How Permanent Are The Clues In Forrest Fenn's Treasure Hunt?

[@bsim2395]

Possibilities: What if a clue refers to water flow from underground spring in the mountains, other than from snow melt. Has been flowing for centuries, but flow could change. What if a mountain side rock overhang is part of a clue and it collapses. Also, not that it matters, why did he use year 3009, hint to 1000 years since he hid it. Very thought provoking videos!

[@smellthesunshine4425]

That's the "bad math" I was referring to. Seems deliberate, like saying A Farewell to Arms is about WWI. As far as water flow, you may be right. Better not speak definitively about exactly what things are going to be like 1,000 years from now--even if all your clues point to "permanent" things in nature.

[@glcanon]

@@smellthesunshine4425 Right, because rock slides happen all the time. One side of this mountain is rotten, eroding away because of all the geothermal activity there. Could collapse in a 1,000 years, might collapse in a hundred. Who can predict, remember the Oso landslide of 2014?

[@dac6332]

Another great video Matt. I think Forrest knew that one clue in the poem could change over time and this is the blaze! Possibly humans could constantly repair or replace this blaze as it’s needed for safety purposes

[@clancylittleboy7408]

For those who must have the answers, here is the one-picture solution: www.dropbox.com/s/gouz0p4o8xno0gi/Using-Poem-as-Map.pdf?dl=0 First you had to find the “right” triangle as shown on the front cover of Too Far to Walk. This was found by drawing lines on Google Maps between the 4 map points given in the poem: Waters Canyon, CO; Marvel, CO; Angel Fire, NM (blaze#1), and Casa Marron, NM (home of Brown). These 4 points were hidden in plain sight in the poem by using a different method to hide each one: Casa Marron, Santa Fe, NM was hidden by using English words (home of Brown) for a Spanish name. Waters Canyon, CO was hidden by putting it on two lines, and you had to draw in diagonal lines of magnetic declination for New Mexico at 10 and 9 degrees in order to read "there bold, where, and Waters Canyon." Marvel, CO was hidden by using marvel as a verb form, "but starry cant, with Marvel, gaze." Angel Fire, NM was hidden by using the word "blaze" to mean Angel Fire. This was shaky at first until you gazed with Marvel at an upward angle toward Waters Canyon, then turned 180 degrees and gazed with Marvel at an upward angle toward Angel Fire, and realized that all 3 points are on the same hypotenuse line of the "right" triangle!! How neat is that? Blaze was also the pointer at the end of a line that pointed to the exact spot of the treasure location. Blaze was the word that was key. Second, you cut out the poem and placed it as directed in Stanza 2 of the poem, with top right corner placed (“Begin it) on the CO/NM border, and the poem body then turned south toward the Rio Grande Canyon (“canyon down”), then the lower left corner of the poem put in below Casa Marron. The blaze#2 in the poem then points to coordinates 36.6355, -106.2105 The chest was in New Mexico in the Carson National Forest. Two of the important clues are in Colorado, one clue location is on the CO/NM border, and three clues are in New Mexico. The remaining 3 clues are not really needed but serve as fillers and padding to make the poem the right length. It was important to keep the poem the same size and shape as the original, so the poem could be used as a map. The clue locations ON LAND in the real world are not close together, are not consecutive, not contiguous, and not chronological. You really did not have to find where warm waters halt first. (Waters because Waters Canyon was named after Mrs. Waters who lived there in the early days). That turned out to be misleading, because if you started with home of Brown, you could use the poem-as-map and the edge of the right triangle to reverse-engineer and determine where warm waters halted. The blaze#3 was not visible with Google Maps until 2016, when the resolution increased enough to see it. You can still see it (blaze#3) at: 36.6355, -106.2105. - - - -

[@IllinoisGhost]

IMO, if searchers haven’t been finding then they haven’t been searching right. Nice video

[@honey87west]

I was really pleased with myself (probably too much, given how many other people had the same idea) when I decided that the treasure must be in a forrest. I think that was confirmed by Jack. I'm guessing Forrest may not have known if the trees in that forrest/wood existed when he was born so even though they aren't man made, the "secret where" did not exist when he was a child. Or more specifically, the tree whose roots made the nook he placed the TC in probably wasn't planted until after he was born. FF probably knew that for sure, given he was 79/80 when he left it and the tree would most likely be younger.

[@TheCzar7007]

If Forrest trough his body on the chest with his last breath. Eventuality the chest would be in a “Forrest” Not sure what this means? “and the tree would most likely be younger.”

[@clancylittleboy7408]

Now that Forrest has passed on, his "special place in the mountains north of Santa Fe" should be revealed. If you look at the Vallecitos Mountain Retreat website at: www.vallecitos.org/ ,and look at the photos (select Why Vallecitos, then Photo Gallery), you will see some hints that were mentioned by Forrest, such as: some cast bronze bells similar to those Forrest made and hid, a photo of the Vallecitos Rio, the "water high" in the poem, and "the poem leads to the end of my rainbow" (see photo of a large rainbow ending near where the treasure was hidden, as Forrest wrote on the inner jacket flap of The Thrill of the Chase). Using Google Maps, look at the area south of the Vallecitos ranch house where you will find a large rock wheel, as in "Try the wheel." www.dropbox.com/s/yw1sdttynrfxcnf/2%20Vallecitos%20Mountain%20Retreat-%20Try%20the%20Wheel.jpg?dl=0 - - - - The Google Maps coordinates for the Blaze (large painted black "nn" (for Fenn) on the top of a big white boulder) are : 36.6355, -106.2105 Here is the simplest solution that DOES "use the Poem as a Map": www.dropbox.com/home/Public?preview=Forrest+Fenn+Poem+Solution.pdf Forrest wanted to control who found the chest, and when he saw it was not to his liking, he had it moved to Wyoming just before the died, so that his "special place" would never be defiled. - - - - - - - -

[@justinposey7059]

Consider the potential for conflating “geography” and “geology” and how that may change the interpretation of Forrest’s reply. ~Justin

[@rowdyyates7247]

This is what I've always thought. I'm guessing the geology will change little in 1000 years, but the geography could change enough that vintage maps from our time will be required.

[@jemelcorpin2633]

FfrCFFr

[@EricThompsonClimber]

Forrest already answered your question. He said mud slides, floods or forrest fires could alter the landscape. Bronze melts at 1744 F a forrest fire can burn hotter than 2100 F so the chest could be a puddle of metal covered in ash already as far as anyone but FF knows.

[@smellthesunshine4425]

Answering the question I deal with here, Forrest doesn't refer to mudslides, floods, or fires (severe weather events); he cites geologic change, which is a completely different category. I deal with this starting at the 14:42 mark. Thanks.

[@mikenodine6713]

@@smellthesunshine4425 You might want to read and index this article where Forrest in fact referenced those exact things in 2015: www.earthmagazine.org/article/trail-treasure-rocky-mountains

[@shankopotomuss]

have you ever seen the red slash's on yellowstone cutthroat? if I was wise and caught a yellowstone cutthroat it might be a clue. those blazes might last a long time.

[@justinfields6408]

Perhaps the most interesting (and possibly useful) element of FF’s response is his hypothetical search year of 3009. As he is responding to a question in 2016 about searching 1,000 years in the future, why wouldn’t he use 3016 for his hypothetical? Is he confirming here that he did in fact hide the chest in 2009? Great video.

[@smellthesunshine4425]

Justin Fields Yeah, that’s the “bad math” I mention. Seems deliberate. But I think people have analyzed all the statements from the various witnesses of the tc and narrowed down the “hide date” to summer 2010. Also, if he’s been purposely vague about the date, why provide it now? Seems more like a red herring.

[@justinfields6408]

@@smellthesunshine4425 Yes, bad math. And the inclusion of the comma in the 3009 didn’t help! Agreed, seems deliberate. As to why, only FF knows. Ultimately, I don’t think the exact date he hid the treasure is even relevant. One more thought (for the brown trout enthusiasts): I recall FF mentioning that some of his old fishing spots no longer exist because the paths of those particular waters have changed course over the years. With this in mind, for those who believe the Home of Brown is a river where brown trout reside, it’s possible that the HoB river either 1) did not contain brown trout or 2) was not in its current location when FF was a boy. One could use this theory to explain FF’s statement that “most” (and not all) of the places existed when he was a kid.

[@wrongwaycorrigan2492]

Justin Fields if that’s the case what’s to say the place would continue to house brown trout long term?

[@justinfields6408]

@@wrongwaycorrigan2492 Good question, and one that I admittedly haven't given THAT much thought, as I don't think the HoB has anything to do with fish. :)

[@glcanon]

@@smellthesunshine4425 Good catch by Justin Fields! It struck me that it wasn't that far off from my alt target, if read backwards. Maybe F was giving us the precise alt of the chest, 9,003 ft. My rainbow was at 9,200 ft, but that was the falls official altitude, so maybe the chest was at 9,003 ft just 50 or 100 feet away from the vale of tears, under that natural stone banco, F's father waiting there for him. Works for my solve.

[@sparkysparks8898]

Everyone including myself looking at a map trying to COINCIDENTALLY put the solve together but if Google the roads (mostly in spanish)and translate to English, FORREST GALLERY was on the corner of PASEO DE PURALTA ROAD AND ACEQUIA MADRE RD, PASEO DE PURALTA means walk on the high rocks,and ACEQUIA MADRE, means the MOTHER DITCH, and the Spanish built this canal system in NEW MEXICO, the ACEQUIA MADRE runs down UPPER CANYON RD to CANYON RD, past HOB and continues to FORREST FENN GALLERIES,dont believe me get amap start poem, it will take you back where you STARTED from, FORREST was right there is one person who knows lol

[@catfishnet]

Each clue has a weight of around 1750lbs and was not manufactured until the late 50s to mid 60s. With the power to change any geological area, especially unstable ones.

[@joellopezaguilarlopez3888]

I found the key house of brown not is a house is lake. On the poem is 4 clue to found the correct location.

[@drtuddle]

Good questions

[@MrBladeZero]

““No need to dig up the old outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure,” Forrest Fenn on the Today show on March 27, 2013. In other words, the HoB cannot be a house.

[@smellthesunshine4425]

Reynaldo Vazquez I’m glad you brought this up. People weren’t digging to find the HoB; they were digging to find the treasure. FF says the treasure is not associated with structures. Obviously this raises the question whether we apply it to the whole poem. That’s a valid interpretation, but it may not be true. You might check out “So Many Words” from Odious Soul. A prominent searcher thought FF said to her what you’re suggesting. Shannon asked him, and FF pushed back a little. When asked directly whether we apply the “no structures” principle to the entire poem, he politely refused to answer.

[@senorchivo7361]

@@smellthesunshine4425 you people never listen or pay attention.

[@mikenodine6713]

@@senorchivo7361 Who are these "you people" you are referring to?

[@senorchivo7361]

@@mikenodine6713 people searching for this treasure

[@mikenodine6713]

@@senorchivo7361 And you aren't a searcher yourself?

[@joellopezaguilarlopez3888]

In july 13. I put the pictures of the location . on you tube. ( free jack) forrest fenn.

[@zapster326]

I have to disagree with the assumption that at least one of places the clues refer to did not exist when Forrest was a kid. If we are to apply logic to the problem (as Forrest enjoys emphasizing), the word "most" has a formal definition. And as when Forrest asked a questioner what the word "several" means, popular wisdom is not always accurate. "Most" includes the possibility of "all," just as the word "some" can also mean all. That is not to say that all the places the clues refer to DID exist when Forrest was a kid -- one or more may not have. But Forrest hasn't really excluded the possibility that they all did.

[@zapster326]

Sorry -- I should have listened 20 seconds longer before pausing the video -- you DID consider that angle. :-)

[@smellthesunshine4425]

@@zapster326 I love it when a problem resolves itself :) Thanks for stopping by.

[@casst346]

i think he might have created "the blaze", so that did not exist when he was a kid.

[@TheDalby001]

No one is thinking about this the right way. There is another possibility.

[@mariomarturano6720]

Does that include you? Until the chest is claimed we are all wrong, in my opinion

[@wrongwaycorrigan2492]

No one has the treasure so I agree. What’s your take for other possibilities?

[@TheDalby001]

The possibility that one or more places used as clues were already gone when he was a kid. The first example that jumps into my east coast mind is New Hampshire's man on the mountain. Some future Forrest Fenn growing up now could use that as a clue in a poem and honestly make the statement that it didn't exist when he was a kid.

[@rahrahonamission7062]

@@TheDalby001 good catch

[@michaeloconnell8779]

Great job...

[@cherisilverfox3430]

He said he was never really interested in school so quit grammar bashing him, and Yellowstone is a super volcano. If it goes off, we all die.

[@smellthesunshine4425]

Perhaps you misunderstood. I didn't say Forrest used improper grammar because he's ignorant or uneducated. He's actually adept with the English language, and a great speller too. I was saying he might be deliberately flagging an answer, or injecting an answer with falsehoods for some reason.

[@cherisilverfox3430]

Smell the Sunshine ok, so now I have to look at it like a code breaker.

[@bitchn_betty]

You seem to be using geography and geology inter-changebly. This is not the case.... comparing apples and oranges so to speak.

[@smellthesunshine4425]

Forrest said the geography would change in 100 years, but then he spoke of mountains moving. What does "mountains moving" refer to?

[@glcanon]

@@smellthesunshine4425 Rockslides. People died nearby in the last decade. If I told you where HOB was, you'd pull it up on Google Earth and as smart as you are, probably figure out the whole poem within 15 min, especially since I note 'history' is one your things. That is the key, my friend. I'm curious, Sunshine, when did you first hear of The Chase?

[@jeremydoggett5005]

There is one clue that wasn't around when Forrest was a kid. It is a Wilderness Study Area. The government has talked about taking it out of the program a few times but never does. The rest of the clues won't change anytime soon and will probably remain the same for as long as time has to go. As for Forrest mentioning 100 years and millenia, they were hints for the spot. Forrest presented various stories in involving math problems. At the spot which was marked very precisely, he used those numbers as hints. One one side is 76 and the other side is 42. 76+24=100. You may recall that Forrest talked about his 109 rules more than a few times. 76+42=109. The 76 was why he had a few stories about George Washington and Battle of the Little Bighorn. The 7 was for his 7% of U.S. citizens are certifiably crazy. The 7+6=13 was why his mind stayed at thirteen. There was also a (2) on the 76 side so when you added 7+6+2= 15 you then understood why he said he took 15 years to write the poem, there are only so many 15's, and why he told is that non-fiction writers of have to be right 85% of the time. For the millenia remark it was for the 669+255+ that were on the bronze benchmark and you added those to 76 for the 1,000. The more serious searchers will recall the Playboy interview when F said he would have put a Porsche in the chest of he wasn't limited on cubic inches. 669+255=924 Forrest used all that the spot offered to provide hints in his stories.

[@meh937]

You are being too tough on Forrest, I think. He wrote an email answer to a question, not a dissertation to be defended. I very well could see myself using the term ‘geologic change’ to refer to the effects of erosion, displacements due to earthquakes, and so on... and I think that most people would accept that.

[@smellthesunshine4425]

MEH I agree. I say exactly that in the video. However, I wonder if it correlates to places in the memoir where FF deliberately dropped in errors.

[@mariomarturano6720]

Good vid thanks. Dramatic answers, phew. Ok simplify this... To my limited knowledge, there are passages, or words from the books in SBs!!! If the Blaze is part of a mountain and it moves... some trees live a very long time do they not? In my opinion.

[@JensEser]

Knowing what we know today, your analysis is (still) outstanding. - Chapeau Matt!

[@dennisschultz9180]

I little help from the solver of the poem........The Big Hollow is WWWH only the spot becomes smaller within the Big Hollow a periglacil wedge.There are three WWWH and each falls on a periglacil wedge.The stories about pie was the hints for the wedges.The word knowledge was the key Forrest left out the letter D and then prayed for Ds.He tried to get the reader to the university of WY where he got the knowledge of the past award.They have a dairy teaching school next to WWWH.Using the Bessie story and Stout Hearted Men ending with cows all around him Forrest tied the stories together.Using Teacher With Ropes he showed the reader you DO NOT TOUCH WWWH.This a little of what it took to solve Forrest Fenn's poem.

[@stevenwaterfielkd6952]

I believe Forrest wanted fame. His self published book was not selling and he needed a interview from a major network to help put him in the spot light. He was willing to pay with his riches by putting a treasure in the wild for someone to find. He had plenty of money so this act was for his own benefit. I really don't think he wanted the treasure to be found and probably wouldn't have been if he hadn't of helped the guy who did find it. It appears that Jack Stuef and Forrest had met on several occasions before this miraculous find. I think Forrest knew his time was near so he decided to let Stuef be the one to find the treasure.

[@jackrabbitjack5926]

Again, another good video! However, the 1000 years was a hint on google earth that you were in the correct canyon. Pic is to the left. Also, the bells are a hints.....

[@larrylegends7284]

The reason not all the clues existed when Forrest was a kid is because the kid wasn't born yet...

[@kenrobinson3160]

Check Google earth or similar to see all the features mentioned in my solve....cheers ken

[@treasuresgalore7750]

Good video bud

[@kenrobinson3160]

I can't believe that nobody hasn't seen the obvious...there is only one place you could mark a blaze and hide a treasure chest...it is in a place that has already been around for thousands of years...it is in the 'wood' but the wood isn't wood it is stone....ie petrified wood....it is in a fossil forest. There is a small fossil forest in the Lamar valley.... near to ranger browns home...the Lamar river is supposed to be one of the best for trout fishing, yet he never mentions it in his books (stearing us away from the solve?). Lamar is river of gold in Arabic....all the creeks in this area all have names of precious stones...eg amethyst, chalcedony, rose....hints of riches ?...no place for the meek....'petrified' forest. Most such forests are in square miles....impossible to narrow down a search area....this one is reached via a dried up creek bed which funnels you to the area which is a cul-de-sac where the fossil forest of about 100 sq m is. Above this is a plateau with 2 standing water ponds (water high). If you walk along this plateau you would be about 200 m near the chest. If you walked past the dried up creek in the valley below you would be about 500 m from the chest. The forest is about 2 miles from Browns home. Two trips easily manageable for a guy of 70. The blaze is a marker put into a fossilized tree, below it the chest is covered by small fossilized tree logs. The elements will get to it...rain, snow...but fire wouldn't be able to burn it like ordinary trees....in one of his books he shows a picture of a typewriter with the name ...UNDERWOOD ...in big letters....ff having a joke? The chest isn't buried it's under wood, but its petrified. Forest also once told us to 'kick over a log and see what you find.....' again, he makes you think of wood....I think he was talking about a petrified log......I could go on with many more reasons to justify my solve but it's too late now. I was planning a 4 day trip to Yellowstone when the Covid 19 crisis hit.......I really hope my solve is completely wrong....stay safe and well....Ken

[@kenrobinson3160]

I forgot to say in my previous post....check Google earth to see all the features mentioned in my solve....cheers

[@Huli007X]

Love the angels singing during the self imposed questions! Deep thoughts with Sushine, I REALLY like your articulation of Chase ideas 😉

[@JDO424]

You’re a skank

[@glcanon]

Love your vids. I think Justin below had it right, people get geology & geography mixed up. What if Heavy Loads referred to those 'loads' hanging over you while you're in the canyon? They're always falling, aren't they. Everywhere I look in the mountains, it's like I'm a geologist, and this Chase inspired me to pick up historical/geological books whatever local region I happened to find myself in. All the rubble at that spot there --> happened in the last 50 years. Over there, that happened much more recently. There, that was millennia ago. See? You can tell by the color of the rock often times. You don't think that entropy ever entered Fenn's mind? That's what I see as i walk around the mountains & inside canyons. Guess I'm a nerd. I wrote an article on "Entropy" in 2018 and AGK wanted to post it on their website, but I held back. Fenn had to hv been thinking of this before & as he placed his chest. Are you going to hide it somewhere there's bound to be a collapse in the next 20 or so years? Or where there's lots of standing dead wood waiting to topple over, or already tons of trees covering the forest carpet? Nope. I can look at some areas and I know there's going to be a collapse at any time. If it's where I think it was, there was a collapse nearby in this past decade and people were killed. There's also bear paw prints, scat, and claw marks on trees, so I tend to think there must be bear there. No place for the meek.

[@TheCzar7007]

Matt, I wish I would have discovered your videos earlier in the game. You're straightforward without bias. That's a breath of fresh air. Maybe the "Chest" was the blaze. Just a thought 🙂

[@wrongwaycorrigan2492]

I’ve always thought the his explanation meant places existed but names may have changed or weren’t on a map and are now. I’m also in the mind set that permanence is likely for all the clues to some extent.

[@fibonacii]

Forrest created the clues. Meaning that the clues did not exist until he thought them up and wrote them in his book.

[@TheCzar7007]

Matt, What exactly is your part in all this?

[@JDO424]

Matt and Cynthia Meachum retrieved the treasure chest for Forrest Fenn.

[@TheCzar7007]

@El Gato is that a guess? If true, how do you know that?

[@joellopezaguilarlopez3888]

I break the poem. Location blaze.

[@richardbertram4232]

15:45 bad math etc. learning carve, teachers with rope etc. your saying the stuff two different ways can you please add to what you think your way of thinking is to explain why you are muddy up the waters with a lot of junk?

[@richardbertram4232]

I think that came out wrong. I too look at the stuff different ways to see if it is a change or a turning point? what is your thoughts and why two different ways at the same point?

[@smellthesunshine4425]

Probably the best solution is for you to provide a link to your content where you clear all this up. Thanks.

[@richardbertram4232]

@@smellthesunshine4425 well unfortunately this content is a theory mainly your. and it's hard to follow if your going back and forth on what your saying without giving us which way your going and if it is a turning point in the poem or book and your trying to say it can be left right, up down or strait at point is way of looking at it is adding muddy waters. your looking at the same point different ways. i look at it as FF wonts the finder to walk in his footsteps to the treasure. you mite say i look at every step this way to find the next step and to make sheer i'm in the footstep of FF. if you ziged and ff zaged your not in the same step?

[@richardbertram4232]

@@smellthesunshine4425 i just giving you what i think well help your videos some people can't figure this stuff out with out a sign "this way" on some contents? and if you get to much this way and that way on the same points. people are looking at our theory because FF is intrigued with you. which in my book says you got to be onto something. don't blow it with out saying why.

[@Wade-ub4cj]

As the earth spins there is a precessional change of true north. The Earth’s North Pole will not point in the same direction in 1,000 years. Given this, if the blaze is the sun reflecting or shining through a rock structure to a spot.... the spot will change. Geologic maybe?