How To Evaluate Your Commander Deck's Power Level | Untitled Magic: The Gathering Podcast #1

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

If you'd like to watch Olivia's Commander gameplay channel, you can do so here: www.twitch.tv/affinityartifacts or just follow her at: twitter.com/goberthicks

[@jdangel98]

"Ovivia" lol

[@nathantripathy]

Instead of arbitrary numbers I use a different shorthand question. "What turn can your deck win on?" "Or what turn does your deck usually win on?" The question assumes, barring any interference, is your deck virtually guaranteed to win within 10 turns (anything longer and nobody really knows when, which means the deck is mid to lower power). The responses almost always tell you about where the power is overall. Ex. "I have a t3 infinite combo." "Can my deck win on turn 5? Sure. But it never has before " "If nobody stops me I will probably win on the." In my experience too, often times decks can vary in overall power level, but a weaker deck can still be fun if it has ways to hang with other decks. If your opponent says they can combo out by turn 3, the table needs to have decks fast enough to answer that. If instead, a deck could win on turn 6 or 7 the table knows that, even if power levels vary, you can get up and running at a more leisurely pace while focusing more on board development and less on surviving through each turn.

[@Spckeck]

I've always wondered what you slot in for Darkest hour in your Teysa deck.

[@AlaskaDog907]

Hey, there was a video where you talked about growing your hair out because of a book cover. I want to check those books out but cant remember the name of the series or find that video again. Ty!

[@kilbar1366]

@@nathantripathy щщ

[@Mwarrior1991]

I love how Liliana is over Olivia's shoulder sitting in the same pose as her all through this.

[@troublesuiter]

That's kind of how you have to sit in a big chair

[@corsel6911]

You put an 'L' in her name

[@AuraSight24]

@@corsel6911 *Liviana

[@TemporalOnline]

@@corsel6911 Lolivia

[@fraser7211]

@@corsel6911 Oliviana

[@lordbattlefield]

Just out of curiosity, where are these shocklands that cost 4 bucks. Because I would love to get some of them....

[@GeelsProduction]

@@SomeJustice19k you're confused as to what a shockland is

[@jrRabet]

horizon lands are not shock lands. also, i remember shock lands dropping to around 5 bucks after the guilds of ravnica allegiance set was out for a bit. i knew shocks would always hold value so i stocked up. i just wish i hadn't sold my arclight pheonixes when they were cheap.

[@Sparta2388]

Came here to say this, lol. What? Tell me where to find these. :'(

[@Deathangel1919]

@@SomeJustice19k modern horizons has pain lands, lands that cost life to produce colored mana. Aka "horizon lands" after horizon canopy; and the fact that they differ from true pain lands in that they can draw you a card as their ancillary effect rather than producing colorless mana

[@jrRabet]

@@Sparta2388 you missed your chance i'm afraid. prices are lowest after a reprint. lots of people opening packs means more supply, means less demand, means lower prices. once everyone that is willing to sell cheap is gone, the price begins to steadily rise, at least for staple cards.

[@pedroyoshinaga]

with this video i could finally understood why i get frustrated, loads of times, when i play games. The mentality of the other people is very important to consider. Keep up with the great work professor, thank you

[@ZanZerejin]

After listening to this I have realized how great my playgroup is. We try and match the powerlevel of each others decks with similar powerlevels and we don't play them too often. Example: I have a grixis Nicol Bolas themed deck with extra turns (as it has a lot of planeswalkers) with Vial-smasher and Ludvic (partner commanders) as my commanders. I know that if I hit a few extra turns spells in a row that people will get bored. So if I play it and win, I wont touch it again for the rest of that day. The same goes for the others too.

[@Yugioh9669]

I agree with this. I have a pretty good play group and I have a few commander decks, I have an atraxa infect deck that I don’t play because I know it’s not fun for anyone else. We’ve all made our own commander decks from scratch, and I think we’re all pretty equal. We all make sure we don’t go over the top. No infinite combos and what not. Some of us have CEDH decks, but we absolutely do not play them at the kitchen table. I think it takes a good play group to have good and equal commander decks

[@jamespooh2]

I wish I had you all's playgroups.

[@TraucerDaUrbania]

Same, I have a Baral Counterspells deck that I get the one win in with then pack away unless someone actually wants to play against, or think they're hot stuff.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

I have a cEDH playgroup we just GO OFF K'rrik infinite combo Zur Doomsday Meren Smokestack Bant Flicker And Prossh We have a lot of fun with our decks though, when everyone is playing cEDH its not boring

[@elijahlaino5436]

I have a similar situation with my Narset Turns deck, I'll only play it if my other decks are getting immediately shut down or I'm playing against other competitive decks, and if the case is the former, I'll only play Narset once, get that win, and then put her away for the rest of the day.

[@sethb3090]

I remember playing against a Contamination once. I looked over at the Elves guy and asked him, "If you had green mana, could you take that thing out?" He said yes, so I cast Spectral Searchlight and gave him a green mana so he could Naturalize the thing.

[@Sybato]

Did he not have any mana dorks elves? Contamination says it only affects land

[@joel17721]

@@Sybato maybe Creature removal before that

[@hitmonkey2984]

​@@joel17721 maybe just not pulling the dorks. Sometimes I don't even play with the mana generators of a tribe. It has pros and cons.

[@DMASupport]

I really like the “Giving other people” your deck aspect of the conversation. I have done this with my playgroups and it helps people realize how I build my decks and where the “fun” is to be had, but also gives me a good perspective of how they look across the table.

[@jakeapplegate6642]

Zachary Van Kanegan we did a blind swap at a pod in my LGS a couple weeks ago and it was very enlightening. I gave 3 of my mono colored decks to my opponents (krenko, mob boss, ezuri, renegade leader, Shirei, shizo’s caretaker) and one of them let me play his Chandra tribal deck. It was sweet to see people’s faces when they see some cool cards and like you said “find where the fun is to be had”. Seeing my own decks playing against each other was interesting.

[@DMASupport]

Jake applegate I’m still trying to get my playgroup to play 4 of my decks against each other to see how they perform. I’m in the bout discussed where I’m the individual with 7 decks whereas the rest of my playgroup has one or two.

[@jakeapplegate6642]

Zachary Van Kanegan I thought it only fair that I play one of their decks if I’m making them play mine blind. Most of the people at my LGS only have 2-3 decks together at any given time. I have 10 or so decks. I have tried to take decks apart and optimize the ones I want to play.

[@ntsmith2000]

I went to a Thursday Commander Night at my LGS but I definitely got the sense that most players were aiming for turn 3-4 combo victories. When I told them I don't have competitive EDH decks, they replied, "Neither do we." I didn't believe that when I saw individual cards valued over $150.

[@imperialtutor8687]

there assholes that play in bad faith. just avoid those all together

[@BerryMcockiner2024]

Lol if they spent 1k on a deck it’s definitely competitive territory

[@Peterphonetube]

@@BerryMcockiner2024 not at all.

[@Peterphonetube]

Cedh is something else as an expensive deck. Check out the video about cedh of the prof and guest talking about what cEDH is.

[@lassehoffmann625]

@@BerryMcockiner2024 most cedh decks are way more expensive, but price is not why they are good, expecially since most cedh players are extremely proxy friendly, we dont care about power we care about extremely optimised decks, there are so many expensive cards we just dont play

[@davidhobbs6292]

My favorite house rule for a bit was if you go infinite, you win, but everyone else finishes the game and you get to sit out the rest of said game. People stopped running infinite cheese because watching other people play fun commander games from the sidelines sucked. (Mike didn't mind... he'd just talk smack about being in the winner circle drinking.) Now it depends on the playgroup.

[@exiledhero3791]

At my LGS, this happens so much that everyone agrees “fuckin’ Robert” because he infinites and scoops in response. Really fun dude though, until he casts cyc rift, Teferi’s protection, and floats enough to cast stasis right after while we’re all tapped out so we all just choose to scoop to get one more game in before the store closes.

[@kalierdarkekd]

one thing I would do if I pulled off a stupid early win, I'd go "Ok, can you stop me right now? otherwise I "win", remove this card from the game, and we keep playing"

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

I mean I shouldn't get punished for infinite mana when it's so easy. It just replaces mana ramp in certain decks. Infinite damage and stuff sure. But then my 10 card or less krenko combo with a commander that can table wipe a fresh table at turn 5 through 8 should be similsr. And that doesn't go infinite just grows exponentially.

[@JohnS-pg6nm]

Wow, Olivia Gobert-Hicks has some awesome ideas that I hadn't considered before. Great guest and great conversation. The idea of judging decks by "what turn can this go off" (for decks that aren't just infinite combo), power level side-boards, giving your deck to a friend so you play against it, and of course just talking.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

One of my favorite power level comments I ever had was, "I will almost certainly surprise kill someone if the game goes for 7-8 turns, then die the next turn from the backlash.". That's how you do it, no power level ranking system, just an explanation of what your deck does and what you expect to happen paired with honest personal reflection. And, for the record, that's exactly what happened.

[@Kantharr]

This! Power levels seems so arbitrary and opinionated to me so I prefer to describe what the deck does. Like I have a Yuriko deck that has ways to make ninjas unblockable and have answers like counter spells or tap down cards. I also have a Farideh deck that has all the red/blue/colorless dice rolling matters deck that only roll dice and doesn't really win because it's a fun gimmicky deck.

[@B1gLupu]

Best thing about cEDH is that there are only 2 powerlevels; Yes it's cEDH and No, it isnt cEDH Makes the gameplay much more pleasant.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

@@B1gLupu You mean, best thing about cEDH is there's only one power level: cEDH. Honestly sounds pretty boring to me. For most of us, the best thing about EDH is that we can play at a dozen different power levels across a dozen different games. There's, honestly, nothing more pleasant than knowing you're going to lose because you're playing something so janky it'll never actually win, so you can just focus on doing silly things without worrying about distractions like trying to win.

[@B1gLupu]

@@jaredwonnacott9732 I mean what I said. There are different strategies, some which are better than not, but I've always thought cEDH to be a mindset and approach thing. Either you are trying fully to win regardless of budget, card preference and tastefulness of strategy, or you are not. So its a binary thing, either you are doing that or you are not. So the powerlevels of the scale are "Yes" and "No", with "No" being all the casual decks. If you want to play something janky, go do that in other formats, unless you are absolutely sure that it could actually be really powerful. There are people who brew stuff in cEDH, and unlike in casual, people actually care to read those decklists since there is thought behind the work. Commander is a game first of all, and personally I think people doing other things than trying to win cheapens the experience, so I avoid casual tables at all cost. People playing not to win feels like I'd start a chess game and my opponent throws a pair of Aces on the table, since obviously Aces beats a King. Just silly nonsense.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

@@B1gLupu Once again you've misspoken. You meant to say that you believe cEDH is a competition first and foremost. Saying it is a game does not imply that there are winners or losers or that there is any objective other than fun. Playing house is a game. Ring around the Rosie's is a game. Keepy Uppy is a game. One could easily argue playing with Legos or singing karaoke are games. You saying that EDH is a game just supports the argument that winning is secondary to fun. And if everyone has fun, the game objective is met. Some people really struggle with having non-competitive fun. I understand that. I really enjoy competition and the challenge of it, so it makes sense that some people can get caught up in that and find the most joy that way. I've got very competitive decks that I could play with you and you'd be able to have fun. They aren't my favorite, but I have them because I respect the perspective of those I play with. Most EDH players are more like me, though, and having an exciting, interesting, unusual, or unexpected game is more important than everyone being optimally competitive.

[@Pilsnerp1c]

Olivia is an excellent guest. I know Kenobi is only able to film twice or three times a year, but I really enjoy this format and hope you continue doing face to face podcasts with other people from the community. Thanks for the videos Prof.

[@bobdylanlovr69]

Ovivia*

[@irlylikecanada]

Hey- thanks for acknowledging that (most) cEDH folks don't look to pubstomp! We really just want a competitive game, and it's no fun for anyone if deck levels at a table are vastly different.

[@goberthicks]

I used to think that, and I was wrong. Everyone I've met in cEDH has been delightful, and it's unfair that I have painted cEDH with that brush in the past when that wasn't the case. Thanks for watching!

[@irlylikecanada]

@@goberthicks thank you for being cool and willing to re-evaluate!

[@prufrock1977]

I’m perfectly fine with your perspective, but I’ve had personal experiences with people who do want to bully lower tier decks. I hate those guys, and they give you a bad name.

[@kylepereira5672]

affinityartifacts i like to blame this on the command zone saying that we play spikey decks ;)

[@enoeht]

@@prufrock1977 Your personal experience is, of course, perfectly valid. I'm sorry that you have had those situations, but it really doesn't reflect the cEDH community as whole. Most cEDH players, especially ones that are actively involved in the community via Discord etc are not the sort of people who would sit down to bully or pubstomp a casual table, and in fact often embrace the casual playstyle and have decks of that power level as well. The bad apples are just that, bad apples. The unfortunate, immature exception and not the rule.

[@zacharywiesel900]

I find that a scale is not always ideal, especially a 1-10 scale as no one realistically will classify their deck as a 4 or less. I feel like the jank/casual/focused/optimized/competitive discussion let's you get to a better understanding of power.

[@sethb3090]

I have a deck that's definitely a 3-4, but not really much use for it as I never play anyone running at that power.

[@B1gLupu]

Only scale that works is cEDH scale. There are 0s and 1s. Either it is or it isnt.

[@soorian6493]

Had a great time watching auto generated captions have a stroke transcribing Olivia's name

[@DylanSweeney]

The best way that I've found to determine power level (and to be honest i'm only 3:22 into the video so you may say this, but I wanted to type it before I forget lol) is to ask what everyone's win condition is. Your win condition usually determines how you play the game. If the answer is "idk kinda just beat down eventually" probably around a 5 or lower? if the answer is "craterhoof around turn 8" then that's maybe closer to a 7" if its "combo asap" then closer to a 10. Usually people only get salty when the lose, so if they know how they're going to lose, and can prepare, and I've noticed less salt.

[@lefloidNemesis]

Wait craterhoof on 8 is a 7? Shouldn't most green decks get him out turn 6 or 7?

[@Jeramiahstool]

Paryas Ruler some people don’t put as much tamp or tutors cuz they want their deck to be more fair if the other decks aren’t as aggressive

[@lefloidNemesis]

@@Jeramiahstool behemoth is an 8 drop so playing him on turn 8 means you didn't ramp at all. And ramp is an inherintly green thing.

[@DaBoyChinWonder]

@@lefloidNemesis I mean, my Yarok deck doesn't play Craterhoof, because I feel it's too easy. I like going off and giving people a chance to respond.

[@Deathangel1919]

@@lefloidNemesis most decks have many ways to counteract creature based win conditions

[@daredewley9231]

You did a great job of conversing and letting Olivia talk this episode Prof! Vince doesn't get that lucky.

[@lucasenraraujo]

I agree with Olivia. Asking how long it takes for a deck to goldfish a win is a good way of measuring power level. And I'm also for the addition of a sideboard to allow not only those small changes to powerlevel, but the use of wish effects. I also feel like some people don't understand that the fun in games lies (at least to me) in being with friends and feeling like it's anyone's game. Yeah, someone might have the advantage at some point or have a slightly more powerful deck, but, as long as the others don't feel hopeless, it can still be fun.

[@jpickens189]

I find the pilot of a deck has far more impact on how it behaves than most people think.

[@hitmonkey2984]

No kidding. And the amount of alcohol, for that matter.

[@ScottofOakland]

@@hitmonkey2984 Just because you have the infinite combo or the win, doesn't mean you HAVE to deploy it if it makes the game less fun.

[@gregrothschild4755]

​@@ScottofOaklandthough also, it's kinda boring to sit with a win in your hand for 3 turns. If you're not going to play the infinite combo, just slot out a combo piece

[@ScottofOakland]

@gregrothschild4755 also just read the room. If you have the clear win, make sure doing the thing isn't making the game less fun with your playgroup. "I have a possible win here, is everyone good with me trying to go for it here?" They still might be able to interact, but a little communication going a long way. "Can you wait a turn? I have something fun on my next turn."

[@asthmeresivolisk3129]

​@@ScottofOaklandIf you don't play your win condition and purposely hold back, you're telling me you're fine with wasting my time. Either play to win or leave, the game isn't fun if I you're not going to present an actual challenge or try. Additionally, we can start another game sooner than slogging on for no good reason. It's like playing basketball or board game but your opponents don't try. It's insulting and annoying. I might not win, you're probably better, but how can you enjoy your win if there's no obstacle to overcome?

[@kyleellis9177]

I have to be honest... One of your top 3 videos ever! you had a perfect balance of input and listening proff. its really nice to see someone actually take criticism well and incorporate it.

[@TheXcizer]

How about “dies to removal” as a podcast name

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

New episode of Dies To Removal next week :)

[@TheXcizer]

Tolarian Community College I hope your cohost finally starts his own KZbin channel

[@darkshot741]

@@TheXcizer kzbin.infovideos

[@giancarlofernandez9521]

darkshot741 I think he was being sarcastic.

[@diegoguillenaguilar4358]

@@darkshot741 HE HAS A KZbin CHANNEL!?!?

[@Hyakugojyuuich]

The sideboard is a great idea. The podcast also made me realize one more reason why i love my sliver deck. Depending on the powerlevel of the group and what they can or can not handle, i change my 5c sliver commander and even without taking out a card i change the power of the deck dramatically.

[@lucamorelli3927]

At my LGS when we have commander tournaments you can bring any kind of deck you want (it's a tournament and you win real prizes). There's one simple rule: if you kill all your opponents instead you get the first place and leave the table. This way the other players can continue the game and enjoy their 1 hour match even if they actually lost at turn 3. It worked out well and I highly recommend this even during casual games

[@kdc0330]

We do this as well. We use the term "Ascended" to call those players who killed off everyone in early game. Glad to know other people do this kind of thing as well.

[@agentkhaine2204]

This sounds better than places that try punishing people for winning.

[@kwikdraw7332]

Both LGS I frequent have similar rules. If a player demonstrates a winning loop, the rest of the players can agree to play for 2nd, but it has to be unanimous. This is VERY rarely an issue, but occasionally you get a couple friends that agree beforehand that if one of them takes first, the other will refuse to continue to play and their friend will grant them second. While we highly discourage this, it does OCCASIONALLY happen. We also try our best to divide pods based on power levels of decks, but this doesn't always pan out unfortunately. Sometimes there's that one extra competitive player that gets thrown into a more casual pod, or that one extra casual player that gets the short straw and gets thrown into a competitive pod. We try our best to prevent this as much as possible, though.

[@LiamAnthony_]

I think what Olivia says about switching out certain cards based on the playgroup is really solid advice. I do something similar, as I run a Prossh deck with Food Chain - so I always keep a spare forest with the deck that I can swap Food Chain out with depending who I'm playing with. With new people, I'll often explain the combo, maybe play a game with it if they're cool, and if I manage to pull the combo off, then if I choose to play Prossh again I'll just switch out food chain. (This works two ways admitidally. With that combo gone, I'm less of a threat, and it means my deck is doing something a little different instead of just doing the same food chain combo again).

[@sethhellenbrand2531]

Finished the last half. Enjoyed these takes. Thanks Prof and Olivia Gobert-Hicks, please do similar chats in the future.

[@elijahdprophet]

Big fan of this video. At Commandfest I had a few games where I had an infinite win in hand and held it up because of the decks I was against. I'm here to see cool crap happen on the table, if its my cool crap and I win, great, if everyone gets to DO something cool its even better. Winning is definitely fun, but the act of playing is what I'm really at the table for.

[@Ezullof]

I think an important point is "tell me before what we're doing". In my experience, people usually really enjoy building decks. If you decide a theme, a power level or even a challenge, they'll build decks and be happy to play them, and they'll also explain their reasoning behind the way they build the deck.

[@ContainsMultitudes]

I for one welcome our untitled podcast overlords

[@BipolarDistortion]

Appreciate you mentioning people like me that only have one commander deck. Though I’m excited to hopefully finish building my second by the end of 2023.

[@kleedrac]

Outstanding discussion - thanks to the Prof and Ovivia for sharing it with us.

[@metalbrother2671]

I like Olivia's take about handing my friends my decks to see how fun it is to play against it. Will certainly try it with my friends!

[@mikebulmer9823]

I really like the idea of buying a precon deck and using that, especially with newer players or a group you are new to. I really feel like Commander is supposed to be very casual and just a bunch of people having a good time together for the most part. The idea of bringing in a power 10 deck and just smashing everyone before they do the same seems to defeat the purpose of the format.

[@KeeganMcKinney]

I learned from Command Zone that if you use the number system use this: Rank/Power Level: Turns: Competitive - (9 - 10) 1 - 4 Optimized - (7 - 8) 4 - 6 Focused - (5 - 6) 13 - Casual - (3 - 4) Jank - (1 - 2)

[@AR15UserRev1]

You should bring her back more often, funny, articulate and the discussion was great.

[@ra8784]

John C, I deem you a Simp!

[@QuicksilverSG]

Play to Win, an explicitly CEDH KZbin channel, published a list of Casual Commander guidelines. I think they summarize it well: * No infinite loop combos * No instant win cards * No mana-positive rocks (except Sol Ring) * No urestricted tutors costing less than 3 mana * No zero-cost counter spells * No off-color fetch lands * No cards valued over $100 The only point I'd differ with is card value which I think should be limited to $25 max.

[@stashmurphy5488]

Hey Professor, I've watched your videos for years now and never took the time to comment on how useful and informative each and every MTG subject you take the time to discuss is. Thank you so much for making these videos. From the new to returning players, and the die hard veterans too I think we all benefit from videos like these. Thanks

[@vodkablitz3242]

Super glad sideboards were mentioned, I've been down to 2 commander decks for a couple years now and found that having sideboards to either augment or lessen variance/power levels to be super useful. Even when I'm not playing with my regular groups and just in a random LGS, most people are super fine with it and it gives a decent amount of flexibility.

[@Donler]

19:33 "I haven't even tried it yet. Let's see what happens when I turn things sideways." New favorite quote! ^_^

[@blakelively3242]

I find most things I've read or listened to about commander discourse recently really exhausting, but I clicked on this video and I realize now I have an inherent trust of your content. I had the thought that even if I didn't vibe with what you were saying, you'd present it fairly and in good faith. Honestly, I thought this video has a lot of really cool ideas from both your guest and you and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for all the hardwork you and your channel do.

[@timdornaus]

really enjoyed this. always need more mtg podcasts to listen to while working or doing whatever. more pls

[@mattwufsus20]

I really like the idea of bringing a sideboard of sorts for power level to commander pods. I think everyone should do this, it's really harmless and is a discussion point between podmates, as in "hey, i brought these cards that i like and want to try out but tried these first, what do you think i should swap out?"

[@orufoin9005]

I really like this episode of Dies to Removal, Vince really got himself in shape :)

[@DVS57REBEL]

Im really happy to hear govers perspectives there fair and non bias. I sat down with gober once and thought my deck was casual, not enough i thanked the table for there time and found a spiker table.

[@ianbachli1323]

I play Ghave, Guru of Spores, but my goal was to not make it broken like it could be. Many people feel Ghave, as it it usually a pretty horrific stax/token deck. Instead of going this route, I decided to only allow my deck to make Saproling tokens. My playgroup loves it, and it's still very powerful.

[@DanieleMazzoni]

Loved that you left the initial mispronunciation bit, makes the conversation real from the start.

[@toxikblood]

I REALLY like the idea of a sideboard for the power level of the deck. I will start doing this.

[@BratkoCo]

This has been great food for thought. I believe we all have play groups that could benefit from watching this. I shared this video with my playgroup immediately. Thank you, Prof and Olivia!

[@shawnmyer2747]

I really appreciate someone saying 'I don't want to put a $20 bill in something just to make it a bit better.'

[@Litdaze92]

Come to Europe, they cost 10€ or less.

[@jacoblyda8695]

@@Litdaze92 Maybe, but what about shipping?

[@Litdaze92]

@@jacoblyda8695 usually doesn't surpass 5€ and I usually order a lot

[@hiddenleaf414]

What costs less?

[@federicotrezzi9169]

@@hiddenleaf414 basically playing commander here cost like three time less than in the US because the community is smaller and we don't have big store that try to impose a monopoly on prices of singles

[@jemjohnson5315]

I got 5 minutes into this video and went through all my edh decks to see which ones were the most powerful. Definitely different than I thought

[@Silvermankitty]

That facepalm when the prof said ovivia is the kind of reaction I live for with my terrible jokes! Great work sir!

[@tkd-absolver31]

I have an horribly disturbing monoblack discard deck, and constantly my friends are handing down to me some decks that they have builded so I can spare them the Chain of Smog treatment. I don't mind playing with other decks and from my perspective both are very fun.

[@Seuration]

I've watched most of your videos and just realized my favorite author has a sizeable section of your shelf in the background. Nice to know the Prof is a Terry Brooks fan. :P

[@dyrnwynski]

Trading decks is great! We distributed them randomly and called it deck roulette. It provides tons of play variety and its actually really fun to watch other people play your decks. It also takes a lot of social pressure off of combo or stax decks or other traditionally unfun archetypes because people tend to be more forgiving if they were rolled randomly to a random player.

[@fakeemojace4196]

A bit of a story For the last year my main decks were an Estrid enchantments, a K&T group hug and a Kadena Morph Deck (later I got an Aminatou blink) and my main deck was Estrid, the problem was that it wasn’t very fun to play against, It took turns too long and had no real win con, so instead for the sake of my friends I shifted focus mainly on Group Hug and Morph, the thing is, I love playing Enchantments, and neither one of the commanders allowed the use of them, so in the end my entire group is helping me to build a better enchantments deck, we shifted focus to a Tuvasa midrange and now it’s better

[@brethenolder9465]

I started out with the Estrid precon and had a great time with it, it was a ton of fun and I never made any real changes with it. I made a few decks later but still love enchantments, so recently I made a Zur the Enchanter control/pillowfort/politics deck, and it's an absolute blast and surprisingly budget friendly.

[@MassieveSIang]

Same here bro, absolutely love enchantments and always wanted to build an enchantment focused edh deck. Got to Estrid and played her online against my 2 friends a few times. Problem is they don't really enjoy it too much. How did you build that estrid deck? I made it a kind of pillowfort deck, with ofcourse landchantments and enchantresses. The problem they have is with the pillowfort theme, they don't like being able to do nothing with their creatures. My deck just keeps building pillowfort, drawing through my deck and looking for one of the few wincons in the deck. Just non stop draw.

[@jonarvaez8232]

Me and my friends swap decks once in a while and it's extremely fun. It's nice to see what someone else can do with your deck and vise versa. I highly recommend this.

[@Fibonacci4ever]

This sounds FUN

[@jonarvaez8232]

@@Fibonacci4ever definitely give it a try! It's totally worth it!

[@blacktongue1000]

When they say "sleeve up and play" do they like un-sleeve all their commander decks when not in use?

[@Bladezeromus]

A few of our players have a sort of cube. The have all their commanders in top loaders and a core like 40- 60 card package of lands, ramp, and card draw for several commanders in similar colors and they just add in the last however many they need when they play.

[@baileynicholson251]

Same

[@GrundysGames]

This conversation was great. Love hearing Olivia talk commander. My playgroup never talks about power level. We just pull out our decks and play. We do know that some commanders that hit the table really need our attention but other than that its all fun. I have about 19 to 20 commander decks, so if it's not new, we usually don't see the same commander each time we play. We also play maybe once a month if possible.

[@mc_v6237]

I think I´ll start playing commander. Looks like a fun format .

[@Zetimenvec]

Probably the best format, and nothing rotates.

[@MrBroFirst]

I have a problem with having more years of experience in Magic than my playgroup which led me to having a lot of "good" cards and "good" decks (T3-4W or Stax as examples). I saw that it wasn't the most fun experience for my friends and that it stomped them most of the time (even when they teamed up against me). I really liked this video, it led me to talk to my playgroup and create a sideboard for some of my favorite (and most powerful) decks.

[@lorenordeanjohnson]

I need to know where Prof is finding $5 shocklands.

[@Totescolin]

Must of been recorded before pioneer was announced

[@bantcm]

@@Totescolin Equally possible he either misspoke or simply doesn't closely track the price of all cards (who does). Possibly he last bought some around a year ago when they may have been around that price.

[@josephdurham4950]

hey prof thanks for the Tucson shout out. i can confirm there are over half a dozen LGS's in Tucson alone. didnt take long for me to find a regular pod.

[@erikmoore2918]

I literally laughed out loud, “ we know this is your infinite combo, you play it every time...”

[@project_swift]

Olivia!! Amazing. I share a lot of views with you on deck power levels 👍 Keep it up!

[@randomchineseguy]

Group: “Let’s keep it casual.” Me: Turn-1: swamp, dark ritual, sol ring, Commander Rankle. Attack and discard Ulamog. MP2: lotus petal, reanimate. Group: “...”

[@westmafiasector8136]

randomchineseguy ulamog the ceaseless hunger is only good because of its cast trigger, and since you’re not casting it you’d only get a big creature that mills. Ulamog the infinite gyre cannot be reanimated and is just so much better in commander. You’d be better off reanimating a void winnower or it that betrays

[@randomchineseguy]

West Mafia Sector It’s casual play!

[@fulgurobaboon1321]

You must be fun at parties

[@baltosstrupelos302]

Land, swords to plowshares?

[@bernardowermuth369]

Turn 1 K'rrik + Blood Celebrant though

[@agentkhaine2204]

Glad Olivia understands cEDH tries to be specific on what’s happening! People often fail to realize that cEDH players try looking for competitive players to play competitive games the way casual players try looking for casual players to play casual games. I do hope she and other members of the RC reach out and try interacting with different levels of the community in regular gameplay. I think it would make for more informed decisions. And thank you to prof for speaking for people who may only have one deck, focusing on building a few decks well! Figuring out how to help people in that situation is better than just shunning them, especially for those who have to travel a bit to their LGS.

[@B1gLupu]

Considering they Banned FlashHulk after the cEDH community requested it, I think we are in good hands ❤

[@KumaKaori]

9:45, There's this draftable Commander Set coming out this year, yeah? Maybe we'll see those Battlebond Lands again there? Pretty Please Wizards????

[@Cinomod6066]

I want the other colors of them as well would LOVE to have a golgari one

[@Totescolin]

Enemy colors before reprints please.

[@crazygermn]

@@Totescolin why not both?

[@guyatanosavia8487]

Moderate to me means a few things 1.) No infinite combos 2.) No stax (stax requires decently heavy interaction to play against and opposing modest decks won't have reliable answers to stax decks) 3.) Something that can't really win with until you're beyond turn 5 or 6 But then that's just based on my pods opinions so

[@dom19945]

"Sleeve up and have a good time." Giggity?

[@tomharris5649]

3.77777777 ?

[@barry_crisp]

This is a very insightful video, I just tried out EDH in paper recently and I built a budget tasigur deck and violently underestimated how unfun he can be with Villainous Wealth and Regrowth effects, and toning it back has made the games a lot more fun.

[@Ifeno]

When someone says "Crypt, Vault, Monolith" I don't think the Monolith in question is "Basalt". ;)

[@thomashorvath9455]

thank you so much for this video. i was on the verge of quitting EDH for good. i'm new to the format and have had a lot of bad experiences. this helped me understand so much. now when i go to my LGS i know what to look for and know how to tell people the power level of my deck. you rock thank you sir.

[@adastic]

This was a good podcast, please keep them coming

[@philippereeves9241]

Shoutout to Olivia for her brillant performance on your channel! You two have great synergy and we would love to see more of her!

[@catboy_on_main]

The way you said Edgar Markov gave me the same sort of panic attack as when the teacher used to call me out for having my phone out in class.

[@ferdithetank7535]

*Vietnam flashbacks intensify*

[@thablackdragon]

This was such a good watch. I don’t usually comment on KZbin videos but this was a real good watch. I’ve been playing Magic for about 8 years now and I have never been able to have this question answered. It’s good to know that even you guys weren’t entirely sure how to answer this question. I’ve been to shops and I’ve been asked “what’s your deck power level” and each time I’m like “uh...6....ish” lol thanks for the video this was great!

[@proteus404]

My command play group is like "No Homers" except it is 'No Tutors" You can have one.

[@NihlusArtanis]

My friends and I play remotely over discord. We span several states and timezones so we had to figure out a way to stay in touch and play. It works great and was fairly inexpensive to acquire the setup.

[@THEMithrandir09]

A note on stax specifically 31:00 : Most of you probably already fought through a staxed board state and probably even won! Remember that one game knights episode where there was a Sun Titan with a fate counter and an oblivion stone? That's a classic stax lock! Don't believe me? Look up what smokestack the namesake of the archetype does... How about casting wrath of god every turn? Is that stax? How about having Aura Shards and Enchanted Evening out in a deck that can always make a creature token at instant speed? Is that stax? Stax pieces usually are symmetric in their effect, meaning they hurt every player equally. They really beat players that only have a single strategy, e.g. only lands for mana, only play creatures, only ETB triggers, etc. This just goes to show that even casual decks can be glass cannons. All your effects are ETBs? Suddenly a torpor orb shuts you out of a game. If that's the case, run non ETB trigger removal for artifacts(and everything else) or diversify your strategy. Contamination/Winter Orb shuts you out? Run artifact mana like the signets and talismans or colorless removal like Oblivion Stone or Scour from Existance. Static Orb is a problem? Wait a turn and on EOT before your turn blow it up with a disenchant and watch yourself take that game. Your opponent plays Urza? Well then don't wait for him to play effectivley 4 Mox Sapphires and 2 stax pieces, but kill him on sight, or even better, counter him. Furthermore stax pieces by themselves are how all things should be; perfectly balanced. They hurt every player equally. What makes them strong are 2 things: 1. Knowing when they drop and that they will. This is the same with "inverse stax" like show and tell. You can prepare your hand and your deck for the stax pieces, to either be able to ignore them or shift your strategy with them. If your opponents cannot cope, you are at an advantage. 2. Breaking parity. When people say stax should be banned, what they really mean is that cards like Urza should be banned. They are too good at breaking parity on stax and even inverse stax like hallowed fountain. Breaking parity should require some sort of setup, not just a single card. Not saying Urza should be banned; not every good deck needs to run Urza. Please do ban Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt, as EVERY GOOD DECK MUST PLAY THESE CARDS WHICH IS ONE MAJOR RULE OF WHY CARDS ARE BANNED! What I am saying is, run more interaction and removal --> have more fun.

[@kylepereira5672]

THE Mithrandir09 i do not agree with these mana rocks bans, certain decks, yes do yes them, but some decks don’t use them, and soemtimes that makes a fun challenge in finding that one card that should replace the mana vault

[@michaelloftis2349]

Great stuff! Love the teysa mention. Your Teysa guide got me into the format a few years back, and I’m glad it did! Ps-I still watch that guide periodically I love that video

[@GacNac]

I love how commander is becoming this thing with a bunch of unwritten rules. The fact that it's very cliquey at some local game stores has also discouraged quite a few people I know. If the format is indeed casual and social, people should chill out a bit and stop criticizing from 10 different angles. There is a reason games have rules, so people don't feel they are being cheated. With how different it is for each playgroup and person people are bound to always get hurt, and it either needs to be chosen commander is super casual and the rules are created by groups of people OR the ban list needs to be updated to reflect the needs of a game

[@DVS57REBEL]

Abolish the RC edh aside 8 of the p9 and anti cards needs no bans. Ppl are self policing. There multiple other formats with never ending bans and feel bads. Commander the final frontier let the wild wild west have fun

[@enoeht]

People in general sort themselves into clique's or groups by default, as that's sort of human nature as pack animals, but I do agree that Commander has a subtext of unwritten rules. A big issue with this, in my opinion, is that players (whether at an LGS or in a home playgroup) don't actually talk or set expectations as much as they should, and that leads to a lot of unspoken, unresolved issues. You can have a constructive conversation about group needs etc while still being chill and social, in fact mastering these kinds of conversations can lead to a group that is even MORE chill and social, where there is a clear expectation. It takes work and honesty, and I think that is what is being advocated for more and more as the format grows and gains more exposure, many content creators all preach the same message "TALK TO YOUR PLAYGROUP", the better people get at that vital aspect of the game, the better Commander as a format will be.

[@gliath888]

If you want to have fun, ban all tutor effects. Tutoring destroys the very essence of EDH format since it effectively makes your deck super consistent, when in reality it should be way less so and more of a random chance you can get what you want. Proper draw engines and ramp is fundamental to a good deck build, and is how the game is built around, but tutoring means more or less, I win guaranteed if you don't have an answer.

[@DVS57REBEL]

@@gliath888 why dumb the game down with bans. Simpleton magic already exist, its called pokemon

[@gliath888]

@@DVS57REBEL ah. that's the elitist mentality i was expecting. classic. Why not just let the power nine in edh? why have a ban list at all then? lmfao

[@hikkisuki]

I love some of the ideas expressed here! I already include a 15 card sideboard to make my deck either more competitive or less competitive based on which play group I'm playing with. We put all of our decks in a row and roll a die to randomly choose a deck to play and you can't get your own deck. It makes for some fun games and a different perspective on deck building. P.S. I hate stacks

[@RaymondGan]

I usually aim for at least 9.....T H O U S A N D

[@enitsu-142]

Raymond Gan WHAT NINE THOUSAND !!!???

[@itsmr.rainbow3861]

IT'S OVER 9 THOUSAND!!

[@krummeldrachen8795]

Over 9000! Is the name of my LGS

[@elijahdavila3684]

@@krummeldrachen8795 That's an amazing LGS name

[@CaptainCBass]

It’s 8000 in the manga

[@michaelgibson4663]

I am glad to hear I am not alone in playing themes of cards that I like. I hear so much about meta that I thought there was no more casual playing

[@thrash208]

My LGS hosted free commander games and he'd often hand out prizes out of pocket usually just a couple packs or a full art foil sometimes both. Unfortunately it eventually attracted CEDH players. All the customers that went just to have fun eventually started to not show up. The LGS caught on and now doesn't hand out prizes and the CEDH players left. Now our playgroup is at a healthy state.

[@shawndiaz7528]

A good solution to this is simple. The problem came from incentivising players to win. Your LGS should incentivize people to show up if their goals are attendence and a casual atmosphere. Have players register for the event and draw names from a hat or using a program to give out little prizes.

[@tyusbuckley]

@@shawndiaz7528 or have a 10 dollar buy in and increase prize pool for the cedh people, and have free edh another day. ez

[@shawndiaz7528]

@@tyusbuckley OP said this is explicitly for a free Commander day

[@tyusbuckley]

@@shawndiaz7528 I ExPlIcItLy said have paid and free events for these 2 different groups of players.

[@MajesticHats]

Thumbs way up. This back and forth conversation is so worth the time.

[@MrTandtrollet]

To me good indicators of of high power level are: - Any of the 1-2 mana tutors (Diabolic, Demonic, Gamble, etc). - Uncompromized mana base (no "bad" lands) - Infinite Combos, extra turn spells - Able to win in 5 or less turns. - Staxs (not that this is high power on it's own but it punishes low powered decks very hard). I usually will not sit down and play against these decks as my only "real" deck is my silly foiled out Grixis Pirate deck. I just like Thematic tribal decks.

[@FizzleIsGaming]

Victor Pluntky so basically youre saying an experiment kraj deck is high power cuz it has a billion infinites even tho theyre all like 3+ card combos that rely on any single piece not dying?

[@MrTandtrollet]

@@FizzleIsGaming I guess extra turns should not fall under "high power" but rather boring to play against with low powered decks. But extra/infinite turns fall under the category of combo decks which are generally of decent power level soley based on the ability to win in a single turn,often ignoring things like board states and life totals. I.e. Not fun to play against with some "fair deck".

[@chasewarren9702]

I guess my Bosh, Iron Golem deck is high power because it runs gamble. Who would've guessed!

[@JonaxII]

No Bad Lands, just a Badlands.

[@jahnyguitah7999]

I disagree with you on stax pieces. There aren't many stax pieces that hate on casual decks, as most stax cards you see are dedicated to preventing high-powered combos from popping off too early.

[@gorramnelf]

When I want to play at my most modest I use a deck built from what I call my Ultimate Limited Collection boxes. I made ten boxes and put three boosters from every expansion into them dating back to Onslaught block and starting core sets at M10. I did this so friends who don't have as deep a collection as I do can work from a similar sized collection, and also to limit me to working with a smaller collection. It's really fun and you learn to squeeze advantage out of every corner you can.

[@djcochrane]

“Reliable. That’s not my decks.” Ditto... I may have the cards to get there, but I normally don’t override the theme or feel of the deck for it.

[@nharviala]

I run a ton of tutors in my decks... and almost always search for lands or ramp spells with them to make sure I don't get mana screwed. Makes me surprised, when I think about it, that I don't run Sylvan Scrying in any green deck when Demonic Tutor is basically black Scrying for me.

In my local game store we don't mind much power level... but we do have a criteria about what we call 'hate'. Decks with combos or locks which has no response to or troll decks. so we talk a lot about cards that generates 'hate' and should be taken out so the table can have a good time. We still end up with top tier decks being used, but without locking the game turn 2 or 3.

[@clearmenser]

"Play in such a way that people will want to play with you again."

[@jamesbuntain4772]

When I first started I learnt to play with decks that were definitely ranging from 6-9 out of 10 in terms of power and speed. This was across decks from control, stacks, combo, aggro, etc. What made that group work considerably well though was two things that I feel are the biggest points of commander. The politics at the table, as well as the mindset/personality of fun that every player brought to the table. No one played to win (not cEDH) they ultimately played for fun.

[@justanotherhuman7106]

I love the socks Professor 🧦

[@benkse2010]

I always keep my Frodo and Sam precons in my bag without fail! You never know when you need to play a chill game.

[@anselally4408]

Honestly, I think staxs players are well aware that their decks cause distress and I think they just don't see it as a problem.

[@fixdelythings]

We don't.

[@raphaeldean5801]

I posted a comment earlier about that. I have several mean decks mostly stax, all include some stax elements. I never outright say they are stax before the game but verify the tolerance for my bs. I mean Helix Pinnacle is a valid win con… even if it takes 20 turns…

[@asasinater13]

I think there’s a mix between some people who would just enjoy the game more if they embraced stax style play as a reasonable strategy to be against and stax players needing to be better at acknowledging the power level of their deck against the table. Like there are different levels of stax, and playing a stax deck that’s well-tuned and starts to lock down the board by turn 3 or 4 playing against decks trying to start going off around turns 7 or 8 is going to outplay everyone. Like I think part of why stax is such an unpleasant deck for people to play against because people misevaluate their stax power level and the tables sit unbalanced. I’ve played a good number interesting/fun games of commander at tables with stax players because we were sitting with the same power level and, as a table, able to interact with what the stax player was doing and often 2 other players would have a counterspell fight over the stax player’s pieces because of how they interacted with each others’ combos. Stax becomes unfun when people’s only fun comes from just playing low interaction games that don’t start in earnest until turns 5-6. And that isn’t like a “wrong” way to play commander, but it’s a different power level than most stax decks sit at just because of the CMC of most stax cards.

[@PiroMunkie]

@@asasinater13 I feel like the best "casual" stax playstyle is in an enchantress shell, tbh. Enchantress is low-key one of the strongest casual archetypes. It's slow enough that it can never really just pop-off in the early game, but it's extremely resilient and has a very strong engine once it gets going, and it doesn't have the stigma that traditional stax decks do. Not saying all enchantress decks are stax, but the archetype is so versatile outside of the base enchantress package that you can play it however you want. And no matter how you play it, the archetype as a whole never really feels unfair.

[@poilu146]

@@raphaeldean5801 that's the only thing i hate about some hard control or stax decks im okay with any bullshit you can pulll but god dont take 2 years to win jesus

[@mrwubzydx5337]

Very informative. I play with the same two people every week and I'm usually the winner. I don't think my deck is powerful at all, I just know it inside and out, and I know my limits and I know my plays. This is very helpful. I'll start keeping a sideboard, and get a precon or make a new one just in case they get bored again (which...sadly happens a lot). EDIT: That MTG Arena shade, damn. Love it :D

[@gyagyagyagyagyanana]

30 seconds in and she is like: " why am i here?"

[@ykl1277]

Oivia is a great communicator

[@fuckthisshit541]

I'm really glad that I'm not the only person who saw that.

[@MrRuff-cc3lg]

I enjoyed this discussion but the conversation really veered from evaluating power levels to ensuring playgroup compatibility. The best point mentioned was simply asking, how quickly does your deck go off? It would be cool to have a formal ranking system which I think is possible, even with 25+ years of cards.

[@RosylaStreamingNetwork]

Professor, what's the scouter say about his Commander's Power Level?!"

[@jamesloucka1952]

Focused Competitive Jank

[@JIWelles]

In my playgroup it is custom to reveal your commander forehand, so that they may or may not do some research. Otherwise, we do not have many houserules except maybe the recommended banlists or "keep it fun". This has been good enough for us. 👌🏻

[@NickBlakeJD]

I'm a cEDH player, so basically I like playing powerful decks while playing against others powerful decks. From my perspective, "feelsbadcards" like armageddon and in general MLD, winter orb and static orb are perfectly fine: you need to have the right boardstate to break the symmetry of these cards! Also they help to make the format different! So generally I don't like bans in commander, cause they risk to destroy good decks for no reason. Sisay and Arcum Daggson were hit to much for the ban of Paradox Engine! It's all about being able to talk to each other; a social contract between smart people! When I approach a new playgroup I ask what decks they have. If I understand that none of them has something like Thrasios/Tymna or Zur I'm happy to pull out my Kynaios and Tirone group hug deck or my Gishath "roar" tribal deck and I have fun with it! Then if they want to know more about cEDH I'm glad to share my experience about it. Pubstompers will continue to pubstomp other people even after any bans! The problem in a casual format like commander can be not in cards which are legal, but in people who play the format. That's my opinion! Forgive me for my bad English, Prof!