How to fix dark, muddy photography prints

[@alexandercarlsson]

I got my first printer today, canon pro-200.. my first print came out completely black. But now after some helpful tips, ICC profiles etc. My prints are coming out very accurate both in color and "exposure" 😁

[@lynsmith1096]

Very good tutorial Todd.

[@jeffsmith5565]

My pleasure. I’ve never “Thanked $” anyone on KZbin but I have gotten so much great information and valuable insight from your videos that I jumped at the opportunity. My recent solo photography trip to Death Valley (first ever and I’m 55 years old) was made so much better having watched many of your videos. Thank you very much.

[@j8rtUfh3evz]

Such an easy to listen to instructor with no hesitation or er-ing. Great video, I've learnt a lot.

[@PeteBreen]

Although way over my head at the moment, what an incredible tutorial. Thanks for the great video!

[@draughonc]

One of the best intros to getting prints to match close to your screen. If you are new to printing, I highly recommend starting with photo papers rather than matte to build your skills. The use of range mask in LrC is a great suggestion.

[@danbuchman7497]

Hi, good topic today. One suggestion that I’ve learned the hard way is to soft proof you photo “before” you buy your paper. This is especially important with either B&W or color because as you stated all papers are not created equal. If you download the ICC’s from different manufactures papers to determine even “if” a paper will be suitable. The other suggestion that A Adams said was for B&W paper (Adams printed in the darkroom), is to get a paper with a high Dmax to achieve the best tonality. Dmax is not something that is easy to get, but there are some sites that give guidance for inkjet papers. Again, excellent topic and presentation.

[@albertphillips447]

Wow, this was the tip I needed, and just in time too! I was working on a photo last night with the intention of printing some note cards, but the result was a dark mess. Your "Soft Proofing" tutorial turned a pile of throw-away cards into an image that I won't mind sending out to make my friends look at my photos. I never feel finished with a photograph until I print it and hold it in my hand. I print on inexpensive 5x7 card stock with a matte finish, until now my only adjustment was to play with the Print Adjustment sliders in the LR Print Module, and that technique is a bit like playing pin the tail with a blindfold on in a dark room. Now I feel like I at least have a shot in getting the print right, thanks again.

[@kw80yt]

Very helpful! I struggle most with sunset/sunrise pictures where the saturated colors print muddy, and increasing their brightness reduces the saturation on screen. My screen is calibrated and most other kinds of pictures come out matching quite well.

[@thepixelsnapper]

Just got one of my favourite pics from my Ladakh trip last year printed and i am in deep shock looking at it how it's comeout..... Wish i had seen this video earlier ! By the way, great video, you packed a lot of information and presented it in a clean and concise manner. Love from India.

[@svvancouver3307]

Amazing. This was very helpful and easy to follow. I was able to turn on my printer ICC profiles and it looks exactly like the muddy print outs. Now I will download the ICC from the paper manufacturer. Thank you!!!

[@sharonswan9861]

Thank you. I just bought my first pro printer and this was very helpful. Much appreciated.

[@amartin3893]

Creating a luminosity lair has worked wonders for me. Thankyou.

[@Mudly71]

OMG, still so much to learn. I absolutely love this. Thankyou 😊

[@dw.in.michigan]

I don't have a printer at home suitable for photo printing, so my option is to use a print service. After having a couple of images printed and turn out way too dark, I've been hesitant to print more. I know that I need to make adjustments to the image prior to printing, but I haven't had any kind of starting point, other than trial and error. On top of that, I'm colorblind, so I can't rely on my own visual perception to know when I might go too far. Your video provides a really simple workflow that takes a lot of the guesswork out of it. Thank you!

[@TheCabinman]

Excellent overview, thanks!

[@smclean]

Luminosity mask has just changed my life!

[@heliopolis0]

Thanks Todd. Very useful!!!

[@paulkay8986]

Thanks Todd, that's been so incredibly useful

[@markhinchcliffe2533]

THANK YOU! A terrific article.

[@20centurymodern]

For complete precision I think a great quality monitor and a hardware calibration tool are priceless for consistent prints. If the display is only changed through eye its ultimately a guess as to brightness levels for printing. The human eye has a great way too of adapting to lighting snd “trickery” and combine this with how bright or dim the room your working in is and the room light itself, it can add so many variables from monitor to print and in turn wasting ink and paper. With regards to papers the importance of ICC image profiles from the print manufacturers websites. These are another vital tool in allowing your printer to understand the paper your using. I find ICC profiles invaluable in soft proofing too. Good monitor, hardware calibration and ICC profiles, they’ve been lifesavers for my printing workflow to be consistent and something I’m happy with. Wonderful video by the way, well described!

[@topbuildersolutions1172]

Super helpful! Thank you, Sir!

[@DementedDistraction]

I just got my test proofs from a printing service for some of my paintings, and my blacks and darker tones were all crushed and muddy and I wasn't sure why. I've tried your steps in Photoshop and the results on-screen look promising, so hopefully my next round of test prints will yield positive results - thanks for this!

[@dominey]

Great! I would also ask your print service if they offer downloadable ICC profiles for their printers and papers. That way you could proof images in PS before sending them off.

[@mattoliver9278]

Great, solved my problem, thank you!

[@kemerthomson]

Extraordinarily valuable: you pack a lot of important information into a concise video. As is usually the case with your how-to videos, I find I benefit from watching multiple times.

[@tclarke971]

Very helpful ... thank you!

[@lunama151]

Great video. Any chances that you will make a video about how to fix or improve color photography prints? More difficult than B&W in my opinion. Thanks.

[@spenceford4299]

Your the best. Always very good information.

[@SLRTom]

Superb video as always.

[@andrewgreen1355]

Fantastic video. Thanks

[@JArmandoCastaneda]

Great vid, got a ton of value from it. I subscribed.

[@jonasktew6857]

thanks so much for this! I have an image that's very similar to yours and am struggling to get a good print made. . . looks great on my screen but the matte prints look muddy and flat... will try to do what you've recommended :)

[@leto_len]

Thank you, really interesting.

[@ddsdss256]

I also use a matte screen (Benq PD3200U calibrated 32" 4K) and arbitrarily set it at 50% brightness. I use it in sRGB mode, but there's also a Darkroom mode (plus Low Blue Light but I'd never use that for editing). I wonder if I should try Darkroom--I suppose the "proper" way to handle this would be to experiment to see which settings most closely approximate the prints but as you point out, paper adds another variable. I have an Epson P900 and my go-to paper is Epson Ultra Premium Luster (and most of my prints with that look great--I use OEM ICC profiles for all papers) but I've got a load of papers (probably around 50, from Canson, Epson, Hahnemühle, Moab, and Red River) to test so I can narrow it down to a few choices to best suit specific images. That's going to take a lot of work and I want to make sure I handle the testing effectively as I only have a couple of sheets of most of those, plus I'm hoping I can use one test image for both color and B&W. I really love baryta (especially for certain B&W images) but metallic also comes close to a silver-gelatin look. I've had the least success so far with raggy matte papers, but I've yet to make any large prints from those (the texture can be too much on smaller ones, compromising detail and subtle tonal variations). One thing's for sure, printing in general (and for any specific printer) involves quite a learning curve and your video points out how complex the process is. As a side note, many of us prefer not to "rent" Adobe products in favor of owning (arguably better) software from DxO, Capture One, etc. and I wish the photo-world weren't so Adobe-centric (and I have stock in Adobe!), Although most software allows you to make the same adjustments (and more), the workflow is quite different. Also, I've heard that softproofing isn't that accurate and Epson Print Layout software does a lot of the same things. Any approach you use, you need to expect some wasted prints along the way.

[@RaphaelMatto]

That luminosity trick in Lightroom is great, & equivalent PSD trick. I mentioned this on another one of your videos: the "old skool" method for lifting the blacks via the curve editor that you showed effectively prevents your printer from printing as dark as it can-that should never be recommended as a general rule.

[@dominey]

Thanks! I’ve gone back and forth on disabling Black Point Comp and setting my own black point to the darkest black my printer can print (as found via a test chart) and simply checking the box and letting LR/PS set the blacks for me. Leaning towards the latter for simplicity. If you have experience with this feel free to share more!

[@RaphaelMatto]

​@@dominey Sure: Black Point Compensation should always be on & maps black in the source PROFILE to black in the destination PROFILE (not your image!) w/some extra magic to repair bunching up of black/dark values-because of gamut compression from the AdobeRGB/ProPhoto/etc -> printer profiles-to avoid posterization. It has NOTHING to do with moving grey or black values YOU SET on the curves editor. There is no box you can check that will "set the blacks for you." Again, you are in control of that. If you tell PS/Lightroom w/the curves editor that you're remapping black to dark grey (like you recommend in the video), those values in your image will print as dark grey from the printer's pov and you'll never get a true black out of your printer. Preventing your printer from printing true black should be a creative choice, not something done accidentally while trying to lift or "unclump" the darker values. Also, "setting my own black point to the darkest black my printer can print (as found via a test chart)" makes no sense. Again, that sounds suspiciously like you're hamstringing your printer. Yeah, it feels like there's a fundamental misunderstanding of color management going on. I enjoy watching your videos-there's lots of good info, great production value, & lots of respect to you-but I'd recommend taking a deeper dive on color mangement to level-up there. Calibrate your display (not just to get it right, but going through the process can help you understand color management), start inspecting profiles in ColorSync, run some experiments on test charts w/the standard changes you make w/normal prints to see if you're doing damage, etc. Imagine: potentially every image you've printed w/the curves editor technique could have been more punchy w/a true black. Pretty devestating mistake, right? Maybe we're miscommunicating, but if I'm guessing right here, your prints could get way better w/a deeper understanding of how to squeeze all the juice out of the lemmon. Signal processing.

[@STARGRANTMACKENZIE]

Awesome video - much appreciated. I was wondering, in terms of the adjustments you made, why it didn't seem like a goal was to increase the contrast - is that because it wouldn't translate to the print?

Todd, first of all, I'm grateful to you for sharing wonderful information and experiences in these videos. I'd like to ask you a question on a different topic. For a while now, I've been framing prints with many different combinations: Photo Rag, baryta papers, metallic papers, museum glass, matte glass, standard glass, etc. Yes, papers like Photo Rag feel the most like a work of art when I hold them in my hands, but when I hang them on the wall and turn on the spotlight, they seem to absorb light rather than reflect it, unlike glossy or semi-glossy finish papers, which makes me feel like they lose contrast even more. Do you have any thoughts on this? Thank you

[@phabio7839]

Thanks!

[@bifty9]

Thanks for sharing, i had the same problem with low contrast. Adding exposure with a luminance mask is a good way. But as in your example i find the blacks not as the dark blacks they supposed to be?! But in your curve they were already at pure black. Is that cause of the softproof mate paper or can there be added a darker black to adjust for print?

[@toussaintmichael]

Great video. Thanks for that. Can you say what brightness in cd/m² you recommend for printing? I use a SpyderX pro and the software tells me 120 to 140 cd/m² depending on daylight. But these settings are too bright for prints. What do you recommend?

[@hankroarkphoto]

I calibrate for 80 cdm, and work in dark room (dark enough that you can’t read a newspaper in the room). Difference between 120 and 80 is about 1/3 stop of brightness, it’s subtle but I notice it in my prints. Also, monitor white point matters a lot… for my BenQ I calibrate to 5700K… under 3000-4000k light (typical display conditions), a standard test print and monitor will match color wise to my eye…. And that’s the goal to adjust the monitor so it’s predictable of what comes out of the printer. Hate to add this, but I had to switch to i1display because my Spyder just couldn’t predictably calibrate the monitor for any setting other than 120 cdm or above and 6500k (too blue and did not look like standard calibration print).

[@MartySteinberg]

Great video, just starting to print b&w and am enjoying it. You mentioned using a benq monitor, do you use the monitor’s b&w profile as well while soft proofing or stick with the calibrated color profile for the monitor?

[@dominey]

I very rarely use the B+W mode on the BenQ. Sometimes helpful for seeing a bunch of images in B+W without actually converting them, but you wouldn't want to use it for editing B+W. For that you'd stick to the BenQ's D3 or AdobeRGB modes, plus ICC profiles for soft proofing.

[@Pauluz_The_Web_Gnome]

Great video, great tips! It helped me a lot! My Sister is Happy now with her prints! Thanks! Subbed! &* Liked!

[@jlr3636]

I have to say, I’ve watched lots of LR videos and this is the first time “Soft Proof” has been mentioned. Now I get to spend a bunch of additional day’s learning this,…. So goes life. My prints are lots darker than my monitor, so I’ll lower the screen brightness. Question- if I take my dark print, hold it next to my screen with the original edited image displayed , adjust the screen brightness to match the print, then re-edit the image to look like my original concept, will this get me closer? Remark- if this works I now have to re-edit all my printable photos, not a big problem… only 1 out of 10,000 are keepers.

[@Ganapathy-bn9im]

How do i proof setup in photoshop while I taking prints from print shop? Is there any tips for that?

[@readitoutloud]

Lifted blacks but the same issue I encountered by doing that was a slightly green/gray cast to the image. How to make the blacks punchy?

[@dbw]

Todd, At position 5:33 in the video, you placed the Spyder X over what appears to be some grey paper. What was the reason for doing this please

[@konmorse]

That’s from the spider application. It shows you where to place the device on your screen

[@byways7528]

Instructions provided by the printing service I use state to not check "Simulate paper and ink." They don't say why, but I see that you do check that option. Can you explain the choice and the effects either way? Thank you.

[@angelaroney6390]

Because the "simulate paper and ink" are for you to see what it will look like on the monitor or digital viewing. When you print, it is on the media (paper) and uses the ink, instead of adjusts for it for your digital viewing. Use the check mark for proofing to customer or your work for the web in order to better match a "hard proof" or printed file. (Which is why he saved it and then went on to edit the file for print) At least that is what I understood...

[@alkrevit4755]

Now that photoshop has gone through some iterations since this video, do you now use the masking found in ACR to do the luminousity mask? I did want your opinion on something as I don't print all that often on my BenQ sw270c , but I have a calibration I created at 5800k and 90 candela for printing. I mostly edit in adobe rgb in another calibration which is 6500k and after editing I duplicate and then convert profile to srgb for web purposes. I save a .psd file in adobe rgb with my edits on disk. My question is if I switch to that calibration at 5800k can I use that psd file created in the other calibration or need to start over and reedit the beginning raw file in the 5800k calibration? Thanks

[@Mo-Town_Auto_Icons]

Can a layman pick your brain for a sec? I am not a photographer and Ive never owned a printer better than a $99 on used for School work but I got a good deal on a Canon Pro-10...so I hooked up, did the head alignment n test print and then I just printed a picture of My Son off FB...very dark. Then I found & printed a B&W of Marilyn Monroe...dark. So I went into the printer settings and turned the intensity all the way down from dark to light and print the same picture and they are IDENTICAL...What should I do next to fix this?

[@corgikun2579]

7:06 I think you mean that in a photograph, skin and clothes shouldn't shine like metal, same for rocks, mountains, or trees. On the other hand, a lake, a shoe, or a star wars costume might look better on a coated paper

[@andrewalexander7707]

Simulate Paper & Ink is grayed out. I cannot do this part for some reason

[@kenwichert]

Option only possible if the selected profile is for print (CMYK). If a monitor calibration is selected (e.g. sRGB) then you won't see the "paper & ink" option

[@Notmy00000]

🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@charlesspringer4709]

Hot tip on video intros. If you are holding something for me to look at, don't wave it around and shake it. Rest you hand or elbow on something. Move the camera in and put your hands in your pockets. Even better, show the photo while you narate. This trend for KZbinrs to overtalk with their hands is just strange, like you are going to rap about photography in the hood.. KZbin isn't a TV show, it is one-on-one, and gesticulating in a way that would keep me at a distance in person conveys the same body language on Video. I overcame it completely when I was a teacher and the students/audience focus shifted to the subject in a very noticeable way - of course.

[@allisonbaum8423]

Amateurs are never comfortable leaving blacks alone in prints. Mystery always lies in the shadows and darks. You should have made your blacks darker to bring pop in this image. And the use of the paper. Never ever use a matt paper for a dark print like this. You should have used a Baryta. Go study the masters before trying to TEACH.

[@mattflynn6328]

I crush my blacks in black and white. I love lost details in blacks. When done creatively it looks amazing.

[@mattflynn6328]

I calibrate my BenQ with the X-Rite hardware. Anyone printing and wants consistent and accurate results, it's essential. You should not be editing and printing from an un-calibrated monitor.

[@tee-botheewok716]

Hold the dark print next to the screen and lower the brightness to match the paper. You wont be able to even see text. So it's bullshit.

[@konstantinborus5458]

Not the print but white paper....

[@jeffsmith5565]

Thanks!

[@dominey]

Thank you!

[@IoannisIliadis-v2t]

Thank you!