How to Get Rid of Fugitive Emissions From Gas Flaring

Fugitive emissions from energy production makes up 5.8% of global emissions - more than aviation (1.9%) and shipping (1.7%) combined! The majority of fugitive emissions are from the oil and gas sector, who vent, leak and flare immense amounts of methane.
In this video we talk with Mark Davis and John-Henry Charles from Capterio, about their free tool FlareIntel that uses satellites to monitor flaring activity.
Bookmarks:
00:00 Intro
01:30 When and Why Does Gas Flaring Occur During Oil and Gas Extraction
02:51 Gas Flaring is Getting Worse, Not Better
03:52 Carbon Neutral LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas)
05:32 Adding Transparentcy to Gas Flaring Using Satellites
06:04 Monitoring Methane Emissions Using Satellites
06:41 Monitoring Thermal Anomalies to Track Flare Volumes
07:50 Using the FlareIntel Tool to Track an Actual Gas Flare
09:10 What Can We Do Instead of Flaring Gas?
11:02 Example Projects That Have Reduced Gas Flaring
12:54 Rosie's Take - Flare Efficiency
13:58 Carbon Capture and Blue Hydrogen Will Increase Fugivie Emissions
14:43 Flare Intensity Depends on Countries' Policies
If you would like to help develop the Engineering with Rosie channel, you could consider joining the Patreon community, where there is a chat community about topics covered in the videos and suggestions for future videos and production quality improvements. / engineeringwithrosie
- Sign up to FlareIntel Fee: flareintel.com/#register
- Thoughtful insights articles on flaring: www.flareintel.com/insights
- Weekly/monthly news on gas flaring: www.flareintel.com/news
Source info:
www.worldbank.org/en/programs...
ourworldindata.org/emissions-...
capterio.com/insights/transpa...
Paper on Nightfire algorithm available here:
www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/5/9/4423
#technology #engineering#science
Thanks for watching the video How We Can Use Satellites to Monitor Gas Flaring

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

You can sign up to FlareIntel Free here: flareintel.com/#register

[@theelectricwalrus]

Thanks! I'm totally with Rosie's anger at how much flaring waste there is!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

I've noticed that the idea of blue hydrogen seems to be getting more people thinking about fugitive emissions, so hopefully the time is now right for us to get this super low hanging fruit sorted out quickly!

[@NielMalan]

What absolutely grinds my gears is a refinery in my country, situated in an industrial area, routinely flaring gas during an electricity shortage crisis.

[@BernardLS]

Did they have any on site issues at the time? How big was the flare & how often did it happen?

[@NielMalan]

@@BernardLS It's a tall flaring stack that burns permanently, as far as I can tell. I've never seen it not burning. I've not been to the area for a few years now, so perhaps things have changed.

[@BernardLS]

@@NielMalan Perhaps some one in management got a fresh set of KPI (key performance indicators) or they just tightened up on the task of getting maximum revenue from the resources.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That would grind my gears too Niel!

[@travcollier]

Leakage is also a much much bigger problem than the industry admits, but unlike flaring it is difficult to measure. It isn't quite as stupid from a $ standpoint as it sounds though. The technology to avoid it is there, but it normally costs more than the value of the wasted gas. Polluting needs to cost more than not polluting

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

According to Capterio there are plenty of revenue-positive projects available to reduce flaring. It's not suitable for every single flare, but we could make a big dent in the amount of fugitive emissions if we just started by tackling the ones that give an overall financial benefit. Once we've taken care of those we can think about how to incentivise action on the rest.

[@travcollier]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Oh, agreed. Your video is quite good to mention the different reasons for flares and such.

[@fishyerik]

Flaring, venting and leaks happens because avoiding it reduces profits, at least in the short perspective. A certification system with extra tax on fuels from uncertified sources in most consuming countries would create an incentive to reduce fugitive emissions even for companies in countries that doesn't care about climate. Also, production cost would increase slightly by the cost of preventing fugitive emissions, making alternatives slightly more attractive in comparison.

[@BernardLS]

The material lost by flaring, venting and leaks represents lost revenue potential. A strong incentive is for the administration's to charge royalties on 'extraction' rather than 'exportation' from each site. Fun fact about all those 'subsidies to the fossil oil & gas industry (FOGI)'. The FOGIs bay a lot of tax as well, on balance probably a lot more goes in taxation.

[@gustavlicht9620]

@@BernardLS To use that revenue you need to make a capital expenditure e.g. you need to buy gas liquefiers or generators. If the cost of that capital is higher than the revenue from the gas that would be otherwise flared then avoiding flaring will result in a net cost. However, sometimes you could just use the gas to generate the power to run the drilling operation. The devil is in the details.

[@BernardLS]

@@gustavlicht9620 As you say 'the devil is in the detail' & all activity has costs. In the great juggling act of 'price, cost, value' flaring might be low price only because some of the cost, atmospheric degradation, is externalised while the value of utilisation for on site power generation, reinjection to enhance recovery or liquifaction for removal may be hidden by time required for pay back.

[@simon7790]

Excellent work Rosie, and also Capterio! In the scheme of the changes we need to make as a society, this is low hanging fruit, and we should prioritize it. Any extraction should minimize venting or flaring as a matter of course. Holding firms and governments to account for their decisions is important. Thank you.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That's awesome to hear. Can I ask what country are you working in?

[@Pierre_Nu]

Agreed

[@Jeemus.]

Loving the breadth of topics you are now covering Rosie! I didn't quite realise the scale of the waste and I'm definitely going to check out the tool!

[@dvivek07]

Thank you for making these wonderful videos. Glad to have been following you from the very beginning. I can foresee that you are soon touching millions of views and subs.

[@PinataOblongata]

This sort of info is vital to have out there, thanks so much, Rosie, to you and people like you who are doing the job that old investigative media has failed at!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Interesting that you raise the topic of certification systems, that's the topic of an upcoming video which is a couple of weeks away. That one is mostly on green hydrogen certification, but it is relevant to this too.

[@PinataOblongata]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Will be interesting to find out what's in place and what might be in the works. Business-as-usual is not good enough across the board, it seems like even Environmental Assessments at the planning stages are gamed and watered down, let alone any true emissions accounting. Then there's "offsets" - we have a glib joke in WA about who's going to tell the red and white-tail cockatoos where their new offset habitat is located :/

[@jfess1911]

I the early 1980's I worked on a map dealing with dust from the Mt. Saint Helen's eruptions. I was astounded that the oil and gas flares showed up on some satellite photos from the time. (maybe infared? It was a long time ago)

[@Sharivari16]

Discovered you on uptime! Absolutely love your videos. I’m training to be a pilot but I love wind turbines. Love all the knowledge you share on your channel!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Awesome, thank you! I always wanted to be a pilot, and still have in mind that one day I will learn 😀

[@SuperS05]

Great content, as always!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks SuperS05 😁😁

[@mentality-monster]

Great video.

[@Ikbeneengeit]

Great video, thanks Rosie!

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Glad you liked it!

[@peteroneill2991]

I seem to recall in the mid seventies the UK labour government had plans for a North sea gas gathering scheme via pipelines. Not so much for environmental concerns, more so for the well paid jobs it would provide. That never happened because of change of government in 1979.

[@joels7605]

Excellent video as always. I had previously worked in Oil and Gas in Canada and the flare stacks always disgusted me. It was a regular occurrence to drive to work in the morning and see a couple 100 ft tall fireballs from the Syncrude plant. Business as usual. Also you're rockin' the new hair do.

[@BernardLS]

'Business as usual', so a series of site managers getting replaced?

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

😂 thank you for the hair comment! Normally people only criticise... It was a new do by necessity, we were in lockdown and I couldn't get a trim so I let my fringe to curl to keep it out of my eyes. It is back to the "old" style now but I definitely appreciate your comment as I was expecting mean comments over it 😊

[@joels7605]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Ah, the infamous Covid-hair. Well either way it was working. Do you watch Technology Connections? Covid-hair has slowly been transforming Alec into Dracula.

[@carpenter3069]

I used to be a well tester and it was really cool to see 6 million cubic feet per day coming out of a flare stack 6 ft. off the ground.

[@AnkurShah]

Excellent topic and informative content! Thanks a lot for creating this 😊 Reducing methane emissions is indeed among the best ways to buy a little time to decarbonize our economy to avoid the worst of climate change.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks! Isn't it crazy that we don't focus more on this topic? Need to get Greta on the case!

[@AnkurShah]

@@EngineeringwithRosie completely agree! We need cities and companies to prioritize methane reduction. I also plan to create a couple of videos on methane emissions and mapping it using satellite data. Thanks a lot again for your great work!

[@nc3826]

@@EngineeringwithRosie WADR the only thing Greta does is interject more emotion.... Into subject matters that need logical options... So everyone or at least a majority, can be in favor of implementing cost effective solutions. IMHO And I guess I'm braindead, since it was never clear to me why they cannot just turn a valve to regulate the flow of NG instead flaring it? Is it a pressure build up issue or a different issue??? And if it cant be regulate it, how about producing methanol production from the excess NG that being flared? For uses such as to power fuel cells? But would it be consider "Green" or "Blue" or "Brown: or some of color of an energy source?

[@andyroid7339]

Great video Rosie! I've wondered why this practice is tolerated for years! In 100 years we're goning to look back and think, "Why did we do this??! What were we thinking!". Of course we'll still need oil but you omitted to mention plastics. And thinking about plastics look at the formula for Polyethylene - C2H4 and the how easy it is to create it from methane CH4. Why aren't we turning these emissions into plastic?

[@psychosis7325]

I loved this video and the guy in the black jackets comments and outlook... I'd like to encourage more positive change and less shaming as it gets us no where. It might be obvious and cost efficient now to use that gas other ways but hindsight is never 20:20. In past I'm sure flights were probably cheaper thanks to this and people choosing not to fly is only a small amount. Not to mention I'm sure many could of ordered one less thing during lock down and such that was made from oil or transported with more than needed in some way.... How many times have delays from protesters wanting to shut down plants or delay pipe lines has caused extra flares or possibly venting..... Think here its better to just keep leading by example and really highlighting those that are doing it right as its not just swap to solar and hydro and call it a day, there is so much work to be done and we need to use what oil is there the best ways we can while we transition bit by bit over time as we just don't have all the replacements sorted yet.

[@NZHippie]

Is the flaring increasing (2017 ~ 2020) related to the poorer quality of the raw oil being processed as the fields are nearing depletion?

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That's a good question, I'll see if Mark or Jphn Henry can answer that!

[@nc3826]

I guess I'm braindead, since it was never clear to me why they cannot just turn a valve to regulate the flow of NG instead flaring it? Is it a pressure build up issue or a different issue???

[@dj_laundry_list]

What is the cost difference of putting in gas electricity generation instead of diesel? Wouldn't they have to ship the diesel out there after refinining it, so it would be more expensive?

[@PrashantKumar-kb7pe]

What is the scope of a startup in green energy and battery developments?? I am a high school pass out so thinking about this. Your opinion

[@DjChronokun]

on the subject of CCS, blue hydrogen, and the need for hydrocarbons as chemical feedstocks - I've been wondering how well coal gasification could contribute in these roles does coal mining have high or low fugitive emissions? (I assume it must have at least some from underground methane escaping as the coal is dug up) can coal gasification compete economically with natural gas? can coal-to-liquid projects efficiently provide the necessary long-chain hydrocarbons? should coal be considered a reasonable approach to producing blue hydrogen, or is it better to just stick with oil and gas?

[@michaelseldon3815]

comes back to the subject that coal is less carbon intensive if methane leakages is included, I think it was 2.8 vs 3.4?

[@szurketaltos2693]

Coal is still a lot worse in nitrogen and other emissions but yeah natural gas isn't the perfect bridging fuel it's hyped to be.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks! This one was a bit outside my normal range of topics, but when a friend introduced me to Mark I, like you, was surprised at the extent of the problem and wanted to find out more and share what FlareIntel are doing about it.

[@Traci.Nelson]

this is great but i don't understand why you had to "cut the video short"?

[@C1rnobyl]

I am pro-oil and gas, but I do think we should start requiring flare gas be captured and turned into products like LNG or used to generate power. For God's sake we only have so much oil and gas, we need to use it WISELY. I would like someone to be able to have a system that is "no-flare" where the gas is either generating power or stored and sold.

[@gr8bkset-524]

We live on a planet where there's no penalties for harming the planet and no rewards for doing good. We need to price externalities (positive and negative) into our economies and many of these problems solve themselves through products pricing.

[@BenMitro]

And out politicians here in Australia say that we can't make a difference to world emissions because our emissions are negligible! To remind all, our prime minister walked into parliament holding a lump of coal.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That was a low point 😥

[@BenMitro]

@@EngineeringwithRosie I don't see us as being out of the woods yet Rosie.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Hell of a problem, even on-site usage increases overall output of CO2 because of the added equipment. Putting it in an existing system of Pipes is the least cost idea? But then it seems too similar to the coloured Hydrogen bs.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

There's never going to be a perfect solution, but while we are still burning fossil fuels we can get an emissions saving by displacing some with something that would have otherwise been flared, leaked or vented. And once we get to net-zero? Maybe they can use the energy to power direct air capture? Which is still a pretty ugly solution.

[@Merlin3189]

What puzzles me about this is money. When I first saw a flare stack and the size of the flame, I couldn't understand why someone was just throwing away money on such a large scale. I don't really understand the difficulty in capturing it? Perhaps I missed it in the video: I shall have to rewatch it. If they can capture it as it pours out of the ground in even larger volumes, what's different? I think they said it's dirty or impure, but surely it can't be as bad as the raw gas produced by distillation of coal, which was the backbone of urban gas supply in UK when I was young.

[@seneca983]

"I couldn't understand why someone was just throwing away money on such a large scale." Utilizing it might not be that cheap either. Of course, I'm just guessing here.

[@Merlin3189]

@@seneca983 Of course: that's why I mentioned coal gas. That was as filthy a mixture as you could get, so similarly had storage and processing costs, but they also had to buy coal to make it. Yet they still made a profit after they had cleaned it up. This stuff is being thrown away. Can they really not make a profit from processing it?

[@seneca983]

@@Merlin3189 In the case of coal gas it was a byproduct of producing coke (or if the gas was the main product you also got coke as byproduct). Also, the coal gas plants could probably close to where the gas was being consumed. Today, we don't need gas as much because the same things can be done with electricity. Oil fields where gas is flared might be in some remote locations where getting a gas pipeline can be expensive. If gas is cheap in that region and emissions don't have an associated cost it might make more commercial sense to just flare the gas. I'm not 100% of this but this is my best guess as to why in many places they have not bothered to utilize the gas.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

My understanding is that in a few cases it really is more expensive to do something with it than to just waste it, and in others they simply haven't bothered to do something else because 1 - they make plenty of money even with that waste 2 - they might not know what else they can do 3 - they might not have the resources (staff with time) to do the more complex thing

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Yes I think you're right. There would be upfront costs and extra complexity in all cases, and in some cases where there isn't a nearby pipeline or way to use the energy then it might just be more expensive to use the gas than to waste it.

[@mapmuncher5587]

From what just heard, gas companies are over-extracting and so need to vent off gas. Yet I find it hard to believe that this is profitable (backed up by the fact that the gulf states dont do it much), so why exactly do they do it. For instance in the UK theres plenty of demand for gas and we produce it, so why do they not just sell it?

[@mapmuncher5587]

Could it be 'low quality gas' if that exists.

[@oJasper1984]

How do you know we need 9% for products etcetera? It's an estimate i guess. But not only with... a lot of things about how we make things behind it, also partly subjective and involving assumptions about lifestyles and politics..

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

It's based on how we are currently using our fossil fuels. About 8% of today's fossil fuels are not burned, but used for those applications I mentioned. We could find non-fossil replacements for at least some of that if we cared enough about it, I'm sure.

[@oootoob]

I work in the industry and the problem is largely associated with existing and aging assets. I've worked on new projects for 20 years and can't think of any that have routine flaring as part of the design. It is much more expensive and operationally & technically challenging to retrofit flare gas recovery systems and other means to stop routine flaring, particularly if the asset only has a limited commercially viable life left and is built using old technology.

[@eskileriksson4457]

So where do the flaring come through? It's there, photographed.

[@oootoob]

@@eskileriksson4457 please re-read the comment. This is likely an existing asset.

[@eskileriksson4457]

@@oootoob Ok

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That's awesome. Can I ask which country you are working in?

[@oootoob]

@@EngineeringwithRosie I'm in the UK but I work on projects mostly in Europe and the Middle East, though have also done jobs in Australia, India and other places

[@Alan_Hans__]

Those numbers are fairly insane. Sadly as most of the world's oil comes from less than environmentally conscious countries there isn't a massive amount that can or will be done to clean up these emissions.

[@cerealport2726]

I think this is an ignorant perspective to have. You seem to be saying that there's no point doing anything about 3rd world countries? Some less charitable people would refer to that idea as the "bigotry of low expectations".

[@peterevenhuis2663]

Rosie, first time I disagree with your topic. I am in the industry, I hear non experienced people talking with out knowledge. Did you know that ship's build new or retrofit to LNG or other gas to burn, are first aloud to use as a trigger flame burn the most dirty fuel oil and by regulating need to install a flaring installation in order to burn any non used gas from their pipe system. That's is for ship's think now about power generation plants, the use of LNG will introduce way more flaring.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

It is definitely healthy to disagree from time to time! I would never want someone to just take my word for it on any topic, so thank you for writing this comment about your expertise 😊 As you point out, I am no expert in oil and gas exploration. But the guys I interviewed are definitely in the industry, working on these projects every day. You could take a look at the much more detail they have on their website about the kinds of projects that do (and don't) make sense. We can't eliminate flaring entirely from the kinds of projects they are working on, but we can make a dent in the amount of fugitive emissions. I don't think they are advocating using more LNG or other gas (I am certainly not), rather that we use the gas that would have been flared to displace existing uses of gas.

[@BernardLS]

WADR consumers need to be 'shamed' for consuming their 'wants' (like fast fashion) rather than their 'needs'. Total global CH4 release to atmosphere includes natural sources, such as anaerobic degradation of vegetation in lake / swamps, and agricultural sources, such as the quasi natural anaerobic degradation of vegetation in rice paddies. Commercial organisations such as multinational oil companies will view release and flaring as lost revenue opportunity while nationalised oil companies and the governments that control them may lack the expertise to realise the potential that they are losing. Better hop over to Flare Intel and see what they have to offer!

[@JoneKone]

Man I was visiting a oil refinery once and asked what is that flare for, and I was told that it was some byproduct that cannot be burned in a closed environment.. Who told me this, my co driver. Not an employee.. So PPL don't know or have a misconception. This happened in 2004.

[@BernardLS]

The flares are a safety features for many process, if only the pilot light is going every unit manager is happy if the flare is lighting up the countryside some one is going to have to explain as money is going to waste and the only thing the FOGI hates worse than 'quality giveaway' is 'money up the stack'. Fun fact the MSM will never video or photograph a quiescent flare, 'spectacle sells'.

[@tonystanley5337]

Its utterly ridiculous, give them a year to sort it out, then charge a proper carbon tax on them. Serious import taxes on countries production than don't have sufficient regulation or policing.

[@tlangdon12]

Part of the issue here is that the only leverage other countries have on the countries that are not making an effort to reduce flaring is not to buy the product, and if you don't buy the product, you can't have a say in how it is produced.

[@tonystanley5337]

@@tlangdon12 Receiving countries can place any tarifs they want on goods from any country for any reason. They can also place tarifs on goods from countries supporting a bad actor. The real problem is that they don't want to put the tarifs on, its profits before the environment.

[@goddardwb]

Passing emissions thru 700degC lithium separates the carbon releasing O2.

[@richardgoldsmith7278]

Policy makers should put a penalty framework in place that makes it cheaper to do the right thing, and threaten total closure if leakage to circumvent is discovered. Let’s get serious about controlling the industries that are going to ruin our futures if left to their own devices.

[@BernardLS]

Sadly in many jurisdictions the 'policy makers' also collect royalties / taxes from the process so may not be completely comfortable with 'killing the goose that lays the golden egg'. Safer to rely on corporate greed to reduce waste in search of revenue.

[@dtroy15]

Pretty surprising to see such high emissions from Iran and Iraq. They each produce about a third as much oil as the United States but more flare emissions. Why? Disappointing to see Iran decline to reduce flaring as well, but that's par for the course for Iran I suppose.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

The FlareIntel guys told me that in general, the cheaper the resource the more fugitive emissions. I guess it's natural to be less worried about wasting a bit when it is a really cheap and easy resource to extract. So in the absence of strong policies to eliminate fugitive emissions, all the countries with cheap oil and gas resources will naturally have higher flare intensity.

[@BernardLS]

@@EngineeringwithRosie There is also the issue of needing to have the levels of expertise, skill and competence to reduce the waste as well as the ruling elite having the inclination to do the right thing. Surprised your video did not mention the 'Gates of Hell' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darvaza_gas_crater

[@paoemantega8793]

Why is gas flaring dirtier ?

[@francisvaughan7460]

Capture for Bitcoin mining is little short of insane. This is actively looking for new markets for CO2 emission. Bitcoin is bad enough as it is in its emissions without a business going out to justify even more CO2 emission. Flaring is an interesting question. High combustion efficiency flaring at least gets the methane emission down, and we are left with CO2. A net greenhouse gas improvement. Flare reduction that is not actively displacing existing CO2 emitting activities is at best not helping, and may actually be making things worse.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

I agree, you might have noticed I started laughing when he said bitcoin mining! But I do think that you could do other high performance computing tasks that aren't a total waste of energy, so I don't disagree with the concept, just the implementation 😊 I have an upcoming video about green certification schemes that use blockchain, and we will very briefly mention associated emissions there. I want to do a full video or maybe livestream on the topic soon, so if you know a lot about it, please let me know if there are any websites or articles I should read, experts I should get in touch with.

[@TXsharon]

Please forget about carbon capture. It requires more expansion of oil and gas and everywhere that happens it results in sacrifice zones.

[@guygillmore2970]

horrific! This is why we need a really, really high gas price - then the market will clear itself up.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Good point! A really high gas price would certainly make companies aware of what they're losing through flaring, venting and leaking! I guess we have that now, if the price stays high then it will be interesting to see whether we see the reduction we would expect.

[@joelado]

My entire life I've been looking at gas flares and wondering why it was allowed. Complete waste.

[@kingofthend]

Well this got relevant recently. Now we can add flaring for political reasons to the list lol I do kinda ask myself what the impact will be though. Sooner or later siberian gas fields will be shut down because there will be no demand so that's a point where leakage could occur I guess.

[@ronpetitt1873]

So the argument here is mainly that this energy source is just being dumped into the emissions footprint with no net benefit? If the gas were captured it will eventually be dumped into the footprint anyways. Gas burned now for no reason vs gas burned later for energy source. Am I oversimplifying this? I agree that this is incredible waste but do not see any environmental benefit.

[@ronpetitt1873]

Looking again I see the sheer volume issue being a major factor.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

The benefit would be that the energy "burned later for energy source" would prevent other fossil fuels from being burned, so reduce the total emissions. Which won't happen if the energy is used for something totally unnecessary like say bitcoin mining 😉 (my opinion). When we are no longer burning any fossil fuels, then it would either have to be captured or used to power direct air capture. Because yes, you are right that it is still a source of emissions if it's burned.

[@sergarlantyrell7847]

So much waste... Its such a shame. Given how that's potential profit for the gas companies, literally going up in smoke, I'm surprised how they don't run it through a gas turbine & generator to at least get useful energy out of it to decrease their operating costs.

[@TheRenaSystem]

We're fucked

[@djash7161]

No one is Watching the Bag of Criminals

[@davieb8216]

Australia is Soo bad : (

[@PinataOblongata]

"I don't know what calculations they are using for their emissions, are they fully accounting for them?" Of course they aren't and are just fudging numbers for PR - it needs to be up to an independent assessor and regulator, not up to companies to police themselves, because they have shown they will not.