How the 8 Ball Spindle Works

This video shows the mechanics of the 8-Ball spindle with the addition of the new fly-weight locking mechanism. The fly-weights are designed to push four pins into a locking position against the inserted tool-holder at speeds above 1000 RPM. When the spindle is idle the pins will disengage and allow the tool-holder to be pulled from the spindle. In the future this design will be incorporated into another spindle adaption for small machines that utilize R-8 tooling. Since this operates without air driven pneumatics it will not require any changes to the machine whatsoever.

[@bullseye9899]

Awesome design! Can't wait until you go into production.

[@curvs4me]

That's one brilliant upgrade!

[@artisandice]

i must have 3 of these atc setups. we run 3 taigs in production for our dice. and this ATC is exactly what i've been looking for. always cool to see another texas based machinist.

[@christophersmith2852]

Thanks for the compliment! Still trying to get it going

[@martinlightheart2051]

Hi Chris, really nice design. I subscribed to keep tabs on your progress.

Love it ! Subscribed with notifications enabled waiting for release...

[@peterdahlman]

Really nice work 👍👍

[@docdinthedungeon559]

Great job, definitely interested when you bring this to market.

[@christophersmith2852]

Thanks Steve, you will be informed

[@kentvandervelden]

Very clever engineering here!

[@christophersmith2852]

Thank you Kent

[@hi1172]

awesome can't wait

[@powermate]

Great job. Hope you start selling soon

[@alejandrogarciafernandez7707]

Hello, I have been a fan of CNC machines for a long time, I have 2 working in my workshop built by me, a router and a plasma. One of the things I want to add to the router is an ATC and the one you have designed seems fantastic to me. I wanted to know if I would share some kind of documentation to see if I could build it myself, plans with measurements, a tutorial ..... it would be exclusively for personal use. If it were not possible I will be waiting for you to put it on sale to see if I can get it. Greetings.

[@tasoskarapanagiotis1159]

hello Christopher what is the progress of your 8 ball atc i need 1 of this one more question what ER collet you use for this atc thanks

[@furbyZH]

Hello, it is very nice! Can I buy it somewhere please?

[@michaellockwood7995]

Hi Chris , very clear discription of design , great needed to understand how you designed this? Been building router cnc machines for my own use. Would be interested in knowing when you will be production of these. Interested in purchasing one .live in the UK. Always want act . Mike

[@christophersmith2852]

Mike, sorry for being so late. Your comment did not light up my "Bell". I am still waiting for the first spindle/ holder set to come back to me from the shop. This will most likely be a kickstarter. Hopefully we will see something soon.

[@pancake_crab4457]

This is so cool! But it's been 4 years. Did the project fall through?

[@xillianto]

Did this one ever come to life ? What about an high rpm model ? Like 18000 ? Or even 15000

[@logicalapprentice.4874]

Now that is some slick work. Reminds me of a cvt clutch with fly weights. Where or how did you end on this concept?

[@christophersmith2852]

The solution had to be simple and mechanical without the use of complicated and expensive pneumatic actuators. The design itself is far from being complex....the difficulty was drilling the four holes that were required for the flyweight pins. I had to build some custom drill bit extensions to be able to drill the holes that close to the shaft. It seemed that my time was mostly spent in designing fixtures and tools more than part production. Without my CAD experience it would have never been possible.

[@LocNguyen-tm8ey]

flyweight pins look similar to padlock. Your pins have groove push down another pin to engage tool holder? I try to figure out this part. it's confused me. last pictures. www.explainthatstuff.com/yalelock.html

[@tat2joeelliott]

has there been anything been done with this? I would like to purchase one

[@johnatonince7679]

do they make these spindles in R8 shank????

[@RCGrid]

A centrifugal clutch! Looks like a setup from a nitro powered RC car

[@christophersmith2852]

Actually the clutch is the pins on the bottom that locks the toolholder in place and keeps it from rotating in the spindle. The flyweights lock the toolholder in place after ~1000RPM so that it remains rigid in the spindle during the cut. But yes, very similar to a centrifugal clutch.

[@RCGrid]

+Christopher Smith Oh I see now, what a unique design

[@johnpaullus6649]

Just found this: Way awesome!!!!!! How is the project coming along? Do you have it on kick-starter or similar?

[@christophersmith2852]

getting there, takes quite a bit of time and money to start. Subscribe to get updates

[@jrs7314159]

Wow, love your design. I am looking into purchasing a Taig mill with servo motors and a 4th axis. Would this setup require a 5 axis controller? Do you have any recommendations for the right one?

[@christophersmith2852]

The rotary tool changer requires a fourth axis. I would recommend a fifth axis if you want to use an additional rotary axis (at some point you will want one) . The stationary tool plate does not require a fourth axis and, even though it only holds three tools, can be made to hold as many tools as you want by modifying the tool-change macro. By adding additional tools to the script and assigning those tool positions to the existing pocket locations you can have as many tools as Mach3 allows. Might be a bit confusing without a video, but, consider a part that requires six tools to complete.....T1= pocket 1 / T2= pocket 2 / T3= pocket 3, then assign T4= pocket 1 / T5= pocket 2 / T6= pocket 3 ....six tools for only three pockets? Sure! The difference is in the programming order by using the first three machining processes that are only run once, placing a M00 at the end of the third toolpath, replace the tools with the next set of tools (all tools lengths would have already been placed in the registry of course) and continue with the program. One of these days i'll record a video on this very idea. There are several sellers out there that sell Taig mills that are fully functional straight from the box. If you are purchasing a cnc "ready" machine without the electronics and you have a little coin in your pocket I would suggest that you look at kzbin.info/door/R9OFVqdul6hJDfCifG36cQ (corvetteguy50) to see what he can do for you. This guy takes immense pride in his work. I was fully impressed.

[@krisinman9819]

Since you have to make a whole new spindle have you considered changing the dovetail mount? IMO the dovetail mount for the spindle is the weakest link for the Taig and having something stiffer and easier to tram would be amazing.

[@christophersmith2852]

What is your suggestion? The dovetail setup would be the easiest way to connect to the block

[@EldonJohansen]

Christopher Smith run the bolt through to the other side of the dovetail on the spindle extrusion.

[@christophersmith2852]

I don't think anyone can see the mount clearly in this video. The spindle housing (not extrusion) has two hex thumbscrews ( www.mcmaster.com/#90732a380/=18yg480 ) that are accessible from the top and bottom of the housing which operates similar to a quick-changer toolpost on a manual lathe **except that you tighten the screws with a wrench**. I see no reason to change it

[@woolerba]

is this design available to be purchased?

[@IcanCwhatUsay]

Are you selling these any where?

[@mastermoarman]

Any update in this?

[@stevemcneal6925]

I am building my own CNC from scratch rather than making a larger copy of my existing 2 x 2 CNC Machine. I am sure what I am doing will be a little over the top and/or different but the fun is building it. Do you have a kickstarter or any other way to buy one of your 8-Ball ATC's. I want one for my machine, not because I expect to do a lot of tool changes but because it is unique like some of the other parts of my new CNC.

[@christophersmith2852]

You would be surprised at how much more you would do when you finally do have a tool changer and not have to bother with interrupting a program to change tools. I work full-time as a machining instructor in a college in Wichita Falls, Texas so I have to work around my work schedule which is sometimes difficult to do. All I can say is that when it is ready it is ready. I plan to contact those who have shown interest, and instead of starting a kick-starter, tailor to the actual needs of the client so that there are no limitations and time restraints. The tool holders have already been brought to production but the spindle has not. The rest of the project is mostly made from flat stock, easily machined with no close tolerance worries. Just be patient with me as this is no easy project to initiate from scratch. Chris

[@samclarke161]

Very nice. Any problem with wear, or did you heat treat? I was thinking of using/making a similar design but between no surface grinder at home (i know i am ashamed lol) and fear the locating pins warping or breaking i caved. I Mean 1hp is a lot more than what most think it is and at 7500rpm the inertia is astoundingly high., even at 2000 rpms. But i see a lot of good engineering and programming went into this, very cool.

[@christophersmith2852]

There has been several who want their spindles operating 30k rpm+. The only valid reason is to be able to run micromills with decent feeds, other than that, 7500 -10,000 does just fine. The tool holders will be made from 7075 Aluminum (Brinell 150 hardness) while the spindle will be made from 410 Stainless Steel (Rockwell 80) Both hardness ratings rate nearly the same. I'm not going to heat treat either one. i don't see the need for hobby applications. Besides, I'm trying to offer an affordable alternative. No noticeable wear so far from the toolholders.

[@yurif74]

interested, following

[@io3204]

Only the 8 balls and springs apply axial force via the taper and clamp the toolholder. But that force decreases with spindle speed. The locking pins engage when the tool is already loosened and they don't apply axial clamping pressure. This way the flyweight system is a somewhat complicated band-aid for a fundamental design problem. Maybe the flyweights can be arranged to also apply axial pressure or better the balls and springs could be arranged to increase clamping force with spindle speed and the second (flyweight) system can be omitted.

[@christophersmith2852]

Nope, no problem with the design....thanks anyway. Ball pressure maintains just fine at maximum speeds and the flyweights actually increase holding force with higher speeds.

[@io3204]

Christopher Smith Why is the flyweight system necessary when the ball pressure is fine and how are the balls and springs not influenced by centrifugal force?

[@christophersmith2852]

I can take heavy cuts all day with straight router bits with no problem, but if I choose to take heavy outside cuts on aluminum the helical nature of the end mill has a tendency to tug and pull on the the tool so that it chatters a little. It never actually pulls the tool out though. The pins used with the flyweights are tapered and increase holding pressure as the speed increases. After the addition of the flyweights I had no problem taking heavy cuts. The balls are still necessary as they draw the tool into position initially before the flyweights engage. They also "snap" the tool holder upwards about .100 to lift it above the tool plate recess.

[@christophersmith2852]

The balls are also nylon being held in with 10lb springs. They run around .375 from centerline when seated. At only 10,000 rpm there is no chance of these balls to counter the pressure of the spring holding it in place.

[@io3204]

Christopher Smith Thank you for explaining and of course for showing it in the first place. Best wishes

[@tjtalma]

Will this work with a cnc for wood (RPM's up to 32,000 rpm) If so Let me know when they are ready!

[@christophersmith2852]

RPM's will be limited to 10,000 RPM because of the bearing limitations. I run woodworking projects all the time at 7500 RPM on my HAAS mill without any problems at all (and no burning as the result of low feeds with high RPMS), so even though routers turn up to 32,000 doesn't mean they are required to turn that fast to give good finishing results. This spindle is designed to use an average 1-1.5 HP trim router turning 30,000 RPM with reduction pulleys that bring the maximum RPM to near 10K. This will greatly increase the output torque of any trim router and give you the option of using any tool with a shank diameter up to 3/8 including any drills up to 3/8 as well. (because the spindle is using ER16 tapered collets) This system is expected to come out in early Summer.

[@frogman708]

How about an Internal clamping mechanism (like HSK). In this way the clamping force will increase with spindle speed, even without the flyweights.

[@christophersmith2852]

Looked at some pictures but they were not large enough to see the internal workings. Do you have anything (site or drawing) where I can see it up close? If it requires a draw bar I wouldn't be interested, trying to make this as simple as possible.

[@Frankmali17]

Hey... I wonder if you would recommend this kind of setup for a 4x8 cnc router... I want to add atc. How is this comming along?

[@christophersmith2852]

Frank, since this requires no additional mechanical or pneumatic changes to your existing machine it would work fine. The only requirements are that you must have homing switches on all three XYZ axis and that you are either running Mach3 (so that you can use my screenset and macros) or you know a thing or two about creating macros for your own control software. The CON's of this ATC is that you will have limited RPM's (no greater than 1000rpms) because of bearing limitations and mechanical balance. I have not marketed is as of yet but am trying hard to get a bare-bones system out by the Fall (no guarantees ) Please visit my Facebook page to see the 9-tool ATC router that I am building with a 25" x 40" machining footprint. The same spindle will be used on this machine (slight changes in design to allow for the flyweight cover to be removed from the bottom instead of the top for easier maintenance ) Please subscribe to receive all updates....and friend me on facebook to see all new updates. facebook.com/vernoncollege.machininglab

[@christophersmith2852]

I forgot to mention that this spindle can be used as a quick-change spindle just by changing tools manually with this tool. This is a very good alternative for those who are new to GM code and are reluctant to programming tool changes kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJuxnnqVhsZ_pNk

[@user-yz4cd4mq5y]

Hello, you could build another ATC for someone else and if so how much would it cost.

[@christophersmith2852]

this will eventually be marketed, subscribe for updates

[@timothysvec8568]

Do you have a website... I would like to buy! :-)

[@christophersmith2852]

Working on it. Please subscribe for updates

[@cjcu4047]

I just tripped over my wallet looking for the purchase now button!! What kind of time frame until market?

[@christophersmith2852]

Working on it. Please subscribe for updates

[@deanwhite6741]

Is this project active?

[@Migueldeservantes]

I have been wanting to do something like that with my BT30... but never could figure it out in my head how the auto locking system was going to work... I will probably use large diameter roller bearings "Atlas Lathe Style" because i want to have a really beefy setup.. "Really want my CNC machine to be able to use a automatic tool changer..

[@christophersmith2852]

I'ts coming.....here is an example of an R8 version of the spindle. Since there are no adjustments to the machine (air actuators for pull studs or any other mechanical adjustments) you just place the new spindle in your machine and go! (of course, this will require limit switches on all three axis and a new screenset and macros for mach3) www.dropbox.com/s/3ekp015aj1sur9x/r8.PNG?dl=0

[@Migueldeservantes]

the spindle looks like a R8... really nice and creative work..

[@reservarhotel9948]

can i use this concept? or is registered?

[@christophersmith2852]

You can always use the concept. It is registered and cannot be duplicated except for personal use

[@nazigermany1945]

Where can I buy it

[@christophersmith2852]

Not available yet. Still been too busy to manufacture

[@gtmwatches8056]

Hi how do i get one of these?

[@christophersmith2852]

I will keep you informed. Many parts to complete and a bit costly to initiate production

[@Paulctan]

Please let me know when you can sell me a set of these! Very good work!

[@christophersmith2852]

Will do, thanks

[@AliHureiby]

where's you buy it? how much it cost? thanks

[@christophersmith2852]

Two spindles are being manufactured at present along with 12 toolholders to be mounted on a Taig CNC mill and a CNC Router that will be made available as well. After these products are produced I will be able to report to you the cost. It will probably have to be funded through Kickstarter, as it will cost more than I can invest in at this time. It is vitally important that those interested subscribe to this channel so that I can justify this venture. I have also designed a lathe turret that holds four OD and four ID tools. While the mill parts are in production I will be building the turret as soon as the raw materials arrive. The turret will mount directly to the Taig Z-axis block. The original Taig motor and spindle can then be mounted to the table to serve as the spindle. The ATC macro is already finished and working. I will post a video when it is finished. Chris

[@AliHureiby]

@Christopher Smith : wow, that was awesome, you have good work out there, wish you luck, i google and look at ebay for this ATC before, hahaha what about that big spindle and headstock? do you made it too? that look rigid and steady, perfect for my taig mill. i have a lot of taig product, plan to make video of it and put on youtube. thanks

[@mortcs]

It took me a while to figure out why you were building this complicated tool holder system. You are trying to avoid adding a pneumatic or hydraulic collet puller on top of your spindle head. It might be a good idea to make that more obvious at the beginning of the the video and video description. Maybe add some text in the video. What kind of repeatability do you expect on the tool length? Do you think the Z zero will shift as the spindle ramps up above 1000rpm? Also if you rotated the fly weights 90degrees would the tool get pulled up into the taper as RPMs increase? Is there a way to design this without the multiple tapers? I would suspect they make the tool holders and spindle more expensive to manufacture. The TTS holders in contrast are pretty easy to machine and grind (even tho they are not as precise as a taper). I could see adding a bearing race in the middle of a cylindrical tool holder to engage the balls and another rebated cylinder with a groove for the fly weights to engage being pretty easy to machine then grind in comparison to multiple tapers.

[@christophersmith2852]

Mike - I do mention the fact that it operates only by spring pressure and flyweights in the description below the video. This project has taken on several changes since it started 16 months ago, each video showing the changes that were made and why they were made. This was a venture to create a tool changer for the four Taig machines that are in my machining lab so that I could teach my students on machines that could handle the abuse that is so prevalent in instructional labs without tearing up my industrial equipment. I wasn't planning to grind any surfaces but to make it acceptable to use for ordinary modeling and prototyping without making the silly thing so expensive that it costs more than the Taig itself. The next step is to have the finished prototype machined using materials that are much more resistant to abrasion (410ss for spindle / 303ss for the toolholders) unless anyone has a better solution and can suggest otherwise. This is not for industrial use, it was designed to be an inexpensive and affordable ATC for those who need and want one....and it works very well!

[@mortcs]

I'm glad it works well. I was thinking in terms of bringing a product to market and not a personal project. I hope you didn't read negative criticism into my post, I was just throwing out ideas in case something was helpful in a product development sort of way. Have you been noticing any variation in z-axis offset?

[@christophersmith2852]

By that do you mean "is there any difference from one tool to another?" Absolutely not, and for good reason...... Each tool is measured using a dummy spindle head where measurement of each tool is taken from the bottom of the dummy spindle to the tip of the tool (watch this video to see what I am talking about kzbin.info/www/bejne/npmwpqyiipdgZ68) It does not matter if there are variations between toolholders because those variations are measured and interpreted as a portion of the length of the tool. As in industrial applications the common location of each tool measurement is the bottom of the dummy spindle, not the tool holder itself. Once the tool has been measured the values can be manually entered in the tool registry without having to stop the program each time to measure the next tool. You can also set your machine up to use automatic tool tip measurement... but why do that when you can measure the tool one time and be done with it. I read no criticism at all in what you said! I do, from time to time, have to defend my reasoning for not wanting to harden the spindle and toolholders and to grind them to precise specifications. It is simply not needed for the work that this spindle is required do given the size and capacity of the Taig Mill. You mentioned Tormach tool holders.... do you have a Tormach mill?

[@christophersmith2852]

Mike - there is 70lbs static spring pressure holding the toolholder into the spindle before it even starts to rotate. The flyweight pins do nothing more than hold the toolholder in place while taking heavy cuts. Without the flyweights heavy cuts would allow the helical nature of the milling cutter to pull somewhat on the toolholder causing it to dislodge slightly and cause chatter. This design prevents the toolholder from moving at all while the spindle is in rotation.

[@mortcs]

I have a cnc converted grizzly G0704 and have been using TTS tool holders since they just required a modified 3/4 R8 collet and drawbar to get started. I bought some ground steel TTS endmill holders and have been machining more TTS holders in aluminum. I like how your design does not require a pneumatic piston on top of the spindle head, my spindle head is about to get really heavy with a 3-phase motor. I'm curious about how repeatable the z-zero is with an individual tool. Lets say you have 2 tools for a job, T1 and T2. If your job switches between tools 4 times, would the z-zero for T1 change between tool changes?

[@dragonjog]

how much is?

[@christophersmith2852]

still working on it

[@AnthonyWebb7]

Christopher Smith will the device only be compatible with the taig? You could probably sell a bunch more of they were compatible with the tormach tts footprint.

[@christophersmith2852]

Tormach already has its own ATC. When this finally hits the market it will be easily adaptable to all custom router and desktop R8 mill applications. Will also provide Mach3 Screenset containing many tool-changing configuration options.

[@andredauphin]

Hello, Christopher. Christopher, super workmanship is ideas ... Christopher you would be able to tell me if your pin head "Ball ATC" is on sale, if yes I give you my email address to answer me live, if not you could be a schematic With dimensions so that I can manufacture it for my high speed milling spindle 24000 rpm ER11 tip with a M14 x 0.75 mm pitch for mounting, the body of the spindle is 65 mm diameter water-cooled, this would be A plus for me without going through a pneumatic spindle ... I think to make a prototype for high speed spindle mounting, of course in associate yourself with the work you have already done with your agreement if you want it well .. . Christopher, waiting for your answer, I wish you a good continuation, I follow you, thank you ... André in France, sorry for the first message that was not in English ...

[@christophersmith2852]

24000 rpm is out of the question. There is no way that I would run it past 10K. It is too large and cannot be balanced, that with all the individual parts that is comprised of. Why do you need to run it 24000rpm?

[@andredauphin]

Hello, Christopher. Christopher, I may have mispronounced, 24000 rpm is the maximum that my spindle head can spin as it is a 3-phase water-cooled motor spindle controlled by a high frequency drive, so I can adjust the speed as I If you tell me that your assembly must not run at more than 10000 rpm, I would set it for a maximum of 9000 rpm that will suffice ... Christopher, it's to work in aluminum 7075 aviation like you with tungsten bur, here, I hope to have an answer from you, thank you ... André, I wish you a good continuation and a good day. ([e-mail])

[@christophersmith2852]

I will be manufacturing three variations of this spindle, the one you see in the videos that is complete with spindle housing and universal mount, a spindle designed to fit R-8 adaptable machinery, and possibly MT3. To produce a spindle with a raw, machinable shank would have to be requested by at least 10 people before it would be considered a marketable item. The costs associated with production of individual one-off design variations prohibit me from producing just one. I would need at least ten units sold for that to even happen.

[@andredauphin]

Christopher. I agree with you, but I would like to know the price of 10 unit in MT3, also if the MT3 is removable, to make my own support ... Or just make me the head without support I would make me even. Christopher, thank you for your dedication, I hope not to annoy you with my problem. Cordial greetings. André. (André[e-mail]) ...

[@lineage13]

Christopher Smith dude pls kick start this I wanna buy it!

[@oldschool1993]

So whatever happened to this thing? You can buy Chinese spindles with BT30 ATC for 700.00.

[@matthawkes4377]

Where do you find this chinese mill?