How to angle loudspeakers

A perfect triangle or are there other secrets to stereo imaging?

[@stonefree1911]

Since most of us have more "realistic" systems, a little toe in is usually required with most speakers. But Paul makes good points. As little toe in as possible.

[@johnnytheg]

I inherited my speakers from my father. he always had them pointing straight ahead and I have had them for 30 years toed in, when i finally moved them to the flat position, they completely opened up. What a difference. I am with Paul 100%

[@edgar9651]

Thanks Paul. It's amazing to see "little Paul" between those huge speakers. ;)

[@Paulmcgowanpsaudio]

They're big, right?

[@happyfisch1033]

Hey Paul, I think you understood the question wrong. I think Pablo meant an equilateral triangle when he said 'perfect triangle'. So that the distance from the listening position to one of the speakers is the same as the distance between the speakers. Have a nice day ☺️

[@adamk4716]

That’s exactly what Pablo meant. So either Paul misinterpreted it or didn’t want to answer the direct question cause his setup is not even close to an equilateral triangle.

[@irashapiro9189]

I'll find an isosceles triangle works best for me.

[@TheThatoneguy12121]

@@irashapiro9189 I'm all about the obtuse triangle.

[@CaveyMoth]

My Klipsch speakers are like freaking laser beams. I can hear the exact spot where the horn loaded tweeters converge. It's like a holographic image that I can slip into or behind when moving my chair around. And when I reduce the toe-in, it's fascinating to hear the soundstage widen until it extends beyond the outside of the speakers. But at this point, the center image sounds kind of quiet and diffuse compared to sounds coming from either side. I recommend trying very directional speakers for this reason; It's fun hearing how geometry affects the sound of a speaker setup.

[@dhpbear2]

It sounds like your tweeters are out-of-phase.

[@CaveyMoth]

@@dhpbear2 They probably are, lol. Darn klipsch... I want to upgrade to some KEF speakers.

[@justanobody4983]

Its pretty rare to find speakers not costing a fortune to sound good without much toe in. The cheapest ive heard is the ls50 meta. No toe in at all needed. The imaging is just spot on but you have to them around 6ft apart minimum. Spectacular speakers for the price and will be saving up to get those. Great video as always paul!

[@audio_acoustic_engineering]

I love the tree diffusers❤️

[@garysmith8455]

I did very little 'playing' with my Martin Logan Classic 9's. I set them up according to the owner's manual as far as distance from the wall and the amount of toe in. I DID, like Paul, and sit OUTSIDE of the equal triangle. Speakers are 14' apart, my sofa for 3 listeners is back 20'. There is only so much you can do with a true dipole/linesource such as these, as I don't believe they suffer the issues of 'box' type speakers. The results are very nice.

[@fabrisony7729]

In my experience, with speakers toed in you actually have a more stable (center) image for all seats. With speakers pointed forward, if you don't seat at center, you would be exaggeratedly off-axis in respect to the far speaker. Furthermore, it's not matter of "good" or "bad" off-axis response, actually every speaker on and off axis permormance is different in the mid-highs, if you want the most linear response and the one the speakers were engineered for, generally you'd better listen on-axis.

[@gotham61]

I think the questioner was asking why the speakers are much closer together than they are from the listener.

[@CaveyMoth]

It's once again to improve the center image. The further apart speakers are, the more incoherent and diffuse the center image becomes. This is especially without toe-in.

[@BrotherNkosi]

@@CaveyMoth Not saying you are wrong, but the other side of that is a congested non relaxed sound when they are too close. This is fresh in my mind as I just bought a pair of " Perfect set 10's" by Tekton too close = cramped and small stage to far = what you said. Currently I am at a2 inch toe in but am going to try straight ahead.

[@CaveyMoth]

@@BrotherNkosi Yeahh, I like leaving plenty of space between my speakers so that there is actually room for imaging between them. In fact, I place them wider apart than their distance from me, and compensate with more toe-in. It makes the image "wrap around" more.

[@ThatGuy2042_]

The camera needs to be far back to get Paul and the speakers in shot. Where the camera is filming isn't necessarily where one would sit. Additionally, the fact that the baffles are so big hides the fact that the columns of tweeters are actually quite far apart.

[@zaoria123]

How to angle loudspeakers? This is kind of like asking what flavor of ice cream is best. It all depends on what sounds best to you. I have tried it Paul's way and for me and my last two pairs of speakers I much prefer toeing them in so that they are each pointed at a spot on the wall directly behind where I sit and listen. This gives me a soundstage with incredible focus and clarity. Paul is right for his purposes, I am right for mine. No one is wrong. I strongly suggest people try for themselves and find out what they prefer.

[@Harald_Reindl]

no, it depends on the speakers and the room - physics

[@kentonkirkpatrick5225]

I saw a pair of speakers like yours hanging on a wall in 1983. Radio station WFMT Classical Music in downtown Chicago had/has these about eight feet up, on the short wall, in a room with 20 foot ceilings. I believe it was a small recital hall in their studios (contained a concert grand also albeit not wall mounted). If you were ever thinking about another pair for surround sound! Thanks Paul...

[@TiqueO6]

Close in monitoring on "normal" studio monitors the toe-in seems to offer a cleaner and more stable imaging especially in the highs. When they're not angled the highs seems to wander a bit.

[@mikecampbell5856]

There is a pink noise channel on KZbin. I clicked on it and walked back and forth in front of my speakers. I was surprised that my speakers needed some toe in.

[@arsimahmetaj6272]

Excellent 👍

[@ericberger6966]

I think, Pablo refers to the short baseline between the speakers in relation to the large listener distance.

[@bobeekwok]

I wonder has Paul try switching the panels positions so that the line of twitters will be on the outside instead of in the inside as it is now? I guess I am after trying all sorts of things to see if the sound and imaging can be improved.

[@vidvidbiker]

There is no right or wrong - toe in, straight ahead or toe out and find what suits your system and room. One size (toe) does not fit all!

[@mrpositronia]

Experiment by listening to your speakers with different toe-in angles and then have them at the angle that sounds best to you. While you're doing that, you should experiment with spacing between the speakers. Further apart is a wider soundstage, but 'centre channel' is not as strong.

[@55stevieray]

When using Martin Logans, toe in is a must.

[@Hi-FiBBQ]

I admit I was skeptical after watching this video. I have a decent pair of Klipsch floorstanding speakers that I've had toed in to my listening position since I've owned them. I've always liked the sound but admit that great soundstage was intermittent at best. I chalked it up to great recordings. Decided I'd point both straight down my room to see if I gained anything. I'm actuality blown away at the results. Not only did I gain breadth and depth in the center, but my speakers have completely disappeared. Honestly, I would have bet real money against this result, which I still don't know how it's possible. Like I now have a new set of speakers that sound way better than the old pair. Thank you so much for this advice!

[@llevine6510]

You can try starting from no toe-in and gradually increase the angle. Most of the time a little bit of toe in will give you better center image without sacrificing much of the staging. It’s about finding the sweet spot

[@Hi-FiBBQ]

@@llevine6510 Thank you very much. I really like trying new things with my setup and I think I'll do this, a couple of inches at a time and see where it gets me.

[@stamosreal]

hello ps audio, i ve just discovered your channel. Is this an audio mod for my playstation? If so where can i buy it, thanks

[@gtric1466]

Since the tweeters are on the inside on the Infinity's it already present the center image. on a standard style speaker you only want to toe in till you lock in the center image. anymore then that and you'll decrease the soundstage.

[@techno_magnus9616]

Man, I wish my question was answered

[@danboy77]

But most speaker manufacturers recommend toeing in speakers to your listening position, rarely do they recommend no toe in only Dali do if I’m not mistaken.

[@googoo-gjoob]

what they 'recommend' is of less importance then the off-axis capabilities of the speaker. if they know their speaker has a limited o-a presentation, then they would be wise to recommend toe in. however, it is possible for their speaker to have a broad o-a capability yet they unnecessarily still recommend toe-in. so, in short, its capability/presentation matters more than their recommendation.

[@Harald_Reindl]

it depends on the room more than on the speaker

[@johnholmes912]

toe-in is not necessary if your speakers have good off axis performance( something that all good speakers possess)

[@graxjpg]

The silk domes on my Elacs have great off axis response. I still tow them in a little bit when I set them up for more of a near-field thing when I need to be critical or quiet.

[@Harald_Reindl]

it depends on the room and space to the side walls - 50% what you hear is your room unless you take money in your hands - the "good off axis performance" will bit you in your ass on the side walls

[@graxjpg]

@@Harald_Reindl definitely if your room has anything to say about it, tow in may or may not be necessary. Audio reproduction is such a complex thing.

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@graxjpg or invest half of the money for your highend-speakers in room treatment instead throw it out of the window, 10000$ invested in your room makes more difference than 20000$ in speakers you never hear as intended :-)

[@Harald_Reindl]

@Sblackfll so you are another poor clueless audiophile which believes you can trick physics and reflections by throwing money to speakers, amplifiers and in case you are one of the really dumb audiophiles on cables?

[@c52jrear]

Thank you…👌

[@stevenwhite2061]

Are those some of those acoustic plants?

[@Gregor7677]

My Tekton Double Impacts have good off axis response. I use no toe in at all. This after a lot of experimentation.

[@ChicagoBulls1984]

I've heard that for those of us who need to keep speakers very close to wall that toe in helps and reflects the rear sound outwards

[@Harald_Reindl]

it's mostly about SIDE reflections and distance to the listening positon - simple physics

[@swinde]

Back in the 1970s, the "off-axis" response of the tweeters was a major selling point from most speaker companies. I am not sure why that idea of toeing the speakers inward became a suggestion in recent years.

[@G3rain1]

Are those line source speakers from GR Research?

[@jimhamlin6551]

I have the Linn Majik 140 and they dont recommend toe in....they have a wide dispersion with a big sound stage

[@machavez00]

I have a pair of Bose 301 II speakers that do not require any toe in. The tweeters are angled to the center and side/rear and create the phantom center channel.

[@Harald_Reindl]

bose is that bad that it don't matter at all - seriously - get rid of that useless crap

[@machavez00]

@@Harald_Reindl ehh, I’ve had them for over thirty five years and they still sound as amazing as they did when I took them out of the box. They are not the 901’s that require a proprietary eq system to make them sound correct.

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@machavez00 they sound the same shit as 35 years ago - if bose is the solution i want my problem back! unless you heard good speakers you can't even qualify how bad they are - it's normal and how the brain works

[@sudd3660]

use a tone generator and set it to the highest frequency you can hear, if the speakers are facing too much away from you, you will not hear it anymore. at least this way you find your speaker limits in relations to your listening position.

[@markhunstone2747]

If i was standing between those monoliths, i would forget my words too! 😆😆

[@freepress8451]

Let's go to the source and how an engineer mixes, stereo imaging during mixing can use traditional panning - delay-based panning and spectral-based panning. As well as a multitude of temporal processing effects and variances in amplitude to establish depth. Your equipment may enhance the sound but correct speaker placement will reproduce the 90-degree frame that most mixes occupy, or certain elements in the 180-degree field.

[@garysmith8455]

Unfortunately, stereo imaging is NOT multichannel mixing and panning and overdubs. That would be a 'sound stage' created by the engineer in the control room. Stereo imaging on the other hand can only be produced when recording with only TWO channels (TRUE stereo) and in a live recording session, no mixing, no gizzmos and twiddling of knobs please.

[@filofilo8127]

Simply experiment with position not only with toe in but their location in relation to side and rear walls.

[@fixnreview]

Watching Paul

[@milkman100001]

my monitor audio's without a little toe in make the sound fuzzy. especially vocals.a little toe in and there tak sharp.

[@magicmulder]

No toe-in for the IRS because they’re too heavy to move. :D

[@D1N02]

So why are the tweeters in the inside of the IRS. Would putting them on the outside not give a wider sound stage?

[@mrpositronia]

the mid range ribbons would distort the sound of the tweeters if it was the other way round.

[@Harald_Reindl]

you can bet your ass that the designers of the speakers knew what they have done - you can't random place parts of a speaker without the big picture

[@distractionchannel4954]

...HAD to settle for my RS-3 B 🤣🔊🤣

[@36karpatoruski]

Same here!

[@distractionchannel4954]

STiLL one of the most SONiC speakers ever heard ❤️

[@36karpatoruski]

Bought in ‘85. They’re still very good, agreed. Had my woofer surrounds replaced in 2013 and crossovers recapped with mid and high controls de-oxited in 2014. I wish I changed the binding posts from pin connectors to spade at the same time. EMITS in great shape, never blown. Bass REALLY came to life when changed power amp from Carver m1.5t to Aragon 4004 Mk II, along with everything else too. I always wondered how much better they would have been with EMIMS instead of Polydome midranges.

[@distractionchannel4954]

My Godson destroyed the surrounds & emits @ his birthday party😤😂 McIntosh powered @ 1986💕

[@Mark-lq3sb]

Paul, have you heard Charlie Watts has passed away. He was 80 years old. Surly, you listened to the Rolling Stones back in the 1960's...

[@Mark-lq3sb]

In remembrance, I'm spinning live Stones, 'Get Your Ya Ya's Out' 1969 Madison Square Garden. On my DircertStream Memory Player. Charlie was "on it"....😁

[@DarkKnight-yc8nw]

Would love to work in your company :)

[@TylerStout]

I feel like always straight ahead is the wrong answer. I would say it really depends on the speaker and your goals. What if you're trying to get it so every seat in a theater room is as close as possible in sound quality having them pointed straight into the room means you might be sitting 40 degrees off axis of one speaker and 0 degrees off axis from the other where it would be better to be 20 degrees off axis for both. Then there's the speaker with different designs might have different requirements such as narrow dispersion or wide dispersion. Some speakers might be designed to work best with time intensity trading where you do aggressive toe in where others may not. That's why I think it really depends and toe in can also be a form of EQ as well since the more on axis you are the more treble you will be getting which would be a personal preference thing.

[@Harald_Reindl]

it depends on the speaker charateristics and much more important on your room - you need to take side wall reflections into your calculation because 50% of what you hear is your room and not your speakers not matter how much money you throw out of the window for your gear - most audiophiles don't realize that

[@artyfhartie2269]

I crawl around the room to find a sweet spot then I sit on it.

[@Harald_Reindl]

you can crawl where ever you want exept for bass and you won't find a sweet spot on any other place then in the middle of both speakers - the only thing you can cahnge is the distance between the speakers and the distance to the listening position combined with more or less toe in - near field takes the room more out of the game, too much toe in limits the sweet spot and in a shitty room with too less distance to the side wall too less toe in leads in more side wall reflections that all depends on the room and the speakers - simple phyiscs - no need to crwal around

[@artyfhartie2269]

@@Harald_Reindl Just a habit I picked up at work to get a raise.

[@martyjewell5683]

Aaugh!! Toeing in/out, tilting up/down????? Really well designed speaker systems should have wide dispersion, excellent imaging and not a sweet spot but a sweet "field" of sound. If you're dropping big bucks on speakers and you have to "fiddle" with toeing/tilting. Man, you got took. Fuhgeddaboudit.

[@siimpetser4746]

I like toe-out

[@johnsweda2999]

Of course you could play it on KZbin you got record company you have rights over the artists nothing stopping you! and there is royalty free!

[@TylerStout]

There's a difference between watching someone skydive in a video and doing it yourself. Same could be said for a roller coaster or listening to speakers on KZbin.

[@bubbleone6526]

Your huge speakers are in such a small room if you were to toe them wouldn’t the sweet spot be very tiny? I just don’t understand why you made a listing room so small? I’m sure those speakers could use more room, no? Anyone that could afford those speakers could surely afford a larger room.

[@mrpositronia]

He allows visitors to experience them. That room was custom built for those speakers, so I'm sure it sounds amazing.

[@ed4310]

@@mrpositronia I have been in that room and the sound and imaging is amazing.

[@bubbleone6526]

@@ed4310 I bet it is. Someday I’m going to hear them.

[@bubbleone6526]

@@mrpositronia I understand that, but I wanted his reasoning. They’re his speakers so he could build any room, any size so has to be a good reason.

[@ed4310]

@@bubbleone6526 Good question. My guess is that it was a compromise. This building houses manufacturing, engineering, sales, a warehouse, Octave Records, and research and develop. They probably made the room as big as they could make it considering all their other needs.

[@WineHouse33]

Well these type of channels are going to certainly have to figure out how to play music. Tremendous magnificence sound systems, and we never hear anything… There is a list of non-copyright music that can be played. Can’t play anything on KZbin shouldn’t be valid excuse anymore.

[@dandonna852]

Home theater? does a lot of toe in why

[@scottyo64]

My Klipsch sound better with no toe in. My Wharfedales sound better with a good amount of toe in. My Maggies a little bit. Just depends, different people have different tastes as well.

[@TylerStout]

Have you tried time intensity trading with your Klipsch speakers? Supposed to work well for narrow dispersion speakers like those typically are. Pretty much you'd be toeing them about 10-20 degrees past your main listening position and the benefit is an larger sweet spot where the center image doesn't collapse. How it works is that as you move left or right from the MLP you are getting closer (short time) to the speaker that you'll be sitting farthest off axis of (low intensity) and the other speaker you will be farther from (high time) but will be more on axis to (high intensity) and the two of them are supposed to balance out.

[@alex-wk7mq]

these speakers make u look really small 😃👍

[@NoEgg4u]

The amount of tow-in varies by each speaker, even within the same manufacturer. If you buy speakers from a department store, then you are probably on your own -- meaning -- there will probably not be a manual that goes over the ideal set-up of your speakers. Or the manual might have been written by who knows who. Mass produced speakers might not have the designers writing that section of the manual. If you buy quality speakers from Wilson, Vandersteen, Magico, Ravel, etc, then go by the recommendation of the manufacturer, or the advice of the store personnel from where you purchased the speakers. And the above is only a good starting point. I measured my speakers according to the manufacturer's set-up guide, including the use of a laser pointer that was supposed to aim the speakers with precision. I ended up moving my speakers to tilt slightly more upwards, and with slightly more tow-in. I found that that made the sweet spot a bit sweeter. My ears did not agree with the laser. The laser got me very close, however. In this video, Paul mentioned that his speakers are set-up for three listening positions. I was waiting to hear whether or not he would tow-in his speakers if his goal was to obtain the best possible imaging from a single seat. I really wonder how good those Infinity IRS's sound. I have heard some flagship, high-end speakers that sounded magical. I would love to compare them to Paul's stereo. But I am not sure what I would say if they were not as good (you can't go by their looks). Alas, I will probably never be in Colorado, so I will never hear them. :-(

[@livinaftermidnight9651]

If I have to "toe in" my speakers to get the correct sound stage, I have an equipment issue. My system isn't the best in the world but my stage is excellent without angling my speakers.

[@sudd3660]

soundstage is one thing, but many speakers have beaming frequencies, if you sit off axis you can lose some frequencies. have you done some testing to confirm you are not affected?

[@AllboroLCD]

It aint the WORST thing in the world if your particular set of speakers needs a lil toe-in to open the sound stage up a little better. I have sets designed both ways, I personally dont see the fuss. Just is what it is. Shit, even the middle shelf Infinity stuff from the 80s needed a lil toe.