How to ground loop your Luscombe

[@MrGunPilot]

Good video and lesson. Thanks for sharing.

[@tsuranix]

Great lesson. Easy to assume the winds haven't changed after that many laps around the pattern.

[@quinnjim]

It looks like you landed crooked which started the swerve to the left. Got to keep the nose straight down the runway. Glad it worked out!

[@scottramsey9403]

WOW! Surprises me that the tower has active runway downwind. I've landed downwind if absolutely necessary, but it is never a good proposition! You did a good job avoiding a disaster.

[@richardhindman1855]

Good video.

[@frdml01]

same for flight information en route. I almost always get informed by radar info about traffic near by. But not always! So; keep looking out yourself!

[@thepilot9796]

One of the #1 causes of ground loops or loss of directional control, even in a crosswind is the wheel landing, yes! If ypu have weak rudder application and keep power applied, the ground will come. Secert, get the tail planted so you have 3 points and then decel with brakes ASAP if it is very windy. As long as you are ponting in the direction you want! Practice, practice. Been there. with over 3000 in small tailwheels to B17/DC3/DC3TP, T6 etc....it works everytime! Good luck and fly safe!

[@baker2niner]

Just to note, If you have any lateral movement, it's due to the position of your ailerons. Also, the side shot of the tail coming down is a concern. Tailwind landings are the same as any other, except for requiring more patience (not to over-control). You did that well here. Check the elevator position on other ground loop videos - few (any?) have "UP" elevator (stick *pinned* back) when the TW is on the ground. When the tail stops flying, TW needs to be held firmly to the stops and kept there till you tie down. Stick-in-the-gut on the ground eventually feels "normal". The nose wheel has the engine on top of it (along with CG behind it), which gives it great authority. The tailwheel only has a couple pounds of tail feathers and CG is 12ft ahead, so you need to put all the aerodynamic downforce on it you can. As you mention, you needed to be more aggressive about finding wind direction and puffiness. Find a sock, flag, grass, trees or water, whatever. FWIW, Pre-war airplanes, like the Luscombe, have big, responsive rudders compared to post-war designs. Luscombe slip great and are easy to slip into a xwind - you basically "remove" controls rather than "add" them. You dope the xwind and cross controls on short final and just work them out as you touchdown, in one smooth motion, rather than crossing controls at the last second on touchdown. This was not ground loop. I confess, I have. On a hot Saturday, drifting drowsily into complacency during a 1 1/2 hr drone to visit a friend, I ground looped the 8A. To get really comfortable I put the elbow out the window and splayed my feet in the cabin. I landed in front of a taxi line of banner tows and a P-51(!) waiting to take off. As I touched down, I added touch of left rudder to stay on the centerline, then a bit of right rudder to correct. She kept going left, so I gave her more "right" until she snapped around and I was going backwards down the runway. Gave it a burst of throttle to stop. Then oriented myself and taxied off the runway, wishing I hadn't forgotten my invisible cloaking device (ICD). A low-key and obviously amused, "wow" came over Unicom from one of the banner tows. Luscombe have small cabins and I had kept my feet splayed for the landing - both feet were on "left" rudder pedals. When I pressed my right foot, I got *more* left rudder. The 8A has the same early-style landing gear this 8, too, which is known for "folding" more easily than the later "Silflex" gear, which resists side loads better. The plane snapped around so fast that the side load didn't hit the gear long enough to fold it. Luckily, no damage - tough little bird. (2000hrs in J3, Luscombe, birddog, stearman, Skywagon -- not a great amount, but a bunch off airport. 40hrs in trikes, total. :)

[@oldglory1944]

No mention of POWERFULL ailerone being used. Twice the area of the rudder, unstalled, and Twice the leverage of the wee rudder.

[@scotti158]

I have a lot of respect for people that make a mistake, admit it, then post it publicly for others to learn by. Great video.

[@martinodendaal9267]

Great. Very educational. Thanks for posting.

[@juancruzcastellanos7987]

I'm amazed on how people don't realize that with no aileron input, the rudder has little to no authority on crosswind landings.

[@brandoncenteno1834]

Very simple: you did not land with nose pointed down the axis of the runway, while travelling down the axis of the runway. You had an excellent ground track down centerline, but were carrying a crab angle. Upon touchdown, the wheels began traveling in the direction they were pointed, exacerbated by the tailwheel wanting to go with the aircraft momentum (down centerline). I'm not a tailwheel guy, but I am a CFI :) it seems that proper crosswind correction would've mitigated this before it became an issue. Nice save though! didn't panic.

[@davidrhoads3023]

How to ground loop YOUR Luscombe.

[@ZhihengCao]

Are you saying the wind shifted and you had more cross wind after touch down? Assuming the same cross wind was there before and after touch down, the reason you weathervaned to the left after touch down is probably you let go of the left aileron you had (before touchdown, otherwise you would be drifting to the right) after touch down (bad habit from front wheel airplane?)

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

I see you pushed the left pedal after touchdown, released then pushed it again when over the side lines.

[@reggiepaulk]

Thank you for sharing your experience. As a tailwheel flight Instructor, my first thought was, “Where is his aileron input?” Even with the tailwind, you had plenty of control authority left to prevent drifting across the runway. Tailwheel flying is about using ALL of your controls-not just rudder.

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

He is right, dam idiot.

[@Jugheadf15]

This exactly.

[@UncleWiggy252]

First thing I noticed.

[@vracan]

that windsock did not look tailwind, it looked 90deg crosswind

[@simonhampton.6441]

Great video. The figurine should not be where it is. Airborne that could hide something long enough for you to hit it.

[@jackryan152]

Was that deer valley?

[@timsaxer6442]

@Tom Roorda. You are mistaken about how a rudder works on an airplane. As long as the airplane is going faster than the tailwind component, the crosswind component is from exactly the same direction.

[@timsaxer6442]

@Tailwheel Shenanigans. I am afraid that you barely assessed the problems correctly. You MUST put aileron, in this case to the left, to stop the swerve to the left. The video shows you putting right aileron when the swerve was starting, and then neutralizing the input. Without holding the upwind wheel down with aileron, this guarantees the start of the weathervane will put more pressure on the downwind wheel and start the groundloop. Reggie Paulk in his comment said the same thing. You must put aileron into the wind to stop the weathervaning. I know this thread is quite old, but hope it is of some use.

[@hkb1467]

Great video. Mature person.

[@codykreitel8737]

I had a similar experience recently in a nose wheel aircraft. I landed at a runway with a pretty blustery head wind with a bit of a crosswind from the left. I don't remember the exact winds but it was somewhere around 15kts gusting to 25 kts about 10 degrees off runway centerline - the landing went very well. I left the plane for about two hours and then came back to take off. When I was getting ready to take off and listening to the ATIS, I noticed the wind had shifted such that, if I took off on the same runway, I would now have a tail wind of similar magnitude and crosswind component as when I landed. However, there was a plane in the pattern doing pattern work using the same runway I had landed on. I assume they had started doing pattern work with a head wind and the wind shifted while they were in the pattern. This was at a non-towered airport, but the on-field FSS advised me to use the same runway as the airplane in the pattern. So I blindly followed their direction. On my takeoff roll, right as I was about to rotate, I felt my tail start to lift from a gust of wind and it felt like my mains came off the ground just a tad. Luckily, I was at rotation speed and I pulled back with enough authority to quickly correct the problem but not so much as to cause a stall. In the end, there was no incident. But, the lesson I learned is that I AM THE PIC. I should not take off with a tail wind because someone on the radio told me too. Luckily it was a cheap lesson.

[@rallyden]

I agree with reggie. Plenty of control authority and I was wondering the same....aileron? The left wing never showed any “push” down towards the ground. And tailwind....what does that do? As far as the airplane is concerned, it is still feeling the wind from the front just after landing, when your nose went left almost immediately after touchdown. And w a light tailwheel plane, you want to consider getting that tail down early to give you some traction.

[@Jimbo-pm1dp]

The most important advice I would give to a tailwheel student or any tailwheel flyer is something I learned many hrs ago....that is once your flying speed has bled off....mains on ground....bury that stick back to your belly....until you slow to a walk....this puts more down pressure on the tailwheel which kinda plants that tailwheel on the ground with much more steering and resistance to coming around on you (looping)....otherwise with a neutral stick the tail just bounces around goin wherever it wants to go....also whenever possible (always) let the plane go in a straight line as long as your not going to hit something....to often people loop their planes from over controlling to fix a crooked landing....no one should be afraid of tailwheels.....Good luck !!! Ohh and make sure you learn to use those feet on those rudders....chances are youve barely used them in trikes !!

[@timfarmer1125]

From the video it looks as though you have the stick full back, which is good, but why are the ailerons neutral? Shouldn't they be cranked over into the crosswind?

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

One little question my friend pilot. Are you right handed of left handed? That can have the answer for why the airplane went to the left. Im an expert on Emergency Low Maneuvering. ELM- as my channel name.

[@garyhinkle4917]

Started flying tail draggers in the 60s, before I was old enough to solo. That was not a ground loop. It was getting close to becoming one. That was a good save. You stayed with it, as you should, and didn't panic. The mark of a good pilot.

[@rhb8663]

Totally agree. Another mark of a good pilot is a willingness to share mistakes with others.

[@iflyc77]

Good on you for sharing this. I didn't see any notes about aileron useage though. With that much left crosswind there should be significant if not full left, upwind aileron. You say you had full right rudder and that wasn't enough authority - adverse yaw from some left aileron would have increased your yaw moment to the right and helped you stay in position. Everyone focuses on the rudder in tailwheel airplanes - but the ailerons are just as important for doing it right, and fixing swerves or other mistakes.

[@jackoneil3933]

Thanks for sharing, and how's your cross-wind landings and comfort level progressing? From back here I could see Hula Girl was not straight. You were over the centre-line but landing in a crab, and when you let the left main and tailwheel touch you were going for a ride. I used to do the same thing until an old Navy guy who taught in Stearmans drilled me on how to perceive and what it took to keep the nose within less than a degree of skid. He had me do numerous quartering tailwind landings in the Luscombe, J3 and a 170 until I was able to intuitively sense and correctly apply proper technique. In this example, if you needed to add a little left slip rather than a skid to maintain zero-skid and track straight down the center-line.

[@mtcondie]

Thanks for the video! I appreciate you sharing your experience.

[@AzangBugs]

Thx for a great video. My observations, in addition to yours, FWIW:1. Great comment from RetGI about a G/A. You touched down with flying speed.2. Yep, watch the wind socks but they can lie too. Some days they are all pointing at each other.3. You touched down in a very slight crab. No bueno, especially in a Luscombe. That's why the immediate lurch to the left - the airplane went where it was pointed. Aim that nose exactly straight ahead - accept no errors - and opposite aileron to stop drift. 4. Even if TWR had seen the wind, don't expect them to put down their sandwich and flip the airport around just for one taildragger. But don't accept ANY tailwind in a taildragger. Ask TWR for the opposite runway. 5. That's one from the luck bag and into the experience bag. REAL GOOD JOB not over controlling and ground looping the other way. A lot of guys would have bent metal.6. See #1.Enjoy your Luscombe. Great little airplane.

[@jeremykemp3782]

Thank you very much for the footage

[@stephenyoungblood3683]

I think you needed more left wing down, into the wind.

[@oldglory1944]

Notice no ailerone LEFT for the KNOWN xwind & ailerone yaw to aid in directional control. INFACT...what we see here, is a bit of ailerone to the right, which aggravates the LEFT turning about the vertical axis, by increasing lift/drag on left wing, and decreasing lift/drag on right wing. Rule of thumb on the runway capt: Ailerons PROPORTIONALY OPPOSITE THE RUDDER. Note: It's just just a X controled, cross wind landing technique. Happy landings all. RRFuchs CFI 1507987 since 1963.

[@sarahd3876]

going off in an Extra last year, first flight out of the year, swerving all over and wondering why. I hadn't noticed the sock was favouring tail wind. If I had, I maybe would have gently run her up to a speed where I would have rudder authority, or is the answer to nail the throttle and get some wash going back over the rudder???

[@oldglory1944]

Use ailerons to assist with directional control. Generally, 2x the surface area, unstalled, and twice the leverage.

[@mikedial7870]

Good lesson!

[@benc1103]

Ditto on the above comments. Needed lots of left aileron. Classic aircraft have lots of adverse yaw. But that is a good thing during crosswind landings. Also, the stick was not full aft, allowing the tail wheel to float. Tailwheel needs to be pinned to the ground with full aft stick, otherwise you lose the directional stability it offers. Or, the tail can be high, where the fin sticks up into the breeze. Between tail high and tail on the ground is "no mans land", and you need good old adverse yaw from the ailerons to assist the rudder to keep the plane from weathervaning into the wind.

[@DeanCully]

A cognitive concept one as an aviator should become familiar with and wary of is "confirmation bias." It nearly caused me to wreck my Luscombe 8E recently (on its 73rd "birthday," too), despite 30 years professional piloting experience including 18 in that airplane. Someday I'll produce a video about it. And I agree with a commenter below that this was an incipient ground-loop, not the full-on thing.

[@ChelseaFrost24]

Try getting the ailerons into the wind. Might help.

[@johnpatrickbishop]

Good experience and don't feel bad. To celebrate my 100th hour of tailwheel I took a dawn flight to one of my favorite airports and managed to take the Luscombe off the runway and into the grass. Wind was almost non-existent. It was an important lesson for me to stay humble. And one of the most important skills you can develop is to land and rollout on one wheel. Have fun and keep the videos coming.

[@DeanCully]

And if you can initially practice those maneuvers on a groomed turf or dirt runway, so much the safer/forgiving; but don't let that lull you into complacency on a sticky-grippy paved runway.

[@mmichaeldonavon]

Like at least one commenter said: "Ditch the dancing girl!" :) I'm in agreement. Also, why not land on the Upwind main gear wheel, AND the tail wheel at the same time? This "Two wheel contact" will keep the wind from trying to weathervane your plane.You could hold a crab right into the Roundout - rudder to straighten out - Main gear wheel and tail wheel and you are home free! Wheel landing, IMHO, are OK, but if that cross wind is like more than 30 degrees off the nose, the wind in really going to pivot your plane around on the two main gear. Put the tail wheel down with that upwind gear - then the wind will find it hard to pivot your plane.I learned that from some really "old timers" - they swear by it, so I tried it - and I liked it! :) I'm a rookie tail wheeler, so anything I could find to help myself, I tried. This worked for me. Thanks, nice video

[@vitoruffalo2576]

There was no mention of the change in wind condition from the tower?

[@thepurpleufo]

This guy probably learned to fly in an airplane with tricycle landing gear...and later started flying a tailwheel airplane. That's why he *thinks* he didn't have enough rudder authority...and why he wasn't paying attention to the windsock, and why he couldn't feel that something wasn't right. You start out wrong (with tricycle gear) and you will never get it quite right. Not his fault...it's just the way it is.

[@jerrysmith5782]

I learned in Taylorcraft, Cub, Citabria, Luscombe 8A and was always taught to seriously pin the main wheels to the ground when doing a wheel landing by aggressively popping the stick forward as soon as ground contact was made. I noticed that you were not doing that...no pitch change when your wheels contacted the ground. Another commenter mentioned that you should either do a full stall landing OR a wheel landing (preferably a wheel landing, in a crosswind), but that your landing seemed more like something in-between, which may have blanked out proper airflow to the rudder.

[@tommidd8042]

I had the same exact thing happen with a Citabria. I pushed full throttle and right rudder and continued flying. Was a close call..

[@pb3030]

Thanks for the video. As one comment already said, you landed in a slight crab. That started the ball rolling, and the crab combined with the tailwind nearly put you in the hurt locker. Maybe the best option would have been to add power and go around. The prop wash would have given you rudder. Remember: a landing is nothing more than an aborted go around. But, as others also noted, you kept working the problem and saved it.

[@missionpilot9291]

Finished my Private and my first 70 hours after that was in an 1946 $12,500 8A that I bought. Upgraded and my next 600 was in an 1947 8E. I was in High Cotton with that starter, radio, transponder, metal wings, and two fuel tanks. The 12 to 15 knots a few degrees left head wind at the beginning of the video first got my attention a bit but it was not crazy. Luscomes are not that much fun at all above anything over 15 knots in any direction on any day that is for sure. The sight of the two air intake humps of the top of the cowling gave me goose bumps and it all came flooding back to me : ) Within the first few seconds of the flight portion of the video I could see immediately that you were WAY to fast on short final. The no ruder authority especially at the higher roll out speed after you did smoothly touched down threw me for a curve. I was wondering what the heck was wrong with the airplane. If you were at around 40 IAS on the roll out after touch down the 15 tailwind explains the no rudder. Otherwise a Luscombe has tons of good rudder after about 30 to 35 forward airspeed. Like most other airports, yours does not have a retractable runway edge lighting system. Great save and you taxied the with the stick all of the way back. Nice job and video.Luscombes are a great airplane and fast for the HP if light and rigged correctly. Fly safe Bro.

[@tailwheelpilot1234]

Nice recovery though. And I agree, the only wind directions I tend to believe are the ones indicated by the windsock.

[@DeanCully]

This assumes the windsock staff is plumb (often not the case at Alaskan villages on permafrost) and not frozen or biased with snow or dirt, or otherwise in poor condition/defective. Some things to consider.

[@tomroorda9560]

The rudder works in reverse with a tailwind. Same thing happens in a sailboat when motoring out with an outgoing tide.

[@5695q]

In the early 90's I watched a nicely restored Waco cabin biplane land at an airport in California, as he touched down and started rolling out the wind switched 180 and he drifted off the runway and hit the tetrahedron literally destroying the aircraft. It's not done until tied down and even then things can happen. Wind can be blowing down the runway and switch as you go or switch after you check the sock, just something to add to the knowledge bank.

[@FalconImagery]

Had the exact same thing happen to me at a towered airport. I should have said unable base on the wind direction being a quarterly right tail wind. I accepted it, and just missed having a very bad day. I had a camera mounted on the plane. You can see it at my channel if you so desire.

[@challenger2aircraftadventures]

VERY informative! Something a rookie like myself will have to take into account. I guess when you get into that repeat practice "zone", you start taking things for granted, like the wind conditions. My landing checklist it has no "verify winds" is on it. Probably because it's obtained before you enter the pattern and establish what runway to use. Maybe when doing touch and go practice rounds, I should modify a practice checklist to include "verify winds" prior to entering the down wind leg? A quick glance at the wind sock would be sufficient, and if the winds did change, it would be noticeable. Then a wind check could be asked of the control tower. Thanks again for sharing, and for the great camera angles! I never considered buying some sports cameras as part of my flight equipment, but clearly even for personal use it has great value.

[@chucklemasters6433]

looking at the airspeed indicator or ANYTHING inside the aircraft when over the numbers is a BAD idea! some left aileron would have brought the airplane back to the right towards the centerline. i noticed your left hand was frozen in place with no aileron. that is better than right aileron which is what most nosewheel pilots would have done. that would have put you off the left side of the runway immediately! i have saved many ground loops by correct aileron usage which is steer in the direction you are going. next time you have just landed and are rolling down a nice long 4500' runway like that one try making suttle aileron inputs and watch the airplane go the opposite way you are steering and also notice how those aileron inputs are a lot stronger than rudder inputs. few pilots know and use this information.

[@Travelair2000]

You learned humility. That’s good. Awesome, really. It’s never too late to go around! Practice balked landings as part of your routine. Even with all of my tailwheel time, I still find myself going around when it doesn’t pan out as I expected it to. Don’t fight it, just go around, think about what went wrong, and develop a plan to mitigate it on the next approach. Great video, thank you for sharing it.

[@FLHTdriver]

Has this been an issue before? I am wondering if your main wheels are correctly aligned with just a bit of toe in. I had a T-Craft that had this issue. The left main was toe out by 3/4", that made the gear spread and then spring back. Great on grass but hell on the hard surfaces. Good save on the landing, you seem to have good directional control of the aircraft thru the roll out from what I can see. It looks like you may have loaded the main wheels to much to soon after touchdown but everything else looks okay. Cant see what your doing with the rudder peddles thou.

[@mqbitsko25]

Oh shit! No wonder the ground was whipping by so fast! I'm impressed it didn't swap ends. You got the flying right. Just the wrong direction.

[@joejody7814]

Boy Howdy .. That much drift on touch down makes for a go round. Of course hind sight is always 20/20 .. But wings level and with ANY drift is asking for initiation of angular velocity (rotation) about the mains. That rotation adds to the weather vaning .. Rudder, brake and a prayer often insufficient. Nothing like finding the beast within a tailwheeled bird.

[@dalewhelan5911]

When I run out of rudder authority, I add throttle and get it back.

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

If the nose is going left, and then you put FULL POWER, it will torque even more to the left, that is how many accidents happen, put the nose to middle of runway, then slowly add power. Taildragger CFI.

[@Dlgeis]

Ailerons should have been very intentionally displaced into the wind at touchdown. Ailerons displacement intensity and direction based on there displacement at touchdown. Yours stayed mostly centered. Rudder was late and slow to be applied. It should have been aggressive and early. Your inputs were similar to tricycle gear inputs. Not correct tricycle gear inputs but inputs that people get by with. To stay in top shape for conventional gear aircraft make every takeoff and landing dead center and don’t accept directional deviation. Make every landing as if you are landing on a 10’ wide runway with a sheer drop on each side.

[@jeremyacton4569]

Great save!! Interesting vid.

[@ethanhiggins4887]

When doing multiple landings i like to ask for a weather update every couple landings in case I cant catch a wind change

[@joeheitz1833]

I always request "wind-check" whilst on final (I 'drive' a Carbon Cub) at a controlled airport.

[@TinselKoala]

Yeah, I knew you were way fast (groundspeed) over the numbers. I felt like you were in a Mooney instead of a Luscombe, the groundspeed was so high. Clue number one that all isn't as expected. Of course it does help to glance at the sock now and then. So tailwind explains that part. That "add power to keep the tailwheel up" also didn't help, I think. I'm racking my brain to try to remember if I ever did that once the mains were on the ground. Fwd stick, sure, if necessary, but power? (High time glider towplane pilot with thousands of taildragger landings in all kinds of winds, me, but the memory isn't what it used to be. But I do remember this much: if you have to think about what you are doing during a wheel landing in a quartering tailwind, you are behind the airplane already and headed for the GL. It needs to be trained into muscle memory by constant practice.)

[@plasmasword10]

Oh nice You fly out of deer valley!

[@michaelmorrison5675]

Good training tool.

[@shannonwhitaker9630]

Everyone to their own but the dash decoration would get removed immediately. I wouldn't want anything like that blocking forward vision. Yeah it's cute and funny but no man not in my plane. When you fly an Ultralight you better damn well be looking at the windsock on every landing. Good landing still, lesson learned.

[@fieldsman3307]

You got away with it so simply lucky, to have a greater degree of control you should be doing 3 point landings , your tailwheel was off the ground all the time that the situation was developing.

[@airmuseum]

Send the doll back to Hawaii. At least you don't have the dingle berries around the windows like a Tijuana taxi.. A fly speck on the windscreen had me rolling my aircraft trying to avoid colliding with it! That shaking hula girl could blank out a 747!

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

That is his support toy maybe. Gets too nervous without it.

[@RetiredGI]

I would submit that a GO AROUND would have been in order the when you started second guessing and about half way to the left side of the runway. That would have given you time to insure control inputs and the airplane were working properly and then assess the physical environment to see what was different from the last landings. Glad you salvaged the situation but never be afraid of going around and regrouping.

[@toddsutton5672]

who the hell teaches you people to fly. worst thing to do in a crosswind, is wheel landings. 3 point every time that way you have control at all times

[@jeremykemp3782]

1000 bucks this guy does NOT have his pilots license. What a very immature comment!!! Shame on you

[@toddsutton5672]

@@jeremykemp3782 wrong over 1000 hrs in many different tailwheel aircraft including single seat pitts. and 300 in 8E luscombe. too fast. dont try to fly it on, do a tail low flare until the main touch and the pin with forward stick. A major part of learning to fly is judgement, 15 knot cw is rather stiff for your first wheel landing which should also be done on grass until you figure out the airplane. You owe me a 1000 bucks.

[@PhilbyFavourites]

Todd Sutton: Did he pay?