How to best achieve Christian unity (a conversation with Dr. Gavin Ortlund)

[@He_roy]

Hello I am a newly Christian person who just recently converted and it was one of the best decisions of my life.

[@LuKe-xj3uj]

god bless you! you made right decision

[@clouds-rb9xt]

May I reccomend the apologetics channels Testify and InspiringPhilosophy? These are good to help get a good grasp on some things and help prove the historicity. I'd also reccomend Counsel of Trent, although it has a catholic bent, it's still a good resource for some things. God bless!

[@calebneff5777]

Welcome to the family!

[@vinniciuselion4544]

It was, actually, the best one.

[@evan7391]

I am a new Christian as well. God bless and keep you!

[@Dagfari]

My grandmother stayed in the United Church of Canada until the day she went to live in Christ in 2005. You mentioned that every split recently has been the Conservatives leaving the church. She would remark many times through the 1990s and 2000s that the reason she was staying in such an apostate church was because "SOMEONE has to show Christ in that place." You're doing good work by starting your reconquista. In fact it is this idea of reclaiming the apostate churches that's making me think seriously about my choice to join the Orthodox Church.

[@mynameis......23]

Why I'm not a catholic(yt) I'm more blessed than mary Proof=Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Someone will go 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. All Believer of JESUS CHRIST are Royal Priest 1 Peter 2:5,9. Revelation 1:6 Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? Lord did gave the keys of death and hades to Apostles. But after their death, only Lord Jesus has the keys of death and hades Revelation 1:18 _ Lord Jesus Christ died Once for all, re-sacrifice Him is putting Him to shame. Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:10,12,14; 9:26,28; 9:12; 1 Peter 3:18; Romans 6:10 - Christ is The Head of Church not peter Eph5:23, 1:22; Col 1:18 CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. Colossians 1:19-20 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. _ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad. A verse against the position of pope, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. _ When a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Same in Mark 3:35 John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all Gal 4:21-26. _ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles Even old Old Testament says Christ intercedes for us Isaiah 53:12 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. _ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit) 10)King Soloman messed up 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians. 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 15) Paul and Barnabas both had a sharp disagreement on John Mark( Acts 15:36-41). And remember that both were Apostles filled with Holy Spirit. 16) Church in Revelation 2:1-6 Lord Jesus Himself said to the church of Ephesus that "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" but guess what that church still had problems and Lord also pointed that out "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love......" So as you can see Churches can do Biblical and unbiblical things at the some time. _ Breaking the 10 commandments by having statues, carved images, idols, changing the Lord's Sabbath to sunday.

[@jennacuna3674]

Thank you for this video. Gavin Ortlund is a huge reason why I’ve become evangelical Baptist! He provides great points and intellectual insight in doctrines

[@jecolibri1803]

What were you before ?

[@aleksey6151]

Not the collab I expected but definitely the one I needed!!

[@Sebman1113]

I’ve been growing up as a Christian but I have to thank you Redeemed Zoomer for opening my mind to further Christian theology. I grew up as a Lutheran in Minnesota but I’ve been more interested recently in my religious faith and denominational tradition as well as religious influence in society as a whole. I know you say ELCA is low priority in Operation reconquesta but it’s highly rooted in upper Midwest culture and I don’t believe it’s gone like the UCC. I’d like to hear your input.

[@zachsmith8916]

In a lot of ways I think the LCMS is just as historically rooted whilst also maintaining institutional power. I’m not a Lutheran but personally if I was a Lutheran I’d throw my hat in with them.

[@chemnitzfan654]

You could try to be a part of the group that Reforms the ELCA, but that will be very difficult. It might be a good option to leave and become LCMS or WELS.

[@theproceedings4050]

The best unification that could happen for the Lutheran church right now is for all of the conservative churches to join together, along with conservative ELCA churches. We need to become the mainline, being strong in our conviction, but allowing for some difference. The conservation of the Gospel can still take many forms. We can argue about what is most beneficial afterward, and because we share the Gospel, any answers we come up with can reasonably coexist.

[@ehm7651]

​@@theproceedings4050Hi! Lutheran from Germany here. Hope you don't mind me asking what the difference between those churches would be? God be with you!

[@lvfc_4786]

AFAIK unlike the other mainline protestants, ELCA split from the LCMS as a result of Seminex, not the other way around (and even the latter has problems with progressive subversion), so your efforts should I think be focused on Synod. Personally I am a Latvian Lutheran and thus blessed with an orthodox mainline. From the lutheran standpoint I can reccommend you Stone Choir

[@maxpower2587]

Congratulats Zoomer! You just said in your last video that you wanted to speak with Dr Gavin. So glad to see you have a conversation and get along so well! Hope you guys stay in contact!

[@serafimbarbu7711]

Hi, Orthodox pall here. Just wanted to say. I appreciate really much your work. Hope you can help saving the churches from the U.S. Or at least… what’s left of them.

[@robertguidry2168]

You should start a Kingdom Craft SMP and Have Dr. Ortlund and others playing minecraft with you. That would be fun to watch.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I already am going to open the KingdomCraft SMP to the public and anyone who wishes to join can

[@MrStormNation]

God forbid a Minecraft Spanish inquisition

[@TheMJfromTN]

​@@MrStormNation No one will expect it.

[@DrownedinDesigner]

My 2 favorite Protestant in one video? This must be a dream.

[@TheScholarlyBaptist]

Are you catholic?

[@jacobmyhre3782]

The point made by Dr. Ortlund at 26:00 is excellent. Each different denomination or church may be better or worse at some things and should seek to learn and improve with other churches and denominations. Love it.

[@jpallmann]

Recently started taking my faith genuinely seriously. I grew up in the Church (non-denom/bap). Earlier this year had some *strong* convictions and finally had an actual change in heart. Good channel, appreciate your insights and outlooks from some different views than my own!

[@nathanwood6707]

I never smashed a notification so fast in my life.

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

I’m obsessed with this channel. I binge and learn. ✡️✝️

[@jacobwoods6153]

29:45 Gavin is spot on. The mainline denoms are done... They've given into the society.

[@jacobklug1691]

Loved this as an estranged confessional Lutheran

[@coltonoliver1033]

What an incredible interview with very thoughtful questions and discourse. I have grown to appreciate both of your work on KZbin, especially your thoughts on various Christian traditions. Praise God for your ministries! Thanks again :)

[@Seraph-1517]

I absolutely love Dr. Ortlund's admiration as a Baptist for the other traditions within the tent of Protestantism, I share this as a Particular Baptist.

[@user-kc7hc5ur2c]

Personally, I believe that heterodox shlould mean of different liturgical and cultural backround. Theologically, the church needs to have a catholic, orthodox and apostolic doctrine. The criteria you discuss are the basis of Christianity truly. But, there needs to be a broad theological and doctrinal discussion, so as to believe and worship with the same doctrine, the church of Christ. Historically, the creeds did exactly that, they put the foundations of what we believe as orthodox and not misleadinng - heretical. Great video as always, may Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on both of you.

[@umrapazai7484]

Regardless if I am part of a different denomination or have different views regarding christian faith when it comes you or a third party, christians are united under Christ, and nothing human, like institutions or traditions can separate us, because He united us first. We will all be neighbors in the New Jerusalem. I know we have our differences but we must not lose focus of this fact, because I think that this fact must guide our relationship to other christians most of all. We might think differently but we are all brothers here. I love you all and God bless.

[@TheRealQuartKnee]

I love the interviews you have been doing! Keep them coming, this one with Dr. Ortlund was especially interesting :)

[@LeeRoyJenkz]

Bro u doing these interviews is a great idea. Please keep it up. Thank you

[@TyrekeCorrea]

We just have to use our brains to do honor to what we observe with our minds and our senses.

[@Largecow_Moobeast]

I'm Catholic, My whole family has been for generations as far as anyone in the family knows. The liturgical itemization you can do with beliefs of these churches I think is interesting (hence why I watch your channel it's entertaining), but the actual reality is I'm Christian, I believe in the god and creed that makes sense to me and it is my family's tradition. There isn't anything that could change that for me, and I neither seek improvement with other denominations nor expect other denominations to see things the way I do or switch to my church. Honest to goodness Christian is good enough in the modern times we live in, lord knows it's rare enough for someone to believe in god or to be religious out there these days. My thought with the denominations is "pick one" Pray, study, lead by example in your community. This is more important than I'm Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox, etc for preferred interpretation of x,y, and z in the church.

[@SaintlySaavy]

Pick one and pray and study how to live and what are the commandments of Jesus

[@TheChuckbland]

"...a lot of the reason why Protestantism is so fractured is this radical individualism where people are more cocerned about being in an environment where they are as comfortable as possible rather than striving for the kingdom overall..." Excellent observation which goes beyond the issue of protestantism to how many modern churches fall short pf their purpose in God's Kingdom.

[@QuestingTruck]

I was looking for a specific passage that always stuck with me that seemed to jive with your discussion. I found it as Matthew 18:19 but really reading over the rest of the chapter the whole thing seems relevant to how Christians should comport ourselves in discussion. I think conversation is good and probably necessary. I really liked your Star Wars analogy, possibly because I would be one of those guys getting into the lore. Having those discussions about Jesus and the Church should be just as important and I think something you and a lot of us have discovered is that there are a lot of us out here who want to 'geek out' about this stuff. those discussions are important and can be very fruitful if done together in the name of Jesus. I believe the reason we tend not to, at least for me, is there never seemed an appropriate place to have those conversations. For my part I worry that such discussions are generally getting into the weeds as they are conversations Christians have with one another and not really something non Christians can really engage with. To use your Star Wars Analogy its like coming up to someone who has never seen Star Wars and start talking about the origin of Han Solos lucky dice. I'm not saying or implying we shouldn't have the discussions. I think they are important and I also think they can be productive if handled correctly. I just don't want to be some ones stumbling block. With regard to the whole liberal vs Conservative debate I feel like I'm more or less aligned with your thoughts. Jesus tells us to be a light to the world and the salt of the earth. Non Christians should look at us and see Christ through us. I think that is why churches are constantly trying to reform themselves into something modern and hip but in that I think just conforming to be more like the world is diluting the light. Sometimes I feel like churches get caught up in trying to attract people that they forget to be a beacon to attract people. If that makes any sense. Jesus should be the draw. Sorry for the length of the post. I got a bit rambley I guess and started geeking out.

[@daithimcbuan5235]

In Europe, the mainline Anglican and Lutheran (Nordic and Baltic ones anyway, not the German ones) churches have full altar and pulpit communion. The Anglicans have pre-existing altar & pulpit communion with the Methodists, and are also working on communion with the Presbyterians (Anglicans have a Calvanistic Eucharistic theology, which helps). I think that this sort of thing is the way forward to christian unity, rather than everyone being under the same organisation. I also applaud your plans to rescue the mainline churches. I'm a member of the mainline Lutheran church in Norway, which has become incredibly woke, but there are still plenty of conservative priests and congregations left in the church (and conservative theology is still allowed... they've decided to allow 'both views' as it were, though they no longer tolerate resistance to female ordination, despite many lay people demanding male priests at family funerals).

[@AugustJ.k.Nilsen]

Just out of curiosity, how is the attendance now in the church, I always got the impression that the majority went moreso because of tradition and growing up with the church belonging to the state, rather than actually living as Christian? I'm guessing it is a skewed view and absolutely has som bias based on personal experience with those that attend locally here, but curious nonetheless to gain a different perspective. I myself belong to the pentecostal Church in Norway. Grew up in it, left it and have now returned for full.

[@daithimcbuan5235]

@@AugustJ.k.Nilsen I live in Norway, and yeah, the Church of Norway is mostly used as 'part of the culture', for baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals, with maybe 20-30 people attending on a normal Sunday if there isn't a baptism. Most people do seem merely to be 'culturally Christian'. Those that do attend -every- Sunday are the real Christians, and generally more conservative than the Bishops. In Ireland and the U.K. attendance on normal Sundays is considerably higher, and a lot more people are believing and practicing Christians compared to Norway.

[@joelrichardson6052]

Cool interview man!! Always wondered about these things and you guys communicate complicated things so clearly!

[@christianusacross5084]

Please there should be Protestant unity ✝️

[@thearmoredchimp129]

Love the channel and i posted the first Comment

[@TheScholarlyBaptist]

Gavin Ortland cooks in PCA segment

[@CliffCardi]

If you could interview Dr. Ryan Reeves, former dean of the Gordon-Conwell seminary, that would be great. I really respect him and his courses on theology and church history.

[@Rome_77]

Rome seems like the destination for any kind of realistic restoration of an ecumenical mere Christendom. Jumping off the barque of Peter is the first mistake.

[@elysewilliams5129]

Iconic duo 🔥

[@JesusRodriguez-gu1wv]

So I get worried because doesn't Paul say that if one comes to you with a false gospel let him be anathema which sounds like a reason to be split. But I get what these guys say as well but I guess is isn't having the gospel a split issue.

[@Adrastus_]

look forward to listening to this in full but I also like the minecraft background videos

[@QuestingTruck]

Dr Ortland kinda resembles Cody Rhodes :D Thanks for introducing me to him and his channel.

[@noahbarger1]

this is very awesome

[@troyelisahughes1505]

10:55 I draw the line at the first two commandments "To the best of my understanding." All other commandments hang on the first two. What do they have in common they tell you to love. Love is some thing I will never fully comprehend or be able to put into action perfectly. Being a father has shown me that. Every situation is different and you have to take different approaches. Some people need encouragement even as they walk through sin, others you need to take a hard stance against. Where I draw the line is allowing sin to continue or trying to justify sin. I should define sin as I understand it. Our bodies, the world, and our environment was built with a purpose and to function in a specific way. If I was to use something for an unintended purpose I would consider that sin. Like taking my car to cut down trees or using eggs for a hammer. The funny thing is I think God already put the punishment for doing these sins in the world already. Just look at the data.

[@BedtimeBen]

An example of a liberal group splitting would be Seminex being expelled from LCMS.

[@EjnarRaidriar]

Oh, thanks for a new term - "heterodoxy". That simplifies some explanations of why we are so different yet the same.

[@laurenr02]

Redeemed Zoomer doesn’t miss

[@RGabeDavis]

I don’t think we need one institution but a world wide council that each branch can be tied to

[@evren.nikolaos]

Some thoughts I had while watching this video. 1.) The Scriptural texts Gavin brings forth to support his ecclesiology interestingly enough don't really have anything to do with the Church as such. Orthodox Christians or Christians who otherwise hold to the traditional Christian understanding of the visible Church don't deny that the Holy Spirit acts outside the Church. His example of how demons can't cast out demons does no work because no one is saying that Protestants are all demon possessed or evil. You can truly experience the work of God in your life and still not be in communion with the Church, otherwise no one would be guided to join the Church from the outside. Gavin also insists that his view doesn't imply some kind of universalism but I really don't see how he avoids it without some special pleading. Are non-Christians capable of loving others and being genuinely kind and self-sacrificial towards others? Yes. Are those things somehow not the work of God? I don't see how they couldn't be if God is love. Are they part of the Church? Gavin would say no, but again it feels somewhat arbitrary on his framework. 2.) The Reformers themselves did not agree on how to discern the true visible church. Gavin's appeal to the Word and Sacrament and the preaching of the Gospel kind of begs the question: what Gospel are you preaching? A true one or a false one? Are you administering the Sacrament rightly? Even within Protestantism (say, between Lutherans and the Reformed) there isn't a unanimous consensus on what rightly administering the Sacrament is or even what the Sacrament is. 3.) Appealing to the Trinity as an issue that divides the Christians from non-Christians is fine as far as it goes, but even with that you run into problems with the Filioque. Strictly speaking the Orthodox think Catholics and confessional Protestants have a false doctrine of God. You can disagree with that if you want, but it goes to show that just appealing to the belief in the Trinity or right Christology as if everyone believes the same things on those issues doesn't work. I find this especially noteworthy given Gavin's comments on the necessity of believing in Christ's human soul during his debate with Trent Horn. 4.) The reason why Orthodox Christianity or Catholicism are more appealing to people than Protestantism is that when you accept the idea that on all matters of doctrine no Church institution can bind the conscience of the individual with any ultimate authority as confessional Protestants do, there's no meaningful way to discern what the faith delivered to the saints actually is. Confessional Protestants will appeal to creeds or confessions or other aspects of the "Protestant tradition," but since those documents are all ultimately revisable and not understood to be infallible in any way, your faith simply becomes a construction project. On Protestant principles the fallible conscience of the individual is ultimately still the final arbiter of truth and that makes it impossible for Protestants of varying denominations to have any meaningful unity, which is why the very definition of Christian unity has to be end up being revised in order to accommodate this problem. RZ's point about how Protestants suffer from "radical individualism" is exactly my point, the issue though is that this individualistic approach (the doctrine of the right to private judgement) is a major constituent of Sola Scriptura. This is also why on Protestant principles, the liberal churches RZ is concerned about can't really de facto be removed from the Church. You can disagree with their beliefs of course, but there's not really a good reason on Protestant principles why the PCUSA or the TEC's stances on, say, sexuality and marriage aren't also perfectly valid exercises in semper reformanda.

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

So then, in your opinion - was there any room for a Reformation to happen? How should the reformers have proceeded? And are there some things that are not subject to reformation? I don't think "Sola Scriptura" has to entail a right to private judgement -- only that the scriptures supercede anything that isn't scripture. So the traditions only become a problem if they conflict with scripture. But how do you decide if it conflicts with scripture? To me, the Catholic/Orthodox insistence that "it doesn't" is unsatisfying. A good Protestant sees his church as stripping away accretions and getting back to the Apostolic form of Christianity. I agree with you that this is not really the result of the Protestant reformation, but I think I would disagree with you in thinking that the Catholic/Orthodox churches have a lot of baggage, too. I don't think there's a perfect church institution, but I think all of us, from all of our different faith traditions, will be united under the lordship of Christ under persecution. Sometimes I wish we would experience more hardship if it force us to get along (although I'm thankful that it doesn't happen)... just the other day I was reading about a Protestant Dutch man who illegally smuggled Bibles into Ukraine and Russia during the Soviet times, mostly to Orthodox Christians.

[@JoeThePresbapterian]

Protestantism is not a denomination. It is the the True Catholic Church which, I say this with a true grief, has been separated institutionally at some denominations. However, it does not mean they cease to be the Church. Perhaps a more fair comparison can be done by comparing Protestantism vs. Ecclesialism. Or to be more specific, we can also go denomination A vs. denomination B. For instance, Anglicanism/Anglo-catholicism vs. Roman Catholicism... Eastern Orthodoxy vs. Reformed Orthodoxy... Oriental Orthodoxy vs. Baptists... Church of the East vs. Lutheranism... etc. Perhaps, we also need to distinguish "the preaching of the unadulterated Gospel" from "the preaching of the Gospel". Protestants won't say that the Ecclesialists do not have the Gospel, but rather that they do not teach it correctly in its fulness.

[@evren.nikolaos]

@@JoeThePresbapterian I’m aware that Protestantism writ large is not a denomination, which is why I pointed out differences between groups like the Reformed and the Lutherans. My aim was simply to address issues I see that exist across the spectrum of Protestant groups. I don’t believe Protestantism is the Catholic Church

[@lvfc_4786]

On the first point - at least Lutheran doctrine follows Christ when he says in Matthew 12:10 - either with me or against me. To the pagan even their good works are sins - God doesn't want mere prisoners or servants - He wants people He can have a relationship with - it is written after all in Matthew 13:12, Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. (I know Catholics disagree, but this is part of Sola Fide) I don't think he means that all good people are of the Church - rather that is a secondary to the obvious ala those that say they are ostensibly Christian. On the 4th point - how is ultimately Catholic/Orthodox tradition that different beyond them saying it is infallible? Even St. Peter is not infallible post Pentecost according to the Bible (see Galatians 2 also in Works) in regards to the "do you have to be Jewish" question. Yes, he resolved to correctness in the end, but that is Peter the apostle. I am not saying that the Church fathers were not great or that they are to be thrown out(and whoever does that is in error), but the way Orthodox and Catholics approach tradition has a serious problem of binding our ability to correct their errors. We and they, though saints through Christ do remain sinners because of the flesh, which includes the mind as well. Because of this the assembly can be fallible too - and wrestled with politics. I think the past two centuries have to have shown the problems of parliamentary style systems. Furthermore, as to seeing what the faith delivered to the saints is plainly - read the Epistles, they are rather clear theologically, not historical, metaphorical or prophetic. Now the argument I could see is that I've destroyed Sola Scriptura by saying that even the Apostles are fallible. However, we have to understand the immense difficulty in preserving those writings in the dread days of the high and late Roman Empire- if they were not inspired, God would have simply let them disappear into history, or left as forgotten eccentricities, like the Gospel of Thomas and the gnostic texts, not be so propagated that even most atheists in the west have a copy somewhere.

[@jacobwoods6153]

@LVFC _ That example of Peter in Galatians is actually a great example of not understanding what Catholicism means by infallibility! Lol. He wasn't promulgating any kind of teaching lol. This was a matter of him not living up to the teaching that HE promulgated. That is completely distinct from Peter actively binding the Church into heresy haha. He made a prudential error in not sitting with the Gentiles out of fear of what the Jewish party would think of him... That has nothing to do with infallibility.

[@MrMonchis04]

Love that your channel is growing.. Can't wait to see you in catholic channels

[@jeremybullen655]

Great video. If I could pose a question to you, what do you think makes the seminaries worth "remaining" over? Every seminary accepts students from outside their communion, and most of the oldest seminaries are de-affiliated to become interdenominational (especially in my denomination, the UCC). Given that theological schools are usually independently governed and managed, should that really be a factor that keeps an individual or a congregation inside the mainline? Consider the recent split in american methodism, where the conservative/evangelicals won the right to retain the denominational identity and yet are choosing to start the new denomination. To them it seems to better fit their mission to start new with a more decentralized polity. I can only think of SBTS as a success story of a seminary which was recovered from liberalism, but the SBC is a unique case as really the only evangelical and historic mainline denomination. They won this case by first having the conservative resurgence in the denomination so that they could place Al Mohler in charge of the seminary. In my own case I'm ministering in a mainline church and studying with an evangelical seminary, with the happy support of my mainline leadership. Again, great video. Keep it up.

[@rossslaughter5197]

The conservatives tend to leave because the denomination (PCUSA) owns the building. If the conservatives are the minority, we are overpowered. We don’t have a chance. We either stay in and tough it out (through prayer and faithfulness), or we rent a hall and regroup.

[@gigahorse1475]

Maybe Baptists should get together and have their own version of the “Reconquista,” where we learn about it tradition, embrace science, and influence the institutions rather than running away.

[@Timo0469]

thanks

[@zachsmith8916]

I will point out that SBTS goes back to 1859 and is very confessional and orthodox. So I think that Baptists didn’t quite give up our institutions at least in the South.

[@thomasc9036]

It is wrong to say Mainline Protestants do not have the "passion for influencing the culture". They were the ones who drove the culture through social gospels. The reason you can't see the passion is that the culture already moved to their side.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

that's why I say evangelicals could influence the culture just as strongly if they retook the mainline

[@thomasc9036]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 I am referring to your point about the Mainline learning from evangelicals on influencing the culture. The Mainline became what it is now because its main focus was influencing cultural issues instead of biblical orthodoxy. J. Gresham Machen was denied the professorship in Princeton because he would NOT support Prohibition. PCUSA, UMC, and Episcopalians wanted to push Prohibition to keep America as a Christian nation. It's not correct to say that the Mainline does not try to influence the culture. You just don't notice it because the culture already is shaped by them, so they don't need to push. All they need to do is keep the status quo...that's why there is no difference between secular America and Mainline.

[@umrapazai7484]

why is the culture of the world is so important to you guys? Why aren't you content with spreading the good news of Jesus? Don't wish for more than that, your treasure lies in Jesus, not in the culture nor anything else in this world! My dear brothers in Him, Turn your hearts towards God, away from here!

[@thomasc9036]

@@umrapazai7484 We declare Jesus as the Lord and Savior. He is the Lord of all including the earth. This world belongs to Christ. Jesus sent us into the world. It is a grave error for Christians to stay away from the culture and world.

[@umrapazai7484]

​@@thomasc9036 No, brother! This is literally the opposite of what the Bible teaches us! God calls every Christian to set themselves apart from the world in order to honor God with their lives (2 Timothy 2:21; 1 Peter 2:9) God sanctifies people from their sins and sets them apart from the world to serve Him alone (Romans 6:5-14) Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” The mission that God gave his disciples was to spread the good news. Crusade for "culture" is not in the plans of Jesus, you can't find any evidence for this in the Bible at all, but you can find much against it! The Bible says that we are saints, separated from the world And as you said it yourself, everything belongs to Him, including culture and ourselves! And what does He tell us to do? War? no! Loving Him with all our heart and soul and the neighbor as ourselves. No greater commandmant than this. This is what the body of Christ should act upon. It must always stem from this, because this is what Christ wants us to do! Turn you heart away from something as feeble, insignificant and finite as the cultural war, brother! Turn your attention to God and your neighbor! Repent, I beg you!

[@Billiamo7]

btw the link to his channel is broken and the link to the video is set to a certain time in case you didn't know :) great content

[@Jonathan-tw4xm]

I would love a breakdown between the differences of baptist and methodist

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

This is what this whole guys channel is. Go dig. Its there

[@thisiswheezie]

Hi bro, this was really interesting. But i had the feeling that Dr Ortlund had a hard time keeping up with your lines of thought cos they divulge a little too much. I think it would have been helpful to outline an elevator pitch and maybe 3 main points, and then to go really deep into it, rather than the bajillion points that yall ADHDed through.

[@Sam-pm7lo]

Babe wake up Redeemed Zoomer dropped a new video!!

[@thomasc9036]

BTW, in SBC, it was liberal who took the highway instead of conservatives. Sadly, that's the ONLY one that I know of.

[@Goingwithafakehandlehere]

I love this convo. Can make it 10 seconds long by saying "adhere to sola scriptura"

[@sharkinator7819]

Here’s a question explaining why I don’t believe in sola scritura, “what makes your specific interpretation right land how would you know?”

[@Goingwithafakehandlehere]

@@sharkinator7819 ask about a specific doctrine. I follow the Acts 17:11 path: "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." God did not make the Bible unobtainable for people, quite the opposite. You need the faith of a child to be saved, so why would understanding scripture be beyond our grasp? I don't like gnostics. I don't like secret knowledge. I don't like some usurping bureaucrat being the only person who can correctly understand God's word. If you have a better scriptural case for why I am wrong about a specific doctrine, then make it and sharpen me as iron sharpens iron. But leaving interpretation ONLY to leaders is not what the Bible instructs. Go back to Acts 17:11. Accepted The Word with all eagerness and checked the scriptures to see if those things are so. We are PERSONALLY responsible for making sure what we are taught lines up with scripture. That seems to be a direct instruction in scripture and runs counter to the idea that some Vicar has exclusive rights to interpretation. That's nonsense for which I see no biblical case, just self assumed authority

[@Goingwithafakehandlehere]

@@sharkinator7819 there's also 2nd Timothy 3:16 which essentially eliminates the anti sola scriptura argument: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." That seems to say all you need is the Word

[@Kyrana4102]

Really good interview you did there, redeemed zoomer!

[@noahaustin4954]

I would say that most of the denominational splits have been conservatives splitting from mainline but there are examples of the opposite. For example, the alliance of baptists and the CBF splitting from the Southern Baptists. I don’t know how recent Redeemed Zoomer meant though

[@catfinity8799]

Imagine if, in every major city, an entire evangelical church went to their local mainline churches.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

I did a video related to this topic titled Conservative Reformation.

[@Northernguy_alaska]

You should do a video with Orthodox meme squad.

[@BedtimeBen]

26:39 this reminds me of a Danish movie called Ordet, is recommend it .

[@RegularCody]

Christian Unity achieved via The Papacy Reconquering Europe

[@chocolateneko9912]

That would be awful Brother. The Papacy think Muslims and Christians are the same, plus they accept Darwinism and macro-evolution. Best to stick with Orthodoxy.

[@Logan912]

Yeah because the crusades went so well the first few times…

[@daliborbenes5025]

As a Hussite, I just say; Bring it on!

[@no8592]

​@@Logan912 They did. They reached their goals on keeping Europe safe from invaders and retook Jerusalem. Northern crusades also.

[@gavinrunner5279]

@@chocolateneko9912 bro are you a bot. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Last I checked the papacy led the crusades…

[@prolifefilm8127]

Can you expect unity without authority? Does love mean tolerance? Or does real love limit tolerance?

[@jimluebke3869]

"Evangelization is domineering" Do you believe that the religion you have is a gift worth giving to others or not?

[@harrygarris6921]

Of course it is, but you also need a plan for how to help them continue in their faith once you get them in the door. You can't abandon theological teaching and discipleship for the sake of evangelism, otherwise people aren't spiritually fed and they abandon their faith. This is the main criticism of the evangelical movement, and some evangelical churches do a better job than others at helping converts grown in their faith to be fair.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@harrygarris6921 I'm curious as to whether it would be useful for evangelical mega-churches to have some pathway to smaller communities with more serious theology. I've heard this approach denigrated as "sheep-stealing", and getting a mega-church pastor to be cool with it might be a challenge, but it would be worth exploring.

[@harrygarris6921]

@@jimluebke3869 yeah I think it's a great idea, but it would be hard to pull off given that you'd be convincing a church to sacrifice some of its financial support and also just the hit to the ego for the lead pastor.

[@JoachimSchwerkelburg-mo3ey]

0:27- I spot a German Empire flag

[@mynameis......23]

The PCA 28:09

[@j.victor]

I'm feeling bad now because I give the "666" like in your video.... ;-;

[@christianusacross5084]

There should be new Protestant movements and denominations look at the list of Protestant reformers on the internet start new movements and denominations

[@j.prt.979]

“Why is it always conservatives splitting off instead of liberals?” I don’t think it’s because of the liberal ethos of inclusivity. I think it’s because wolves are not afraid of sheep. If shepherds don’t do their duty, the wolves will always either eat the sheep or scare them away.

[@stevenyoung3752]

After spending the time to read the title I have a thought provoking answer to provide, submit to Rome.

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

Is this a different convo than the one on Gavin's channel?

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

nope

[@hippios]

im sorry but how are high and low churches the same in their teaching? there are many fundamental differences between us.

[@1NOTTOOOLD]

There will be a one world church during the time of the Tribulation! The true church, God Created church, are those who are born of God! Born of the Spirit and the Word. “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:13

[@thewaffler12]

You should have a converation with trent horn!

[@RL-vv7or]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on New Covenant Theology.

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

👎

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

Is that replacement theology? Anti Jew stuff, gosh

[@RL-vv7or]

@@Abcdefghijajajaja It isn't anti anything. It's the New Covenant. Dispensationalism is the theology that's unbiblical.

[@Interns-Eternal-Empire]

baptist preaher ? i go to a baptist church in corsham

[@WORDversesWORLD]

Yeah just what the pope got a few years back, but understand your unity is with the world.

[@jmdsservantofgod8405]

Jesus did not pray for unity…. He prayed we would all be one! One! Not 2 or 3 or 10 or 100! One! One is one!

[@dustinneely]

Nestorian ecclesiology.

[@jacobwoods6153]

And Nestorian Mariology (denying Mary as Theotokos) which inevitably leads to Nestorian Christology if you're consistent.

[@paulcoffman9841]

Denominations show sign of disunity of mankind .

[@Colossians2Ministries]

I don’t get your obsession with old cathedrals. There are Christian’s in 3rd world countries meeting in huts. That to me is beautiful. I know of churches that started out as Bible studies in homes. The church is not defined by a building.

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

The history on the walls. Relax

[@sgjdavidson3907]

44:54 😂😂😂😂

[@snackpup]

this "baptist" believes in sacraments... Antichrist Hebrews 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”

[@rexruther4864]

Ecumenicism is rejection of dogmatism

[@chocolateneko9912]

Solve the division? Just unite the Churches under the original Orthodox Catholic Church. ♥️☦️

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

I would honestly consider it, but the two hardest things for me to get over are 1) their insistence on exclusivity and 2) the icon thing. Really it's the icons. I can't see it as anything other than idolatry, and that's the problem most Protestants will have. Same with the prayers to saints and Mary I guess (although the arguments in favor are much, much better).

[@harrygarris6921]

@@josephbrandenburg4373 I felt that way for a long time too until I did a deep dive into the history of icons. I'll admit, it's really hard for western people to understand the icon thing because we were all raised with the idea that form and physical attributes are what point to ontology, and a painted image of a saint kinda looks like it could fall into the same category as a grave image of a false god. But what helped me "get" icons was coming to the understanding that for early Christians pre-scientific method, ontology wasn't defined by form it was defined by function. And what an icon "does" functionally is very different than what a pagan idol did. An icon is a symbol of a spiritual reality, whereas a idol is making a device to attempt to cause a desired outcome to manifest from the spiritual into the physical world.

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

@@harrygarris6921 I'm not convinced by those arguments though. I've heard many variations of this idea and it doesn't convince me. I don't think God forbid the "ontology", he forbid the graven image - not what the image does, but what it is. I can't get past that. I'm sure you probably disagree with me - and please understand that I am not calling you an idol-worshipper. But if I were to prostrate myself before an icon _I_ would be. I wish the "Apostolic" churches had gatherings or liturgies that were designed for people like me, who are willing to accept all of the "common Christian" stuff but can't stomach the stuff that feels weird. Let's say it's my own problem, not the churches -- still, is icon veneration or praying to Mary necessary for salvation? Why not make a small concession and save more souls? Would such a liturgy be inappropriate or unacceptable?

[@harrygarris6921]

@@josephbrandenburg4373 I don't really know how to get around the fact that divine liturgy "feels weird". I think that just has to do with what's viewed as normal in modern western culture. For the past 1900 years liturgy was how church was done, even in protestant churches. All of the contemporary service stuff is brand new and was invented in just the past 100 years. But as far as being "obligated" to venerate icons, that's rarely ever the case. If you ever want to attend a divine liturgy, there are definitely going to be people around you venerating icons, but it's not compulsory. The only thing that's a part of the service that involves icons is when the priest censes the icons with incense. That might look/sound weird but it is biblical, incense in the Orthodox church is the physical representation of prayer (modeled for us in Exodus 30:7-8 and Rev 8:4). The only time that venerating icons is an obligation is during Holy Week, which is the week leading up to Pascha (easter) and during confession, in which you confess your sins before the icon of Christ. I don't think that you'd be able to be an Orthodox Christian without being willing to venerate icons of Christ, because to us denying that you can iconographically depict Christ is essentially denying the incarnation, but as far as the saints go venerating their icons is more or less optional, as long as you don't go around telling people that it's heretical for them to do so.

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

@@harrygarris6921 you wrote something very interesting to me. Can you expand on how "denying that you can iconographicly depict Christ is essentially denying the incarnation" ? I don't think I can feel comfortable with any kind of icon, even of Christ, but I also don't want to deny the _central truth_ of Christianity, even, of reality (the incarnation).

[@cyberiansailor9741]

Acknowledge the leadership of his holiness the pope. It's that simple

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

No

[@ZT5513]

Why?

[@cyberiansailor9741]

@@ZT5513 Because it is the true way and the true church

[@irsshill4502]

Submit to Rome rule. And be save

[@geoffmead4581]

It’s the Catholic Church, and then every other form of Christianity is Protestant.

[@jb885]

We cant never unite until everyone become orthodox

[@hippios]

agreed. i pray for unity, but our departed friends must return to the One Church

[@jb885]

@@hippios yes we need to pray for them

[@justchilling704]

Well that’s bc you worship your church institution. I can’t see any other reason why orthadox say this except you prioritize the Institution and tradition over essentials of the faith 🤷‍♂️

[@umrapazai7484]

@@justchilling704 pretty much. We are already united under God, no institutions can separate us. We will all be neighbors in the New Jerusalem. To pretend otherwise because some don't follow certain tradition is foolish.

[@justchilling704]

@@umrapazai7484 I completely agree! Whether Non-Protestant Christians like it or not if they’re truly of faith, they will be with Protestants forever with God on a renewed Earth. Well sorta pretty sure God is going to just be correcting everybody directly 🤣

[@thefirmamentalist9922]

Simple. Become Orthodox. ☦️

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

No

[@WORDversesWORLD]

Baptist are worldly believers

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

what makes you say that?

[@WORDversesWORLD]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 I grew up Baptist from the 60s, they teach that which is of the world not of God.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

@@WORDversesWORLD which group do you think teaches the truth?

[@WORDversesWORLD]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 None!

[@princewillmadugba]

​@@WORDversesWORLDyou've been to all Baptist churches? I'm not in the USA so I'm just curious

[@snackpup]

You guys dont even have any scripture because you dont have all 66 original manuscripts and you reject the kjv as the 100% true word of God. You protestants are literally just going back to the catholic church do you see it

[@jacobwoods6153]

Im not trying to be snarky but you cannot honestly believe you can fix mainline Protestantism as a KZbinr with 60 plus thousand subscribers?

[@bigsisbri3336]

Change starts somewhere

[@jacobwoods6153]

@BigSisBri333 Come on... As a former Protestant, the only sect within Protestantism that hasnt completely gone off of the rails is evangelicalism, and that isn't even one sect you have many different flavors of it. The different mainstream denominations are dying and are losing membership from 20 to over 50% it is being gutted... You're not going to reverse that and "reunify" I mean the magisterial Reformers right out of the gate couldn't unify, what makes you think one guy can unify thousands of splinter groups when Calvin, Luther, Bucer and Zwingli couldn't lol? Nevertheless, I still enjoyed the interview.

[@yeetoburrito9972]

Now he has 160 plus thousand subscribers xD

[@Abcdefghijajajaja]

My gosh

[@Lurkingdolphin]

This didn’t age well. He has 360 K now

[@not_milk]

Yo do you guys have a discord invite?

[@mikeny1987]

I DM you on instagram