How the Lore Has Changed Since Arena & Daggerfall (Gods & Daedra) - The Elder Scrolls Lore

[@ImperialKnowledge]

I am considering doing a similar video on the worldbuilding changes at some point, anyne wwho would be up for that? Just polling.

[@TheVioletBunny]

Im interested

[@benjaminbeddow1421]

Very interested.

[@KingOfGamesss]

The Wiki page (Don't ask me to find the link) quoted "Daedra (singular: Daedroth)"...but now apparently they introduced a new REPTILLIAN Species called: 'Daedroth'......so......is it the Singular version of the word 'Daedra' or is it a whole Species of Life-Form creatures?...it can't be both...

[@grizdaberaz9329]

I'd love to see that.

[@feder2]

Yea that would be lit

[@Ocean_Gaming]

A.K.A.T.O.S.H -> Also Known As The Old Smaug Himself

[@ImperialKnowledge]

Yeah, imagine living on like that in a whole community.

[@NovoCognition]

The development of Elder Scrolls theological lore is indeed interesting. I'd be curious for knowledge of transformation in other areas of the lore.

[@jaydenlobbe7911]

Well after Daggerfall they omitted a very funny part of the book series "The Real Barenziah" That being the fact that Khajiit have barbed penises

[@eru.maewos7673]

Well, Red Mountain being named "Dagoth Ur" in TES Arena could be made canon by using the argument that people outside of Morrowind, could have known about Dagoth by the dunmer and then turned it - the name - into the terminology of the volcano instead. You know, like medieval europe was known as "Frankia" by the arab world.

[@DiocletianLarius]

It is already canon, the Red Mountain is called "Dagoth Ur" after him. In TES3:Morrowind you can access the Dwemer ruins inside the mountain which are also called "Dagoth Ur", and the dunmer talk about the Red Mountain as "Dagoth Ur Region"

[@DudioStudios]

In Dunmer culture the act of naming locations after famous people and deities is actually quite common. Take for example the city of Vivec, named after Vivec, because he lives there. Mournhold is sometimes referred to as Almalexia, and the Clockwork City it self is often referred to as Sotha-Sil. Calling the Mountain “Dagoth-Ur” really make sense with all that taken in to account.

[@Lupinemancer87]

Crazy to think that TES started out as a simple tabletop D&D game amongst the developers.

[@mkay6915]

Not so surprising if you look at the game mechanics in Arena. It's D&D 2nd edition through and through. Arena was basically a D&D game without the D&D license.

[@LetsGoGetThem]

@@mkay6915 Yes its surprising even if you consider those mechanics.

[@LordVader1094]

@@mkay6915 That was most RPGs tbh

[@tomosmorris9553]

This is a myth actually

[@Kummitusv6lur]

A lot of the elven lore and even the origin of the Breton's got really estabilished after Daggerfall. Daggerfall didn't use the -mer terminilogy (it used totally diferent names for the three main elven groups). The Dark Elves also were associated with night and darkness. Something that vanished with the changes,w hen the Dunmer lore was estabilished. The Direnni in Daggerfall were just a Breton noble family, getting later changed into almer and the reason why the breton's exist. (As a side note, I find it really fun that High Isle actually brings Druids of Galen from Arena description back into Breton lore) Ebonarm and Sai are a complicated topic. It's possible that the decision to write a separate yoku pantheon, one that was intentionally more North African themed might have gotten them initially retconned and Bethesda probably sticking to keeping them away until they realized that fanbase is a bit too enarmoured with them to fully leave them out. So they rather giovbe hints and toy with the topic. Other Daggerfall deities were "doomed" probably because of them never making into the game in no other form than random objects on the map. It's easy to assume if Vigryl would have had an actual temple and quests, then we would actually have him as a deity.

[@TheVioletBunny]

I feel like daggerfall is really when the lore started to solidify its self. Than once morrowind came the lore finished it’s final form. (Sorry not the best wording not sure how to explain it) but arena… was more of a skeleton for the basic idea.

[@theintroverse1905]

Morrowind gave you the final map fragments just to find out there's an underground section lol

[@TheVioletBunny]

@@theintroverse1905 after morrowind the lore sort of went down hill in my opinion oblivion world building was disappointing centered around a major landscape retcon and skyrim didn’t bring to much lore to the table to be honest. ESO has done more for the lore than anything else after morrowind as far as I’m concerned in terms of lore and world building.

[@theintroverse1905]

@@TheVioletBunny Sometimes Skyrim felt like the writers received the whole Elder Scrolls encyclopedia but just on reading mode. ESO is way more active in that regard but it hasn't been very consistent with some stuff that was established before, besides some DLCs like Orsinium or Elsweyr where i thought their storytelling was at its peak, sometimes it looks like they're just adding for the sake of adding. But I'll take anything i can get at this point, this world is amazing nonetheless.

[@TheVioletBunny]

@@theintroverse1905 maybe I’m bias because I’m a khajiit fanatic but they added so much to khajiit lore for me that was something that needed to be done (eso I’m referring too)

[@user-wr6dj4ib9o]

@@theintroverse1905 skyrim ruined nords lore before skyrim shouts was nordic magic and not dragons and skyrim was full of old wise wizards like gandalf skyrim turned nords into degenerates who hates magic i hate that

[@nikolapetrovic4814]

Elder Scrolls lore was always way more interesting than the games themselves.

[@BaronSengir1008]

Tiber Septim changed everything with CHIM...

[@theodentherenewed4785]

Very interesting topic, Talos managed to have his own story arc in the series. In Daggerfall, there's Mantella and Numidium, which helped Talos conquer Tamriel. In Morrowind, there's aspect of Talos called Wulf, who gives you a lucky coin before the confrontation with Dagoth Ur. In Oblivion, you recover the armor of Tiber Septim to obtain blood of the divines to open a portal to Mankar Camoran's Paradise. In Skyrim, there's a conflict over Talos being a god or a human. Interestingly, in Oblivion/Morrowind he seems to be an imperial divine (the armor pieces are imperial), but in Skyrim he's a god of the Nords. So they add new facts about the lore throughout the series, it suits the series perfectly, I like the ambiguity and I don't mind the contradictions, it just that the beliefs about the world change and it's a very local, typically for medieval setting. In Oblivion, cities also have their own divine patron - Dibella in Anvil etc. So they re-used this concept, it feels very natural that different regions would favour a specific divine.

[@jacobchamberlain3047]

Would honestly be very interested in seeing a video on world building changes

[@ultimateexergon]

The Arena god Baal became Molag Bal. According to the Daggerfall concept art Molag Bal was named Moloch Baal at first. In fact it is not the only name change that happened between the concept art and the end result: Malacath was named Mala Car in the concept.

[@colovianhastur5962]

I should point out that Shagrath is mentioned in ESO by Selene, and Vanus Galerion theorizes that Shagrath might be another name for Mephala.

[@ImperialKnowledge]

Really???? That is awesome!

[@kevind3974]

I also think lyraneth mentions him once as well. But she’s also just a whole other beast as she’s probably the most connected and thus confusing deadra out their so who the fuck knows what she’s actually talking about

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

I hope every single deity in the elder scrolls arena that's been scrapped or forgotten returns one day and gets re-canonized. Such as Ius

[@Daniele-PierreDuLac]

Actually Shagrath is mentioned in ESO by Selene the forest spirit. One of her forms is also a spider.

[@soggyapples1518]

I'd like to think that arena is canon but fictional like mysteries of talara. Like a children's story of great heroes, which almost certainly exists.

[@soggyapples1518]

Dude imagine running a dnd campaign and years later finding out it got turned into a AAA game franchise.

[@jzargo5797]

That which will always remain is the fact that J'zargo is the greatest sorcerer of all times.

[@SofaKingStupid]

I think it's interesting how much the lore has changed. Also, I remember you mentioning your exams. I hope those went well for you

[@ImperialKnowledge]

So far they did. Got about half the results in and all good so far! Got one more essay but def more time to work on vids now again. Time to work on some bigger projects peope have been asking about lol

[@LordVader1094]

Daggerfall is really where the lore gets started, Redguard solidified it (mer, Dwemer tech, Talos, etc) and then Morrowind completed it while deepening it further.

[@jeffreyaguilar8028]

Imagine if Arena got a full remaster with the retconned lore. So the map would have to be changed which I’m fine with cities and towns not being massive mazes, do reworking on the dungeons cause again mazes. Maybe do what ESO did with cities that were in previous games by just spreading around buildings and rework the landscape. And also imagine my reaction to Jagar Tharn being a wood elf. Is he wood elf or an imperial cause I got no clue about that man except what he does.

[@Taikomo]

What an amazing idea for a video, much appreciated!

[@chadgoose7886]

Awesome video and works perfectly. I just got into daggerfall unity and was wondering how the lore changed. You should do more videos about lore changes over the years

[@tarunyadav6808]

I've always wanted to know more about this topic!

[@user-wr6dj4ib9o]

i heard that uriel septim in arena or daggerfall in french version says he has daughter which was never mentioned before

[@walnzell9328]

The Brotherhood of Seth could just be a fancy Mystery of Talara fanclub that worships the concept of Seth and what he stands for.

[@DudioStudios]

Calling the Red Mountain “Dagoth-Ur” does make sense when you realize, that in the Dunmer’s culture the act of naming locations after famous people and deities is quite common. Take for example the city of Vivec, named after Vivec, because he lives there. Mournhold is sometimes referred to as Almalexia, and even the Clockwork City it self is often referred to as Sotha-Sil. I’m sure there are more examples.

[@diogogarcez9519]

Your intro is one of the best i've seen in channels. Very good.

[@sarge2860]

Ah another video I see, I love it!

[@darryllyle5250]

Thank you for this video. I've heard a lot of people complain about how ESO changed the lore. So, I always wondered if there was a guide or video on how the lore has changed through out the series and how any game can "mess up" the lore. This goes a long way to helping me figure out the lore changes.

[@colbyboucher6391]

ESO didn't really change anything. They found a chunk of history where not much happened and decided to fill it out. Yeah, it's pretty bizarre in hindsight that no one mentioned how Molag Ballin' screwed everyone over for a while, but still.

[@Okami1313]

Wasn't Seth the precursor of sithis lore wise? I swear I remember seeing Seth as an alternate version of sithis somewhere in the lore

[@ieuanclouter8494]

I always thought Seth was another name for Sithis. A lot of gods/princes have different names in different pantheons. Explains there being a Brotherhood of Seth, like the Dark Brotherhood, who worship a different, more accepted aspect of Sithis.

[@idipped2521]

Please do a video on the Ebonarm subject. I wonder if he will be in TES VI

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

Consistency: exists Elder Scrolls: no we don't do that here

[@ComradeCasper]

Currently playing through arena and I can't seem to find much of this lore myself? Obviously there's the artifacts but where do you hear about the mad God? And Shagrath? And Boetiah? There's no books to read in game so where do you find this information?

[@ImperialKnowledge]

I don’t exactly remember (currently at work) but I remember going through pretty much every piece of documented dialogue of arena for the gods there and some location names. A lot of these were off hand dialogue mentions. Concerning daggerfall, that game had a lot of shrines and more concrete lore.

[@ChristisLord1917]

LETSSS GOOOO NAME ON DA SCREEN

[@acolyte1951]

really good video topic

[@mkay6915]

One part of your video is wrong. Not the essence of Talos was trapped in the mantella but the soul of Zurin Arctus. Talos was just the Name of Tiber Septim before he became Emperor and wasn't a god at all. That part of the Lore came with Morrowind. Talos/Tiber Septim in Daggerfall was also the first Emperor of the first human empire not the third like in the later games.

[@ImperialKnowledge]

I believe they explained it away by having Zurin Arctus soul being part of the god Talos. But it's pretty open to interpretation and I oversimplified A LOT for the sake of it not being a video about Talos instead haha. So yeah, I read some interpretations which were different, so agreed I could be wrong. (Which is why I said that thats how I interpret it)

[@DarkPsychoMessiah]

Yes it has, and that's not a bad thing.

[@user-wr6dj4ib9o]

arena had no solsteim on the map

[@nicolasde9949]

What if the first entry is from another Kepler cycle

[@LowEffortDoodles]

12:16 "Feel free to check out the competition (if you cant wait for me to make the video) AHAHAHAHA

[@liondovegm]

KZbin chose this video specifically to show me.. oh wait no it didn't I had to comb my subs and set to chronological

[@Buzk_4]

God of the sea? I expect him have plastic chair as his main atribute

[@TheVioletBunny]

When is my cherim video coming :( I requested ages ago where is the love for my khajiit ?

[@ImperialKnowledge]

A Zork is never late, when he makes a video he does so precisely when he means to.

[@TheVioletBunny]

@@ImperialKnowledge 🙀

[@ImperialKnowledge]

Because I am not saying the script was almost finished and ready for release next week. But I am saying that I am mentioning you harassing me about it even as I had it almost finished hahaha. Just kidding i dont mind. Hope you'll like the video when it comes out tho.

[@memberberry5898]

discord link broke ?

[@Ragucci25]

Hey the discord link does not work

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

To be honest. Ius is the most interesting to me

[@damnablethief]

Ya but dragon break

[@thesmilyguyguy9799]

= D

[@MadfellaDuke]

I don't know why no one talks about it but on Arena's cover art, the dude on the left has Todd Howard's face

[@KingOfGamesss]

The Wiki page (Don't ask me to find the link) quoted "Daedra (singular: Daedroth)"...but now apparently they introduced a new REPTILLIAN Species called: 'Daedroth'......so......is it the Singular version of the word 'Daedra' or is it a whole Species of Life-Form creatures?...it can't be both...

[@BaronSengir1008]

It is in fact both...

[@KingOfGamesss]

@@BaronSengir1008 ...that's an unfortunate shame...

[@unbreakablelag]

Bet the Thalmor had something to do with all these human gods disappearing from history

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

Would you worship (your character) these obscure daggerfall and arena deities? Such as Ius a fun deity and personal favorite of mine.

[@jacobcox2006]

Can someone please send an invite to the Discord Group, the link seems invalid.

[@hitomisalazar4073]

Yeah, it's a good point to lay out. Most people think Morrowind is when "the lore" started and it's the origins/correct version in any contradiction. But almost everything Morrowind did was take Daggerfall's lore and slightly sharpen it up. Probably the biggest actual change they made was saying the 9 Divines all hung out together and were one big happy family instead of the infighting between Temples from Daggerfall. I kind of wish the Brotherhood of Seth came back for a game honestly. Maybe in ESO. Since we know they had connections with Jagar Tharn, and while I dislike them making the "Tharns" an actual thing, they did... having something where like Clivia Tharn sets up her own new religion as the Brotherhood of Seth, and it carries on until Jagar basically is such a black mark (as he is) name wise that everyone disbands the temples, sacks them, priests go into hiding, etc. That could be an interesting dynamic for a quest and story. With this religion that was created by a power mad Empress Regent centuries ago which now might be a real religion but is shamed in a way that nothing else really in the games quite is because Jagar Tharn even centuries later is considered this thrice cursed being. I know basically Bethesda wants to bury everything about Arena deep in a hole and hope people forget about it... but... it was the start of things. Remembering it exists and using it wouldn't be bad. Heck I marked out hard in Skyrim when the Legacy of the Dragonborn mod brought back the Arena only artifact of King Orgham's Coffer. But I might be alone in that, because when people ask for Artifacts to come back they only ever seem to reference Morrowind (wanting things like the Ice Blade of the Monarch) and ignoring other games and their own artifacts. I wouldn't mind more of those older call backs. Like I was surprised they brought back Auriel's Bow in Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC. But I figured they included it because it was in Morrowind rather than a callback to Arena (where it was far more OP in its game). The only Daggerfall thing with Gods that struck me as weird compared to the newer lore is... in Daggerfall Azura comes off as kind of... a shallow bimbo? Like she's all "Hehehe, you think I'm beautiful right? You are smitten by my beauty because like, that's all that matters!" and gets upset if you say you don't want her body. Completely contrary to her latter lore of basically a spiteful motherly bitch who creates the downfall of two entire races because someone played a trick on her once.