How This Game Dev Got 150,000 Wishlists In A Month - Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 021

[@thomasbrush]

► Support David and enroll in his course: courses.gamedevunlocked.com/p/game-dev-unlocked?coupon_code=WHSTHOMAS80&product_id=3035771 ► Play the demo: store.steampowered.com/app/1559720/We_Harvest_Shadows/ ► Learn how to make money from your indie games (free webinar): www.fulltimegamedev.com/opt-in-how-to-make-six-figures

[@TheProphecy64]

Being the younger brother of David, I’ve always seen such an incredible creative side of his during our childhood. So amazing to see his work reaching other gamers and creators!

[@dearkorina3157]

I can tell you two are good friends. Ive seen a lot of interviews on this channel, and this is the most comfortable one. Like you guys are just hanging out opening up.

[@smashbuttongamesadmin1896]

David Wehle is an incredibly talented and visionary game developer, and it's been such a privilege to work alongside him. Among everyone we've collaborated with, David stands out for his humility, compassion, and empathy. We genuinely couldn't ask for a better partner in bringing this project to life, and we feel truly blessed to be part of his journey. Watching this talk was deeply inspiring-it resonated with developers on every level. His support, patience, and dedication mean the world to us. Thank you, David, for being such an invaluable part of our lives and our work.

[@JorgeBarreraC]

This is by far the best podcast you have made ever. So much value from this conversation. I am looking so much forward to both games!

[@I24FFA]

1:28:52 "that's what I think the great stories do out there, they teach us about ourselves most of all and then we become better people for it" great observation!

[@zivivi32]

I needed this. Thank you Thomas and David Whele... I was going through a rough patch in my journey. Thank you for everything you shared. it helped a lot!

[@SlimeShisho]

My favorite podcast duo. I own both your courses

[@simonrockstream]

You deserve all the good stuff coming your way David. Great podcast you two!

[@Nobody6146]

Commenting that it seems Thomas you have taken a lot of the feedback from the comment section. This podcast was much more “professional” on your part. No long rants, stayed more on topic, let your guest speak, not overdoing self promotion, minimal ego stroking, removing your bits of starring off into the distance, etc. Nice job!

[@samhblackmore]

Totally agree! I will also say that David does a fantastic job keeping the conversation on track. There's a continuous thread throughout the whole convo where he's going chronologically through his career and the lead up to the reveal of We Harvest Shadows with Geoff Keighley and the wishlist numbers. That's what really brings this episode to the next level for me. Sometimes the episodes can feel a little meandering and disjointed but this one had such a great flow and direction partly thanks to David. Great job both!

[@jeroneslowter7817]

I know you probably heard this time and time again but I want to say I admire your passion. I come from a poor background and always wish I had the education/resources to become a game developer. Now I’ve decided to self teach but immediately was intimidated by all the burn out on youtube. Your truthful story encouraged me to not quit even though I know what’s ahead of me. Keep inspiring man!👏🏾🔥

[@dustwrites]

wow - I relate to this video at a very deep level. Thanks to both of you for the vulnerable conversation. I've been working full time as a game dev for others for 30 years and writing books on the side. Mostly because the people I work for have non-competes that don't allow me to make games on the side, but also because I love writing and storytelling. One time, when I was in a HUGE creative funk I was chatting with my editor, a wonderful, successful editor from one of the big book publishers. She's seen it all, and she gave me this advice. "If you can quit, you should." It was her best advice for being happy long term. She told me that right after I finished my 2nd book, and I took it to heart. Last month, I published my 13th, and perhaps, final book. I had to work through it - I had to get the stories out - I had to explore. Two weeks ago I moved that story exploration to making a game FOR ME. I don't know that I'll ever publish it. Not sure I want to, if I'm being honest, but I'm grateful everyday for the outlet. I really do love and appreciate you, Thomas. And David (who I worked with at The Void for a minute :)), has been a huge inspiration for me as well. You both do a lot for the community, but it's honest discussions like that that truly touch and help me. Thanks.

[@misteriwa]

I think one of the key points was where both agreed that living a somewhat simple life with your family and private property. That is really noteworthy. After coming to that realization, we should make efforts to keep the scope of our goals, both financial and in game design, reasonable. How much money would you theoretically need to live the lifestyle you want? Find that and then keep on guard from 'lifestyle inflation.' Thanks for your insightful and honest discussion, Thomas & David. Very inspirational.

[@SlowlyMakingItHappen]

Survival template pro is one asset used. The HQ retro house is also the main environment.

[@SlowlyMakingItHappen]

After looking at the product, I would call it a professional "Asset Flip". I am considering remaking the game but better, and there is nothing really stopping me from doing it. Maybe a month of work. Change the name by one letter and the author would have no recourse. So asset flip is on the list of top tier things to make.

[@xkoan-yy7lg]

do you think you're making a point by listing the assets? its been a month - where is your game?

[@Chewbert]

@@SlowlyMakingItHappen”game dev” complains of asset flips with 0 revenue from his own published projects.

[@viniciuseduardo8790]

As an experienced software developer (+10 years) and a beginner solo indie game developer and artist (around 2 years) I can't agree enough with the example of "building a house in the middle of a hurricane". This was something that was haunting me for months, I'm finally being able to understand my feelings, it is some sort of self-awareness that is helping me to get through this challenge. Most of this knowledge comes from the talks I hear in this podcast series, so please continue with this content, it is helping me as a indie game dev more than anything else before and will certainly help a lot of other indie game devs out there!

[@nights312312]

I don’t feel like that anymore, I think it’s something that goes away when you get more experience. I realise though that the difficult part of making games is actually designing good games.. being a very experienced developer or artist does not help you with this

[@MrChambers]

Thank you both so much for this interview. It’s so nice to hear people like you guys going through the same mental anguish as myself.

[@DoubleSeeks]

I could listen to this all day. The biggest thing that comes across is how much "give a damn" you guys put into your work and it's inspiring. ❤

[@a6gittiworld]

Great interview. Really appreciate both of you for all the honesty about the indie game dev work/life, mental health etcetera. Great one.

[@fedebreserart2047]

I really enjoyed the honesty of the words shared on this interview, I´v been following you both for few years now, and even done your courses, and I can tell you with these type of true conversations is from where I learn and also find some wisdom that I can apply to my own journey. Learning a software or a marketing strategy, is the easiest part, but mentally prepare yourself for some lonely road full with obstacles is the hardest challenge, and even sometimes the most difficult challenges comes from our own mind. Keep it going guys!

[@ghabrielF]

Loved this episode, probably my favorite so far! David is such a nice guy! It's amazing how he believed in his game when everybody was saying it wasn't going to work. And also that "wish fulfillment" is such a clever way to come up with a hook, I'm gonna be thinking about that a lot for sure.

[@Azeree123]

These are always incredibly insightful

[@hatchlingsgames]

Amazing chat between you both. Empathise so much with Thomas when he said he’d missed that October deadline. We made a cosy horror tabletop RPG and it’s also going to miss Halloween 😅

[@ReyvinHill1981]

I think you (David) hit the nail on the head. It's about atmosphere. I am a weenie and do not like horror games. But ... one of my favorite KZbinrs played your game and I was hooked. I've watched dozens of videos of your demo because I love the game but I also love watching other people fall in love with it too. I love seeing all the different scares depending on how the person plays the game. I will turn off a KZbinr playing it if I feel they are destroying the atmosphere of the game. That's what I love most about your game. I've even managed to make myself play it and while I was terrified the entire time, (which makes no sense since I knew every word of it by heart much less the events), I absolutely loved just being there. Thank you for all your hard work and keep at it. I can't wait for your game to be the first horror game I play.

[@Catjinni]

Really appreciate your honesty, your talk is very relaxed and real. It's so refreshing to see! And lot's to learn!

[@nullx2368]

I get so many people telling me "Stop trying to make money out of games, it's art". Just because i view games as how I'd like to earn my living doesn't mean I'm evil. Something inside of me refuses to do anything else... If I'm gonna make money it will be game dev related, end of story.

[@wtmftproductions]

That camera zoom at 35:55 caught me off guard in such the right way!

[@mattp8665]

What an episode, Thomas. Really valuable for those of us in the weeds working on our passion projects. David I really hope this game goes gangbusters for you and you are afforded the opportunity for a break and a reset. My son and I loved the first tree and I can't wait for We Harvest Shadows! Can I suggest listening to Andrew Huberman's latest episode with Lex Fridman... He goes deep on dopamine and burnout and how to manage and, importantly, reset that dopamine balance. Love to see you continue making games, just not at the cost of your mental health. Wonderful, insightful episode... thanks for this one ❤

[@LadyFoxHound]

as a new game dev myself and just starting my journey i find these videos SO incredibly helpful. Thank you for these, they provide tons of insight and tips and considerations. ❤

[@JJSmalls]

Best podcast I've watched in a while. Looking forward to the next one!

[@OrangeCat-vj4qx]

really good interview! You guys bring something (a realistic and honest perspective) to game dev youtube that is different to everyone else and i appreciate that

[@piratemin_vr]

God this is resonating with me so much. It's exactly like a drug, I'm also addicted to working on my games. I know they suck and I'll never market them right, but that constant positive feedback loop has me absolutely addicted. I recently got laid off from a big VR studio and have moved back to public sector work, but the industry is brutal right now. My advice, at least right now, is to stick with what is secure but don't let it slow down your creativity. Your boss doesn't care about you, so do what you can to walk that fine line without losing your job.

[@PobatoGames]

The introduction to the video was 10/10! Game Dev can be soooo hard but also soooo rewarding!

[@JonathonSchwartz-d4o]

Love your channel, but would like to see some more variety. I miss the Steam page reviews especially. I think it's good to look at people who've had huge success but also focus a lot on examples of where things could improve. Would also be cool to see stories where things went really bad, all to learn form of course. Wish you the best.

[@ivanopol]

I really enjoyed this conversation. Lots of useful information and pleasant communication with good people.

[@BronsonBragg]

I bought Game Dev Unlocked, David. I was setting aside some $ for it and this sale allowed me to buy it YESTERDAY. Been loving it so far. Thank you! and I'm so stoked for We Harvest Shadows. I'll be a day 1 buyer. (same with Twisted Tower. Already got $ set aside for both)

[@taliaspencer9093]

The energy of this conversation reminds me of when I was first getting into film.. and all the jaded professionals were telling me "what if you don't make it though.. some people struggle forever, look at the rough side, look at the rough side, be careful." - and I would think to myself... maybe it's nuts.. but I don't believe in not making it. I just don't even like looking at all the cynicism.. I'd rather focus on the beauty and love of the design. And guess what, I made it in film when my own world class pro teachers were telling me "don't try, it's too hard.".. eff that.

[@29Mozay29]

Would love to hear another talk with David! Really great, down to earth conversation

[@bronson8x993]

Great discussion. Warm and interesting. Thanks guys for this!

[@DonaldDuvall]

Just got the course. I hope it helps him finish his project, without having to take a publisher, if he doesn't want one. Good luck, and I loved this discussion.

[@andrewbeers2548]

I saw Splattercat play the demo. I had it up on my second screen and it totally stole my attention away from my dev. It gave me some silent hill vibes so it is appropriate he is wearing a silent hill shirt. Splat had the best reactions to it and made me want to play it. Also... you get to take care of a stray cat. You all are way more successful than me but I can relate to some of your emotions. It's crazy because I didn't recognize them until I heard you all talk about it. Thank you.

[@WorldAquariumSingapore]

Wow initially i thou the path was difficult but later in the video seems u both are making and investimg over hundreds of thousands into your own game devs,gamedev is such a see saw up down biz, take care guys

[@stephenonline345]

Thank you so much for this interview, tremendous insight and lessons

[@storylygames9770]

loved watching you both chatting to eachother. Nice and helpful video

[@astro_case]

Best episode so far! You guys are great.

[@ipoma]

“Doing tasks during the day and trying to survive the night.” Me too bro. Me too

[@MaxxKatarn]

Wow, here come again the fantastic 2! 😃 So glad you're making another video together.

[@MikeyOfLegend]

This episode left me feeling a mix of sadness and happiness all at once.

[@Painmore]

Happiness is in the process! You can't BE HAPPY, you can DO HAPPY

[@DaveUnreally]

The butter spread to thin over too much bread is my constant. Great video guys

[@jumitgames]

Great vid, very direct and real on what people should consider before just jumping from the cliff of following a dream, very valuable. Dreaming is great, internal peace is better I think, I also suffer from these things, those topics are hard on you, drive them carefully.

[@screenapple1660]

Things I learned about game development. you lose a sleep. you feel like time runs so fast. When you open UE at 6 pm... few clicks. drag drop, feel like it's 8 -12 pm. But the real time 2 am.

[@Athanasius-t1t]

Your game sounds brilliant man!!!! I just downloaded the demo and hope to play tomorrow... Not tonight cause I stayed up till 12 AM to watch this...

[@cmccune13]

Love listening to you guys. Respect

[@emanuel-alvgard]

The friend zoned part just hit different. A little to relatable

[@ryujintechgames]

Fantastic title and great gripping intro!

[@jumitgames]

dare to say, your best vid ever Thomas, great mate!

[@WayTooManyNames]

Because of the intense need for iteration I believe I remember a gdc talk on Skyrim saying they iterated or remade each level about 7 times on average, so three ground up redos is not bad! I wish I had had the heart to do that with the levels of my game, they needed the extra passes!

[@_the_dare_devil_]

Professional Programmer speaking (working in the industry from 2012). When I was younger I loved my job, I loved programming, now, after all these years, I freaking hate it. ; ) I love the idea about the farm that you talked about at 1:26:30

[@Yoshi889]

Saw David at the Tokyo Game Show last month! Awesome game.

[@qryptid]

Loved the film talk because game and film are so deeply connected. If The Village has no fans I have died so glad to hear yall have good taste lol. I think Little Hope, game by Supermassive, suffered the same fate where the twist was actually interesting but was so far removed from what the audience was anticipating that it seems the entire emotional content that came before is meaningless to a ton of people. Like the past several hours weren't beautiful and didn't make your heart race because you didn't see the forewshadowing for the twist and it took you out of it.

[@heyderekj]

There's so much emotion in this episode. Is the book mentioned actually REWORK by 37signals (Jason Fried and DHH)?

[@TeacupgamesYT]

Go David… go go go! You knew what would work! Farming and light horror with heart! Whats not too love! I am in

[@DogolatChocolat]

I'm always finding places to go after devs release their games. Where I'm I supposed to go or talk to when I have not even a demo? Just videos of my game. I'm really trying to make it and bring the best quality games to my audience.

[@prodeous]

Thanks for another great interview..

[@radishmonster2760]

Looking forward to the next one with david :)

[@N7sensei]

I run my own IT consulting company (private entrepreneur). The money is okay, but the work hours are CRAZY and the STRESS is colossal. Clients breaching the contract, not wanting to pay, tens of thousands $ delayed for 3 months. Dumb clients, finding new clients. Negotiations. Taxes. Legal stuff. Etc. I barely sleep a few hours per day on average. Always feel like I'm on thin ice. Always feel like I'm one particularly bad day away from a heart attack (not today, heart, I have aging parents and kids to take care of!). Always in warmode. It's exhausting. Ironically, I daydream about dumping this stressful, shitty form of life, and doing solo indie dev instead, lol. But the salary cut would be insane unless my game sold hundreds of thousands of copies over a few years and I was able to replicate that success every few years. Which is pretty much impossible.

[@d369studios]

Great video guys . . . so much I can related to "sacrifice"

[@sanchitgngplays]

Great one, loved every bit of it.

[@MattRead13]

This was a great episode

[@andreaskrbyravn855]

brilliant twisted tower gameplay trailer

[@chidorirasenganz]

I think a great game has elements of wish fulfillment, fun and or creating an experience

[@IThePrototype]

I just realized the new game is reflection of his mental self. Dark, depressive, empty. Guy is strugling and I feel for the guy. Fuck, he spent all of the money from the first game and probably some more and is now betting on a second game. Going full time dev was not a smart choice when you have a family to take care of. But you see it in his first game that the reflection of him was full of hope and joy and beauty. Guys, take a lesson here. Keep your dayjob and your sanity. Being indie dev is like being a robber and robbing banks. You cant just rob one and be done. You have to keep robbing. And game dev isnt fun at all when it becomes a job.

[@DeathWishGames]

very interesting! i was also hoping to get a demo out before Halloween, as my new game is about a strawberry fighting off junk food xD

[@Quintebud]

Watched it by three youtubers you made a start of a great life finally you hit it sell it for 40 to 50 dollars and you'll have millions

[@benpielstick]

Thank you for not using a clickbait title!

[@fceruti]

Awesome story, thanks for sharing!

[@Larsson19933]

Easily the best game dev interview / hangout I've seen. So relaxed and so interesting and relatable discussions. You guys are both huge inspirations, and I have bought courses from you both. So great to see this collab. I'm working on my own first game and can relate to David that I just want to announce my game to see if my gut feeling is right. More content from you guys please! 🫶

[@I24FFA]

what engine are you using? for how long has been the development? do you regret starting the project? im thinking on the possibility of trying to create a game myself, people like these two guys have inspired me to at least try but i'm afraid of the fact that i might not be competent enough, all the learning i would have to do, and if i could manage my time to have my life and still develop the game, i know nothing about game development but have watched some videos of thomas in the last months and he got me thinking, what if... and honestly i'm getting tired of just playing games, maybe because eventually that's what naturally happens when you get older, but it's a very interesting idea of creating your own game!

[@Larsson19933]

@@I24FFA I use Unity and have been developing for maybe 4 years, only 1-year full time. I was a lawyer and had no education from game dev and it is fully possible to learn much yourself, i.e. without a degree. But I recommend taking courses like Davids or Thomas and not trying to figure out everything yourself. However, what I have learned is that game development is much harder than it seems and making a real game take soo much longer than you can think. So, you will probably need to have a long runway with money, at least 3 years or more. You say that you know nothing about game development so I would not recommend you to quit your job if you have any. You will learn super much the first years and you don’t want the financial stress of trying to learn basic skills and also make money on it. Nobody buys games created by following basic tutorials. It is super fun creating your own game so I would recommend you to start if your interested. Just make sure you have income from other means while learning. Also, this means you probably don’t need to make a big life change right now and can just start learning game development. Start now and enjoy it stress free. 😊

[@Larsson19933]

@@I24FFA I answered your comment yesterday but now I can’t find my reply. Weird, I guess I will rewrite it. 😊 I have been doing game development for about 4 years but only 1-year full time. I use Unity right now. I think it’s great that you’re interested in game development because it is really fun and rewarding. But I have learned that making a full game is sooo much harder and more time consuming than one would think. I used to be a lawyer and have learned everything I know about game development on my own, from courses, KZbin videos and books. You don’t need a degree in game development to make games but there is a lot to learn, and I recommend you not to try to discovery all the knowledge on your own and instead use resources such as courses, KZbin videos and book to learn from others mistakes and victories. If you are thinking about quitting your job right now, I would strongly recommend against it since you still need to learn the basics of game development. You don’t want the financial burden of needing to make money to survive while learning basic stuff that nobody would pay money for. However, this is a good thing since it means that you don’t need to take a big life decision right now and instead can buy one of the guy’s courses and start learning game development today. 😊

[@IronAgeDOTMedia]

The holy crap jump cut cracked me up

[@DavidZobristGames]

its not really 'everyone' that tells you that it sucks. Its yourself that says this, so its mainly overcoming yourself.

[@oleksiifisher8175]

Love that we have the same taste in horror movies 😆

[@roborogue_]

i really enjoyed this video and the more personal vibe

[@galamotshaku]

Great, this is the type of motivation I needed to keep working on my project

[@bankbarcomo806]

@1:27:00 Grew up on acreage, hobby ranch. 60 acres from age 3 till 16, 200 acres after that which my parents are still on. I don't regret it at all, and if moving out to that kind of area wouldn't cost me things which are important to me, I would do it in an instant. (If the wife agreed, which I think she would.)

[@omerfarukbykl6097]

Oh, long time no see.

[@YTmingle]

Dear Thomas and Devid I watch this entire video right after 1 hour it’s released, also yesterday I saw BiteMe Games video with Devid. You three guys are inspiration and amazing ❤ right after watching this video I’ve downloaded the Demo and played. It’s AMAZING 🤩 EXCELLENT 👌🏻 🎉 also wish listed. Thank you , best luck and keep it up. ❤

[@scgstudio]

I make games for ~14 years now. Making them does not bring "happyness". It brings TOTAL sense of accomplishment. To some extent, even money are not taken as a "reward". It is enough to make it ( game ) and "pull it outside" like a released bird. A bit of cheap poetry here but I don't care ;) Some people ( as usual ) see making games as a typical job. You do it, you get payed. End of story. Process of creation ( making something nearly physical out of nothing ) cannot be translated into materialized value. Joy of creation, struggling when it is not as expected, hope for the best but you can't prepare fully yourself for the worst. And good sells is almost a byproduct of this process. Money become a tool ( as they should be used ) rather than a goal. And a goal ? Always next game, always next "something out of nothing". Great talk :)

[@mattsponholz8350]

Amazing discussion. A total aside... sincerely, I have absolutely nothing but respect for the game, but as a father of a 7 and 5 year old, I would rather lose a foot than play "That Dragon, Cancer". I rarely, if ever, tear up around anyone, but I merely think of a scene from "What remains of Edith Finch" and I could completely lose it regardless of where I am. Losing a child is the (worse) adult version of first hearing your dad is going to die one day.

[@radub6941]

Hi Thomas, i have 2 questions for you: 1) how do you manage to do all that work with 3 kids? How do you keep up with everything. And 2) maybe this is for David but as well as for you, what are the costs that he had with the new game that were so high, and what would be the costs of a solo indie game dev? Thanks a lot, man!

[@Hewhoisseth]

I loved the village too haha

[@vladrez]

what we do in the shadows? we harvest shadows)

[@Fallen_Dev]

🤣

[@IvanTeslenko]

We harvest shadows, we light the hay)

[@BrendaKincaid]

Would it be more like: If there is one game dev that inspired me to copy the whole course selling thing? I fail to shake off the idea that ever since you did the interview with him, only weeks later you jumped the bandwagon. No offense though, it seems that creating a profitable game isn't that easy, since you need to rely on overly expensive courses.

[@KarlOlofsson]

It's a pretty damn cool title to be honest.

[@TheGonzaDev]

1:21:36 What would be the wish fulfillment of Choo-Choo charles? (I'm just trying to underestand, I'm not saying it in a negative way)

[@_KondoIsami_]

charles is the predator and you are the prey, maybe you upgrading the train and being able to confront Charles and becoming powerful fulfills a common wish? another thing could be the preparation leading to victory.

[@TheGonzaDev]

@@_KondoIsami_ Something like improving and overcoming an obstacle, makes sense, Thanks!

[@JJSmalls]

Being on a train I guess is the wish fulfillment.

[@LoftyRobot]

I'd love to be interviewed. I am a solo game dev doing all code and art for a full 3d multiplayer game with multiple worlds, enemies, weapons, vehicles, and gear with in depth customization. I don't think there are many out there doing all that I have been for the past several years and if there is, I'd like to meet them. I don't say this as bragging as much as it will come off that way, which is whatever sure, but I am looking for an honest comparable to know how crazy I am.

[@egretfx]

I want a game by you two!...❤

[@CmogVT]

I find it quite interesting that the target audience of Twisted Tower is Bioshock fans when, Thomas, you didn't enjoy it. It makes me ask myself, "How does Thomas plan on delivering a similar experience that will capture that demographic when he, himself, doesn't enjoy that game?" I'd love to hear your thoughts!

[@GreedAndSelfishness]

He's not much of gamer in general, which is why his gameplay sucks in his games.

[@SlowlyMakingItHappen]

I recognize the assets used in the videos.

[@robaustin_]

I love splattercat.

[@Laumania]

That freedom you explain it would give you to have millions - it's that freedom you get from having a day job and make games at night really. You don't have to have millions to get to that. Sure millions in the bank would be nice, but it's not realistic to 99.9% of people - having some kind of day job is very doable. By doing that you don't have to do all the other source of income you have, that time you spend on a job that provide sure money, removing the pressure on your game dev journey :)

[@yashaswiification]

It's the same things every one of us go through! :) it's so so hard !!!!