How people perceive soundstage

Everyone hears soundstaging differently.

[@marcusbrsp]

Based on the thumbnail, I expected Paul to announce that the company is changing its name to SS Audio.

[@Floyd..B]

😆

[@robertpower3046]

😂 Heil Paul!

[@velocci6666]

@@Floyd..Bpaul is going to be the Angel of Sound

[@geniussnake497]

😂

[@finscreenname]

I've listened to the same song a 100 times and when I listen for different things (instruments, etc) I hear different things. I find myself having to stop doing it and just listen to the song because if not it's like looking at a painting and just seeing the red colors that end up just some random blotches on a canvas and not the whole painting.

[@BB..........]

I've always been very sensitive to phase and have been able to hear tape defects on recordings that most can't hear. 20 years ago when I worked for Magnolia HiFi in the Portland area, me and a coworker went to a customer's house to set up some new speakers and a couple other pieces. While standing on the front step waiting for them to answer I told my coworker that the speakers were wired out of phase. He looked at me like I had a 3rd eyeball. Sure enough, when we checked the wiring one speaker was wired backwards. He couldn't believe that I could hear that while not even in the house, but on the front steps.

[@staceymangham]

Out of electrical phase is easy to hear because of bass cancellation

[@glenncurry3041]

I have been able to detect not just channel to channel phasing, but absolute phasing of both channels 100% of the times I have been tested. I can walk into a room and tell you. While most people will not even accept that absolute phase exists.

[@BB..........]

​@@staceymangham Not when you're standing on the front step of the house when they have a small window open. It's easy to detect when you're right there in the room though.

[@BB..........]

@@glenncurry3041 I've rarely been able to tell the difference in absolute polarity. My old Parasound P/LD-2000 pre and current W4S STP-SE Stage 2 pre both have absolute polarity buttons, and i've messed around with it numerous times over the years, but have never been able to nail down the difference for some reason. 🤷‍♂

[@glenncurry3041]

@@BB.......... Hint. The great sucking sound! 🙂 Listen to horns and kick drums. To me they sound like they are being sucked away from me instead of projected forward. The initial impact of the kick drum seems to recede into the background instead of push forward. This is exactly what would be expected as the initial transient would be a negative voltage swing moving the driver away instead of towards you. I was rep for many Audiophile pressings including the JVC and Toshiba's back in the day. Some of their engineers liked to reverse the polarity on the kick drum mic to reduce groove excursion. Drives me crazy when I listen to them. "First by Sleepy" ("Sleepy" Hidehiko Matsumoto) Everything else on the DtoD is incredible. But every time the kick drum hits the sound gets sucked into the void behind the speakers.

[@Artemis_Prix]

Hi Paul, I agree with all of your points...soundstaging is multifactorial and requires all of the aspects you mentioned to come together. But, I do believe soundstaging also is dependent upon ones ability to hear high frequency sounds... thus, age can be a factor due to the gradual, age-dependent loss of one's ability to hear high-frequency sounds. One example I can give is that I recently replaced the tweeters in my speakers. The perceived height of the soundstage was about 7 feet at the listening position with the old tweeters. But, after I had installed the new ones, the perceived height dropped to only about 1 foot (almost a complete collapse)! I know it's because the tweeters didn't have a chance to break-in yet and were thus still stiff. But, that experience provided a great example of how the upper frequencies help to shape and generate the perceived soundstage. By implication, one's ability to hear those high frequencies will certainly play a role in how one "perceives" the soundstage as well.

[@MS-pw8yu]

I have to toe my right speaker out from on-axis less than my left due to hearing loss and a center image that is shifted to the left if I do not do this. Or, if I am using an amp or preamp with balance control, I can turn it to the right and all is good. Never understood why you would use balance until recently. Thanks, old(er) age! (please apply sarcasm there)

[@staceymangham]

Yes having both channels at the same level is ultra important, so if you are slightly deafer in one ear balance has to be restored, I would always use the balance control rather than different toe on the speakers if I had this problem.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

Fascinating. This might also explain some of the arguments we see concerning the subjective sound impact of certain aspects of stereo equipment. I witnessed vicious arguments about the impact of phase noise in digital reproduction. Many perceive a quite dramatic improvement in staging, bass quality and natural timbre with improved phase accuracy. Others argue that its all snake oil and we've been duped.

[@glenncurry3041]

I can graphically demonstrate the linear frequency related time shift distortion of PCM. And hear it. When things like increased staging are mentioned this is caused by the linear shift, separation of the highs from the lows. e.g. as a guitarist I notice the click of the pick being separated from the resonance of the string. So yes that would appear as "enhanced" detail because the click stands alone instead of coherent with the string.

[@stevefisher8323]

What Paul might have expanded on was the phase topic, and the impact of type of speaker design as well as the set up and room reflections. And type of music and variety of instruments in a given recording. One person may feel a certain combo of these yields (for him/her) better soundstage while another may not agree.

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🤗 SOMEDAY , I HOPE TO VISIT AND HEAR 👂🏻 FOR MYSELF 🤔💚💚💚

[@hippydippy]

Excellent Take!

[@michaeltamburello]

I propose that since everyone's head is shaped and sized differently, especially when it comes to the width of an individual ears, that may play a major part in phasing and overall soundstage perception. Great topic, Paul!

[@robinwukits6667]

Education and expectations are the biggest factors. Then comes your state of relaxation. Then comes speaker/room setup.. We can learn to listen better (education). Expectations are built when we listen to a particular track hundreds of times. We know what is coming/should come and our perception changes. I think that we all have had AMAZING listening events where the playback was very compromised (car, cheap radio, etc.). That kind of puts the technical/physical requirements in perspective.

[@PSA78]

Psychoacoustic is a big one, our brains really do a number on what the ears pick up, and it can be different for different people (like if someone likes odd or even harmonics etc). 😄 That's why subjective (non measured) reviews are kind of pointless.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

I find some reviewers tend to have a subjective perception that aligns with my own. So you have to kind of chose your reviewer for it to be relevant.

[@PSA78]

@@user-od9iz9cv1w I'm certainly not dismissing them all together, but I'm guessing there's a Lot of people out there who walked in and listened for the first time and just thought "oh, so this is what HiFi sounds like, as that's what they said in the magazine". 😄

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

@@PSA78 Understood. Your point about psychoacoustics is spot on. My perception changes from day to day. Some days I am just blown away, and other days I wonder where it went. I think it is just my brain having a bad day.

[@staceymangham]

@@user-od9iz9cv1w most definitely especially when stage width and bass extension diminishes

[@BeyondResolution]

Paul mentioning Darren.. we need to see an interview with Darren soon and catch up with him in his new job :)

[@glenncurry3041]

When younger and they were a bigger thing, I could walk thru a mall and point to the ultrasonic alarms at the entrances to store. In my 70's I can still hear high frequencies, like mechanical squeaks, others around me do not hear. (blind test) Because higher frequencies are better at providing location information, your high frequency hearing abilities are very important to the ability to localize a sound source. Then yes nature verses nurture. Because drum kits tend to be center mix and very strongly localized, I would ask newbies to my system to close their eyes and point to the drummer. Most had never thought of even trying to localize in a sound field. A big smile would come across their face as they would point! Likely the first time they ever realized something like that existed.

[@ShahidiSabri]

the best sound stage is an aural experience , whether a particular audio amplifier systems and the excellent loudspeaker systems , from a particular audio system , can we achieved excellent biaural stereo imaging out of a system , the perfections of the amplifier stereo ambience or stereo imaging circuitary of the audio system .

[@RumpledStiltskin-uz1uh]

I hear voices in my head, even when I know there is nobody home😵‍💫.

[@tomasandrescortelezzi1383]

I may consider changing thumbnail hahah😅

[@fereracarera]

Yes, my first thought as well!

[@printzapper]

The Carver C-4000 that I own has a setting for holographic listening, which I use mainly for live recordings on vinyl. If you are in the sweet spot and have another person adjust the holographic you can actually hear the position of the music change outward so it seems you'd be immersed in sound. Some recordings don't change, some recordings actually sound awful. It has something to do with separation and phase shift of higher and (maybe) lower frequencies.

[@gino3286]

hi thank you very much for bringing up a very fascinating topic Imho in order to get a good 3D soundstage the listening room plays an important role Ambient reflections being the worst offenders Said trivially any sound reflecing surface hit by the sound becomes a secondary source not aligned in time and space with the primary source i.e. speaker drivers Far from the famous ideal point source i mean Almost always putting some acoustic absorbing panels on walls improves the soundstage very clearly The walls disappear sonically at least It is like opening a window on the music event This could be the reason why many recording engineers prefer near field listening ? ok studios are almost always treated as well

[@tomday7309]

Hi Paul, my own hearing has suffered over my 73 years (first live concert was Jimi Hendrix when I was 19) so age and abusive noise has clipped my frequencies over about 8000 Hz according to the ear doctor. While we mostly hear in the 1200 to 2000 Hz range for speaking, I'm told, I look at my sound system with a response of 20-25,000 Hz and wonder as I listen to a live recording, "Did it really sound like that and how much staging am I missing?" I seem to get better results with my system by angling the speakers out slightly rather than aiming them at the listening spot.

[@janvanrookhuijzen8309]

This is one of the most interesting questions in ages.

[@davidhosmer1424]

I imagine two people wearing the same headphones hear different things. I am not a critical listener. Even in my younger listening days ( I am now 72 with hearing aids though I don't wear them usually) I didn't sit in the "sweet spot". I either roamed around doing stuff or my favorite is in the dark laying on the floor or sofa. Sorry to distress anyone but the music and the words are more important than the hardware. But - whatever floats your boat. Thanks for fun, learning videos.

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

It must sound amazing

[@alejandrorigonatto694]

Paul, don't forget the brain... he's trained and used to compensate certain things, idk if you hear about the Professor Theodor Erismann experiments on how brain adapt... i found it fascinating

[@wholiddleolme476]

I think you were onto something when your mentioned how people's ears differ, likewise the density of people's heads will also differ and this fact was integral in the 80's enthusiast of Binaural recording.

[@sandgroper1970]

Well I think age will have an effect . But I must admit that what I find strange, is sometimes On a quiet night / day in a dark room or not, I can listen to to a track or album I have listened to to a thousand times times before, I can find things , oh the sound of the drum, the strings , that will seem new to me.

[@sevestan]

Well said P!

[@davidstevens7809]

Our ears are not only shaped different but the canal is different diameter and length and angle.. heres something else to think about. Our ears are angled different and our skulls are different width an size and the bone is different thickness..it all matters. Amaising we hear at all

[@RudieVissenberg]

Thanks Paul for your explanation on this. I am puzzled by something I observed last Saturday at a demo for a very expensive audiophile brand of amplifiers. I was fortunate enough to sit in the sweet spot and the staging was excellent, the background was pitch 'black'. Every instrument and singer had its own place. So much so that it seemed they all were in their own place and were in seperate spaces. There ws no connection, no 'air' of a space they were in together. I have to admit that it sounded fantastic but left me dead cold, did not feel any emotion. Can staging go too far?

[@ronniecramer1252]

To give you an example of how different people hear music. I have a friend who is a music fanatic, but he is definitely not an audiophile. He’s getting close to 70 now, and recently sold his collection of almost 7000 LP’s and 6000 CD’s for 23K. He was at my house listening to my system which projects a great holographic soundstage. He was in the sweet spot. After two hours, he remarked “ It sounds great, but I like hearing the stereo separation from each speaker. Everything’s coming from behind and in the center. While criticizing my system, he gave me the best compliment I could have received. 😅

[@stevefisher8323]

Some folks like the stereo effect of that separation. And some recordings / mixes seek to emphasize that, and others don't.

[@ronniecramer1252]

@@stevefisher8323 My friend just bought a bluetooth CD player for his car. He said it sounds as good as anything he's ever heard. On the plus side, he doesn't have to spend a lot of money to be happy with the sound.

[@Evil_Peter]

Your ears certainly do a lot for your ability to perceive placement with audio. I know Sony has done research on this for surround sound, although I think it's mainly for their Playstation gaming. I haven't tried it, and I don't remember how far they've gotten in terms of applying it to headphones, stereo speakers and surround systems, but it involves making a scan of your ears so you can tailor it to your specific needs.

[@paulstubbs7678]

I was kind of suprised when I realised our ears can tell phase differences, when I was young I was playing around with crystal sets (radios) These output flea power so optimizing the impedance of your headphones to the output makes a big difference. One easy way with stereo phones is to ignore the common or ground terminal and apply the (mono) sound across the left and right terminals, giving twice the impedance of a single driver, as apposed to connecting the two phones in parallel (join left to right then apply sond between this common and ground) resulting in half a single drivers impedance. The upshot of all this is the sound is quite different between the two setups. In parallel the ears are in phase, as apposed to serial, completly out of phase. Of course the actual audio is identical, how ones head perceives it is totally different.

[@Voidoid77]

"Great Question" Me: "Wonderful answer" - sage words, Mr. McGowan... very best regards from another Paul, in Japan (ex-Scotland.. possibly you have some Celtic in your bloodline??).

[@NoEgg4u]

On Madonna's "The Immaculate Collection" double album (CDs, too), QSound was used, giving some aspects of some songs the widest soundstage that I have ever heard. When my niece was visiting, I played her "Vogue" from that album (the vinyl version). At the 1:05 time stamp, there is an (electronic?) instrument (which I can't identify) that gives the illusion of coming from nearly directly to your right. It sounds like there is a speaker to your right. It is clear and focused. Well, my niece did not hear it. Well, she heard the sound. She just did not hear the effect of it coming from nearly directly to her right. I am perplexed. All of that album's songs are made with QSound. They all have sounds appearing from all over the place, far beyond the outer edges of your speakers. I just used Vogue as one example of two people hearing things differently. By the way, for The Immaculate Collection, the vinyl has better sound quality than the CDs. But it depends on the pressing. They all have the QSound effect. But some pressings have so-so quality, while others amazing sound quality. The CDs have very good sound quality (not great -- but very good). On both the CDs and the vinyl, the sound quality varies. Vogue, Express Yourself, and Material Girl sound best, to my ears. Somehow, they screwed up "Holiday" on The Immaculate Collection. That song sounds way better on other releases, such as the Celebration Single Disc version. It is one of the great mysteries of all time as to what goes on in the studios.

[@stuartjackson01]

Having listened to the track location you mentioned, and I have never listened to this track before but it sounded like a rapid but brief 'keyboard arpeggio' playing, given prominence in the mixing I guess.

[@NoEgg4u]

@@stuartjackson01 "keyboard arpeggio" Well, that is one I would never have guessed, nor been able to do a web search on. Thanks! And I am guessing that the sound was 100% synthesized. I wonder from where they sampled that sound?

[@mutantryeff]

What influences the choice of Xmax of a speaker when designing a cabinet?

[@stevefisher8323]

Greater xmax of course means the driver can move more air on the highest excursions, and that impacts cabinet volume at minimum.

[@DaW11db]

Hello Paul, i have one peculiar question about power amp/receiver needed for analog output from 130 decibel 32 bit DAC and loud speakers playing up to 100000 hz , can my old(year 2000) receiver from NAD c 320 handle that or do i need some newer amp with 120+ decibel analog input sensitivity and frequency response up to 100000hz?

[@TommasoPaba]

100k? What speakers can reproduce up to 100k? And, even if they could, what would be the benefit given that your ears cannot go higher than 20k (and that's only when you're very young) and the instruments we use to make music are designed to produce frequencies in that range? If our ears could hear up to 100k, we would have developed musical instruments that could generate sounds up to that frequency during history. Maybe we would listen to sine wave generators up to 100k and we would consider that music. Or maybe if dolphins and bats had evolved instead of monkeys, we would need to record and reproduce sounds up to 100k. But that's not the case...

[@connorduke4619]

Perhaps the best audiophile upgrade - even moreso than room treatment - is plastic surgery of our ears!

[@jamesschneider3828]

We are creachers of habit. We listen to one sound and tend to keep watching for that sound and where it comes from.

[@marcusbrsp]

Man, I know English isn't particularly phonetic, but "creachers"? 😁

[@kevinusta7534]

Stone has to be related to that persons reference of pinpoint imaging and staging.

[@michelcouture7026]

Even our brains (internal ADC/DAC)are different

[@lastscatteringsurface9950]

Paul gave up hifi to listen to Burzum instead.

[@googoo-gjoob]

1:36 ........ *_Darren ?!??_*

[@andygrenn680]

Shatki Stone promotes soundstage in my system at least…

[@francois-xaviergonnet7216]

Don't forget... your room is your third speaker ! If your speakers disappear during the listening... it's because of the room. The the room reflections fools your brain in his ability to locate clearly the point source of the sound.

[@marcbegine]

Hence , ACCUPHASE - accurate phase I suppose

[@jedi-mic]

Yeah phasing is an issue I can hear I think a lot of people don't have especially in the mid range and upper frequencies. voicing from the coil is another one that bugs my listening experience hear a lot of

[@markwilson5262]

shape of your ear chanal ?

[@thomass.9167]

Unfortunate thumbnail.

[@Audiorevue]

Yeah, i was thinking the same thing

[@arthurkillen396]

None of the traditional 5 senses are calibrated the same from person to person. For some reason, there's a segment of the audiophile community which doesn't believe this is true for hearing.

[@glenncurry3041]

In researching the actual frequency capabilities of humans, rather than the tuning fork method used in the 1850's. We've just continued to accept the subjectively evaluated steady state tone response spec of 20Hz to 20KHz as if well researched and supported. It's not. One actual modern research from a different direction shows completely different results. "Microsecond temporal resolution in monaural hearing without spectral cues?" (PubMed 2003) "Abstract The auditory system encodes the timing of peaks in basilar-membrane motion with exquisite precision, and perceptual models of binaural processing indicate that the limit of temporal resolution in humans is as little as 10-20 microseconds." IOW the ability of the human auditory system to respond to signals related to over 100Khz!

[@letsgobrandon6545]

I'm old enough to remember how this guy selfishly convinced naïve people to inject themselves Good old times

[@subliminalvibes]

Paul's first point... THE GOLDEN SEAT.. this is what I think happened. Either that or their ears are different shapes.

[@Theupgradeguy]

Yes, Ear shape/size (funneling) and how far your ears project from your head can make a HUGE difference. Just take your fingers and push your ears slightly forward and hear big changes in which frequencies become focused. Even putting your hands up behind your ears will change the 'funneling' of sounds thus changing the soundstage. This is probably the greatest factor in perceived soundstage & quality. Everyone will hear differently.

[@staceymangham]

​@@Theupgradeguyso true what you state, I think even wearing glasses makes a small difference , not the large one you hear pushing your ears forward or cupping your hands around the back of them extending the area that funnels sound into our ears

[@aquacamel]

Yes nice thumbnail ⚡️⚡️🙋‍♂️

[@fereracarera]

🤩

[@richardkinkel6513]

If sound staging is that important to you, I suggest get a set of headphones. You'll save a lot of time and money.

[@DrMasonStorm]

In the thumbnail for this video, once again we see Paul accepting the salute of the party faithful. 😂

[@clovergrass9439]

\o

[@babubabu12345]

Nice

[@presence16]

Asuming none of them wear glases. The talk about differences in the ear is one thing But it is an illusion created by ouer brain, and ouer brain differ greatly. Its an conseqence of all inputt so far in life They are not alike

[@funny0000000]

First!

[@declin_ro3823]

u were second

[@matthewwray749]

@@declin_ro3823😂

[@funny0000000]

@@declin_ro3823 No I wasn't! Sort my newest first and you will see I am the oldest comment.

[@bayard1332]

Clean your ears.

[@faludabutt8253]

I don’t experience soundstage in my system. Things would be easy if system is 3.1. Vocals come from centre speaker, some instruments play from right, some from left. Crescendo from all the speakers. For mono, just use a single speaker in the centre, which I intend to try one day soon.