How to focus | John Vervaeke and Lex Fridman

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • John Vervaeke: Meaning...
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GUEST BIO:
John Vervaeke is a psychologist and cognitive scientist at University of Toronto.
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[@TheDavitt]

Watching a video on focus while not focusing on task at hand 😂😂

[@dedededededededede]

Writing a comment on focus while not focusing on the video

[@PinoGTaurus]

@@dedededededededede ⁸

[@IrfanAli-bu1ms]

@@dedededededededede reading comments instead of focusing on video or at my work

[@jameshayes2022]

'You wanna flow wisely' need that on a t-shirt

[@phyrr2]

Flow is like having a target that you constantly lock onto. It's not hitting the target once, it' having "missle lock" the entire time of your performance. One state of flow I enjoy the most is performing at events with the skill of improv. It feels like running with a cup full of water, not being allowed to spill a single drop, lest you ruin your entire performance thread. And improv moments can last just as long as a recited set! There's very much that feel of putting yourself at the very tip of the direction you're heading. Constantly making micro-adjustments in tone, body language, cadence of delivery, etc. etc. You both feel all of it AND control all of it at the "tip of the spear" if you will. Constantly retargeting to ensure you're on target.

[@30yearsoldiam1]

Yeah this all fine but many productive people have never considered "flow" They just enjoy their work. But you keep thinking it's more nuanced if it works for you

[@lordcrispen]

I'm a HUGE fan of how Lex pushes back with apt questions like "Does it cause it or does it reveal it?". He doesn't just accept new information being brought to the table as fact just because the speaker says it as factual and claims he has evidence. I also like that he frames it in a way that isn't just laughing in the guy's face. It's how we should always treat new claims when we don't know the answer. It's always okay to reserve judgment until more evidence comes in. Well played, Lex.

[@nodidog]

Agree. I respect that he isn't just a cheerleader for his guest, he genuinely wants to understand the concepts they're putting forward - even if it means asking uncomfortable questions, or discussing why they may be wrong.

[@ACactusHealingRhino]

Ultimately the pushbacks cause the guest to expand on their knowledge and insight which turns out to be great 10/10 times. Lex is awesome.

[@newpilgrim]

Thanks for the great content as always, Lex. There's a lot of research to support the negative cognitive impacts of social media, unfortunately. I'm getting my doctorate in this stuff. Vervaeke is on point.

[@martin-fc4kk]

I have experienced flow just a few times in my life and it was great! Such a precious state of mind and so rare..

[@cac1682]

The way he describes being in the “flow state” is often how I feel while dreaming…even the conditions needed to be in the state are often present in the dreams as well. I doubt it’s just me…but, who knows.

[@deckofcards87]

It's not just you!

[@nachovc]

I haven't dreamed like that in a while, but I know perfectly what you are saying. Interestingly, I feel the flow state when I dive, but I remember feeling it deeper when dreaming about diving.

[@slicphone]

Lemme get that constant flow pls

[@z3232]

Alex Hunnold the absolute master of flow.

[@30yearsoldiam1]

Sorry but that's a dim witted thing to see.

[@Beederda]

Ive watched this episode 4 times now and now im watching the clips lol can’t get enough

[@greencarpetgrowing4539]

Great episode!!!

[@dsgg5714]

tl:dw;?

[@irathompson6471]

I have experienced flow mainly while playing sports when I was younger and most recently but very rarely while playing golf but this discussion has made me realize how good it makes one feel and how much I miss it.

[@Cypri666]

When i create, wether that is artistically through art or developing software is when I get into flow and its the best thing ever! When I am deprived of that through daily routines like work and other responsibilities I get very depressed. This was a great talk!

[@dectocs]

Not flowing at work is a fixable issue. Start caring and trying to do better! There is always something :)

[@dectocs]

Or seek out other employment, now is a ridiculously easy time to swap careers. We’ve never had this many “will train” job listings.

[@jameshayes2022]

I get this when I snowboard. Wish I could do it more

[@jasonrench2623]

Shawn James is a song I can relate too and I feel I am.going through this very thing. Flow like the river. Excellent song and meaningful

[@Krypto_Knite]

I have had this experience running down a hill between trees. It felt awesome!

[@napoleon2564]

If you’re in school you can induce a flow state by waiting until the day before an assignment is due to start it

[@tmuxor]

😂Yeah and then produce a substandard result due to rushing through it.

[@adrianrussell4185]

I had a literature professor who always said, "deadlines are a hell of a muse" lol.

[@andrewmeiklem5098]

Buy the MUSE headband. Helped me learn to focus

[@philippriestman8516]

The posture becomes perfect when all effort disappears….a yogi.

[@dominicvioli7098]

Great application for my golf game ⛳ here

[@HomelessHomeowner617]

I achieve a great flow state landscaping. Specifically mowing lawns.

[@alexandrefurtado3469]

Surf is pure flow state.

[@Bukulmus]

Dr K from Healthy Gamer GG would be a great guest to have on to get way more in depth about transferable skills from video games. He's built his entire channel on helping gamers solve their real world problems. Excellent channel with great advice, gamer or not.

[@PhuPhillipTrinh]

man please interview Dr K that would be so epic!!!!!!!!!!

[@MentalWanderings]

I agree, too! Love yah Lex.

[@invictuz4803]

I really need flow to percolate through my psyche and permeate through many domains of my life asap.

[@predater5017]

try some form of action meditation (movement that requires focus and repetition to achive correct form), any form of qigong or yoga will help alot. mountain biking, xcountry running, martial arts, theres lots of ways to do it just pick something and do it. keep doing it even when you dont want to and the discipline you develop will get you through the days when flow is hard to come by.

[@invictuz4803]

@@predater5017 That's great advice, I have trouble maintaining consistency throughout the days but maybe repeating these basic actions over and over again will keep me consistent. Thank you!

[@pereraddison932]

... it is yours, Invictus. Cl-"aim" it. Practice calmness becoming calmness, breath it, calmly beconing stillness, and ask yourself what will your next thought, or "quest"ion be, perceive the gap between one thought and the next, and dive in, acknowledge and declair that quiet open space, do it while waiting in line at any check out or tragic light. This thing is like nothing in the midst of everything. It is a non judgmental state of the awareness of IS-NESS. Happy Flowing NOW-NESS, Invictus. Cheers from OZ, down under in Australia ...

[@invictuz4803]

@@pereraddison932 Thank you so much for those detailed instructions. I followed along as I was reading it, and I actually felt my breathing slow down, my eyes stop squinting, face relaxed, and I felt so calm. Beautifully phrased instructions, I will note this and continue to practice it. Cheers!

[@EmeraldEdge72]

Everything he said in this video is correct! I have been working on a project since 2014 and today I was able to write all 4-5 charts that help me explain to people why and how I know what is going to happen in every movie and story. I finally corrected the chart not to mention character chart and the hero chart. I have a napkin with notes on it that has my pre-flow state thoughts on processing two shows The Good Doctor & Bob's Burgers dated late 2019. I was abruptly dissecting the two shows in my head at the same time. My flow state comes and goes and it has been known to be active in a dream and even wake me up.

[@justincv]

Sounds undisciplined and unorganised

[@ChristopherCopeland]

Would you be opposed to sharing your charts with me? I *love* this type of thing. Thanks!

[@cac1682]

@@justincv ​ seems to me like a “systematic chaos” in my humble opinion. Systemic in his own eyes yet chaotic to others.

[@cac1682]

I just wrote how I am in this state while dreaming as well. Glad to know there’s plenty of us. Also, my below comment about it seeming like your system/approach is, in its way, a systematic chaos. One I relate to very much. Would love to see these charts too if your open to sharing your analysis.

[@richarde3996]

Why do I feel like I need a shower after reading this insanity?

[@Theend4you]

Wow this could improve education. Changing the environment to help the student develop a flow like state by meeting those three requirements.

[@nvanarchy]

Hi, loving the podcasts. Been watching you since I saw you on JR. Anywho. Any further readings on this subject. Im struggling with flow IRL but as a long term gamer I definately enter it online. Ive given up FB and trying to wheen myself of gaming. But looking for ways to improve my life.

[@modesttriangle1022]

Go for walks/runs/join a gym/work out at home with an activity you enjoy and that is not too hard. You will enter flow states. Start slow. Get a job that isn't too demanding and maybe not too many hours. Go back to college. Just some recommendations.

[@nvanarchy]

@@modesttriangle1022 im back at college now hahaha. Cheers for the advice. Any peer reviewed lit you can recomend ?

[@liquidpza]

I became extremely proficient at the VR game Beat Saber, top ten in the world, and consistently in a flow state. I eventually decided to instead spend that time in another VR title called Thrill of the Fight, a boxing simulator. I've spent an average of an hour a night, six days a week, for the past four years with TotF. Much more difficult to achieve flow, as the variables receive a large uptick in number and unpredictability within the bounds of something like roomscale striking, but it still happens at some point during about half of my sessions. My IRL boxing proficiency has increased by leaps and bounds during this time. Alongside these new flow hobbies, my professional work began to hit new highs. Perhaps VR is an exception, but it most certainly transfers over to the real world. At this point, I'm obviously a huge proponent of flow, but as with Lex, the video game nonsense that he tried to tie into it rubbed me the wrong way and felt forced and tacked on. A half baked hypothesis. I'm 40, a lifelong gamer, and gaming has most certainly been a positive addition to my life, and now they give me an outlet for consistent flow and a new perspective on intuition. Geez, that became quite a long rant. Cheers, everyone, I hope you find your flow.

[@JaxShrimp88]

Great video Lex thanks. I achieve this type of flow state when I play video games.. Won a $32k tournament split 4 ways and this is exactly what it feels like when im dialed in to the games environment, instead of my own.

[@JaxShrimp88]

@@SupernaturalBeingsofEarth real taxable earnings.

[@garrettvandenberg2031]

@@JaxShrimp88 So Vervaeke uses videogames as a prime example of flow induction practices that don't (as easily, or generally) allow for reciprocal opening. While it is a genuine flow state, the skills and attention orientation that videogames develop don't tend to translate well into other life-skills or activities, resulting a net detriment to the sort of health John is teaching us how to develop here. While extremely impressive that you're managing to win tournaments in gaming, gaming likely won't be able to take the place of a "flow" practice in terms of trying to develop an ecology of practice that helps to orient your life and sense of meaning very well. I like playing videogames a lot too but if you want to pursue the kind of benefits John is talking about throughout this interview it will likely work out much better to try something like yoga, ti chi, rock climbing, a team sport, or something physical that uses your whole body and mind. I recently started rock climbing and it's had an incredibly positive affect on my general lifestyle and wellbeing. I feel happier, I feel healthier, I'm able to focus on my work while I'm working better. Incorporating different types of meditation is important too, as John explains in the rest of this conversation.

[@smartbart80]

In what game. Title pls pls pls

[@justincv]

That's cool bro, imagine focusing on a skill that is worth anything

[@JaxShrimp88]

@@justincv Why are you judging me? I've achieved more than 98% of my peers since I've left high school, including home ownership and some semblance of financial freedom while maintaining great health. Maybe something is going on at home? Needed a dig on someone to make yourself feel better? All good dog.

[@oodlebay]

Talks about TRANSFER!!! Makes me connect with writing transfer. The transfer is a much more complex phenomenon than knowing how to write well.

[@adelinaquijano1083]

I'm okay I'm just happy😍😊

[@Jaibee27]

Video games can be helpful or harmful to ur mind depending on how you play. If u play mindlessly like when u see people button mashing ur habit of reactiveness gets reinforced especially if u experience success and flow. If however, u play with focus and u have a greater awareness of self and strategy flow is very transferrable. Video games can be like how he described rock climbing. Video games are designed to get people addicted like poker machines but a well designed game has the potential to simulate skill development.

[@predater5017]

if its game that requires skill then its not simulating anything

[@Jaibee27]

@@predater5017 why?

[@predater5017]

@@Jaibee27 let me be clearer, the skill isnt simulated, lots of other things could be obviously.

[@Jaibee27]

@@predater5017 there are some simulators for cars and motorcycles which are getting nore realistic. They took a video game champion and put him in a real race against professional drivers and he won in real life too. A lot of action games improve timing and the ability to be cool under pressure. I remember seeing a vid of youtubers play paintball against elite military and they won a few games because they play gun games and they werent even the best champion Rainbow 6 Seige or COD players just ordinary youtubers.

[@DanielAnderssson]

@@predater5017 Video games are designed to pull you in so much that studies have shown that gamers do have improved focus to other things as well compared to those who don't play games. But moderation is the key here...

[@dominicvioli7098]

I'm gonna test out these core pillars of flow state at the slots machines later at my local gas station. 🎰

[@dominicvioli7098]

Instant feedback , non ambiguous peramatores, risk

[@ClumsySaunter]

In relation to flow state in a game not transferring to the real world, Dr. K from healthygamer has some interesting videos on the topic of gaming, and once said something like "games are meant to be beaten." I think this has to do with flow state in a game not transferring to the real world here. You may not be guaranteed to "win" in a real-world pursuit/the result of effort is "falsifiable" like in the scientific method.

[@darthjohn0]

I clicked on this to listen in the background while I work. I'm guessing I'm doing it wrong...

[@cameron9wind33]

I love when he mentioned that myth is a shared dream. That was brilliant.

[@cameron9wind33]

@Steve Dean interesting. I think you could be right on that. I could believe it.

[@cameron9wind33]

@Steve Dean I feel that. For sure I'm just trying to appreciate what others are doing on there own journeys and not saying anyone is completely right or completely wrong. TY.

[@jack-o-claus]

I refuse to procrastinate by watching a video on focusing

[@JohnnyArtPavlou]

Winning!

[@zachary949]

"a voice is meant to be heard" -lex fridman

[@SpiritTracker7]

John Vervaeke's statement "these machines are designed to trigger salience without triggering reflective truth seeking" is not only profound, but is also exactly how media steers social perception on almost everything today. He said it far more diplomatically than I would have lol.

[@LeonSKennedy7777]

I had no idea he passed away… RIP Mihai Czichsetmihai.

[@Jboltz12]

6:53 I was waiting for the punch line

[@nanoevent]

I feel these flow state effects after smoking weed.

[@DanielAnderssson]

I feel them after taking Dexedrine. I wish that I can tap in without taking drugs someday

[@RallyBud]

17:45, Drop the mic!

[@litpapi1849]

I fucking love you Lex.

[@tvathome562]

I do fine academically, flow no issues, if I don't I grind it out, real life like social/work no go no flow, depressed Aspi...

[@ryanhough3602]

Focus on second every second

[@nicksyoutubeaccount]

Lmao Lex pushing back hard. Felt kinda tense at moments but that could just be me.

[@d-rex7043]

He loves social media because he gets in and out, like the SAS, for a daily post, to tell people that love is good. Meanwhile, the people who are spending sizeable portions of time on social media, are the ones experiencing the negatives.

[@siddharthaghimire2415]

9:32

[@janglestick]

so we don't so much need to create full VR environments, as much as we need to create flow environments

[@jayvalentin6339]

🙏🏼 😅 the flow allows you to access the void - accessing the void on a daily takes you to another time and space . No disrespect 🙏🏼 the void is the nothingness I get my ideas from … just my wisdom based on experience

[@pereraddison932]

... Yay, Jay-!!! That so called Void, is not empty. The void is full, to over "Flowing" with energy. It is thee place where the ALL of ISNESS resides, and "FLOWS", inner wonderf-full, Salient Sentiant Simbiotic Simatry ...

[@rolando8477]

3:40

[@user-xm9if5tu2v]

17:10

[@vladokingsley297]

He has an intense stare

[@savantofillusions]

Everything he’s saying supports Betty Edwards theory that drawing helps us with granular mind/Brain interaction

[@lionheart93]

i bet many of those that watch this video have about 10 tabs open surfing through the internet. Focus is a skill that one can't master with technology .

[@CEAZETHEFUTURE]

lol literally

[@SameAsAnyOtherStranger]

So you know you were performing closer to optimal than you usually do. You will have a better idea how to do better than you usually do. The times you perform as you usually do is when to analyze your performance and see how you can improve. Like any learning experience, current struggles become future expertise.

[@carefulcarpenter]

The creative flow is a bit more interesting than the mental-physical flow. I played college football at the highest level. I remember going beyond what my coaches had trained us to respond to. All my coaches through the years asked me how I respnded so quickly and creatively to situations that they had not witnessed before in any of their players. As a creative writer I have written on messageboards, thoughts over a period of time that became prophetic. I could not have known these things. Synchronistic mathematics eventually emerged. I have answers to things that would require lifetimes to learn, and/or discover. Patterns seem to fall into place at just right time. Flow--- _I AM the flyfisherman;_ _Catching morsels in the Storm;_ _The flow is remarkable;_ _The air is fresh and clean._ 👀🐡🐠🌿🌾 cc

[@defizdefne]

Can you share somethings like keywords, notes, informations, tips, tricks etc. I wanna learn but i dont know where to start. If you share something it would be fascinating! (also sorry for mistakes english is not my first language)

[@jms0313]

No alcohol and get good sleep

[@d-rex7043]

Pretty sure the point here wasn't that gaming flow isn't good, in general, it's that games that model/simulate transferable skills that can be applied to real life are likely beneficial and will generate positive bio feedback, whilst those that don't will result, ultimately, in negative feedback, if your progress in the world isn't benefiting from the investment of flow on those activities.

[@effjesse_]

Good pushback from Lex. Learning flow in games transfers directly to flow anywhere else and vice versa, thinking otherwise is a very boomer misconception. (Not their fault of course.) Social media boomer takes are pretty spot on though imo, and in the literature too.

[@alwynkotze9891]

If you really sit and think about it deeply and critically, the requirements needed for achieving a state of flow in a computer game vs the real world couldn't be more different. I'm going to disagree with Lex on this one, because it doesn't seem like he really gave some thought to it, he just sort of made the point and then went on with the rest of the conversation. When you're playing a game, it has a very immediate, urgent and direct objective in 99% of casesa. And when you're playing with friends, there's some responsibility on your part to be paying careful attention, because not doing so usually ends in a loss. If you're sitting in an office, even having a very real and close deadline isn't as urgent as the requirement is in a computer game. In a computer game the result is decided usually in less than an hour, and your feedback on your performance and the consequence of good and bad performance is felt immediately. At work, having poor performance or concentration can in some cases have no short- or medium-term consequence, and your attention to the matter is not critical in this very moment - giving you time to screw around, watch youtube video's and daydream. To make it worse, you choose to play that specific computer game because you like or enjoy the game, which infinitely incentivizes you to pay even more attention. When the game includes ranking points and currencies based on performance, this is further exasperated. Compare that to a job (or studies) - they are still WORK and you might not be as excited about finishing a chapter on corporate tax as you are in being the winning squad in call of duty. Now you're telling me, that it's a boomer misconception that someone who intensely plays games can simply move that same focus and flow state to work and replicate that with ease? Why do you think the joke exists where you do 10% of an assignment for 2 weeks and the other 90% in 3 hours before the deadline?

[@SaintLuisOne]

Bro just tell me how to focus.

[@tile-maker4962]

Wu Wei brother

[@SDRDS96169]

What shampoo, the revolutionary one? Lol.

[@clairek8651]

They were studying my flight and fight mode along with my flow. How funny coincidentally trauma like the “snake and the bat”, “patient 23”, “reading thoughts”, “VR”, “Human Resources”, “electric energy from love”… PLEASE FUCKING GET ME TO DALAS!,!!!! PLEAAAAAASE!,! !!!! !!,! !!”!”!”! !!”!”!,!,!

[@thejuice3819]

RIP Kobe Bryant

[@SpiritTracker7]

Lex, concerning your comment about social media possibly being linked to depression, whether it "reveals or creates depression". I don't think that is an appropiate way to assess the possibility for correlation. I feel like your question unnecessarily pushes the ability to address the correlation into an infinite regress. The only thing we need to tie down is if prolonged habitual social media interaction induces depression statistically. Whether depression is activated or created by it is a rabbit trail, given the level of complexity involved in diagnosis.

[@pereraddison932]

... Vim Vivany, Vim Vivany, Vim Vim Vitae-!!! It's Like, Knowing Not Knowing ...

[@Matterful]

Great clip but wrongly titled, this isn't really a 'how to focus' bit.

[@JMo268]

I did not find practical value in that. Not sure 'How to focus' is the best title here.

[@charliemopps4926]

I'm an autistic... and I think this argument is fairly off base... Simply run all the tests/surveys/whatever on some autistic folks and you'll see how different the responses will be. I think what he's describing is a generalization of neurotypical groups, and not applicable to any individual. The real key to "how we think" I believe will be found by studying those of us on the fringes of the psychological spectrum. Namely, I think one huge mistake a lot of science makes in this field is in thinking there is a singular way to perceive the world. It's not just that some of us have a different viewpoint.... I think it's that we ALL do... and the mistake in thinking everyone else around you shares your perception is the source of the majority of our psychological problems. This applies to us all as well, including me. Prior to diagnosis, I was under the mistaken impression that everyone else thought the same way I did... Finding out that I was autistic was quite the shock, yet explained so much.

[@Cryogenik_1]

These days I can only focus on something if it's due _that day_.

[@wesleymason9897]

1st

[@rajneeshmilarepa6090]

"at-one-ment... did I mention at-one-ment?"

[@yoananda9]

I don't buy the shampoo anymore. I just wash my head with water, like all animals, and ... it's fine !!!! It's very fine.

[@1in2ition]

How to not? Have U tried it? You will be surprised

[@oliverjamito9902]

The CHILD given can be quite! If so, REMEMBER WAS GIVEN A LANGUAGE IS UNDERSTOOD. LIKEWISE INDEED THE FEET KNOWS THE VOICE NOT OF A STRANGER? FOR THE FEET KNOWS? RESTING UPON A FOUNDATION. IS LIKE BRING ALL FOUNDATION IN FRONT AND COMPARE. COME AND IF ANY OTHER FOUNDATION BETTER. COME TEACH ME. FOR THE CHILD FROM THE EAST WILL ALWAYS WELCOME SINCERE CONVERSATIONS.

[@AndrewQuiroz24]

Most people today have the attention span less than a goldfish.

[@followyourideas]

He doesn't really explain how to focus but ok

[@Native_love]

The video game world is dangerous for the weak minded. Violence in games effects them much more than people with a solid emotional base.

[@Brand00d]

Video games will make you smarter if done with discipline

[@vixantenna]

data taken directly out of your own ass. if you have no experience with games and didn't grow up playing them, shut the fuck up. don't make an assumption based on what you see from the outside, especially if you're not in it.

[@gorojo1]

Lex’s fanboy defense of our digital lifestyle reveals his bias. Countless studies reveal direct correlations, including a 25% decline in attention span(Microsoft; 2015) to 40% decline in empathy among young adults(University of Michigan; 2021). Even Vervaeke downplays the gravity of evidence here. The fact is, the data is both abundant and off the charts.

[@frankjohnson123]

You’re cherrypicking. There’s plenty of evidence that video games are good for mental sharpness.

[@user-xm9if5tu2v]

17:10