If two different amplifiers are incorporated to bi-amplify loudspeakers, what's the best way to match their gains? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com...
Пікірлер: 105
@KillerUgly3 жыл бұрын
we need a video on those synths and keyboards.
@bf01893 жыл бұрын
I'd love to see a video on the modular synthesizer!
@graxjpg3 жыл бұрын
Me too, i can’t tell what the synth is on top of the Rhodes but it looks like either a preset synth like an arp soloist or a string machine.
@HH-xo7fu3 жыл бұрын
@@graxjpg Moog 953, just a controller keyboard
@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter3 жыл бұрын
Waiting for Paul to bi amp that synth
@honeyken3163 жыл бұрын
I have found that bi-amplification is best used to access the advantages of a DSP crossover system. The digital processing can accommodate complex crossover designs that are difficult to achieve and maintain with high power handling components.
@michaelknight56073 жыл бұрын
I cannot aggree more. I'm trying to do the same by bypassing my floorstander crossover and using a digital dsp after the source then 2 dac then 2 stereo amps. As Paul said, the problem is that the gain is not the same for diff amplifier, so what can be done, is ajust the dac gain so at a listening volume both gain are the same. It's a good patch. Or us ROON and set both dac a différend max volume and everything will be ok.
@joenogueira28013 жыл бұрын
Agree. I ended up fixing the issue with a totally neutral active crossover (Sub10 model). It worked perfectly, the slope adjustments are well designed to handle any scenario.
@michaelknight56073 жыл бұрын
@Tiberius Tchaikovsky the output of a dac is digital... your digital crossover have to be placed before the dac. You'll need 2 or 3 dac depending of your setup
@StudiBeaus3 жыл бұрын
@@michaelknight5607 A-ha moment. Thanks for saying this.
@Oystein873 жыл бұрын
It's exelent using bi-amping for getting better highs from one amp and better lows from another. DSP I don't really touch much.
@NickP3333 жыл бұрын
Love that Rhodes keyboard you’ve got there, Paul. I’ll never forget the first time I saw the insides of one of those, and the mechanism by which they work is so brilliant, with basically many, many tuning forks being struck by hammers causing different notes. Amazing engineering and design!
@scharkalvin3 жыл бұрын
The reason for biamping IMHO is to avoid the need for hi level cross over networks. Also, since the woofers might need more power to reach the same sound level that the tweeters or midrange might need, then biamping with amplifiers of different power levels (horizontal) could make sense. Vertical bi-amping would seem to ONLY work with IDENTICAL amps, and then drivers with the same power needs.
@Oystein873 жыл бұрын
Also a HUGE reason for bi-amping is to use a amp better suited for highs and one better for bass. And the drivers don't need the same power requirements for vertical bi-amping.. Mids and tweeters never require as much as a woofer in the same system anyway. But you could also use different amps but that would make no sense in a vertical bi-amp setup.
@johnnytoobad77853 жыл бұрын
I had this problem also. My only solution was to design and build a custom (op-amp) based distribution amp circuit. It took a bit of work. There are distribution amp schematics out there but I don't know of anyone who makes a discrete dist. (analog de-mux) circuit (ie one input -> 2 to 4 outputs, with volume for each one). You could also just connect a 10k pot to the "strongest" amp (via the pot wiper). Essentially just a passive attenuator.
@Oystein873 жыл бұрын
One thing to look out for whendoing this (Unless it's both Class A/B) is that many speakers can have a shared minus / ground. So if you use a i.e a Class A/B on the top and a Class D or a bridged A/B amp on the bottom it can end badly as that would short circuit because a Class D and a bridged A/B amp will have 2x hot (plus) instead of hot and cold (plus and minus)
@denniswalsh84763 жыл бұрын
I do horizontal, usually with multiple outputs from my preamp. Now that you mention it, I have only one poweramp without gain and just don't use it in multiple amping. Usually have a graphic EQ going to the LF amp and kill off the mid and high frequencies. I gave two 2 and 3 way low level crossovers. They work great too except I'm prone to fiddling with them too much. You can set the individual crossover frequencies, the rolloff (6, 12, 18 dB/octave and gain of the outputs (fiddle with frequency overlap too). Anyway... that's too much unless the basic /simple setup has some issues.
@gotham613 жыл бұрын
There are two important factors that Paul didn't mention. Many amps invert the polarity of the signal. If one of the amps inverts and the other doesn't, you'll get terrible results unless you also compensate in the speaker hookup. You also need to pay attention to the combined load of the two amps, especially if you use some kind of attenuator on one of them as suggested. With some preamps, you won't get good results driving the resulting load impedance of the combination. TBH, I would suggest sticking to using two identical amps, or failing that, two different power versions from the same basic amp design and manufacturer.
@homerwinslow90473 жыл бұрын
Just use an active crossover.
@HelmutWFanck3 жыл бұрын
Yes, that's the best way👍
@H-773 жыл бұрын
Not necessarily trivial if the speakers have a passive crossover built in, especially if that built-in crossover is dealing with "behavior problems" from the woofer. I agree that it's the best way to do it, but it is not always feasible.
@nicktaylor76803 жыл бұрын
With most amps being so good these days (including classD) I think you are better off biamping vertically to hellp with channel separation and using valves in the preamp stage if you want that sound for your too end. That's the setup I use and having seperate amps for each channel improved imaging,speration etc.
@blejzerosamigos61153 жыл бұрын
Easy way to do this is to buy power amp like parasound 2350 for example with gain controls in the back and you are done.
@marcelorizzi2763 жыл бұрын
Hi, Paul... My experience tells that you can't assure same dynamics from two very different topologies/technologies even having the same gain... After a while you get a very good headache!! Cheers
@sc0or3 жыл бұрын
Don't different instruments play in different ranges (for different amplifiers)? Sure, drums will have a different dynamics than guitars have. I think it's about proper range selection. 20-80, 80-250, 250-(3.5k)5k, (3.5k)5k-20k, etc. Then your problems will go away I think.
@michaelknight56073 жыл бұрын
@@sc0or You will most likely find some track that have sound overlapping on both amp. Instrument have a lots of harmonic that can be heard far from the crossover point.
@sc0or3 жыл бұрын
@@michaelknight5607 Hm.. Makes sense. I'm only at a beginning of a way you've already passed
@marcelorizzi2763 жыл бұрын
The source will give the dynamics of the whole presentation and its chara teristics over the bandwith, don't confuse the power demanded for lower frecuencies with dynamics... which is more dy... a cymbal splash or a drum kick? If your amps don't behave identically (aside "tone") you end sick...
@Nadtochy3 жыл бұрын
Hello! I can't thank you enough for such a helpful answer!
@blejzerosamigos61153 жыл бұрын
Just buy power amp with gain control like parasound 2350 for example, Done
@Nadtochy3 жыл бұрын
@@blejzerosamigos6115 thank you!
@nainghtetsoeyi74406 ай бұрын
@@blejzerosamigos6115 May I know many of them for active bi amping :') ? I need a diagram lol.
@johnacosta5625 Жыл бұрын
The gain of the Amplifier needs to be known-I tried this with a 29db amp & a 27 db amp (that means that the 29 db amp will be 2 db louder than the 27 db amp with the same preamp signal) The ear can hear a 1 db difference. I would not put a attenuator (potentiometer) in front of the amp. That spoils the nice low output impedance of the preamp by inserting a parallel and series impedance. It's the same as having a passive preamp, and the main issue with those, is that the increased impedance interacts with the capacitive and inductive reactance of the amplifier, typically causing a rolloff in the highs or other undesireable effects like weak bass. This can be managed by properly choosing component values in the voltage divider, and considering their effects as a whole with the amplifier... It's possible to do it right, but even then, it's not good for signal integrity or sound. If the point of bi-amping mis matched amplifiers is for better sound, I feel that the suggeston is counter to the goal.
@ourcollectiveinsanity Жыл бұрын
Bi amping wihen neither amp has a volume knob is too much work i think, but mixing tube and solid state amps is a great idea, best of both worlds.
@HotMetalVideos3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for taking my question, Paul. -"Rusty" 😂
@joenogueira28013 жыл бұрын
To biamp mismatched amplifier gain, you can use a Schiit Sys (ready made solution) between your preamp and hotter amp to attenuate its gain. This can be a hit and miss option, due to preamp and amp impedance matching, not to mention the absolute importance of using the same brand and length of interconnects, speaker wire and power cords in this scenario. If you use the same amplifier model everything gets much simpler and if you're wondering, there is an advantage, when less than ideal power amps and speaker combos are in play! kzbin.info/www/bejne/ip-7hqeLir6tm8U
@gitech74503 жыл бұрын
Phase should be considered as just as important. Just as phase shifts differently from one passive crossover (and sections) to another, the same thing happens in different active gain and crossover circuits. Paul should know how important phase is for proper imaging and coherence. Cheers
@briankissel7661 Жыл бұрын
I didn’t look at the comments because I don’t want my questions swayed. I understand your advice to keep the ohmage/ impedance of the different amps similar but what about the delta when the volume is changed? Amp number 1 could see a sweep of 1 millivolt as casual while amp number two could treat it as serious. Ignoring the MAF function (loudness button) how can folks to reliability assume delta from the preamp will equal delta outputs from different amp manufacturers?
@Nicepackage3 ай бұрын
Why not an electronic crossover you'd be able to adjust the levels for each frequency range, and also make frequency adjustments.
@o.g.solutions3 жыл бұрын
If you have an amp with better tweet dynamics use it with your tweet, using one with better bottom end for.........guess what , woof woof, seems simple, i currently use an old electrovoice amp for right left tweets, two kenwood monobloks for my woofs and a cheap class d bridged to mono for my subs. Sounds very nice.
@tonystevenson60683 жыл бұрын
Hi Paul I think there is advantages on biamping with two different amps horizontally I run a Audiolab power for the low frequency’s and I have a NAD C 270 for the high frequency’s the NAD has a gain control and are both rated at 120 watts and work brilliantly to gather have tried stopping the amps that other way but that’s the best combination,even if they are a bit old still sounds great.thanks Tony.
@andrebonfim67023 жыл бұрын
Hi Tony, I was wondering if you could guide me on my setup: I have the NAD c162 pre-amp with 2 pre-outs. Pre-out 2 has a gain control. I want to bi-amp using the NAD c272 for the Low end and the NAD 320bee (or 302) for the high end . I know the c272 has gain control. How do I setup the gain on the c272 to match the other amp (either 320bee or 302) ? I know the 320bee and 302 are integrated amps , but , I intend to use one of them as the second power-amp on a horizontal bi-amp. Any help would be much appreciated, Cheers
@tonystevenson60683 жыл бұрын
@@andrebonfim6702 hi Andre I’m not at home at the moment but will get on to it when I get back. Tony
@andrebonfim67023 жыл бұрын
@@tonystevenson6068 fantastic! I am extremely grateful friend
@tonystevenson60683 жыл бұрын
@@andrebonfim6702 hi Andre hope this isn’t too late to get back,you probably won’t need the Pre-out 2 with gain control with all the amps been NAD they all probably have the same decibel gain so just leave the gains to 0 and should be ok I think my NAD C270 is 13db gain witch matches fine with my Audiolab 8000P. If you just experiment with witch amp sounds better on high and witch sounds better on low.Hope that’s of any help.Tony
@andrebonfim67023 жыл бұрын
@@tonystevenson6068 Hi Tony, thanks for the reply. I have connected the c162 preamp with the c272 and the c320bee . I read that both c272 and c320bee have the same “voltage gain” (29db). In this case , shall I leave the gain button of the preout that goes to the c320bee as “0”? Is the “voltage gain” that needs to be the same? Or is it something else? Sorry for the stupid question but if I don’t ask , I will never learn.😁
@TheLkdude3 жыл бұрын
@paul, What about the Amplifiers that have functionality like 2 pairs of connections for Left and Right. These Amp's have so-called zoned speaker connections. It allows one to connect 2 pair of speakers or use it with speakers that has 2 pair of LF/HF connectors. In this case, is it Verticle Bi-Amping? the second part to this question is, if the amplifier is rated at 100W's per channel, how is that going to affect this configuration? (Driving 2 pairs, 4 speakers should be demanding than driving 2 speakers at 100W's, so theoretically Amp should be able to pump 400W's ?)
@finscreenname5 ай бұрын
I'm sorry but I disagree. The Glorious Infinity IRS V's are basically bi amped, it's just the speakers are separated (tweeters and mid towers and bass towers) but all the towers have their own amps. Its where I got the idea of bi amping my Infinity RS IIIa's. I have 4 of them and they are total power ho's. Burned up so many Receivers over the years it was sick. Bought an external amp to take the power load off the receiver from the bass (what make my headlights dim in my truck). Passive bi amped the speakers and hook all the bass to the new amp and ran the high end side to the receiver and sent the receiver into protection mode faster than I did when feeding the whole speaker with the receiver. Found the top end caused all the ohms resistance. Ended up buying another amp for the top end and have never been happier. It really frees up the speakers. I can't explain it, but I feel like all the speakers going to the same terminal and fed with one wire constricts it. Separate amp for the bass and another for the high end. I've had these speakers for 35+ years and they just seem like they have been unleashed after bi amping them.
@kaiulrich61853 жыл бұрын
Back in the day we did that all the time with PA systems. That was kind of the first step of eq.
@cremersalex3 жыл бұрын
Why does Paul have these amazing vintage instruments there?
@graxjpg3 жыл бұрын
Some of them are vintage, but he is in a music studio!
@TheMirolab3 жыл бұрын
Why wouldn't he?
@MARKC0R32 жыл бұрын
How about this scenario… Using an AVR with Sub pre outs and you want to run that through a power amp, but highs/mids powered via the AVR’s left and right channels. Speakers would be bi amp wired.
@KillerKojak2 жыл бұрын
"QUESTION ... could i bi-amp my TRIANGLE antal esw EVEN IF I HEAR SOME SOUND ON THE TWEETER ( very little...) WHEN I ONLY PLUG THE BASS CONNECTORS ???..( whitout the metal brackets of course :)).. with two different amp do you think it gonna burn both amp ??..thank for the answer !! "
@ford15463 жыл бұрын
when you use an active crossover you also have to use an equalizer and people forget that! In a standard passive crossover you have passive EQ. which lowers frequencies!
@theylivething3 жыл бұрын
You’re amazing! Always incredible things around.
@bryfar61783 жыл бұрын
So would my 1980 Carver c4000 and M400 benefit from bi amping if I used my idle Harmon Kardon 75w AVR for the HF? ...That patch board synth RIP Keith Emerson.
@ssmith20193 жыл бұрын
What a cool modular synthesizer ! Let's have video 'bout that !
@_H_20233 жыл бұрын
OR you could just buy a passive pre which in effect is a volume control and balance it that way.
@andyshao83673 жыл бұрын
I have 2 subwoofers with left/right in/out. Can I use bi amp connection to subwoofer left/right in, connect the subwoofer left/right out to speaker bi amp?
@volpedo20003 жыл бұрын
I don’t totally agree with Paul. Let’s say I have the most powerful amp a brand makes and I like its sound, if I want to improve my system or need more headroom to drive a new set of speaker I either change brand or I bi-amp. Especially in the days of social distancing where auditioning equipment is hard why not stick with your guns?
@stefanfincken43593 жыл бұрын
Why not first vertically bi-amp and match the gain so loudness on both speakers is the same, than switch to horizontal bi-amping? You would need to control volume after that with some kind of pre-amp or interface I guess.
@BFArch0n Жыл бұрын
Grab a schiit sys passive preamp. Has a volume knob. Now your amp has a gain knob for $50. (Rca)
@ericm.68373 жыл бұрын
Why don't you ever address electronic, active crossovers (between preamp and bi-amp set up)?
@freekwo77723 жыл бұрын
You have McIntosh Mc901, 300w of tubes and 600w of ss in a box. It is made like mono block. Price acordingly
@nicholasmorrill47113 жыл бұрын
I would'nt muck about with horizontal biamping because you don't get the benefits of keeping the channels separate.
@gojira453 жыл бұрын
are the big speakers on the back Sony's??
@ahmaddanielbinmatshah16713 жыл бұрын
may i know whats the floorstander speaker on left
@Paulmcgowanpsaudio3 жыл бұрын
The studio uses Sony speakers as their floorstanders.
@Chiefonenut3 жыл бұрын
Wondering why anyone would want to vertical bi-amp?
@varioustoxins3 жыл бұрын
Could avoid cross talk between l & r channel,s but in a good design there shouldn’t be any
@gitech74503 жыл бұрын
Phase coherence. ;)
@volpedo20003 жыл бұрын
So both power supplies share the same load? And experience the same impedance curves.
@gitech74503 жыл бұрын
Yes Will, but more than that... any inductive or capacitive component, be it in an active or passive circuit, will shift the phase of the signal passing through it. So different circuits, say within different amplifiers, will have different phase shifts from input to output. And phase can have just as much influence on stereo image positioning as level/gain.
@volpedo20003 жыл бұрын
@@gitech7450 aren’t you describing an active setup though?
@moviebod3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting
@graxjpg3 жыл бұрын
Play us some moog Paul!
@waynebradley23 жыл бұрын
A simple wiring diagram on a whiteboard would've been MUCH better, for us novices.
@johnholmes9123 жыл бұрын
naim used to sell a suite of amps just for this purpose
@f430ferrari53 жыл бұрын
If one already has 1 tube amp and a separate Class D amp to begin with then they must already have a pre-amp with like front and rear rca outputs. Many have a built in fader or volume control. If preamp doesn’t have this then just buy something like in link? Could also just use a crossover. www.crutchfield.com/p_142RLC/EFX-Remote-Level-Control.html
@holdencaulfied7492 Жыл бұрын
Why wouldn't you just turn down the gain rather than build this "resistive divider" if such a thing even exists.
@Energene2310 Жыл бұрын
Most power amplifiers don't have volume controls, but two AVR receivers do. Even then, there are tonal/amp personality issues unless the AVRs are identical.
@chuateckseng718411 ай бұрын
The way you explain is very confusing..
@juliangst3 жыл бұрын
Just use DSP lol
@ivyward14092 ай бұрын
By you using diagram and showing us will really help. But so far you are very confusing.
@ford15463 жыл бұрын
Do not use bi amping! That was before when one cable type managed light frequencies best and another cable managed bass best. Paul has explained this in a video. rather use a more powerful amplifier. you do NOT get better sound with bi amping!
@TheMirolab3 жыл бұрын
Agreed.... the only advantage to bi-amping is if you are really going all the way to replace passive crossovers with active crossovers.... but in doing that, you're really redesigning the speakers. A great part in the voicing of a speaker lies in the crossover.
@ford15463 жыл бұрын
@@TheMirolab Totally agree with you 👍🏻 When you use an active crossover you also have to use an equalizer and people forget that! In a standard passive crossover you have passive EQ. which lowers frequencies.
@philipslighting82403 жыл бұрын
I think you missed the point.
@Paulmcgowanpsaudio3 жыл бұрын
Wouldn't be the first time. :) What did you think I missed?