How to choose the RIGHT and best ice axe or ice tool

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Күн бұрын

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@sanjinbajgoric8645 6 жыл бұрын

I am new to rock climbing and want to try alpine climbing soon - I love your videos- really useful information. I know that you are trying to be neutral when posting videos but it would be nice to hear about your personal favourite gear (e.g. in this case ice axe) and why you think that is. Sometimes difficult for novices to decide when buying etc.

@Cragcloud 6 жыл бұрын

Hi Sanjin! Thank you for your question and thank you for your kind works. I am very happy that they videos inspire and help :) It is exactly for that reason I create them - to help our beginners and climbers who have only been climbing for a few years to be inspired about new places to climb, and to make the best choices regarding gear. Actually, my preferred technical ice climbing axe for steep ice is the Grivel Tech Machine. I like it because it feels great and has a handle that fits my hands perfectly. And then I like the big eye as shown in the video. The swing is good and there is a good weight distribution. It might not be the most popular ice climbing axe on the market, but it fits be great. When alpine climbing, where I usually go with the updated Petzl Quark. It has some pretty neat features and really light. For general mountaineering I carry the Petzl Summit Evo. I guess the best advise - besides listening to the experiences from my video, haha - is to go to your local climbing shop and try picking up the axes, and feel how they are in your hands. That being said I still believe you should consider the features mentioned in the video :)

@sanjinbajgoric8645 6 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud awesome, cheers mate!

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Huuurrraaaahh! 10k views! 😁 Thank you all for all the comments and likes!...and keep watching! 😄

@distortimus7631 4 жыл бұрын

I am so glad I came across your channel😃👍

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much, timotej re 😄 I am happy you like my videos 😄

@badrah127 4 жыл бұрын

I am glad to come across your channel. Finally, I ve found what I am looking for.

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Badr Ah, I am really happy to hear that 😄

@aleksandarmakedonski8700 4 жыл бұрын

Finally, I found one of the best or maybe the best channel for climbing and tutorials and I'm really glad that there is some people like you who can explain people like us who are beginners in climbing thanks a lot mate I wish you happy new year I already decide what to buy All the best .

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for the positive feedback, Alexander! Really appreciated 😁 What have you decided to buy? 😄

@rokforstneric4445 4 жыл бұрын

Excellent useful information, short and simple. Also very chill dude!

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Rok! I am happy that you like to video :) And, think I am chill, haha! ;)

@JumperTheHunter 3 жыл бұрын

Old Video... but what most People are missing: The old Nomic and the old Ergo got a small drilled hole behind the Griprest where you can attach a small sling an use a leash like on the other tools. The hole in the handle is just a full strength attachment in case you use the ice axe as an anchor.

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the video is getting a bit outdated, haha ;) Anyway you are right. You can actually attach a piece of coord the the old Petzl Normics and Petzl Ergo and then attach leaches. Most of my buddies who climb with the Petzl Nomics have done that :)

@JumperTheHunter 3 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud Yeah i changed my old ergos this winter for the new ergonomics and i am using the nomic griprest with the leash attachment. huge upgrade for ice climbing in my opinion!

@24tnoble 6 жыл бұрын

Just a note about the Nomic, Petzl makes a spike for the end of the grip that you can swap out for the one that comes with the axes that allows you to attach leashes and gives you an actual spike for when you are using the axe with a piolet canne grip. As always great video guys!

@Cragcloud 6 жыл бұрын

Thanks PatsyTy! 😄 Is that for the old Nomic or the new Nomic? Petzl males the GRIPREST as a spare part, but it seems like it is obly compatible with the Nomic 2018 😕

@24tnoble 6 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud My bad, it could've been just the 2018 model. I demoed the Nomics with Petzl last winter where they showed the different GRIPREST, I forgot it was the 2018 model.

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

It would be pretty neat if you could get a GRIPREST for the old Petzl Nomic, though :)

@74kx85 5 жыл бұрын

Just unscrew the adjustment piece and there is this small hole you can put a piece of rope in to attach leashes. The plastic have a cutout for the sling. Have worked on the nomics since the first generation. Personally I use the big hole that is "full strength", perfect if you carve out space for the sling. The big hole works to build an anchor with or make a emergency rappel on. As a gear geek for many years I find many strange and misleading conclusions in this video. My recommendation is to learn more about and use the tools/gear you talk about before recommending what is good and not :)

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the feedback Oskar, and thank you for adding some more perspective to the Petzl Nomic. I would consider myself a gear geek too, though ;) The video is not intended for expert ice climbers, but for beginners, who are probably not looking into what specific features might be relevant for them, but would probably just go buy what their friends have. When I bought my first pair of technical ice axes, I just bought what I thought looked cool - luckily, I got some that I think really perform, and I still use them. But, I would like to help novices choose what is best for them. So, I am deliberately not going into a lot of details of each ice axe as it is not a review, but to show case the different features one should be considering. I based the video on some of the questions that I have heard from beginner ice climbers. Petzl probably have their reasons for not adding a proper spike with an attachment point for leashes at the bottom on the 1st and 2nd generation Nomic, but on the 3rd generation they have added that to the design. As a beginner climbing with leashes would be a good thing, right? So, for that reason I think it is really valid to question the choice of design - but maybe the 1st generation and 2nd generation Nomic wasn't intended for beginners ;) Anyway, please let me know what you find strange and misleading in the video ;)

@tyrionas Жыл бұрын

Hey quick question. I have been looking for Ice tools for quite a while and it seems that in my case something less technical would be a good option. I was look at the BD Vyper, Petzl Quark and Grivel North machine. I am interested in the grivel because for some reasons, it is significantly cheaper than the other two in switzerland. do you have any experience with the North machine?

@bradseed66 6 жыл бұрын

Great videos. Thanks and keep on climbing!

@Cragcloud 6 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much 😄 And keep climbing to you too 😄

@corbindallas3220 10 ай бұрын

If you have opportunity I’d suggest trying a bunch of different axes before you buy. Nomics where I live are very popular but I found out they are not for me and the spice at the bottom isn’t the best for Kaning. I went with the BD fuel cause I climb more moderate ice and alpine routes

@Cragcloud 9 ай бұрын

It is a really good advice! I also tried the Nomics first which wasn't for me. I climb with the Grivel Tech Machine which i am really happy with. I have also tried the Fuel and Quarks (hence the video) and had a few goes with the Petzl Ergo too.

@MrKarlosmoreno 5 жыл бұрын

Interesting video. Thanks. Any thought in the Cassin X Dream? It seams a really versatile tool, I like the adjustability of the handle, plus the 3 picks available. I have just bought them, but unfortunately not use them, yet.

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Carlos. I have not tried them myself, but I have only heard positive things about them. I’ve actually heard is one of the very best! 😄 Let me know what you think, once you have tried them out.

@auditocanarsie7355 3 жыл бұрын

At 6:20 you said you can use a leash so you don't loose your ice Axe. But if you fall and let go of the handle with the ice tool still attached to your harness by a leash, don't you have to worry about a sharp ice axe falling on you while you are sliding down the frozen waterfall?

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! That is the down side of leashes. I actually fell a couple of years ago on a quick steep ice climb and I am really happy that I did not wear leashes that day. On a long day in the mountains or on very long multipitches where you don't want to abseil all the way back to the base to pick up your ice tools, I would probably wear leashes - but on single pitches I have actually started not to use leashes.

@AlpineTrails 5 жыл бұрын

I wish you would have actually done a comparison between the axes, what you liked/disliked about them. I have a hard time deciding what to replace my quarks with. I like the weight and versatility of the Nomic, dislike the handle and find it uncomfortable and too thin. Love the fuels, but they are less versatile and a bit heavy for dry tooling and seem a bit too much for easier alpine days. The new Reactor is very good and I like it a lot, wish the handle was as comfortable as the Fuel. The Tech Machines, only had a chance to test them briefly. I quite liked them, but the non adjustable handle worries me. I also have no feedback on durability. Heard people complaining about the carbon ones delaminating. I'm mostly doing alpine, for which quarks would be better, but prefer a more technical axe for ice. Since I can only afford one, I will favour ice climbing. What's your feedback on the Grivels? Cheers.

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

I've been climbing steep ice with the Grivel Tech Machine for three seasons now (the non-carbon one) and I really enjoy climbing with them. Personally, the Grivel Tech Machine is what suits me best. I've obviously tried all ice tools in the video, and recently did a test with the Black Diamond Reactor (which you will find a short review of here on the channel). I've brought my Grivel Tech Machines climbing steep ice in the European Alps, Norway and actually also did some Scottish winter climbing a couple of seasons back. I think the weight distribution is spot-on. They are not too heavy, nor to light. I find the Black Diamond Fusion and the Petzl Nomic very "front-heavy", which is fine for a good swing, but it is just too much - at least for my taste. I was worried about the handle too as I have pretty big hands, but the Grivel Tech Machine fits great. I climb with both Black Diamond Punisher and Black Diamond Arc gloves. The Black Diamond Punisher is quite thick and fills out the entire handle. In terms of durability I am not on my second set of ice picks and second set of mixed picks. I switch the blades dependant on activity, so they wear out less. I don't believe they are particularly less durable than other picks - as long as you maintain then and keep them sharp. I think they best thing to do is to order a pair off the internet with a webshop with a good return policy like campz.de (has full, free return in Europe at least) and see how they would fit your hand. EDIT: And actually, I am planning on doing a full "head-to-head" between the Petzl Nomic and the Black Diamond Reactor :)

@AlpineTrails 5 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud Thanks for the reply. I'm actually the opposite, small hands. Also like to climb in thinner gloves like the BD Terminator. I must admit that Reactor feels more balanced than the Fuel which is heavier in the head. Both Reactors and Grivel handles are slightly too big with the second one being more comfortable. The best fit of all is by far the Fuel. Fits like a glove. Not being able to add an adze/hammer for alpine and being the heaviest of all 4 holds me back from pulling the trigger. The nomic handle fits well but too hard and becomes uncomfortable after a while. I prefer the swing on Reactors and Tech Machines, and the picks. I've climbed with all but the Tech Machines which I only did about 10m of ice with. They felt much lighter then actually are and pretty balanced. The only concern is that the spikes will rip off gloves on the approach/ topping out. Thanks for your feedback

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Alpine.Trails You are more than welcome 😄 You can get the Fuel with a hammer, but it still lacks the adze. It is really a shame that the handle can’t be adjusted on the Grivel Tech Machine. It is really well balanced and works great for mixed climbing too. You can get a hammer and adze for the Grivel Tech Machine too, but they are quite big and heavy. That is a shame. I really feel your pain. It doesn’t seem like there is one perfect axe. Have you seen the DMM Switch? I haven’t tried them myself, but it actually strikes me like a really worthy combatant too - it is pretty light and according to reviews the balance should be fine.

@r.p.6722 5 жыл бұрын

Waiting!

@brendantyrrell3450 4 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud any update on a nomic vs reactor video?

@leonardosilvagni7073 3 жыл бұрын

Just a quick question: does a more aggressive pick ( that penetrates the ice better) make self arrest harder ? Intended in an ice axe not an ice tool that would make it almost impossible to self arrest

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

Hi Leonardo! Sorry about the late response. It’s a good question, though. Actually, I would say that it is more about the shape of the handle. The straighter the handle the more easy you can dive in the tool. On ice climbing tools the handle are often offset and ergonomically shaped, so it takes more space. Therefore it is har getting the tool to dig deep in the snow. With a mountaineering axe (or ice climbing tools with more straight shafts and less ergonomically shaped handles) there is nothing to prevent the tool digging further in. Makes sense? 😄

@leonardosilvagni7073 3 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud Yes! Thank you very much, it actually makes a lot of sense. Great content on your channel btw😁

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

@@leonardosilvagni7073 Thanks! I am happy I can help 😄

@rikard.ronnkvist 6 жыл бұрын

You can attach a accessory cord (aprox 2mm) under the adjustable handrest, then attach your leash to that cord... and on the 2018 (or is it 2019?) Nomic there is a completely new bottom part where there is a hole for leach.

@Cragcloud 6 жыл бұрын

That is correct 😄 I have seen people do that, but I don’t understand why Petzl didn’t design the original Nomic with that in mind from the beginning. I got some feedback about that I should have shown the new Nomic, so I am thinking of doing a follow up, where I compare the two iterations. However, I deliberately chose to use the old Nomic for this video to illustrate that some ice axes or ice tools don’t have a spike at the bottom of the handle, where you can attach leashes. Thank you for the feedback 😄

@rikard.ronnkvist 6 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud Worst part from Petzl's side... the new bottom part doesn't fit the old Nomic. The hole is moved a few millimeters, just enough so that you have to buy new axes. :(

@Cragcloud 6 жыл бұрын

Haha, really!? I found out you can buy a GRIPREST as a spare part, but what you are saying is that it is not compatible with the old Nomic? To me it seems like the the “only” real update is around the handle. So is it worth updating ones old Nomics just for that?

@rikard.ronnkvist 6 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115125585/psa-new-nomic-griprest-will-not-work-on-the-older-nomic

@rikard.ronnkvist 6 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud www.thealpinestart.com/2018/10/07/field-tested-petzl-nomic-ergonomic/?fbclid=IwAR2c52d1fK7pMf7mIEoW7hpa3Sem47iVM7loDR2WrY4250gbOATpsmM9e6M

@lorenzopapini6031 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

You are very welcome 😄

@namitadas631 4 жыл бұрын

Informative 👍. Can you please tell me about ice axe shaft,if the aluminium shaft is a tube, hollow inside or solid piece?

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks :) The shafts of the ice axes are hollow as far as I know.

@r.p.6722 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your fantastic videos. Great visuals..very helpful information. Question for you then.. How do you rate the Raptor and Salamandra by Eliteclimb?

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks 😁 Well, I haven’t tried the Eliteclimb Raptor or Salamandra, but they look pretty nice. Are they dedicated drytooling and mixed climbing axes?

@jirihaban380 5 жыл бұрын

I'm having trouble deciding whether to go for Petzl Quark or Nomic. Where would you draw the line? What can you do with Quark that you can't do with Nomic (and vice versa)? Great video and a great channel BTW!

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Both the Petzl Nomic and Petzl Quark are excellent axes. I think it depends on whether you want to do some harder steep ice climbing like WI5 and up. Resting in the more ergonomic handle that the Petzl Nomic offers is much better than the straight handle of the Petzl Quark. And you will have a stronger swing too. On the other hand the Petzl Quark is a great all-rounder, and great for alpine climbing where you would use the straight handle to stick it into the snow when climbing snow slopes. So, I would say if you will be climbing dedicated ice climbing, the go for the Petzl Nomic. Or, maybe you should take a look at the new Black Diamond Reactor. That one has some pretty cool features too 😄

@jirihaban380 5 жыл бұрын

The thing is I'm not sure what I will find myself doing. I've tried ice climbing and drytooling with Quarks and it was ok. I guess my question is how much of a problem is snow plunging with Nomics or hard climbing with Quarks. Reactor is sadly outside of my price range, looks great however.

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

I have done some WI5 climbing with my Petzl Quark and I think that will be the limit. I think I would go the Petzl Nomic - you will be really happy with the ergonomic handle and it doesn’t perform miserably on snow slopes. The Petzl Quark is just better. I climb steep ice primarily with the Grivel Tech Machine and alpine climbing with the Petzl Quark. But if I were to own only one set, I would probably settle with my Grivel Tech Machine, so I could climb harder ice 😄

@jirihaban380 5 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud I'm gonna see how other tools feel in my hand, but Nomic seems to be on top of the list. However I've seen some bad reviews on them, that after some use there is a wigle in the shaft. That's kind of worrying since you pay quite a sum for it and then trust your life with the tool! :D Thanks for your advice, you really have earned my subscritpion. Great channel!

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much :D I really appreciate it! I agree, it is a lot of money for a new pair of ice tools - especially if you get some that doesn't fit :)

@Hansii81 3 жыл бұрын

Excellent Video👏🏻💥 I've a little problem. This year I want to buy my first own ice axe. The years before I rented always the Nomic. But now I want also to do some north faces or to go to the Western Alps or climb something like the Ballavicini Rinne. So I don't know if the nomics are to aggressive to some routs or should I buy the quarks. Are they also good for Waterfall climbing? Or which tools would you recommend. Thanks a lot for reading and answering 😉

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

My “North Face Tool” is the Petzl Quark as it sits as a good middle ground between the more steep ice climbing focuses tools. I’ve done plenty of steep ice with my Petzl Quark though and it handles quite fine. However, since the handle is not as ergonomic as the Petzl Nomic (or the Grivel Tech Machine that is my go-to tool in terms of steep ice climbing) I don’t feel I rest as well in the Petzl Quark in 90 degrees steep ice. I think that is one of the things to consider. If you would do WI3 and WI4 I think the Petzl Quark is just as good a tool as anything else, but if you plan to do WI5 and up (maybe even WI4+) where you would be resting more on vertical ice, then I would go with an ice tool that is more geared towards steep ice. But the Petzl Quark is a fantastic all-rounder 😄

@Hansii81 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot for your fast replie.I think I will go with the Quarks😉

@Cragcloud 3 жыл бұрын

You are welcome! And good choice 😄

@산슐랭가이드 Жыл бұрын

Hello~ Petzl ergonomic vs Grivel darkmachine x… Which one would you like to buy?

@shalinisethiya 4 жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks for your video. It was very helpful. I would be in nepal in 2021 for the island / mera and Lobuche summits and a 7000er by end of 2021 so wanted to check if Grivel thor hammer with spring leash would be a good choice.

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Hi Shalimisethiya! That sounds like some really great adventures! The Grivel Thor Hammer is for hammering pitons and other protection that needs to be hammered. It is not an ice tool 😄

@shalinisethiya 4 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud thanks for correcting. Do advise some good ice axe then. Too many in market to choose from.

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

@@shalinisethiya For mountaineering I find the Petzl Summit Series very nice! I carry the Petzl Summit Evo myself which is a really great axe.

@luigibenignochiappero5589 4 жыл бұрын

CONGRATS!!!! Mr. Thank You!!! CHAPEAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best Wishes!.

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Luigi 😄

@RMNPBETA 5 жыл бұрын

Just came across the Trango Raptor today and it's seems pretty legit. Not sure on the weight of it but seems like a go to for me. idk.

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, indeed! Just looked it up and it seems like it is getting pretty decent reviews, and actually stacks up quite well against more expensive alternatives 😄

@julianroffman6483 4 жыл бұрын

Awesome video, as usual! How would you rate the Black Diamond Fuel Hammer (The one you have in the video) against the Tech Machine and the Nomic for alpine climbing with hard ice and sometimes mixed conditions.

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

I think the Petzl Nomic is a more versatile tool and it is easier to get spare parts - at least here in Europe. You can also add extra weights if you need a more heavy swing for steep ice and remove them when you need a more lightweight setup. However; the Black Diamond Fuel strikes me as a tool that is more designed for steep ice climbing rather than alpine climbing. It is more heavy and the pick is angled for steep ice. I am not sure whether you can get picks that are angled for mixed conditions for the Black Diamond Fuel. Personally I carry the Petz Quark for alpine climbing as the straight shaft is great for snow slopes and for terrain where you would like to stick the shaft into the show, but still have a tool that is aggressive enough for ice sections. However, I find it much easier to get a proper rest in ergonomically shaped handles (e.g. Petzl Nomic or Black Diamond Fuel) than the straight handle of the Petzl Quark.

@julianroffman3921 4 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud Thank you so much for your amazing answer! I went for the Nomic and I'm really enjoying it! I come from a set of X-Dreams which I really like but I think I'll stay with the nomic from now on, it's a superb tool.

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Julian Roffman Nice! You will not regret your choice 😄 I’ve heard a lot of positive things about the Cassin X-Dream. Any thoughts?

@julianroffman3921 4 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud they're really really great tools, you should definitely give them a try someday, the shifting handle works wonderful if you want a "do it all" tool that can handle really techy stuff and I feel like Cassin picks are really high quality as well. I live in argentina and it's very hard to find spare parts, so I had to choose something a bit more popular like the nomics, if it wasn't for that, I'd probably still use the X-Dream as my go to!

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

@@julianroffman3921 Ahh, makes sense! I guess they have to ship spare parts from Cassin all the way from Italy? :/ I frequently climb in Cogne in Italy and I know there is a "Camp/Cassin Test Center", where I can pop by and try them out - I might do that next time :)

@stinkysocks7382 5 жыл бұрын

thank you .. very useful ... I will get a custom made done now with all your information. . cheaper and suitable

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

Sounds fantastic that the video will help you towards the best ice axe! 😄 Where do you get a custom ice tool from?

@stinkysocks7382 5 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud ohh my freind's father is an artistic craftman.. he has a lot of carpentering experience .. i have had a word with him about it .. i showed him the image and all dimensions and he told me he can try to sort me out.. can be done.. at least he is sure about the shaft part.. made from wood. yeah .. hey also can you tell me one thing... so when you go for summit they use this weather information device or app.. can you tell me what is the name of it.. like they just google it or is there any specific more reliable thing to know weather conditions. thank you in advance

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

stinky socks nice! Sounds great with a custom made ice axe! Personally, I use mountain-forecast.com for weather forecasts in the mountains. It is pretty reliable and very detailed.

@reggi8820 4 жыл бұрын

Hello I have a question can I do a alpine mountain with a technical ice axe ?

@Cragcloud 4 жыл бұрын

Yes, but mountaineering axes excels on general mountaineering as you can use the longer, straight shaft as a trekking pole while climbing snow slopes. Most technical ice climbing axes like the Black Diamond Fuel, Petzl Nomic or Cassin X-Dream all comes in one slice and with a more ergonomically shaped handle that makes it a bit harder sticking into the snow. You could look at the Petzl Sum’tec if you need an axe that can do it all - but personally, I would prefer something that is a bit more specialised for what you do. The Petzl Quark is also a good example of an allrounder 😄

@aliafff 5 жыл бұрын

I have Nomic for 4 years and Im thinking to buy Grivel tech machine, I think tech machine is easier to swing on hard ice, what do you think?

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

I really enjoy the Tech Machine. I think it is a fantastic ice tool with just the right weight distribution for a very good swing. The handle is also great and fits my hands really well. Only downside is actually on the latter. You can’t adjust the handle to fit different hand sizes.

@aliafff 5 жыл бұрын

@@Cragcloud thanks.

@Cragcloud 5 жыл бұрын

You are very welcome 😄