Let's do the SAME COMBAT in D&D and Pathfinder 2E! ("Pathfinder Law School" #3, Part 1 of 2)

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Anything that surprised you, or you think is significant, watching this side-by-side comparison? ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS: -At 20:08, I double the dice (and double the modifier) for a crit in PF2E. This is my personal preference, but the default method in the book is simply to double the total result, while this is called out as an alternative way to roll damage when an attack crits. (On the other hand, I tend to just halve and double damage when it comes to adjudicating multiple-target abilities like Fireball.) -At 41:34, 5E death saving throws benefit from Bless because they are "saving throws." -At 43:45, the 5E rule isn't "you normally can't cast more than 1 spell on your turn." It's "You cannot have a turn where you cast a spell as a bonus action and cast another spell that is not a cantrip." So yes, you can cast 2 cantrips on your turn, if one uses your Action and the other your Bonus Action. You also can use the Fighter's 2nd-level Action Surge ability, which gives you a 2nd action, to cast two leveled spells. HOWEVER, if cast a Bonus Action spell that turn, any other spells you cast must be cantrips. (Nasty, NASTY rule!) -At 1:13:20, the ranged attack against the prone, unconscious goblin would NOT have disadvantage, because Disadvantage from it being prone is offset by the Advantage due to it being unconscious. Advantage is negated by Disadvantage (even 5 sources for Advantage are negated by 1 source for Disadvantage).

[@Mithguar]

One thing I don't agree with in Pathfinder is action cost of picking up items after you got knocked out. This fight demonstrates it in a great way. Fighter got up and now he would have to spend 2 actions to get both shield and weapon. First of all, it's not like you are dramatically falling, flinging your gear around. Shield will most likely be strapped to your arm (look up how most shields are held. You hold a handle but your arm also goes through strap in most cases). Weapon you could easily grab while you are getting up, even when you support yourself getting up. So you spent action to get up. Now you spend 2nd action to get down and pick up shield. Then you spend 3rd action to get down again to pick up weapon. So what is happening here? Are we fighting for our life or doing squats? For the record, that is the only issue I have with actions. All other interaction actions make sense.

[@Globbyismy_Hobby]

@@Mithguar I agree with the complaint. I house ruled that getting up lets you grab your dropped gear, IF, its dropped next to you.

[@rakynthosdarkkon1519]

I forgot that crits take you to dying 2 immediately. I think we would have had a character death last session if we had used this rule.

[@7heHierarch]

​@@Mithguar shields CAN be strapped to your arm in Pathfinder. The tradeoff is you can no longer drop it as a free action. You need to spend an action to unstrap it if you need two hands to do something (like climb after falling and catching an edge)

[@griffinski8978]

One thing I noticed, the Fighter was taking the Guard exploration activity, so wouldn't that have given him two extra AC to mitigate that crit? Good video as always, though!

[@comfortablegrey]

This is it. Ron has created the perfect genre of content for me: multi-dimensional TTRPG analysis.

[@paralysekid]

Lmao, true

[@A2forty]

Very much for me also

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

With cat!

[@HollowRoll]

I know you fudged the rolls to get as much info in as possible, but it's very funny to me that if this were a real combat the players would be so frustrated by how terribly they rolled and how well the goblins rolled.

[@lorenzovaletti4951]

Indeed, and also a fighter in PF2e missing 5 turns in a row? No. Virtually unheard of xD

[@otisl.1422]

​@@lorenzovaletti4951tell that to my dice😂

[@Tom-vx7qh]

Worst case scenario during analysis: this will provide great information to use later Worst case scenario in game: THE TREES ARE ALIVE AND THEY ARE OUT FOR BLOOD

[@revolverclassic8248]

​@@Tom-vx7qhthe trees are alive and they speak goblin 😂

[@illoney5663]

The rules for "not casting more than one spell per turn" in 5e are specifically tied to bonus action spells. If you have an additional action (Action Surge) you can cast two spells per turn (action + Action Surge, if you cast a single bonus action spell, then neither can be leveled and must be cantrips). You can also cast another spell on your turn as a reaction, though RAW not if you cast a spell on that same turn using a bonus action (could however still cast a reaction spell during someone else's turn on the round). This is also a great example to use whenever people say that 5e is simple. It's really not, it just pretends to be.

[@soninhodev7851]

exactly, like, i get what makes people think that is simple, and like you said, that is just a facade, a facade created because D&D skipped leg day at the gym...

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Oh dear. Even this rules lawyer, after nine years, keeps getting this wrong. And well hot damn: the fact that your spellcasting is limited only when you cast a spell that arguably takes LESS effort (a bonus action spell) makes my head spin.

[@cinderheart2720]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG They made the rules without considering multiclassing it feels like.

[@mirtos39]

I dont believe this is correct. Any spells beyond the first must be a cantrip. Unless there is somewhere else that publishes it, even an additional action granted by action surge, you can still only get 1 "spell" (levelled spell) and the rest must be cantrips.

[@martinchua9104]

@@mirtos39 googling “casting bonus action spells” gives me this from roll20 A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. Reading it, there is no restriction against casting 2 levelled spells in 1 turn using your actions in 5e.

[@rod4309]

I feel like he needed to take sooo many notes to make this for us.

[@lotrotk375]

Great comparison! Very instructive, you clearly put a lot of work into this! Also happy that the video leaves it to the beholder to decide which system seems most fun to them

[@coulcollins3137]

How was this posted almost a week before the video??

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

​@@coulcollins3137 Patreon supporters get early access

[@NinaFelwitch]

I've run the Lost Mine of Phandelver multiple times and that first encounter really is quite deadly if the goblins fight to the death. So usually when the party manages to take down 2 of them, the other 2 surrender and the goblins don't try to kill, since they want to take prisoners. I do the same for the goblin hideout.

[@Sensorium19]

In old school D&D reaction checks (things deciding they don't want to fight) and morale checks (thing deciding to stop fighting) were key to managing lethality. It's one of those old mechanics that I'm surprised has never really come back to in D&D5E or PF2E as far as I know. correct me if there something equivalent in PF2E.

[@revolverclassic8248]

​@Sensorium19 how would you add that to Pathfinder 2? I'm not familiar with older editions and I'd be interested to make it more random instead of preset. Maybe once the enemies reach half strength (in number or total hp among all members) they each (or group roll) will saves against the level DC of the party? That's my gut instinct idea

[@meatybtz]

@@revolverclassic8248 Honestly, it's up to the GM to figure out in PF2. No intrinsic moral rules. You can use reasonable reaction. A group of monsters that is known to fight to the death would have a really high morale or infinite/unbreakable, while.. say a weedy goblin might have a low moral and you do a check on that with D20 with a penalty for every wound and or death/KO. PF2, structurally, leads itself to new feat ideas and action ideas based on the concept of morale in an encounter. Players could use "demoralize" to increase the likelihood of the monsters fleeing. You would also need to account mechanically for cascading morale failures. AKA, goblin one decides it's time to leg it, goblin two see's his buddy leggin it and gets a penalty against an immediate morale check, if he fails, he decides his buddy had a good idea and legs it too.. and onward it would go. In many ways, as a long time GM, I am actually against every battle being a fight to the death. It's so ridiculous that it breaks immersion. Only the most mad, insane, aggressive, etc monsters/person would stand there trading blows with the players to the end. In many ways, having such fights to the death be more rare adds to the cinematic effect of such fights and the impact on the players and how they approach the game and even combat. Every fight to the death encourages murder-hoboing. Cornering someone might lead to a battle to the last, so maybe you don't need to slaughter the entire goblin civilization to complete the encounter. Maybe just make them decide to look for greener pastures, town saved, goblins gone, much less risk to players.

[@leonardosimiaodeluna]

41:34 You didn't explicitly say it here, but a death saving throw is also a saving throw, so it benefits from the bless spell.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks. Though I venture to say that might not be intended since it works differently from other saves. (Adding to my corrections.)

[@BlueTressym]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Death saves can benefit from Bless since Bless affects ALL saves. Abilities that boost specific saves won't help, however, since the death save doesn't have an attribute attached to it and of course, you can't be proficient in death saves (though I think there's either a race or a subclass that lets you gain death save proficiency). The Resistance spell will help too. Otherwise, best hope the gods are in a good mood. The text on death saves (PHB p. 197) notes that spells or features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw can aid you.

[@mirtos39]

or having a paladin nearby.

[@BlueTressym]

@@mirtos39 Good point, I'd somehow forgotten that one.

[@mirtos39]

@@BlueTressym It gets out of hand. I dont strive to kill PCs as a DM but I like for there to be a challenge. If you have a paladin in the group especially once it gets to be the larger radius, it gets to be almost guaranteed sucess. 5e turns into "easy mode".

[@zanzaklaus2496]

I was worried the pathfinder law school series was ended early, what with all the D&D youtubers trying pathfinder videos and the occupation of UC berkeley library. Glad this wasn't forgotten in the action-packed last couple months. Love this series!

[@sunlighto9]

Would you do this again for a mid or high level party? Level 8 or 9 for example? I know I'm asking alot here, since higher level mean much more things to track in both system for 1 person, but I think higher level will bring out more strengths and weaknesses of both systems.

[@jasonweible2834]

yeah. I would love to see a comparison with level 20 parties. The pathfinder characters would have to band together to maybe take out a level 24 monster while the DnD party will easily take out 4 liches riding 4 ancient red dragons in about 4 rounds.

[@OsmerDevere]

Been playing D&D since 3.5 and 5e since just before the pandemic started. One of the guys from my Sunday group, some of his other friends and I are all PF2e newbies. We're going to be starting up next month. All of that background to say that your videos are amongst our favorite for saturating our brains with information prior to our first session. This video in particular really help show the similarities and differences of the two systems super clearly. Finally subbed (after consuming too many videos without doing so). Keep up the great work!

[@simmonslucas]

I was thinking that having a number of dice rolled counter would be interesting. Maybe a counter on the number of times the DM/GM needs to deliberate on a resolution; I have felt that D&D is cumbersome because I have to decide on an outcome.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Perhaps, tho GM and table preference play a role here. Some people like more dice, others less. It is generally agreed that PF2 does have more "holes" in its rules than 5E, however. With some tables that might be fine, but if a DM's experience is that they feel like they are having to adjudicate too much, then going with a genuine rules-light system or a more mechanically-supportive system is probably the way to go. EDIT : I switched PF2 and 5E in the wrong place, whoops! Keeping the error so the response still makes sense

[@zolgathor]

​@TheRulesLawyerRPG I would disagree, I think DnD 5e has more holes in its rules. It's very seldom I cannot find an official rule or subsystem that covers questions or concerns in PF2e.

[@gregorycardoso8925]

Can you develop what do you mean by having more holes ? Any example comes to your mind ?

[@anneaunyme]

@@gregorycardoso8925 For example, let's say a PC wants to repair their broken sword. In PF2 there is a rule for that, in DD5 the DM has to make one up. Let's say a PC meets a Gelatinous Cube and wants to know more about how dangerous it is: PF2 has Recall Knowledge rules, DD5 doesn't.

[@gregorycardoso8925]

@@anneaunyme i know that. But he Said PF2 HAS MORE HOLES than 5e, that's what made me be like "wtf. How ?"

[@rookie2128]

42:58 and because all attacks from within 5ft against an unconscious creature turn into critical hits that would mean 2 death save failures if a monster wanted to finish a downed player off

[@voodoochild1975az]

I've wanted this video. I've played both, but never with purpose for comparison. My preference is Pathfinder. I feel it is the more flexible, more powerful system with more options. I do not feel it is more complex or harder to play. This comparison bears this impression out. It also kind of reaffirms my analogy of 5e vs Pathfinder. We've come full circle folks. At least those of us old enough to remember.... It's D&D vs AD&D all over again. 5e is D&D, PF is AD&D. Pathfinder is from a different publisher and it's not called D&D.... But it's the more advanced version of the same game.... Just like the old 80s/90s split in rules.

[@AlastarTehMaster]

Yo that pf2e rogue player must be so mad though. ''CAN I GET A HEALING HERE!! WORST CLERIC GODDAMN!!! SPENT THE ENTIRE FIGHT ON MY ASS BEING CRITTED BY THE DM EVERY ATTACK!!''

[@atherton01]

I agree. As a player, I would have been unhappy with the Cleric leaving me down as the Rogue. A terrible thing to do to another player - and it hurts the party as a whole by impacting the action economy.

[@SheppiTSRodriguez]

Compared side by side, both look super fun, like damn

[@JonWaterfall]

Love the video 33:00 remember that you can not normally step INTO a square with difficult terrain unless the creature has an ability or effect that would let them step into difficult terrain.

[@ZombieApocalypse09]

Very cool idea. It definitely shows how these mechanical differences end up impacting the battles. It also ends up highlighting why I enjoy PF2e more. The comparative lack of decision making in 5e RAW is why so many 5e players look for what many refer to as "creative solutions." On the flip side, the glut of options available in Pathfinder 2e is why many players who come from 5e say stuff like "There's no room to be creative." Which I disagree with wholeheartedly. Not only is creativity baked in because coming up with the best or most in character way to use your three actions can be a fun puzzle all its own, but any "Creative" solution you could come up with in 5e you could do in 2e too likely with a lot more mechanical support to make adjudicating it easier for the GM and more impactful for the game.

[@nicolasvillasecaali7662]

There was a lot of work done for this and it shows, good job putting this together to let us see a hands on of how different both games run outside a void

[@GaleSilverwind]

Poor Merisiel was down for most of the fight, and her beloved wife Kyra, instead of healing her and getting her back up, chose to go kill a goblin instead :(

[@atherton01]

I have to agree with you, here. I was wondering if the rogue player had to leave halfway through the game. It is painful for me as the GM to see the healer specifically choose not to heal a character when unconscious. That player is just then sitting there, doing nothing, with no ability to participate.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

True! But I needed a chance to show PF2e's weapon traits, and the Tutorial Gods are cruel

[@GaleSilverwind]

@@atherton01 It was mostly a tongue-in-cheek comment about Kyra and Merisiel being a canon married couple since Kyra totally acted out of character. Plus Ronald is the one piloting everything so I have no worries about a player just sitting there doing nothing lmao

[@brnddi]

11:40 I think the cover working both ways thing should definitely be the exception rather than a norm in Pathfinder 2E. A goblin hiding in ambush would certainly pick the kind of cover, such as a waist-high rock, that wouldn't impede shooting their bow at all, but would grant them cover from their assaillants.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

The waist-high rock is one of my usual exceptions.

[@jasonweible2834]

I house ruled that in my game. If you are standing next to the object providing cover, it doesn't count against you but if the cover is further than that it does. That way you can choose to poke just around the corner of a building or tree enough to fire but can't do anything about that tree halfway between you and the target.

[@bokajon]

The advantage system is so boring. Especially without 4 degrees of success.

[@themaplebeard]

I quite like the advantage system in 5E. It's an easy you either have it or you don't. One of the issues that I disliked with 4E that Pathfinder seemed to adopt were all the small additional modifiers that you could add which at my table led to the players or myself trying to find ways to negate it which eats up a lot of time.

[@bokajon]

@@themaplebeard I guess it's a matter of taste. Some people prefer simple systems others complex systems.

[@Kiaulen]

At my 5e table, we resolve initiative ties by dex mod, then players first. Still watching, but this is shaping up to be another phenomenal rules lawyer video ❤

[@Kiaulen]

I really appreciate how precise your words are, Ronald. You never hand waved throughout the video. It was always exact terms from the respective books.

[@Sullanoss]

Is that a Megancam? Is this new? I am surprised. Great video too. I really enjoy the attention to detail and explanations. They really help this old d&d player transition to pf2. edit: nevermind, I see it now. Megan's just conveniently located behind you in the shot. Either way it's great. Go cat go.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I've had a 2nd dedicated Megan Cam but I have found that if I position her Box and point my camera a certain way, she reliably comes into frame! Good Kitty.

[@chrisweber2739]

Interesting watch. One thing to point out, you do not declare that you want to spend hit dice before a short rest. You expend them at the end of the rest and can even decide to spend as you see the results. "The player can decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll". I guess that's because Short rest hit dice is not the character making an action but the player deciding the outcome of one. Not that it matters in this case because the characters each only have the one.

[@rod4309]

19:30 what action is "leaning out"? i've been having trouble getting my head around using cover effectively. you know, without giving my enemies cover too.

[@ДимаДавыдов-ю4з]

It's written on 477 CRB page "Special Circumstances" for cover. Basically, it's up to GM and circumstance to cost action for leaning out "Your GM might allow you to overcome your target’s cover in some situations. If you’re right next to an arrow slit, you can shoot without penalty, but you have greater cover against someone shooting back at you from far away. Your GM might let you reduce or negate cover by leaning around a corner to shoot or the like. This usually takes an action to set up, and the GM might measure cover from an edge or corner of your space instead of your center. "

[@mrmuffins951]

This is amazing! I hope you do a similar one for exploration too. Essentially running the same dungeon in 5e and pf2e minus the encounters

[@thestylemage2092]

39:30 around 15 minutes since initiative, hasn't done anything because he fell for the perception trap (or rather the idiot designing the pregen) and will now go down...

[@szegediadam8793]

Ok this was a realy cool video. Thanks! I realy thought the dnd party going to die there XD

[@AbeldeBeerMusic]

Fantastic video!! I have 5+ years experience with 5e, both as player and DM. You did an excellent job at explaining the rules and taking an objective stance. Cool to see how PF2 ‘fixes’ some of 5e’s shortcomings. The one and only thing I missed on the 5e side was a concentration check for the Cleric (Bless) when they were hit with an attack. But I can imagine you didn’t want to go too deep into concentration.

[@atherton01]

Good call!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Do you have a timestamp for that? Skimming the vid I don't see the 5e cleric get damaged. In hindsight I should have included that, since it is important to include that since it's forgotten so often.

[@AbeldeBeerMusic]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Ha, I just watched the video again at 2x speed, and indeed: the cleric doesn’t get damaged. So it must have been me expecting/hoping that concentration would be addressed in the video. Curious whether PF2 takes a different approach. I’ve only played in person and we always use status/condition rings, one of which is concentration. It brings it more to the foreground and highlights why constitution is such an important ability for casters.

[@bluecarpettiles]

That was really interesting. I have been playing and running 5e for about 10 years and I’m now looking at changing to Pf2e as well as some other systems after everything that happened earlier this year. It was really good to see the differences and I like how much more interesting fights can be in Pf2e although there will be a lot for my players to think about and learn.

[@rawnissilver2934]

I love the chapter name "hide and go sneak." it really helps to remember what you have to do to become undetected.

[@SengokuTheGouda]

This is a fantastic video! I one thing that caught my eye though were some of the modules on the pathfinder side. Do you happen to have a list somewhere of what you use? I recognized a few, but I’m curious about a couple, specifically the ring around the active token, and whatever was automating which goblins were observed. Thank you so much for these videos. My group made the switch last august and your videos were a ton of help. I can’t believe I wasn’t already subscribed! That has been remedied.

[@SengokuTheGouda]

I just realized that you weren’t using a module for the observed. I just looked away when you revealed the other goblins >.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I pinned a comment in the #vtt-advice channel of my server, showing a relatively-recent list of mods: discord.com/channels/870925179570753616/943926525688954930 I did some digging but I'm sorry can't pin down right now where the current-actor ring around the token comes from. Could be base PF2E EDIT: I think it's Combat Booster

[@TamaHawkLive]

You're single handedly the most valuable content creator for exposure and unbiased breakdowns of TTRPGs.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

This video was excellent. I played my first PF2 game last Sunday and in our first fight I got killed and we were only fighting 2 Zombie Shamblers. This helps me figure out what would be a better approach to combat, hopefully my next character is a bit longer lived.

[@anneaunyme]

My first game of DnD was our full group dying against those very goblin featured in this video. Turns out if your whole group is surprised *and* acts last on initiative, you are going to have a bad time. PF is overall harder, so you still get toasted, but the variance feels less cruel.

[@9bitmedia]

This is amazing. As someone familiar with D&D but wanting to start playing PF2e, this shows combat in a context I know and translates it to the combat I want to learn. Just perfect!!

[@MichaelGaskin]

Foundry doesn't auto-calculate the damage? I'm used to Fantasy Grounds and pretty much everything is done for me. Is there an extension I could get to have it auto-calc?

[@Nemhyz]

at 1:02:55 The cleric CANNOT use healing word. He used a slot on bless, and then used healing word on the rogue so that's both slots down. This changes the fate of the DnD side of things completely

[@maxaraykin]

1:13:20 My 2 cents of D&D rules lawyering: the goblin is prone (DISADV on ranged attacks), but he is also Unconscious (ADV on an attack rolls) from the Sleep spell, which overall should let the fighter roll normally, since they cancel each other. Unless the Unconscious was removed somehow and I missed it

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks, adding a correction

[@12sephiroth]

god damn! i really like the way pathfinder plays, however i will not be able to convince my player to change systems... BUT: i already included some houserules, that introduces some pathfinder mechanics ^^ maybe i can convert the system one rule at a time xD

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

This was a "jump in headfirst" and me making every turn complicated to show as many rules as possible. May wanna look at the Beginner Box (I have a vid on it) which is meant to easy you in. Basic Liches did a video on it where they strongly say it is easy enough to learn, Dungeon Dudes also did a review

[@someonewithsomename]

I actually did not know how different 5e feels. But I understand clearly now why a lot players complain, that everything takes an action. In 5e it seems like there is never a turn, when you waste the turn completely. Their action rules are tuned such way, so that every round a pc could feel impact of their actions. Which is quite nice, to be honest. While in Pathfinder you literally have to spend 3 actions to stand up and pick up two weapons. And you can get knocked down again after that. Also imagine you are a character which is less impactful in combat by design, like a bard. Get prone, stand up, pick up weapon, play inspire courage for just +1 to a party - at this point you are just a spectator of your fighters dealing massive crits and killing everything around them. Also, by comparison, for a 5e player, the rules of Pathfinder really must sound like it's Mathfinder. Because you have to keep track of much more variables and do more math. Which you don't do so much in dnd 5e. I also see that what experienced 5e players forget, is that there seem to be a shit tonne of edge cases, homebrew rules and general unspoken agreements in 5e, that they just take for granted. But as a new ttrpg player, I find it much more complicated to learn all the edge cases, rather than simply follow the rules of the engagement, that are written clearly in the rule book. 3 actions, everything takes an action - done. I understand it. I have a debuff, creature has a buff - math heavy, but I understand it. In dnd you just have to learn everything to play the game.

[@Martick05545]

This combat frustrates me in 5e because players that are “keeping an eye open for danger” or “on guard” are given no benefit mechanically. Seeing a dead horse on a road should be enough to put a character on edge, and by 5e rules you shouldn’t be “surprised” anymore. Despite this, should the goblins roll well enough that is what the adventure recommends and subjects players to. Players shouldn’t be subjected to a surprise round, and at worst should be allowed to take the dodge action.

[@boris_bulletdodger9109]

Positive comment

[@undrhil]

Disparaging comment veiled as a positive comment with a :) emoticon

[@zealouslyonpsychedelics]

If a player in 5e is actively scouting they get to roll a perception check to find things

[@TheMarrethiel]

As a DM for a group that changed to PF2 about half a year ago, it is much more deadly. However, as a martial character, there is far more choice in the tactical environment. On top of that martials have a strategic element too: I've just started Kingmaker and we have a fighter and a champion. They are considering options like the fighter using reach and the champion using a shield and dart. The champion has an ability that lets him use what is normally a melee reaction at range. Or the fighter might pick up a shield, and the champion could use the polearm for different ways of using his reactions. I do dislike Vancian spell casting, as most of my gaming time is with a mana based style. It would have been lovely if they'd broken away from dnd here, but oh well. That being said, I can see that high level spell casters will have a lot of options.

[@SwingRipper]

Early access patreon pog

[@Apfeljunge666]

just Fyi, Goblins in 5e only have 15 AC when they have their Shield equipped. Some of those goblins used bows so they should have 13 AC, unless they spend and action+object interaction to don a shield.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks, you're right. Yeah, the statblock should make this clearer

[@Apfeljunge666]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG yeah, its easy to overlook.

[@user-qz6nk1le5n]

where is the Pinkerton's Raid in the D&D side (?)

[@darthfastball1150]

34:34 “We’ll see how the dying condition works later.” More ominous words have never been spoken…

[@uchuuseijin]

The first turn surprise effect in BG3 has completely broken the game you can kill almost every encounter with normal attacks before they even have a chance to respond it's kinda lame haha

[@patricklapinski1526]

Yeaaaah bg3 is dnd more in name than mechanics lmao

[@shemetz]

At 51:27, you mention that the goblin's attack roll is too high for the fighter's reactive shield to prevent, and implicitly decide that it means the fighter doesn't use that reaction and instead saves it for the upcoming AoO. However, the rules are very ambiguous as to whether features like Reactive Shield are choices you can make before or after seeing if they'll protect you! If you use your ruling of "player sees roll before deciding", it makes the reaction much stronger, as it isn't wasted 80% of the time (indeed, here this ruling is the reason the fighter got to kill the goblin).

[@shemetz]

I'd like to hear your thoughts regarding your ruling and your opinion about Paizo's intentions with feats like this: Reactive Shield, Nimble Dodge, Nimble Roll, Hit the Dirt!, Deflect Arrow, Pirouette, etc. Particularly, note the difference in triggers between some of them, and note how Deflecting Shot *does* specify that you know whether the +2 will change the outcome.

[@Blegg000]

The trigger for reactive shield is simply "An enemy hits you with a melee strike". I don't think that is ambigouous at all. I don't see how it can be interpreted as anything but that a successful hit has been rolled. Now, if the reactive shield can still be triggered after the damage is rolled is another story...

[@andrewdemarco3512]

The shield is after you know you are hit. Generally when something hits you the GM asks "does a 20 hit your AC", so you will know if +2 will get you above that 20 or not

[@andrzejc.9572]

45:10, how does goblin #3 (one next to wizard and rogue) resurrect?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Hmm, it doesn't! It is a special Tutorial Rogue, which has the special ability of coming to life when rules need to be explained! =D

[@mikemleczko5565]

Amazing. Ability to compare the differences right in front of you. perfect for anyone weighing the two systems. I had actually been considering 2e to 5e since I wasn't sure 2e worked smoothly enough for some narrative combats - but some things i can just bake in - like raise shield should have said 1 action to maintain so it doesn't appear to players a shield is going down and up constantly for those wanting that defense every turn, for example.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

If it helps at all, think of it like Exploration activities: it's what you focus on. So more like a defensive stance the way Fighting Defensively was a thing in 3e/PF1

[@theshadowcult]

You can cast any number of spells on your turn as you have ways of doing it. Its only if you use a bonus action to cast a spell, then yuou cant cast anymore spells unless its a cantrip with your action. Because 5e...

[@salasart]

this was spectacularly detailed, for those of us that are relatively new to TTRPGs, Thank you!

[@parkerdixon8300]

Hi, I love your videos! How can my party get the feature in Foundry that shows distance when you're moving your character? We have been using the built in ruler and counting but when you dragged the goblins to show their range it is different than what we have. Thanks!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It's called Drag Ruler

[@charmandenator5686]

Very happy to see this series return. I had tried a similar thought experiment before, but it's much easier to see the differences in Foundry. Great set up, I myself have killed 4 parties in 5e during that goblin encounter, it's so dangerous.

[@mikaelmarkus340]

Very cool video! It would be neat to see a comparison between high-level play of the two systems. Though that might be more difficult...

[@chillinboy07]

Legal eagle collaboration

[@tylersummers9918]

I really appreciate how this script isnt written to address DND5e players or pf2e players and doesn't assume knowledge of one ruleset or the other.

[@mikaelious9550]

This is a really good comparison! It takes no side on which system is better or worse, just shows how they do similar things differently. As a purely PF2e player, I learned a lot from 5e this way! Also, that poor Fighter. Highest hit chance of the party, yet keeps failing literally because of plot armor. :D

[@solomani5959]

This is very helpful. How is high level play? So 10 to 20? This broke me as a DM in 5e. Way too much work.

[@andrewpeli9019]

The rogue most likely would not be surprised. Any decent DM is not going to call the rogue suprised at a scene when there was clearly a recent ambush and the party members are actively seeking threats. Rather than be surprised, each individual goblin would roll their stealth check and they'll be hidden from the players at the start of combat which will grant them advantage on their first attack. Monster suprise rounds are relatively rare in DND and should be reserved for instances when either the players did something foolish or when the encounter catches the entire party truly off-guard. Surprise rounds are devestating and can cause TPKs.

[@averyadams6488]

Running the beginner box for my group right now and your videos have helped so much! Your the best Pf2e KZbinr out there for GM’s trying to switch.

[@Zertryx]

Im sorry but already your experiment is kinda failing once we get to the Fighters turns and the second goblin. First off you make the 2 fighteres do DIFFERENT kinda plays. one decides to ready, and the pf2e one decides to delay. but with the delay he runs up and attacks ... why would you not make the D&D fighter then run up and attack since he can see the goblins? (if your reason is so he can protect his ally, then why would the fighter in PF not do the same thing?) Essentially you already changed the outcomes of each by doing it this way instead of them doing the same kinda things. Again for the second goblin in 5E you had him attack then run. but in PF you had him attack twice then STAY. why would he not attack once and then DOUBLE move? like i know you like PF2E more but you are defiantly playing for the bias of it more in this senerio. instead of having the encounters play out the same you are playing them different but you are playing the PF2E in favor more than D&D one.

[@omarrivera9457]

Thank you so much for doing this side by side comparison. Absolutely excellent and very educational.

[@sotech10]

I need the 8th part. But all in all, I got hooked and loving PF2e thanks to your bosses videos! My tables are loving the customization and hope I can get better and learn more from your channel to apply!

[@soldier660]

Great video man ^^ !!! thank you : ) !!!

[@danielstohr6391]

You are awesome :D thank you so much (new Pathfinder 2e GM here)

[@omegaroguelp]

what foundry modules are you using for pf2e?

[@sethb3090]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2qyaXaijc2drrs

[@darkhol222]

Still can't understand why even in pathfinder dying check is flat check. If you are more endurable, you must die slower. Where is my constitution bonus for this roll.

[@charlespinell5091]

Fire death crappy fighter pathfire please pick him out and get himself Jesus. Give yourself a shovel or off dog crap. He has to be better than fire but I know you're a shot trying to show those points but he was so pathetically every time like really dude to you have to miss all your same throw

[@Walthanar]

Great video, I am planning to start my new campaign switching from DnD5e to PF2e and your channel is amazing for this. I also have a totally unrelated question: do you use a foundry module, and in that case, which one, to make that... "highlight circle" slightly obscuring the surrounding area? When you highlight stuff on the map or even in the UI. Is it visible to connected players as well? I'd like to copy it to show players stuff on the UI, and it is amazingly elegant :) Thank you for your content and everything!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

In Windows a tap the Ctrl key a few times

[@Augustaguy2010]

What mods are you using for your Pathfinder Foundry instance? I've never seen some of these things you have coming up on the screen and would love to have them for my own game.

[@xezzee]

Taking cover is also different ^_^ In D&D 5e you can just go behind cover and get +2 them from half cover, do a range attack and drop prone for 2/3 cover +5 😂 Dm walked 3 enemies next to me 😅 While prone all range attacks are with Disadvantage against me and I had +5AC ... When they got next to me their attacks would be with advantage and no bonus. Two used dash action and one was close enpugh to hit me with advantage 😢 I so deserved that 😂 Of course I cannspend half speed to stand up to remove my disadvantage from my attacks 😉 thus abusing the rules. Hidden has benefits but you can use Prone behing a bolder as Wizard or Cleric. PF 2e you get +2 from cover like staying behind a tree and the enemy and can use Take Cover action to make the bonus +4 But it is an Action 😅 Lean, Attack Take Cover would benthree actions to have +4 without having -2 on attack. Don't know fully how full cover works in either game but in D&D 5e it is easier to abuse. Like you can move 10ft, tale range attack and move 10ft and stay in full cover behing a wall. Doing so in PF 2e would require Move action twice 😂 PF 2e also Tower Shield rules are weird. You can take Rise Shield for +2 and another action to take cover for +4. . . Now, question. Can I take Hide action? 😂 I took cover and got +2 so cak I hide behikd my Tower Shield using three actions? 😅 ALSO ALSO if I raise my tower shield it allows other people to Take Cover and you also offer normal cover ... Can enemy hide from me? How ajout take cover? 😂 I klow as DM you probably rule no, but RAW vs RAI?? Tower Shield Raised vs Enemy hides behind my tower shield 😂 Cover is weird ik PF 2e 😅 and you can abuse D&D 5e's cover. Gobling shoots, hides and moves behind another cover. If the hide was succesful you no longer know where it is. Ofc as DM the Goblin would have to be at least lightly obscered when moving to not brake the stealth and might require stelth roll depending on DM and often perks argument over hiding in compat. Also doing the hide at the end allows you to block vision 😂 thus the benefit that some spells require you to see so Goblin hiding is grrrrreat, for examble Sacred Flame requires you to See the target while Ray of Frost does not but is made woth disadvantage thus range attack are with disadvantage. As I said abusing cover in D&D 5e is strong while in PF 2e it is lore well balanced.

[@jamesv.hillegas-elting3543]

I appreciate the amount of work that went into this comparison, but from my perspective it’s lacking the final section on key takeaways. I’m not asking for qualitatively what’s better or worse, but as someone who hasn’t done such a deep-dive (and who doesn’t have the time), what is the summary of how these systems differ in practical terms? For example, to me the Pathfinder system seems much more tactically “crunchy” and harder while the DnD system seems more streamlined and easier. I didn’t get much value from this video because I don’t discern any key comparative takeaways.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

This is part 1 of 2

[@Pistonrager]

Its is almost always a superior tactic to be a ranged skirmisher than a melee combatant.

[@wizardlythug1129]

Gives me a great reason to tell my player, this game is another universe and just show them this video.

[@wilywonky]

Oh yeah, I love these kinds of videos. Strangely relaxing.

[@---tr8fx]

so, in average in any campaign with the rules lawyer the average dice roll for the players is 2

[@solomani5959]

I remember this battle. Killed one of the PCs and dropped another.

[@plixeon]

This was incredible. Thank you.

[@konsimaurer7922]

God damn, sold. I will swap. How and where do I start?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Awesome! Check out my Discord server (link in description). People will answer your questions. Beginner Box is usually recommended for 1st group game. Quest for the Golden Candelabra is free on Steam if you want to play/learn thru play now!

[@konsimaurer7922]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Thanks good sir!

[@batteredskullsummit9854]

Pathfinder seems unnecessarily complicated and slow imo

[@jomesjayce]

Amazing job man!

[@Sensorium19]

The range on a 5E short bow is generous. The range of a PF2E short bow is bonkers.

[@andrewwahba5006]

I need to know what mods you're using that allowed you to animate those spells like that

[@starrius]

i think you should point out that a natural 20 in pf2 isn't always a critical hit.

[@paulhefferan8106]

A beautiful piece of analysis.

[@zeeeej]

I get why you had the D&D fighter use the Ready action (to show how Delay works), but that would be an awful tactical choice in a real game.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It is! Which is unfortunate, especially once Extra Attack comes into play.

[@honestbenny]

yeah, but average 5e player is really bad so they make a lot of awful decisions since 5e doesn't teach you the importance of tactics, understanding system or teamwork. So what he did is still miles better than what average casual 5e players would do... I know casue I run AL quit a lot before pandemic and jesus, most people that play 5e has not tactical sense, not to even mention mechanical knowledge....

[@zeeeej]

@@honestbenny I haven't found 5e players to be any smarter or dumber than PF2 players

[@RodneyTylerPDX]

Do you have any Pathfinder 1e content archived?

[@LaytonGB]

At 1:10:16 you say that the Rogue spends all hero points to stabilize. It's my understanding that spending all hero points actually returns a character to 1 hit point unwounded.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Early printings of the Core Rulebook said that in some places, but no that is not the rule.

[@keegangates5073]

I always forget that DND 5e just ignores geometry, because counting every other diagonal square as 2 is just too hard. Never mind that it’s mathematically proven with the Pythagorean Theorem A^2 + B^2 = C^2 (1^2+1^2=C^2 -> 1+1=C^2 -> 2=C^2 -> (I can’t find the square root symbol on my mobile phone so just pretend I used it) 1.49=C, which is rounded up to 1.5 for simplicity, so moving 2 squares diagonally is equal to 3 squares mod movement.

[@ksignorini]

What did you use in Foundry for the 5' Bless aura around 29:35? (Also, another great video.)

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It might be coming from Automated Animations + PF2e Animations + JB2A Animations

[@kevinbarnard355]

This was great Ronald. Thank you for the comparison and showcasing the variety in PF2. Not to defend 5e (it's way more complicated than it pretends to be), but at 1:13:25 kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3imfX9uj7p8jKc, the fighter's javelin throw would be a normal attack, not at disadvantage. While attack a prone enemy from range forces disadvantage, the target being unconscious grants advantage, so they cancel out. He hit anyway, but it wasn't quite so surprising/unlikely.

[@toxicthorn769]

Love the vid! Also, worst fighter ever lol

[@joxerthemighty9148]

it seems getting knocked down and getting back up is a lot more common to 5e ( but getting back into the fray is much faster, maybe this was noticed by game dev's ) making for a much faster and maybe less deadly game? P2e you stand longer but getting knocked down has several negatives... in combat healing is rougher in p2e but out of combat healing can be more forgiving.... wounded levels making healing your allies a little a scary proposition ( as they will be closer to death and become a threat once again, so enemies might direct their attention back to that character ). cover and stealth seem very useful in p2e. Was it called a Distract action?, that anyone can do it can be handy, and the multiple options for initiative is a different idea... I think I like it.

[@daniellemurnett2534]

Hold on I recognize this module! One of my players ran it once to give me a break from running our ongoing campaign. We immediately derailed the plot by failing to investigate the cart and TPK'd the moment we were sent back. I do remember my really fun and epic final stand as the party barbarian though, it sold me on martial classes instantly and singlehandedly. Never tried the module again lol

[@YellowCable]

I never played 5E nor PF2 only older Dnd; I seem to like 5E more at least for combat; PF2 is mechanically too complicated. I did like the doubling of damage on crit, but because it is easier to do compared with doubling the nr of dice rolled.

[@Thorarin]

Very nice comparison 🙂