How to Cluster Model Rocket Motors with Success

[@tomgates316]

Nice video. Took me back to about ‘69 or ‘70 when we had a home built rocket that flew using a cluster of 5 Estes D engines. Of all the times it flew, don’t think we ever got all 5 to light for a flight. Had an 8 inch tube and was about 4 feet tall. Always used a car battery. I’m sure we could have used better wiring skills. :-D But not bad for 8th graders.

[@ukshaandumasia1446]

ive not built a rocket before... how big a fuselage do u think i can do with a cluster of 3 c motors?

[@Daniel37643]

I think a estes bt 101

[@stemmentor9700]

Always used Car batteries. Never did a 5 engine, although had the TIR on it. Had a Centi LJ II 3 engine cluster and sadly one didn’t go off (ignitor came out). LJII never was the same after that. 😫. and for what they are going for now. I still like the multi engines vice one larger one and i haven’t flown since 79. getting itch to start again. good times with the car batteries. dang AA n C batteries never lasted and we had to work for our stuff in the 70s. 🚀 power

[@wcoburn]

This is really helpful, thank you. I would love to see a series of videos walking the audience through how to build a high power rocket that was capable of air starts

[@apogeerockets]

Some day when we get some free time.

[@peterwood2633]

Clustering is so fun. You need good motor prep (expose the gunpowder, good ignitors with robust instantaneous power)

[@billj5645]

For 3 or more motors it is best to use the clip whip so you don't worry about complicated wiring or wires that might be touching. I used to use a short piece of wire to go around the outside and twist the outside wires of each igniter to this wire. This achieves the same funcation as a clip whip but just using some junk wiring. Also I always used a 12V car battery for power. I would recommend you add some drawings to this video to show the wiring, you could even draw something on a chalkboard.

[@kerrythompson9506]

Back in the '60s I build a 3-motor rocket from a Christmas wrapping paper tube. When it launched only two of the motors fired and the rocket looped over the neighbors house due to the offset thrust. I ran around the house to the vacant lot on the other side and some old guy was beating out a weed fire - and the rocket - with a shovel. I think the third engine lit from the top and pretty much destroyed the tube, so it was a goner anyway. So I ran back to my yard, back to the drawing board.

[@robertcampbell6349]

Excellent! Videos like this one of the reasons I shop at Apogee.

[@Fred_the_1996]

Oh my goodness, I had been trying to do this for ages!

[@dogprowilhelm7630]

Helpful data for a clustered 7×13mm booster and it uses A10-0s only. I call the booster Mini-F all in a BT60 and used for Sport Launches. It never disappoints.

[@stevesidare2493]

I had success making 3-clip pigtails that would have one end attachable to main clips coming from my car battery. And having insulating jackets on the clips helped prevent shorting problems.

[@robbiekipping1124]

A quick discussion discussion of parallel wiring comes to mind. Keeping a polarity attached (+,-) helps. While the. Individual igniter doesn't care in parrallel they need to have polarity considered. Dr. K.

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

@Apogee Components >>> Tim: In the early part of the video you mentioned adding _pyrogen_ to the tip of the igniter. It has been *quite a while* since I personally launched my own rocket, although I have been to a few launches. That said, I seem to recall all Estes igniters coming with something like _pyrogen_ already on their tips. Am I just remembering that _shellac_ you mentioned?

[@scottl5910]

The older Estes igniters were black and many claim were “better”. The new Estes igniters look like the ones Tim shows in the video

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

@@scottl5910 >>> Rodger that -- Thanks.

[@iamnotjoseph123]

Him talking about how you need a lot of power in your launch controller Me: sitting content with my 27 volt homemade launch controller with absolutely no safety whatsoever

[@chrisgomez3078]

What did you use as a power supply? I'm experimenting with a lithium 20v drill battery,

[@samnoneofyourbisnus2543]

what about a fuse? light and run.

[@danzelchen5623]

@@samnoneofyourbisnus2543 illegal

[@nickdesert7304]

Can u just use glow spark plugs?

[@apogeerockets]

Can you get them inside the nozzle opening all the way to the tip? If so, then you can probably use them.

[@tyr0n313]

3:13 what is that quick burst dip made of? I’d love make this or some alternative.

[@apogeerockets]

We don't have the formula for Quickburst. I doubt that the manufacturer is going to give it up. But we do sell it.

[@TheJimtanker]

So you always wire the igniters in parallel? Would you ever use series?

[@apogeerockets]

Depends on the igniter. If it is an e-match, you can. The fireworks industry uses series all the time.

[@Hodad3000]

A car battery always worked well.

[@ukshaandumasia1446]

ive not built a rocket before... how big a fuselage do u think i can do with a cluster of 3 c motors?

[@DazeOfBudtending]

Trial and error just build some shit man

[@bumpedhishead636]

Back in the 1970s, I NEVER had a successful firing of all 3 engines, even when using a car battery. Of course, back then I was using the crummy igniters that came with the Estes engines (remember the old blue trapezoidal packaging tubes?) They were barely long enough to get them twisted together, and it was really easy for the igniter to be pulled out from the bottom of the nozzle. I finally gave-up always replaced clusters with single D engine.

[@brotherjosh6243]

Tim, your videos are incredibly helpful. I'm very new to model rocketry and your videos have been invaluable to me and my learning. Thank you!

[@apogeerockets]

Glad to have been able to help.

[@williamsmith8333]

can you use common cannon wicks to ignite the rockets?

[@apogeerockets]

We always recommend following the NAR safety code found at www.nar.org. It requires, for safety reasons, to always ignite rocket motors electronically. There have been hundreds of times in my own experience where we had to yell at the top of our lungs to hold the launch because something was amiss. You can't do that (stop the launch at the last second) with cannon fuse.

[@williamsmith8333]

@@apogeerockets good point, thank you!

[@King_Kristof]

thanks! do you have a store in town we could walk around in?

[@apogeerockets]

Yes. In Colorado Springs, Colorado.

[@King_Kristof]

@@apogeerockets next time we get leave, I'm coming to the springs and raiding your knowledge bin 😅

[@spamcan9208]

I used a drill battery once, worked very well.

[@calebvaccaro]

I've used nails under the motors and paper clips to connect the current. Easier to clip the ignitor to the paper clip to transmit the current, pretty cheap and intuitive way to make it work

[@calebvaccaro]

great video tho

[@stephenanderle5422]

What ever happened to the Centuri igniter that had a copper wire coated with a tan compound? That worked great every time.

[@apogeerockets]

Centuri was bought up by the company that owned Estes. So Estes is the company that owns the rights to that igniter. So you might ask them what their plans are.

[@josephg3231]

Tim what igniter would you recommend to ignite a cluster of D-21-Ts?

[@apogeerockets]

As mentioned in the video, you can use the igniter that comes with the motor.

[@josephg3231]

Okay so the starters that you used for the composite cluster were the ones that came with the motor?

[@apogeerockets]

@@josephg3231 Yes.

[@inex4431]

How do you cluster 2 motors. Do i need a special launch controller?

[@buraqaerospace9945]

Hey

[@chadwick2629]

did you watch the video? its literally right at the beginning

[@drearycoma]

I am trying to make a rough model of nasa's STS rocket for a school project and I was wondering how I would ignite the engines if they are apart from eachother? should I try to do this or would it be unstable without any movable pieces like a real rocket?

[@apogeerockets]

see: www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Skill-Level-4-Model-Rocket-Kits/Flying-Machine

[@keokigray4199]

Does anyone still use flash pans? If so, is there a rule-of-thumb number of motors when a flash pan makes more sense? Great video. Thanks.

[@apogeerockets]

They are only used for black powder motors. With the invention of Composite propellant motors most people realized that you can get the thrust you need from a single motor, and you don't need to make large clusters of black powder anymore. That is why they are never used anymore. It makes the launch a lot safer and more successful.

[@keokigray4199]

Thanks!

[@davidpinter1663]

I disagree with the approach of wiring igniters in parallel. I do professional fireworks shows, and we always wire multiple shots on a single queue in series. We do this because a continuity test of a parallel wiring will be positive even if you have one or more open/bad igniters. Only if ALL igniters are open/bad will you fail a continuity test. This has potential safety implications. I encourage flyers, at a minimum, use an ohm meter to test the resistance of each igniter (they should all be very close) after installation into the motor, but before twisting the leads together (although even the act of twisting the leads together can damage Estes Solar igniters). In a series wiring, if only one igniter lacks continuity, the whole cluster will not have continuity. The downside is that a series wiring does require even more voltage than parallel (by n times where n is the number of igniters, 12V for 2 igniters, 18V for 3, etc, for a fixed-current 6V output battery), so controller capability is even more important. You can also ground test your igniter harness to make sure the controller is up to the job. Wasting a few igniters is a small price to pay for ensuring the controller can light all the igniters quickly.

[@rosswarren436]

I think a few years ago Quest made some igniters that didn't take as much current to fire off as other igniters, so many people did successfully wire them in series or depending on the number of engines, a combination of series and parallel. Unfortunately, I *think* Quest no longer makes those particular igniters.

[@johnpringle9967]

Hello Mr. Pinter. I am a retired electrician who now flies RC fixed wing things, but about 100 years ago I enjoyed hobby rocketry and I'm feeling the pull to that hobby again. My main complaint of the hobby was recovering them at sometimes considerable distances and the successful ignition of the motors. Regarding your comments on parallel/series applications I have a question. Although I successfully flew up to 3 stage rockets, all stage setups were single engine. Back then, I couldn't justify the expense and time to risk a successful multiengine booster. Anyhow, I think you're right on the series setup thing, but do the igniters not actually burn up either through the heat of the shorted circuit inside the cone, or are burned apart from the engines output gases, or both? I believe so... yes/no? If this is the case, how can you guarantee that the power won't be cut off to the rest of the downstream devices? It's like an old style set of Christmas tree lights, one goes out and the whole string goes out. I realize your safety concern regarding parallel setups. Who wants to walk up to an apparently dead rocket and have the thing blow up in your face! I was amazed several times on launch explosions as were my friends!

[@spamcan9208]

@@johnpringle9967 That's a very good point. My guess is there's a reason why it's been done in parallel for all of these years. You can break the circuit during ignition and cut power to the motor(s) at the end of the line. So continuity test each igniter after it's been installed (in case they were damaged going in) and you should be ok. Now the problem becomes whether or not the motor fails to light from another issue. Plus a large cluster (there is a model with 6 or 7 motors!) wired in series requires more power that is above what generally hobbyists are capable of doing.

[@mguerramd]

I'm a licensed pyrotechnician as well. I will try to use ematches and a Cobra firing system. The problem with ematches is they don't fit in the nozzle. But visco does, so for single engines an ematch bridged to visco should work. For a cluster visco is a no go, too unpredictable on the timing. It's possible an ematch taped to the nozzle may pass fire to the propellant, I will test that out.

[@phantomx.t.v6610]

@@johnpringle9967 you should continue rocketry it’s such an amazing hobby I fly fixed wig and have a little be for flying helicopters and I love to race 1/10 buggy and 1/8 nitro buggies but there’s something about rocketry that has always drawn me to it there’s nothing wrong with doing a little bit of everything and it also helps from getting burned out on doing one thing

[@JonneytheKidd]

how do you make or get that black lighter liquid stuff?

[@apogeerockets]

We have it at the ApogeeRockets.com website.

[@Ebajimo]

Hello. I’m currently 3D modeling a 3D printed model rocket of starship, this helps me cause I’ll be using 3 engines on it just like the real thing.

[@Jetfreddy]

How did it go

[@Jetfreddy]

Currently planing on putting 3 on super heavy model

[@misterjaxon2559]

I used to used an electric fence battery. About half the weight of a typical car battery and had a built in handle.

[@Savage_Offroad]

How did you make the qiuck burst dip that you dipped the Estes igniters in?

[@apogeerockets]

We have it on our website at: www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Motor_Starters/QuickDip

[@rocketscience365]

Hello i have 4 engine rocket is estes pro series ii enough to ignite 4 engines in ones?

[@apogeerockets]

You're going to have to burn some igniters to fine out. I know.... You don't want to spend the money wasting igniters. But it isn't a waste if you've learned something from the test. So consider it an investment in your knowledge. How much is it worth to gain new knowledge?

[@rocketscience365]

Knowledge that i want to get will help me in my future job,so i will spend money on things that will help me reach my dreamed job(aerospace engineer),so i just want to ask which launch controller will be good for 4 engine rocket start

[@rocketscience365]

@@apogeerockets maybe aerotech interlock 12 volts will be good choice,but first i want to find out if there are not some cheaper alternatives before i buy that one

[@willc1241]

I have a launch controller that runs on a 9-volt battery from an estes launch kit. Will that set off 2 b sized engines and a c engine?

[@apogeerockets]

Controllers don't set of engines. They set off "Igniters." The proper question is: "will the controller set off 3 igniters?" The answer is easy to find out. Burn three igniters. Yep. You gotta burn off a set of igniters. I know you don't want to do that, because it will cost money. But that is the ONLY way to find out. Sorry for the bad news.

[@willc1241]

Apogee Components - okay thanks, so I should test 3 Estes igniters at once and if it doesn’t like up all at once I need to get a better control?

[@apogeerockets]

@@willc1241 Yes. Test!

[@apogeerockets]

@@willc1241 Just a bigger battery. Also check the battery first.

[@erockbrox8484]

What if you take one rocket engine and cut it in half and glue another one (same size) on top of the other one. So you have 1 rocket engine but you are making it longer.

[@apogeerockets]

boom. Modifying motors like that always ends in failure.

[@Fjgdfbh]

How do you get the quick dip?

[@apogeerockets]

Get it here: www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Motor_Starters/QuickDip

[@glenliesegang233]

Centuries had an igniter with a short "fuse" of solid rapid burning material. Only failed ignition when igniter wires pulled it loose. A tissue paper plug probably would have helped.

[@apogeerockets]

Fuses are long gone. It is against the NAR safety code.

[@RobertKelley-ng7ej]

Jetex wick.

[@johnnyRandomadness]

The old estes ignitors use to have that stuff on the end

[@BlueTrane2028]

Is the black/white 3 engine rocket a kit that you sell? Looks killer! EDIT: Found it, Semroc Defender. Added to the restock notification list!

[@rbz12run]

If you can have a heavier gauge conductor (solid copper wire) versus smaller braided cabling, then you will have less line resistance from your battery/batteries to the igniters. 😉 Use Ohm’s Law to your advantage for delivering current out to that load (resistors)! 🚀

[@kernelsmith]

Changing the wire for a thicker gauge wouldn't change anything as the Estes igniters use nichrome wire so you are passing current thru high resistance wire regardless. Upping the voltage however, pushes more current through the resistor (the nichrome) which heats it up more quickly, thus lighting the "pyrogen" more quickly

[@stuntmanmike37]

Can't beat good old fashioned cannon fuse. Join each fuse into a common central fuse and light. Guaranteed total ignition.

[@apogeerockets]

Unfortunately, if you want to have insurance coverage for your rocket launch through the NAR or Triopoli, you can't use cannon fuse. The reason is that you can't terminate the launch at the last second like you can with electrical ignition. The NAR safety Code, which is one of the reasons why model rocketry is "legal" in the USA, prohibits fuse lit motors. So please don't jeopardize the hobby by using a fuse to launch your rockets. We have a good safety record, and we'd like to keep it.

[@btrocketry3736]

A now we know..thank you for the info.Too bad these days my rockets launch vertically from an air cannon and land horizontally (backsliding technique)

[@MAZOXFF]

PLESS SIR HOW TO MAKE ELECTRIC FUSE 😔🥰

[@apogeerockets]

That's easy. Get some thin nichrome wire. Pass electricity through the wire, and it will heat up red hot. That heat is what is used to start the propellant burning.

[@MAZOXFF]

@@apogeerockets OHH THANKS SIR 🥰😍

[@spider0655]

Thank you that was great, I always wonder if that was possible.

[@jasollner]

Guess I got lucky with my 3D powered rocket I built back in the late 80s. Never had an engine not fire.

[@normanperkel139]

Thanks!

[@patrickunderwood5662]

Defender… what a classic!

[@jeramydowns2487]

As many burnt up ignitors I had as a kid with no motor ignition. And no way to just buy more in the 90s lol and no one, or internet to be even able to help out with a solution. Ahhhh. frustration.

[@warrensmith7321]

Great Video …I just use Quick Match ..so much Easier xx

[@robbiekipping1124]

Good video

[@davej3781]

you mean Estes igniters don't have that flaming stuff on them now? They sure did when I was a kid. I'd love to get back into rockets with my own kids, but last time I looked into finding a legal place to launch, it was a 90 minute drive at the crack of dawn once time per month... nevermind.

[@erichvonmanstein6876]

Damn what state do you live in?

[@davej3781]

@@erichvonmanstein6876 CA

[@allenr1154]

like to know more about silver rocket there

[@apogeerockets]

It is the "Flying Machine." You'll find it at: www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Skill-Level-4-Model-Rocket-Kits/Flying-Machine

[@kernelsmith]

I was hoping someone had asked this question ;)

[@xKlondikex]

And we don't get to see them launch? I feel cheated.

[@apogeerockets]

Relieve that anxiety by building and flying your own cluster engine rocket.

[@erichvonmanstein6876]

@@apogeerockets or dont be cheap scumbag trying to make a sell and launch one

[@donnydew9313]

Can you cluster g class engines and add an aerial firework at the end?! Asking for some friends lolllll

[@apogeerockets]

Just do the fireworks if explosions excite you. It is cheaper than model rocketry. The lower to the ground the fireworks go off, the more impressive they are because they are louder.

[@donnydew9313]

@@apogeerockets Not if the world can't see them. 😌👌

[@erockbrox8484]

All you need is a car battery with some wires hooked up to it and the rocket motors.

[@MrGerhardGrobler]

yes, it is the amps that kill you, not the volts. If you home build, but several batteries in parralel configuration. the volts will be the same, but the amps would be the combined number of all the batteries. This is why rechargeble batteries have lower volts, but higher amps.

[@rohithrao2790]

Hi

[@Youdontwannaknow..]

80th comment

[@TimothyOBrien1958]

Should have launched them.

[@warrensmith7321]

Clip Whips are so Unreliable xx