How to Compose a Perpetual Canon || Imitative Counterpoint 2

[@MAUD_IFY]

"unlike Beethoven i do not have a sense of humor" had me laughing out loud

[@WizardOfArc]

And Beethoven was even German!! Lol!

[@matthewmcdermott1955]

me too

[@elka-nato]

As a looping-based artist, I need to say this is my favourite video from your channel, and perhaps one of the most useful even in nowadays popular music. Why? 1) Looping (and Frippertronics in particular) is basically a modern, "tool-assisted" approach to perpetual canons for both composing AND performing. Voices can be understood as layers and viceversa. In fact, you can play ANY perpetual canon, layer-by-layer, even with a monophonic instrument (voice, flute, trumpet, etc.) with the aid of a very long delay effect or a loop station pedal. All you have said here in your video is 100% relevant to modern looping, even if people today don't follow the strict counterpoint rules nor the tonal voice-leading ones. 2) The vast majority of the popular music today is based on repetitive loops throughout (most of) the whole song. For instance, you can easily reinterpret popular songs like "With or without you" or "Shape of You" as perpetual canons (at least, their accompainment parts), because of their neverending repetitive chord progressions. Ambient and video-game music (VGM) also follow this trend and can be approached like perpetual canons as well. 3) I also remember some classic rock musicians like Brian May use very long delays to create breath-taking harmonies by using this principle (when real-time digital pitch-shifting technology was not developed yet). Perhaps the only major difference between "classic" and "modern" approaches is the posibility of the latter to actively avoiding extreme repetition and so play longer pieces. In Frippertronics-style looping, former layers gradually fade as new layers are added by overdubbing, so the perpetual canon can evolve infinitely! On the other hand, "standard" looping can avoid repetition by punch in/out layers, and/or by modify them with effects (2x speed, ½x speed, and reverse are the most popular ones). Thanks Jacob for this video. 👌

[@JacobGran]

This is great. Is there a particular Queen song that you are thinking of that would illustrate Brian May's guitar delay?

[@elka-nato]

@@JacobGran I think Brighton Rock is the prime example, but there are some more in the Sheer Heart Attack album. By the way, there is a video named "Brian May DELAY" here on KZbin in which the Dr. himself explains the subject in detail.

[@ShaharHarshuv]

This was also a good tutorial to composing counter point with text. I think Stephen Sondheim often composes the rhythm of his text before composing the pitches and harmony. Which is probably a good approach when doing comlex counter point melodies of different texts.

[@roberacevedo8232]

Dr Jaco Gran, I have learned so much about counterpoint with your videos. I’m practicing doing counterpoint with a cantus firmus every single day. Thank you so much for your work.

[@granttherock9121]

These “How to” video are great! Please continue! It is the perfect way to show how to the apply theory that you teach.

[@davidungercomposer]

Your videos are always very much to the point, clear and pedagogical. It's a great channel to follow. I've already made my first effort in composing a three part Canon following your examples and was quite pleased with the result, for which I owe a lot to you. Thank you for that!

[@JacobGran]

Happy to hear it, thank you!

[@davidungercomposer]

​@@JacobGranThis video reappeared in my feed today and I am happy to report that I did continue my studies in canon to the point that the Gloria Patri of my Magnificat, that I composed as my final assignment and got high praise for in the composition course that I took at Luleå University in 2023, was actually composed as a perpetual canon!

[@jasperiscool]

Wonderful playing by mr. Rondeau. ♥

[@bryangan3629]

Really looking forward to the completion of this playlist!!!

[@DevilCouldCare]

Great video! One tip I learned from Victoria Williams is to compose 4 verses instead of 3. This way there are more combinations of 3 parts. Also some planning is needed when exiting the canon that the two-part counterpoint is also of good quality.

[@AxeTangent]

Your videos are some of the best at showing just how important voice independence was to European art music and how that priority led to developments we take for granted, like chords. I think this gets glossed over too much and it’s a shame. Voice independence isn’t the only way of doing music, but we have hundreds of years of people thinking about this stuff in incredible detail. It is much more approachable that way than as a “correct” way of doing music.

[@Johnwilkinsonofficial]

it strikes me _as not at all_ beyond beethoven to tell a priest to go to hell. 😄

[@SayceBuckleyFreak]

the short canon worksheet is a great idea! !

[@yadinmichaeli12]

Thank you so much! amazing lessons i really appreciate :)

[@leonhardeuler6811]

When you cover fugues, are you going to do separate videos on different contrapuntal techniques (inversion, fugue, augmentation, diminution, stretti)? As an aside, a couple of Bach and Beethoven fugues uses all these techniques: D sharp Minor Book 1, hammerklaiver, op 131, BWV 77, Art of Fugue, Grosse fugue, C sharp Major Book 2, Beethoven op 123 etc.

[@JacobGran]

Yes, separate videos. And thank you, I am looking for examples from real music! I have enough to go on, but more are definitely invited. Honestly I could write the whole course around the Art of Fugue, but I want to keep things interesting with different repertoire.

[@leonhardeuler6811]

@@JacobGran You could write the entire course on BWV 853 (D sharp minor book1)!! One of my favorite fugues, and Beethoven's best example of florid melody/counterpoint, is the 24th variation from op 120 (Diabelli)

[@andrewtessman9921]

I like how the trumpets are A415, albeit Beethoven being mostly an A440 composer (as per the piano example at 4:27).

[@NidusFormicarum]

First of all - such canons are not made for the listerners, but for the singers. About being too repetative and boring, I think there is another principle and that is to use inner imitation. If you use imitation between the lines that will distract the ear a little bit and elevate the over-all feeling of being stuck. You might think that this would make a canon even more repetatrive and boring to listen to, but in fact only the opposite is true, since the complexity will make the canon more interesting to listen to. I have used this principle myslef several times. (Of course there are other benefits of using imitation as well - you create more unity musically and it is easier to construct a convincing form.) A great example of this is Bach's canon on the unison for two violins on the top over the given base line in Ein Musicalisches Opfer. Voice crossing are of course mandatory - otherwise, you will be too limited when you contructue your canon and it will sound way, way too sqaure to listen to.

[@وهجالضحى-و9ت]

Amazing thank you so so so so so so much

[@pseudotonal]

The trumpets play the final G in the second phrase as a Bb.

[@tonio3375]

Hey! Thanks a lot for all of your videos! I have a quick question: how long should I spend on each of the Species Counterpoint stages? A few days, weeks or maybe 20 C.F.s? Thanks!

[@JacobGran]

Great question. From what I know about the way the species were taught in the 18th century, the student would work on one species at a time as homework between lessons with their teacher. Attwood marked the dates in his papers when studying counterpoint with Mozart, and they apparently met frequently (but not every day) in the summer of 1785. I would recommend composing between 4-6 exercises in each species of two-voice counterpoint before moving on. That would be two or three cantus firmi, at least one in major and minor, above and below. Joseph, the student character from Gradus ad Parnassum, composed above and below six different cantus firmi in each of the useable modes, but in some chapters even the fictional characters moved on before finishing every mode. 20 CFs in the same species would be well past the point of diminishing returns, and you can always come back to the earlier species after learning the later ones.

[@tonio3375]

@@JacobGran Wow I was not expecting such a thorough reply! I can't thank you enough for your help both for the study schedule and the videos! I'm thinking that I'll adopt the 18th century approach, set up a calendar for your videos every couple of days and do each species exercise at least 4-6 times in between. And I'll get that book. And I'll binge all your patreon content. Sounds like a neat plan to me! Another quick question, as far as I understood, modes used to be quite different back in the day, so would you recommend doing the exercises in all 7 "modern" modes, like Joseph did? Thanks again!

[@JacobGran]

@@tonio3375 IMO Fux's modal exercises are not even the best way to learn modal counterpoint, if that is your goal. Most authors in the species tradition after Fux abandon the modes in favor of the major/minor system, and if you want to learn 16th century style counterpoint I would recommend Jeppesen's book on Counterpoint (especially the first section on the history of counterpoint and the modes), instead.

[@tonio3375]

@@JacobGran Great thank you very much! Will look into that once I get through major/minor counterpoint from your videos!

[@christopherheckman7957]

I guess you could also have said that the only way to make a perpetual canon not sound so repetitive is to make it not perpetual or not a canon. It's kind of like complaining that water is wet.

[@JacobGran]

Exactly.

[@deltash6318]

How can I make a Draft Score in MuseScore?

[@yoavshati]

have 3 voice parts and just copy paste there might be a way to do it automatically, but I don't know how edit: there are linked staves, but I don't think you can put a delay on them

[@LucasHagemans]

1:46 Bar 14 should be a B flat. Or the trumpet should play a G but I it probably can't go that low. Actually it should have been sung anyway since it has a text...

[@unjourdef2]

Your usual Bb Trumpet can go down to E, so I guess the score should be showing a Bb, good catch

[@JacobGran]

Yeah Beethoven definitely wrote G. These performers pitched the whole thing down to F minor, and maybe the F was too low (then why pitch it down?). In any case I like supporting Creative Commons musicians, which is why I went with this recording.

[@leonhardeuler6811]

Beethovens canon reminds me of Bach G minor fugue from book 2

[@JacobGran]

That’s my favorite from the 48! I’m planning on doing a whole video just analyzing that one.

[@leonhardeuler6811]

@@JacobGran Mine too! Listen to B-Flat Major Fugue from book 1, its very similar: the countersubject almost exactly quotes the G minor fugue! Also, B flat is the parallel to g minor, coincidence? I think not.

[@leonhardeuler6811]

@@JacobGran Also if you like that G minor fugue listen to Buxtehude: 140, 149, 150 BuxWV 140 (D minor): kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXK5dKSvlJuNb6M 149 (G minor): kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2iTfX6Om5uqrdk 150 (G minor): kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmqqnZuBpdhjobc

[@caterscarrots3407]

@@leonhardeuler6811 I've heard that fugue and even played it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to have 2 subjects, it seems to be a very short double fugue. There's first subject 1 at the beginning and end of the fugue, but then, what would be countersubject 1, the melody with the repeated notes, seems more suiting to call subject 2, as it's what brings in the modulations while the other voices move in parallel motion with the sixteenth note part of subject 1.

[@chessematics]

This was at unison. Is there anything special to be done when it's not at unison? Say it's at a 3rd. Could be any diatonic 3rd...so how does it work then?

[@argie9914]

What's a good resource for learning to write fugues? Books or videos.

[@JacobGran]

This new imitative counterpoint playlist is going to be going over fugue very systematically, and I'm using too many resources to list all of them here. So I would say wait for those videos to come out; I will name check the important resources as they come up.

[@Fordy-Delta]

Beethoven causally experiencing requiem in the front image

[@وهجالضحى-و9ت]

More about how to compose music

[@juwonnnnn]

👏

[@gepmrk]

Mate you haven’t lived until you’ve told a priest to go to hell.