7408]

I still love 1st edition pathfinder, but I just ran the beginner box for 2e for some friends and I did find it really, really nice to not feel like I have to keep an entire reality simulation running in my head. Next step is to jump from tricycling to a biathlon by converting the Strange Aeons AP for 2nd edition 😅

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Awesome! I don't know if you've connected with Series of Dice Based Events, but they have a server where people have created guides for converting 1E adventures to 2E, and actual conversions

[@LordRenegrade]

5:00 - don't forget that 5e is split into DMG and PHB whereas PF1/2 both use a combined CRB. That makes the CRB seem kinda hefty, until you realize it's two books in one.

[@monkey7218]

Seems like they'll split them into 2 books in the Remaster!

[@ryokirah]

The most complicated parts for me are: the statuses/conditions their effects and which stack and which don't; the hidden/concealed/etc and the ins & outs of that

[@sparksjc]

Thank you for making these. Very information rich and much appreciated!

[@FornaxusCrucible]

I realize it's been a year, but... Your content is always good, but this is probably one of the best you've done. Packed full of information, while still maintaining your "fair assessment" approach to talking about comparing PF2e to any D&D edition. TL:DR - good video!

[@DariusRex]

Thank you for the time and attention you've put (and continue to put) into this. It's appreciated for sure! :D

[@bokavordur]

I love this channel more than most of my family. Thank you for your dedication and love of the game!

[@craigjones7343]

Another great video Ronald. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to make these videos. As a newb to pf2 I really appreciate it.

[@duncandomey8199]

This was a very useful overview for someone who has played multiple editions of D&D, and now is looking at the PF2 starter box and scratching their head. Keep it up!

[@LegendStudioGames]

I'm eagerly awaiting the rest of this series!

[@andrewsimone9746]

This was EXTREMELY helpful in crafting my pitch to my players to try Pathfinder. I also stopped playing D&D just as 3.0 was coming out and didn't get back in until 5e and was super interesting overview that helped me understand the landscape of design evolution.

[@lic.oneyclavijo3847]

I love this video, I have played through all editions of both D&D and Pathfinder and I could not agree more with you. Great explanation, clear and fair. Thanks! Keep recording good videos.

[@Man-At-Arms46]

Your explanations were really helpful in processing both systems, particularly advantage/disadvantage and i feel less compulsion to forcefully replicate the dynamic now that i understand the background. Thank you!

[@arcadianmasque184]

I have been trying to get my group to try pf2 for a while and this will help me immensely. Great vid!

[@Wonderwall627]

amazing video covering many really interesting topics in PF2e and TTRPG in general

[@Cube_Banana96]

Nice video Ronald! I think the more visual format of this video helped me better understand what you meant. I'm all for using more power point!

[@misterzicold]

This is a great video! I don't remember a time when I was so much enjoying watching system building/developing/comparing video.

[@FaptainCalcon750]

Love this series so far!

[@dericksoares]

I comand my first session of pf2e yesterday, it was very nice. Your videos are very helpfull to demonstrate to my old hags attached to DnD for 10 old years more, to try something different. Tx man. (Sorry for my bad english, I'm from Brazil.)

[@kyleharder3654]

Great video! For any players interested the Beginner box is the way to go. Our table picked it up last year and it was such a good introduction and we’re still continuing the campaign well after it.

[@phasestar7787]

Wanted to leave a comment to thank you for this tour de force review of Pathfinder and how it compares to current and previous D&D editions. Started playing with 1st Edition D&D but my most active period was with 3rd Edition / 3.5, mostly skipped 4th and got heavily into 5th. I did try Pathfinder 1st Edition but it was very much 3.75 and at the time I'd played that enough to be very familiar both as a DM and player with many of the problems you highlighted. 5th did fix a lot of those, but you made an excellent and thorough case for PF2's advantages over 5th. We picked up the PF2 Beginner's Box and Core Rulebook after the recent OGL debacle and are giving it a real try. Found your channel originally via Treantmonk and very glad that I did!

[@randomyoutubecommenterr]

Very concise comparison. Interesting to a new 2e convert like myself

[@somecallmetimelderberries432]

Great video, thanks for sharing!

[@jacobroden2279]

Fantastic content, very thorough excellent stuff 😊

[@Henkums]

Thanks to you I switched to Pathfinder 2E and also started DMing now as well

[@NoahTopper]

I'm hooked. Seems like such a sweet spot inbetween Pathfinder 1e and D&D 5e.

[@robertobassatt3141]

Like always amazing job

[@Quantarum]

I was also not impressed with the playtest and didn't want to switch from 1e, but your videos convinced me to try it and I have not looked back. Well done.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Awesome!

[@dylanhyatt5705]

Thanks for this thorough step by step analysis, I think it will be useful to those embarking on their own system designs and for many relatively new to PF2e DMing, like myself, identifying the design goals deepens understanding and therefore running the system to its potential.

[@Grifta]

It comes down to if you feel empowered or stifled by systems. As you say, once you've looked up a dozen rules, you'll see that it is brutally straight forward and perfectly fits with everything else. With all of the rules on the table for everyone to see, you can spend time in combat and/or RP instead of needing the DM to finagle rulings all the time.

[@theshadowcult]

Great video, was an excellent listen. Wanted to add for others, that if you like the 3 actions idea, but still want to play 5e, you can add three actions to 5e, to a fashion, with little problems. Action, move action, bonus action. Each one can be used to do the action on the right. So an action can do anything, but a move action can only do a move or bonus action. Etc. Am playing it in a game right now, and its had almost no issues.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It's the 4e system! Which is one thing my "3 action video" recommends! Yay us! Great minds.

[@TheLastPhoen1x]

Never understood the limit on magic items 5E imposed. If I wanted to play low-magic setting I would do so myself.

[@raphaelgomes7027]

1:04:00 o like the ways you can use your skills in combat, they are not only for roleplay moments, they have tactical uses too, almost all skills

[@Jake-mc4zk]

This is such a great video! I very much look forward to more in this series! (But please don’t overwork yourself)

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

A great video, thanks for going into this detail. PF 2e is not for me but I appreciate some of its improvements.

[@timbombadil4046]

Can confirm about buff stacking in 3e/pf1. Played through Shattered Star abusing stacking buffs. Had the party motto "buffs are running" meaning shoot first and move through quickly since it almost always was the most effective. Actually was a slog to play since modifier conditionality made each round an accounting chore but the variance was still low (things died quickly).

[@aaronholt9285]

Thank you for doing this!!!

[@bernadmanny]

The spell casting action economy makes me want to play it just for that.

[@mikemleczko5565]

I have barely started the video and hit a like just because these are always so well done. Though I'm leaning toward going back to 1e after some clunky details and meh caster feel (dimension door 1/day? not in my world! lol ). we'll see how this video impacts that feel.

[@mikemleczko5565]

half way through the video and I'm now seeing some things I forgot and you made a 2e believer out of me. Just have to make some actions easier to recall for fewer players or handling multiple characters.

[@draco949]

Again. Amazing video. Keep it up!

[@gimli21]

I played 3.5 as a kid and pathfinder 1e since 2009. I’m about to finally take the plunge and DM a 2e game. I’ve been pushing back so hard on 2e because I love pathfinder 1e so much, but it feels like I’ve exhausted all pathfinder 1e has to offer me. Fantastic video my guy.

[@under20over40]

Fantastic video!

[@zionich]

I am happy I got the humble bundle for Pathfinder 2e. I will hopefully be able to talk my players into trying 2e next campaign.

[@Ogrekin]

I am glad my group has given PF2e a chance as we are all LOVING the game and setting.

[@Nyliss]

Okay, I had my thoughts about Pf2e as a new-ish D&D 5e DM... Now I have none, I just am thinking on the best way to fill my homebrew world with Pf2e ancestries (because everything else already fits, and furthermore, it fixes some of my concerns, one of them being the fact that some regions have to have more advanced magic.). Thank you so much for this video!

[@angmori172]

Just came from having mastered BG3 and holy shit have you made me fall in love. Pf2e solves EVERYTHING that has annoyed me about larians version of 5e. When I play BG3 I constantly think 'the game is amazing, but it would be so much better if this rule was X instead' and all of those thoughts are so far addressed by Pf2e. Fucking magic item overload man, nothing feels special once you hit the underdark.

[@krinkrin5982]

That was a great breakdown. I must say, I had a much different experience with D&D. I ate my teeth on 3rd edition (later PF 1st) and we have tried a lot of crazy builds, but never really managed to break the game that much. Perhaps because we generally limited our games to lvl 10. There was also never really a problem with buffing before the fight, or the five minute adventuring day. I believe this was thanks to how we started with boardgames and had the idea/preconception that we should get as much done within a session as possible. Playing official scenarios also helped in this regard. All of this combined into making us much more focused on executing cool ideas than min-maxing our characters. All that being said, I love how Pathfinder threw out all of the clunky rules regarding what you can do in a round for a simple, streamlined system.

[@96Logan]

I can't wait for the rest of these "Pathfinder Law School Courses." Love them, and the syllabus at the beginning leaves me craving for future lessons on the list XD Edit. "How to caster good" at #12, I am extremely interested in what you have to say... Putting it last seems intentional, Nice touch

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It was! =D

[@matthewjamesmjw4172]

I am *eagerly* awaiting course #12 - How to Caster Good. I love casters, but I'm still learning Pf2e so I'm struggling to find a fun build I like.

[@shadow-faye]

i probably won't ever get to play pf2e but i still want to try making a caster in it

[@christopherboerger]

Great video. Thank you for making this! One thing that I found was a big distraction was your camera going in and out of focus all the time. Otherwise loving the series.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I noticed it! Yeah, I'll try to remember to turn off my auto-focus. I also have a more stable mount for the camera now.

[@LidovinaV]

Note that at least in 3.0 wandering monsters were part and parcel of the rules (see the DMG). The game simply wasn't designed without them. Also the DM was instructed to use a variety of challenges, not just '4 per day' (apparently very few people bothered to read the damn book!) I never had '15 minutes adventuring days'.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Wandering monsters can pressure a party only so much. An 11th party where every caster has 20+ spell slots. In my 9 years of GMing 3.x/PF1 the idea that the spellcasters might not having enough spell slots disappeared after the first several levels. And the problem is more the opposite: finding a way to pressure the party so that they don't leave the "dungeon" and rest, and doing so consistently through a 1-20 campaign.

[@TheYashakami]

I personally think first edition is one of the best ttrpgs ever made, but as its a dead game ive finally decided to move on and learn about second edition. Your videos are an amazing resource. Thank you!

[@johngleeman8347]

The D&D server I belong to just started a PF2 game. They seem to be having a good time so far!

[@skysamurai4649]

I actually like the complexity of PF1e with all the options and roots you can take in character creation, and the amount of different action types in combat, it feels cool. What I don’t like are wholes in the rules and inconsistencies, like 4 different types of weapon finesse, or a fencing grace feat that allows you to grace only a rapier, but not any other piercing weapon.

[@einkar4219]

when I camed to pathfinder I was surprised that it solves nearly every problem fro dnd 5e caster vs martial disproportion - check suck or save effects (that are useless or overpowered at the same time) broken game balance (CR is a joke) rules that doesn't work as written and need a lot of interpretation to work everything is "up to GM" boring but strong ASI vs feets and that only a tip of things that pf do better than dnd5e

[@davidioanhedges]

I love this analysis, it highlights the issues and the different solutions, and confirms why I loved some bits of 4e .. I am just starting to play PF2e and most of it I like - oddly the only thing I miss from 5e is being able to split movement, which did make fights more mobile (but your point about why it tended not to be I agree with) The 5e Terrasque is a bad example ... as it is used to devastate the city the players are defending, it can be surprisingly quick and is very destructive, and trivial to kill over a large number of rounds, but by which time the city lies in ruins ... the other high level monsters are a bit more than sacks of hit points ... but still not as interesting as they can be - I suspect this is to make life easier for the DM?

[@frons79]

I think that with this video many of the complaints to 2e will be over, or at least they should be. A wide and complex analysis of the two systems with their collective five editions was necessary for an extensive comparison. Well done Ronald 👍🏼

[@aralornwolf3140]

It's not over... largest complaint is from the people who fear large numbers... "I can't play PF2e, all those large number at high level!" *Rollseyes* I can't play 5e... if the setting is in Middle Earth and the one-shot is surviving Balrog's (Balor) takeover of Moria... the Dwarves would destroy the Balor... yes, many Dwarves would die horribly... but... the Balor would lose. It has 19 AC... compared to a typical level 1 character's attack bonus of +4... multiple that by hundreds of Dwarves...

[@frons79]

@@aralornwolf3140 I see. A reason more to embrace Foundry VTT and let it make the calculations for us..

[@rylandrc]

12:10 Item bonuses can also change in combat from elixirs, such as a Drakeheart mutagen.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Ah yes, adding to my errata

[@timseyer6769]

After seeing this I think I found a personal "final" verdict in the 5e vs pathfinder 2e discussion. A beginner is perhaps happy to have less valid choices especially in combat, just getting locked in combat and attacking each turn is much less complicated than having choices. At least most times I have seen more elaborate stuff during combat being tried in 5e the DM simply decided on the fly how this might function, so more "work" for the DM but very easy for the player. For more advanced players on the other hand more valid things to do sound simply great. So I guess 5e stays the easier entry point for players with a more experienced DM while pathfinder may be the more enjoyable system long term also and especially for the DM and perhaps the easier entrypoint for new dms with experienced players. The question that I am asking myself now is if the 5e entry is that much easier to make it worth being less interesting in the long run.

[@yuvalgabay1023]

I say that not all systems need to go for the long run + 5e as time go ones is less focus and tactical combat..we can also se it in 5.5 they try to make every one more flexible and combat faster because 5.5 is trying to focus more on rp side of things. I really don't get it way people compared..path 2e is a tactical combat first and for most. A game whan everything is focus on the encounter..while 5e in time got more focus on rp and out of combat play .(one of the problem in 5e it is started as combat focused but player shifted toward rp more and more and the system kinda wasnt build for that) .it's seems 5.5 will finally will go the step to support it.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

First off, I agree in general about the action system being easier to jump into for 5e. But I do think the PF2 beginner box is actually easier for a new player than any of the 5e beginner boxes. Basic Liches has a Thoughts on PF2 video where they see PF2 as the easier game to learn (probably assuming the BB).

[@user-uv6qu3wb5d]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG ha, no. 3 actions per turn, feats, not being able move freely, the stacking of buffs and etc. It is definitely harder than 5e

[@cidlunius1076]

...but my torture scenes! 🤣 Didn't even mention one of the most brilliant things to happen to Skills: Assurance! Give players the capability of choosing between a stable number that they know will help in a great number of situations or roll for that sweet critical success... even allows you to fight against circumstancial and status penalties! Want to build a party that's actually competent in sneaking in most places? Assurance! Follow the Expert! Want to mitigate your multiple attack penalty on Athletic checks in combat? Assurance! Swimming and Climbing? Assurance! Medicine? Deception? Intimidation? Assurance! It gives you that feeling of what Expertise TRIES to do in 5e, by just giving you a reliable number you can always trust.

[@LunaSaint]

Is assurance actually good now? I remember in the playtest, it felt worse than useless as skill checks were scaled much more aggressively than in 1e. It's a serious question. One of the things that put our group off 2e was the excess of critical failures thrown into basic skill checks and the aggressive level-based scaling of most non-combat challenges.

[@richardmenz3257]

@@LunaSaint For the most part assurance isn't worth it, but always being able to heal with medicine is nice. But if its a check you know is low and you can only fail on a 5 or lower assurance turns a 25 % chance to fail is always pass which isn't bad. I do fell assurance should be your minimum, but you still roll to see if you can get higher taking the higher value of the 2.

[@duckymouth]

I ran the Pathfinder beginner box a few weeks ago and it was okay but the only times I was having fun was when I had to change everything about it to the point it wasn't anything like Pathfinder. There was too much combat and the social encounters said what the possibilities were so when the players did something else I would just say "you can't do that since it says nothing about it" which made it boring so on the second floor I just made everything up. The players opened a kobold nursery and collected all the kobolds and then at the end made a kobold army and they killed the dragon in one hit. I've never played dnd 5e and Pathfinder 2e was my first ttrpg so I'm not sure if it's exclusive to Pathfinder. I thought it would be something where you can be creative, doesn't have much rules, you can avoid combat at all times and even when there is rules, they are very light and say at the start that they can and should be altered so I know it's okay to do that and also everyone isn't extremely overpowered. I think I might try something from the OSR next since I've not fully dedicated to Pathfinder.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

yeah, just sounds like you and your group aren't as interested in the crunchy/combat aspect. OSR and rules light games are 2 directions you should check out

[@FlynnFromTaiga]

Man, I love Archetype system so much.

[@LordReginaldMeowmont]

If it takes the best things from other editons, that's good.

[@Baraz_Red]

In PF1, the imbalance was extreme. It was not a theoretical discussion about fairness, but just a wildly huge discrepancy (you could easily have some characters almost untouchable with 40+ AC [not at level 1, but still] while others had around 25 AC). Notably, I remember having to ignore tons of *flavor and RP Feats,* (which was sad for a RPG) to take the one that helps in combat (I was dreaming that some should be called Minor Feats, so players would take non-combat Feats every x levels). Oh, and you should have seen the incredible complexity of some character sheets due to stacking 5 to 10 buffs. :P

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

Best advertising for pf2. I paly pf2 not for long, but i love it by second sight

[@user-qz6nk1le5n]

As always your character don't Level up or change Items multiple times per round, you don't need to calculate your attacks rolls, you will just know it after the first combat..

[@nicholascarter9158]

Perhaps this is different in second edition but the constant recalculating in first edition came from a different buff or debuff being cast every single turn, abilities being activated, checking if previous round abilities had elapsed in duration, checking your environmental effects, etc, etc

[@user-qz6nk1le5n]

In Pathfinder 2e everything is Proficiencies +Item Bonus +Circumstance +Status, applied only biggest in each one. Proficiency and item are fixed, so just sum two number to your normal numbers, the same with debuff only the biggest applies. So you normally have +15/10/5 in you attacks you get a +2 and +1 in bonuses and you could get a -2 minus other -2, so -1 to your usual numbers. It can not be more complicated than that, quite literally the maximum amount of numbers you will get in a turn. Your usual number that you know, and other 4 number to sum.

[@richardmenz3257]

@@user-qz6nk1le5n Don't forget in 5e you have bless that changes how things work, also spells that also nerf monsters. It practice it is slightly more numbers but not much or at least at our table (but we did kind of munchkin our chars to have all the best boost in 5e)

[@adrian00v]

amazing video :)

[@scribemike]

Thumbs up for the dance moves👍.

[@Captainpigraven]

I just wanted to say I feel this is the best video on these matters I’ve seen from start to finish. Other videos do a good job of breaking specific things down, but this video covers most of what matters. I personally believe the low-key hero in all this is your choice to start with 3.5/PF1e, include 4e, and finally 5e when making comparisons/showing the progressions of the systems. While it’s completely understandable that so many videos draw a one-to-one comparison between 5e and PF2e, this video shows the general evolution, and reasons for changes made. It achieves two things that is rare in most videos: 1. It provides an easy-to-follow guide for players whom never made the jump to 5e from previous editions. Similarly, even those whom made the jump but have ample experience with 3.5/PF1e get an “extra layer” of understanding. It’s also probably the first time some 5e players will be introduced to some of the differences between 5e and previous editions of D&D. 2. Just as importantly, all this is achieved without bashing 5e. You show the differences, talk about why you think it’s better in many instances, but are also fair in your acknowledgment that some players or groups might not like every single change. Overall, just a really outstanding video, and one I can share with all my friends on the fence or not about trying out Pathfinder 2e. Thanks so much!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks! Yes you lay out some things I try to do here. Much appreciated!

[@delenius1]

I haven't yet played PF2e, but one thing that appeals to me a lot is the lack of different rule systems that you have to learn for each class, and all the different trackers that come with that (superiority dice, channel divinity, etc etc). In that regard, spell slots almost looks like a leftover vestige (and indeed, 4e went even further and got rid of those too, but at the cost of introducing the clunky at-will/encounter/daily distinction).

[@JoniWan77]

Honestly I think spell slots are fine. They are one very iconic system encompassing basically all of magic casting. And one of the core issues, 4e probably had, was that casters and martials did not feel different enough, although they arguably should. If the uniqueness of magic is not represented in the design of the rules, it ceases to be magic on an aesthetic level. Maybe there are better systems than spell slots for magic, but I would argue the rule systems of magic casters should feel different to other classes to reflect the difference between magic and non-magic in a fantasy setting, which heavily depends on it in its worldbuilding. After all a TTRPG cannot and maybe should not rely on flavor or visual cues for magic aesthetics like many videogames with "mana" for both martials and casters can.

[@delenius1]

@@JoniWan77 I'm not disagreeing, but one potential issue is that spell casters get more "screen time" just because their actions are more complicated.

[@JoniWan77]

@@delenius1 I do not really disagree. However I don't quite see how it's the spell slot system facilitating that. But maybe I just like the aesthetics or rather worldbuilding behind spell slots a bit too much. It just is so much more interesting than uniform ressource systems to me.

[@epone3488]

@Ronald; You really make me want to play PF2e BAD. Id love to play at your table (this from a 1979 Grognard OSR adherent - a lot of what I see in PF2e is very much what I see as ideal).

[@mousethefoo1230]

21:27 One barbarian with 2 casters strapped to the front and the back. I don't know if Fly's weight requirements but assumed it similar to regular encumbrance and the two casters were within the encumbrance of the barbarian.

[@Wanderingsage7]

5e made feats optional, however I haven't heard of or played many campaigns that went with turning the option off. They exist certainly, but nearly everyone I've interacted with or seen play has had feats enabled. Which makes sense considering they help martials stand out from casters.

[@levislooney]

So one of my favorite examples of how brilliant the archetype/dedication feats are in the system is my current Wild Order Druid I'm playing, His shapeshifting gets naturally stronger as he levels up, instead the class feats he has available add more versatility options when shapeshifting, but that doesn't matter to Marco the Dwarven Druid, because he only shapeshifts into a gorilla as he frontlines for the group, and is taking Wrestler archetype feats so he can manhandle anything in his way with athletic checks. I was blown away at how smoothly the combo works. I almost feel like I'm using free archetype rule even though we aren't in this group.

[@wanderdragon1075]

I kind of despise Vancian magic, and strongly prefer the modified version 5e uses. Especially since, looking at the math, it seems really, really hard for spellcasters to reliably land spells, especially spell attacks, since they’re already at a disadvantage compared to martials because of the lack of runes to buff attack rolls and DCs. Moreover the effectiveness prepared casters is entirely based on how good at predicting the needs of the day a given player will be, severely limiting some players from experiencing a class fantasy they like simply because they aren’t good at figuring what spells will be useful or they have a DM that doesn’t really telegraph whats to come.

[@JacksonOwex]

Cool, play 5E then! You kids whining about spellcasting is getting REALLY annoying and making me miss the days before TTRPGs were popular and the "cool" thing!

[@wanderdragon1075]

@@JacksonOwex congrats. You’re officially the rudest Pathfinder player I’ve had the misfortune of interacting with. Apologies that my opinion annoys you to such a degree, but frankly… I don’t really care what someone who makes assumptions about strangers they know nothing about has to say. I’ve interacted with every edition since 2e on varying levels, including PF1E, but excluding 4e. Vancian casting is an outdated, poor system. Just because you did something for 40 years doesn’t mean it’s good. That’s why we as a speciee don’t use horses for our usual mode of transport, or treat half our afflictions with leeches anymore.

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

I kinda feel like a design direction they could go is making Spontaenous casters stronger with Focus spells (which noticeably, the Bard, Oracle, and Psychic all are). I think it’d be neat if Prepared casters got stronger “other actions” more akin to Martials that keeps the class baseline effective when their spells aren’t prepared to fit. We sorta have stuff that fits the bill. Cleric has domain spells and fonts. Druid can choose to go deeper on either familiar, animal companion, shapeshifting, or order spells. Witch has hexes and a familiar. Wizard can choose spell flexibility (spell substitution/blending/staff) or a familiar (and they have arcane school spells). Druid’s better defensive stats/proficiencies (medium armor, shield block, and 8hp) set them up for some melee-ing. I feel like that would help solve some issues of Prepared casters feeling “useless” if their prediction goes wrong. RK and flanking is fine, but it’s not specific to the class. (Though I do love me some muscle wizarding and using athletics instead of spells).

[@BasementMinions]

You helped to sell me on the system, thank you for that. :)

[@mattitalks6261]

One thing I did like about pathfinder 2e is spell slots being prepared I honestly like 5e with doing prepared spells instead

[@richardmenz3257]

Agreed one of my biggest gripes with pf2e. Even if not the same if they made is one restriction class lower it would do monsters for spell casters.

[@goincq]

Great Video, although I was looking for the fly in my room at 1:10:34 :D

[@jasonsoares326]

There are definitely moments in your videos where I see the lawyer come out. "This benefits the player who is (pause) in the know, and is not obvious to the (slight emphasis) new player." This juror is convinced. 😆

[@nyds4174]

Loved this vido, highly informative and well done, I was wondering what your mod list for foundry is because it looked pretty good and had some interesting features.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I have a Foundry mods video on my channel. Also, here's a link to my server channel where my list is a pinned comment: discord.com/channels/870925179570753616/943926525688954930

[@nyds4174]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG thank you

[@forrestmiles5788]

Long but excellent video. PS I hope youtube paid you allot on this. I had ads break in at least 4-5 times during vid.