The Ground Loop Monster

[@serg2963]

You say you're not an instructor... but you did a far better job at explaining this, then I've ever heard. Well done, Trent!

[@TrentonPalmer]

Thanks Serg!

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

Trent, I am a CFI and have 1100 hours tailwheel time in aircraft from T6’s to Cubs and have to say you did an EXCELLENT job with this video. Well done! And, yup....keep those rudders pedals moving. “Happy feet” is the best way to deny the “Ground Loop Monster” 😉

[@travisminneapolis]

As just a drone pilot at the moment, I really enjoyed this explanation and am glad to hear a CFI found it accurate. Trent, you rock

[@pappybo49]

My very 1st landing (I was 14 years old and learning in a J3 ) ended in a ground loop. That was in 1963 and I’ve never been bitten again. There was no damage to anything but my pride, but I learned my lesson and I learned to dance on those pedals. My instructor thought it was hilarious but when he quit laughing, he explained exactly what happened and took me to our practice area for an intense lesson on rudder control. Good video. Keep up the good work. Thanks. After all these years I still prefer flying taildraggers.

[@chrisholbourn2793]

As an ex tail wheel instructor I’d say you’re pretty spot on Trent. LOVE your model and demonstration on the treadmill. Love the videos man. Keep em coming.

[@johnnukecop]

This was the single best, clearest explanation I have ever seen or heard of a ground loop. I got the concept with the RC model, but the demonstrations with the model you built and with the luggage cart nailed it. I hope you would be at least credited for it, but I cannot believe that some instructors would not use this to help explain the concept. I could see an instructor sitting with his or her student, smart phone in hand, saying "hey, watch this", before the first flight. Funny thing, I was going to say really nice things about the intro because it was so well done, but the lesson was just outstanding.

[@TrentonPalmer]

Thanks John!

[@jeffgrave]

Thanks Trent for taking the time to create a physical model to demonstrate this affect, very well done!

[@martinjrichter55]

I learned to fly in a tail wheel Cessna 140. At solo I had some problem seeing the the angle between the direction the plane was moving and the centerline of the aircraft. I took a piece of tape and made a centerline on the cowl, that simple vissual reference immediately solved the problem.

[@tailwheelpilot1234]

With almost 50 years in tw, first a C140 and now my C120, this is great advice. Although I've never ground-looped, I've seen two, one right in front of me, and the second about 1/4 mile away. You are exactly right, at some point you'll know your aircraft so well that you will anticipate and correct this swerving tenancy immediately. I've found that taking cross-wind runways for landing has helped a lot, one will have lots of deviations and can practice for them. Force the aircraft to go straight down the runway. If there is drift, there is a problem in the making. Well thought out video.

[@TrentonPalmer]

Thanks! And I am in the same boat as you only a lot of years less experience. But I have watched a few ground loops right in front of me. Never any fun.

[@michaelwilliamsd.o.5006]

Thx to you I'm flying again. I started with RC aircraft on flight test and found you. I had given up on ever flying again. My pilot license from the 90's was dusty and I was rusty. The government shutdown has my medical stuck in Oklahoma City but my CFI has me ready to solo again. I bought a 1957 Cessna 172 and my wife has started ground school. I'm so excited and thankful for your inspirational videos. I've learned so much from you, avation 101, MZeroA and many others. I hope to shake your hand in person soon at a fly in somewhere. Thank you. Doc Mike in TEXAS

[@shahzadnaqvi9380]

Windows Operating System

[@gveasey1]

One of the best explanations! I have been flying tailwheels for 40 years and am still in the gonna category. The CG behind the mainwheels is the physics, but your model on the treadmill was priceless! GREAT JOB!

[@UncleKennysPlace]

That's probably the most use your treadmill has had in years.

[@TrentonPalmer]

I can tell you for a fact it’s the only use it’s gotten in years 🤪

[@fadedflage]

We taught the dog to use it

[@josephleblanc965]

Lol

[@kwittnebel]

The best use of a treadmill I have ever seen is the ddwfttw Blackbird series. That stuff is a total mind bender. Immense fun reading the comments as as people struggle to wrap their brains around it.

[@dibaldgyfm9933]

​@@kwittnebel ddwfttw: "Dead DownWind Faster Than The Wind" oops! That really is something! But you could perhaps elaborate, or I can give a link: www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/museum/ddwfttw.htm ... though I am still sceptical! But I came here to say thanks for the treadmill-explanation. Love and LOL.

[@duncancrittenden8519]

Trent I started trying to get my private pilots license in 1996. So what that equates to is I ordered the sporty skit and started watching the videos and started falling asleep. Now the reason for this is my friend was a pilot and I flew with him all the time and he wanted me to get my license and start flying with him. I used to race Motorcross and quads. Anyway I’m 49 Yrs old now and I got my sportys kit out and started watching it again last night. Ive been watching your videos and I think I want to get my license and start flying but the bush planes are what I like. You guys are my kind of people. Adventurous and I like that. I like the kit fox. Especially what you did with the upgrades. Anyway I have enjoyed your videos keep them coming. I’ll try to come to Oshkosh and meet the cowboys. Who knows I may be one soon! Later Duncan Crittenden Freeport fl

[@tomjoseph1444]

My family had always owned tail draggers (Cessna 170, T-Craft, DC 3, etc,). I only heard the axiom of have/will ground loop from bus drivers whose aircraft had the tail wheel on the wrong end. You must "fly" a conventional gear aircraft even when on the ground.

[@svendholme3627]

I am a 76 year old geezer who was never able to afford to fly but always wanted to fly bush planes low and slow. Your demo of ground loop dynamics especially the airport cart, was astonishingly enlightening. Nothing magic, just basic physics demonstrated slowly without drama. It just happens before your eyes, I must have watched that clip a dozen times in amazement.

[@fritzdit7829]

Loved the model on the tread mill. Explained it very well. 😊

[@jdduncan]

Excellent explanation! I have been flying RC aircraft for 40 years and am an RC instructor. I plan to have my students watch this video so they can understand how and why ground loops happen.

[@billhamilton2366]

Trent....Many years ago in the Great White North, I taught myself to fly taildragers in my Champion airyplane. It was many years after that before I actually had an instructor sign off my log book , a mere formality. I also taught myself to fly floats in both of my planes, the Camp and a Stinson 108. Both tail draggers have many hours (about 40 years worth)on them with me at the controls. I only came close to a ground loop once when I was distracted on rollout due to the big fan in the front stopping. Minor adjustment to the carburetor corrected that. My idle was a tad too slow with the carb heat on.

[@SuperAero]

Proud to say I got my first ground loop out of the way in my primary training. J-3 Cub, happened on roll out, super slow, no damage. You’re spot on about the end phase where you’re just along for the ride. You can have full left rudder applied and just be rotating to the right. Glad mine happened early so I could feel what it’s like.

[@4xoverland]

Excellent explanation. I've explained it by comparing it to a game of darts. Every time a pilot lands a taildragger, its like getting a dart to hit the board going backwards.

[@paulmoore5401]

I’m an experienced USN pilot and airline pilot. I’m new to GA and tail draggers and I really appreciate this quality instruction. Thank you.

[@ADVRider990]

Trent, more of this please.... I'm currently 20 + hours into training as a (tail wheel only) student pilot fighting off the Monster. My intention is to keep my training all pure tail wheel. Your simulation of trike and tail is the best and most useful illustration of how things work that I have seen yet. Please share more of your real world tail wheel learning experiences with us future Flying Cowboys in training.

[@MotoFlightGuy]

Another adventure bike guy getting his PPL? I love it! Same here. I find that these 2 hobbies overlap quite often. Good luck with your flight training!

[@ADVRider990]

@@MotoFlightGuy Yes, as an avid off-road, back-country motorcyclist, Trent and the Cowboys have shown me a new level of "Dual Sport Adventure Riding" that can extend my reach deeper into the bush.

[@MotoFlightGuy]

@@ADVRider990 that's EXACTLY why I am drawn to back country flying as well. It's just a natural fit for an off road motorcyclist.

[@kev58896]

I’m learning tail dragger myself in a Kitfox. No clue what a trike is like... my instructor recommended a good book, “the compleat taildragger pilot”. Definitely helps me grasp the physics around them a lot better.

[@_skyyskater]

1. Stay proactive. Dance, dance, dance! 2. Required inputs will change depending on the phase of rollout/takeoff. 3. Stay off the breaks until your tailwheel is on the ground and you have let enough energy bleed off. Then apply breaks evenly and slowly. Before takeoff and touchdown, make sure that your feet are AWAY from the breaks. This was one that I needed to work on. Easy to get into a bad habit and real easy to cause you trouble. 3. FLY THE PLANE UNTIL THE ENGINE STOPS. It will probably click after more practice. The only ones you'll want to keep reminding yourself about is #2 and #3. That's pretty much all that I can think of.

[@matsfreedom]

My little Boredom Fighter biplane had a locking tailwheel which prevented ground loops. It worked perfectly. I forgot to lock it prior to take off once, and sure enough, upon landing, the monster came alive! No damage to the plane, but I felt 3 feet tall. Flying is great fun, but it is a game of caution, preparation, and ongoing training. Flying skills don't last forever, either, so know your limitations as the years go by. Nice presentation, Trent!

[@Easy2flyfr]

Right on spot, many thanks Trent for this imaginative way of showing the famed Ground Loop Monster - Jean-Marc

[@ronmartin3755]

Love your videos. I learned to fly in a Luscombe Silvaire. Taught by my father who had 40,500 hours of flying before he retired and flew no more! I have 5000 hours in tail draggers of many different types pf planes. Not once have I nor my father, ever ground looped a plane! The Luscombe I learned in is hanging in the Permian Basin Petroleum Museum in Midland Texas. The Plane was used as a leak finder for Mobile Oil Pipelines from 1951 to around 1964 when Magnolia Oil, the Subsidiary pipeline company of Mobile purchased Cessna 172s to replace the Luscumbes. Since N2645 was the first plane Magnolia Oil bought for their Pipline service they have loaned it to the Museum for display. My father and I along with my youngest son made a trip to see the plane before my father passed and he left pictures of he the plane and all pilots standing in front of this Luscombe. If you google Permian Basin Petroleum's Luscombe you will find the plane.

[@gottafly30]

dude excellent analogy with the 3 wheel shopping cart demo!

[@julianbrelsford]

Hah! I have personally tried to get a shopping cart to roll backwards without turning around. It doesn't wanna do it!

[@GLICKMIRE]

You are exactly right about active rudder inputs. I flew taildraggers as a student pilot back in 1965 and did two of my required x-countries in a Cessna 140. My instructor hammered the rudder usage into me until it was automatic. The one problem I did have at first, which was corrected with further instruction, was bouncing. Not only does the mass behind the main gear want to make you turn, it also pushes the tail down if you touch down too hard. In other words, instead of making a 3-pointer, I was making a sloppy wheel landing.

[@josephleblanc965]

I just turned 70, I'm craving flying my own cub. I might have to stop watching these awesome videos. I had my chance and did not get my license when I was younger. It would be fun talking classes, I'll have to look into what's available around me. I'm in Cape Breton, N.S. . Keep on keeping on. Don't lose track of the wife, she comes first!

[@Max_Janszen]

Sport pilot license seems to be your answer, I hope you get in the air!

[@davidjose9808]

Jose! (My name is David Jose)…keep up your dream. I got my PPL in a Cessna 140 that I had purchased BEFORE my very first lesson. I was 58 years young then. I have 500 hours total (in a taildragger) and exactly 1 hour in a nose wheel aircraft

[@ronmartin3755]

I love your videos. I have over 25,000 hours in the air and about 15,000 of those were in tail draggers like the Piper Cub, Luscombe Silvaire and Cessna 180 and my favorite the Stenson and other tail dragging airplanes. My father on the other hand flew more than 50,000 hours. WWII P47, various tail dragging aircraft as a civilian flight instructor and about 22,000 hours in a Luscombe Silvaire 8 F for Magnolia Oil Company of Dallas Texas. His Luscombe is hanging in the Permian Basin Museum in Midland Texas. Tail Number N2645. Neither of us ever ground looped a tail dragger. My father is gone now and at 74 my health has taken my ability to pass a flight physical but I still run outside when I hear a Round Motor Airplane fly over my house. Keep up the great videos young man and Please be Careful. My whole family watches all of your videos and we gather together to watch them when you have a new one out. And as an after thought on tail draggers the P47 had a Locking Tail Wheel and this helped the pilots of WWII to keep from ground looping. If you could make your Kit Fox tail wheel lockable it would help. Just a thought.

[@FliteTest]

Nice UMX timber;) Awesome vid Trent!

[@TrentonPalmer]

Thanks to you guys for that one!!!

[@torktastic521]

UMX Timmy... THE best umx ever made, IMO. It's Trent's fault i wanted one.... now I got the big one, too!

[@GR-rx7zq]

Hi flight test. Big fan. I'm getting my AXN ready. It's like the bixler. It's almost ready to fly. I've been a supporter for a long time. One year I'm going to go to flight fest. I'm going to have some rc videos soon ( although not as good as yours ). You inspired me to join the hobby. Thank you so much. I've had so much fun.

[@davo1173]

Go the umx timbers

[@rodneycuellar4976]

The treadmill and cart, FANTASTIC examples. Way to teach!

[@ghardi6324]

Got caught out once in the early 90s, was in my early 20s and flying a Maule M7 235 onto a narrow dirt runway on top of a hill. Long story short I relaxed for a second then tried to correct, realised what was happening too late. Undercarriage held out, thought id got away unscathed. Got out noticed front side of the left elevator had hit a small bush causing minor damage to it.

[@davidendsley2391]

Heck Trent I ground looped a Cessna 150 about 45 years ago my instructor said my right foot was too high on the pedals, I say it was my first cross wind landing instead of left rudder I over-corrected with too much right rudder. Have never spun around that fast in anything else, thank the lord for renters insurance that was an expensive mistake. Awesome video keep um coming I'm never too old ta learn something new.

[@daxdadog]

I think the light just went on for a lot of us...myself included! Now I get it. Great explanation...thank you!

[@jayski9410]

Trent, that demonstration with the little stick model on a treadmill says more than a thousand words about how important awareness of your center of gravity is. It also reminded me of stories I've heard from cargo pilots who've had pallets or containers break free and slide towards the nose or tail in flight. And while you may not have the rating, you're an instinctive instructor.

[@joeojeda9393]

As an FAA Airworthiness Inspector, these types of videos can be very informative when training new inspectors investigating incident/accidents. Thank you for putting this in terms even a non-aviator will understand. Great video, sir!

[@1roanstephen]

Back in the day when I lived in upstate NY, we had five or six months out of the year we could not ride our Harleys. We would gather on Sunday afternoons in the local Haley shop and listen to engine runs by the mechanic and tell stories. Like you, it wasn't as good as doing it, but it helped pass the time. We miss the flying but, in the mean time, videos like this are good.. Thank you.

[@thecombat1233]

I have the umx timber and the bigger one as well Love the rc hobby!!!!! PLANES THAT IS!!!!!!

[@stevenkostamo1279]

My ground loop was caused by a brakeline failure on landing. Dent in the empanage, that had to be repaired, and a broken runway marker light. The plane was fixed and flying again long befor the runway light was replaced. Dragonfly Mk4. The close call was when I was instructing a new pilot in an Avid Flyer, He had about 4 good landings in a row, and the 5th started to go around and off the runway, " I have control" full opposite rudder, brakes, cross ailerons and power happend instinctivley. I heard the control tower over the radio call the emergency service as they hit the crash button. But like Trent's story I was able to save it and was flying with a short takoff roll in the grass to avoid the runway marker sign. The next thing I hear is " Cancel Emergency service, he took off in the grass". It took a week before the owner/student was ready to try again, but try again he did and is now a pilot.

[@aaronlibersat2172]

I for one have really enjoyed the talking videos as of late, very informative, Thanks Trent

[@dayr3892]

Hi Trent, as a motorcyclist our saying is "If you ride, there are 2 kinds of motorcyclists, those who haven't crashed and those that will". I love all your videos! I'm always looking for the next one. Take care!

[@rman.7447]

Had my first (and hopefully last) groundloop today on a piper supercub in training, got away extremely lucky with no damage or anything at all. Just got absolutely terrified.

[@a1sloth1]

The treadmill and four-wheel test/demonstration model are excellent!!! Thank you.

[@kensherwin4544]

The guy I bought my Champ from suggested this exercise to get aquainted with that little wheel in back: Put a series of cones down the centerline of the runway then taxi a slolum track through them. After you can easily get through a pass or three, increase the speed and do it again. At some point, you can feel the tail want to come around similar to an oversteering car. This is the feel that you practice staying ahead of by learning the dance.

[@TrentonPalmer]

That sounds like a great technique for training in a tailwheel

[@kensherwin4544]

Not only is it a good training exercise, it's fun in its own right,,

[@theoldman8877]

When I learned to fly and land gliders my instructor told he I would need to be doing a tap dance on the rudder all the time and keep the wings level ( only one wheel ) you can't use brakes to steer when you only have one wheel. A few years later when I added a conventional landing gear rating to my power rating, it was easy for me. The big problem when a fiberglass high performance gliders ground loops it brakes the tail boom off, very expensive repairs. My home field had two shops doing composite aircraft repairs I saw several broken tail booms. Good video thanks.

[@rcbif101]

I started on Gliders, so I'm 110% rudder when I'm flying. Recently transitioned to single engine, and even the DPE said it showed. Will be getting tailwheel this spring, and hope I will remain one of "those who will groundloop" for as long as possible before it happens.

[@rolfgloor]

I also started as a glider pilot. And was flying competition glider aerobatics for some years. So using the rudders was in the blood. This might be, why I love taildraggers soooo much more than trigears.

[@RealDapperDude]

What a brilliantly simple and concise explanation for a non-flyer. And that wheeled tube on the treadmill is masterful. I'd always associated the word 'inertia' with no movement; now, I've finally looked up the definition in terms of a plane's forward motion. Mahalo.

[@RJ-jb6lf]

Excellent explanation with visuals on the treadmill and shopping cart. I just noted the guy below me said the same thing and a pilot, so I must be right. Well done!

[@steveloomis4086]

I agree with the comment below, best explanation and visuals I've seen. I am a Tricycle gear 172 pilot with very little time in a tail dragger. Just never wanted to fly one, but may try again. Thanks man.

[@madcalicojack]

You'd make a good instructor Trent. In the transition from "reactive" to "authoritative" tailwheel pilot, it's about keeping your feet moving. Incidentally, this is true for nose dragger pilots too. While the ground loop monster leaves them alone, I see students who don't track the centerline because they are slow and lazy on the pedals. So if you are a nosewheel pilot thinking of making the transition to tailwheel, you can develop good habits now by staying light and quick on your pedals to always be over and parallel to centerline.

[@danjones7876]

should mention using the throttle to recover. counterintuitive but lotsa power blasts the tail back behind you.

[@shannonwhitaker9630]

Hmm not according to this guy... m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5qtlqicodyda8k HaaHaa !

[@jannepeltonen2036]

Agree with the point about nosewheel pilots having to pay attention, too. Especially if the plane has a freely castering nose wheel. I had gotten used to the Cessnas being easy to steer on takeoff, and then transitioned to a Diamond DV20... It took a while to figure out the amount of rudder input you need when starting the takeoff run, and how active you have to stay to keep it anywhere near the centerline :)

[@jannepeltonen2036]

...I'm glad I got it nailed before the end of the summer, because now the runway surface of the local airport is mostly just shiny ice :) Brakes? What brakes? Don't use the brakes! If there's a patch under one wheel that actually *does* have some friction, you'll end up in the snow bank on the side of the runway! The runway is long enough that you can just let the plane run out of momentum and then taxi off. Carefully.

[@BrightBlueJim]

If you're flying a nose dragger, you're going the wrong way.

[@lurking0death]

Superb illustrations and explanation of exactly what a ground loop is. Very well done.

[@goatflieg]

Every tailwheel pilot has heard the "have/will" axiom, and it's understandable. But when discussing it with Budd Davisson, he said that he's never groundlooped... in almost half a century of flying over 140 aircraft models (including warbirds) and many decades of instructing in the Pitts Special. That tells me that it the tailwheel monster can be kept at bay indefinitely... one landing or taxi at a time. Every one counts.

[@munroeje]

I heard Budd say this at his Oshkosh forum last July. Impressive! If he can pull that off training students in a Pitts and flying Warbirds, the rest of us should be able to as well.

[@AkPacerPilot]

I was gonna say, my dad has over 25K hours with every bit of half of that in tailwheels and has never had a ground loop.

[@rc300xs]

Agreed

[@southjerseysound7340]

I agree to a point, the problem is there are sometimes things that are out of a pilots control. For example I almost lost it in my Maule because of a low tire. Now before someone quips how I should've found it during my preflight etc it happened after pulling the floats. We pulled the floats, changed the gear etc and took a test flight. Had it been in the tire prior to taking off for the 2.5-3 hour flight home we'd have seen it, either during the install or prior to my friend signing off of doing the swap. Believe me, it can happen to anybody. I'm a AG pilot and I've been flying since 11-12 years old and 95% of it has been in tail draggers. It was worse than trying to land with half a hopper in a bumpy fields with a crosswind, luckily it was my home field so when she came around I just went with it and the only damage was to our pumpkin patch.

[@hotrodray9884]

"Had it have been in the tire prior to taking off".... those air nails are sneaky. 👍Lol. I landed with an ice frozen left wheel onto asphalt. C180.. made it ok... Taught me to not get the brake hot taxiing in snow. You MUST be "on your toes" every second and ahead of the airplane. You cannot be asleep.

[@herbertsaylor8912]

Treadmill demonstration made it clear that the tailwheel is inherently unstable. With no input it's still all over the place. That's what I'll be trying to accomplish from now on, staying just ahead of those occilations. Excellent job explaining and demonstrating these concepts.

[@scooby1961]

Absolutely love the treadmill demonstration! Brilliant!

[@y_equals_mx_plus_c]

Same, I think it should be shown like this at flight schools!

[@maisenroush2227]

Perfect demonstration on the Umx timber. I always group loop on my timber because my Rutter is messed up

[@DomAviationChannel]

In my glider training we have discussed the ground loop as a measure of last resort to stop the glider :-)

[@RickSoaring]

I had to perform a groud loop once to come to a stop in time. In a scenario like the one you described. it was a short field, slightly downhill with high trees on final. I side-slipped over the trees, put the plane down asap and braked as hard as possible. The harvested crop field was pretty hard, I hoped it was softer but unfortunately the plane did not slow down as fast as I hoped it would. So the only option I had was to ground loop; tail of the ground and forcing the right wing into the ground. That did the trick. Otherwise it would have been a barbed wire and a ditch. Only five meters left. Worst landing decision I ever made. In hindsight I would have landed with tailwind. Luckily no significant damage, only the tailskid came off. And I had to remove the wheel to clean of the dirt that became stuck between the tire and the rim. Had it fixed the same evening.

[@divelizard1966]

@@RickSoaring You walked away so good landing airplanes can be mended easier than pilots. I did a similar thing myself after an engine out into too small a field.

[@DomAviationChannel]

@@RickSoaring Thx for sharing!

[@rcbif101]

Have seen it once as my field. Luckily at the point of wingtip touchdown, the glider was going a walking pace. Still bumped a tree and cracked the nosecone though. Easy fix on the Blanik.

[@christinpolen7994]

Yikes, my glider instructors taught me the international ground loop as last resort. Then again no going around,

[@bernardanderson3758]

Trent I’ve been flying Tailwheel Aircraft for years ago and I’m finally back in the Tailwheel again and got recurrent again with my CFI and I’m so excited in the 170 . I’ve flown for the first time a PA Piper Cruiser PA-12 and the Maule and of course my favorite the powerful 180 . My instructor said to look at the very end of the runway and always nevertheless don’t get distracted by anything to keep directional controls and heels on the floor and just talking to your self saying hold it off hold if off with a three point landing and back pressure with your feet alive with no braking until you stop flying

[@robinj.9329]

I know old timers, pilots with many thousands of hours in tail wheel aircraft, that have never had a ground loop! BUT, these same pilots will never touch certain models of aircraft! For a safe tail wheel aircraft, you need excellent brakes and plenty of rudder! A wide, stout main gear and very strong tail-wheel. With all that going for you, IF THE PILOT DOES HIS JOB, your not going to ground loop!

[@steinrich56]

Brilliant demo..........now I understand...!!!!......that treadmill setup made so much sense.

[@beachboardfan9544]

Looking forward to, "My first ground loop", video. 😄

[@aleksandrnestrato]

My grandpa was an aviation mechanic during WWII. He fixed more than 1000 airplanes. He knew about ground loops, but he barely saw one. Though all the planes were taildraggers at that time. And airstrips were muddy offroad fields. At any second either wheel could get stuck in a dirt puddle while the other one would roll on with little resistance. Later, in 1950s-1960s, when jet planes and tricycle gear took over he saw many ground loops. They started to occur frequently. Even later in 1970s and on when tricycle gear became a standard ground loops happened to be rare again.

[@americanredneck357]

The Ground Loop Monster claimed another victim today. A moment of silence for PZL-104 Wilga N123T "Draco".

[@oldnepalihippie]

That was a great plane. At least no one was hurt - but for a broken finger nail.

[@edp2260]

Not exactly. Mike himself stated that he made the mistake of taking off in conditions beyond the limits of the aircraft and the pilot, i.e. crosswinds of 35 knots+. It was really the 'get there monster' that caused the pilot to make a bad decision.

[@Bartonovich52]

Yep. The accident happened before he even left the ground. A nose wheel airplane would have ground looped in those conditions.

[@erictaylor5462]

That wasn't the ground loop monster. That was the stupid pilot monster.

[@feetgoaroundfullflapsC]

@@erictaylor5462 -- Overconfidence attitude.. "Hey guys, Im going to do an Impossible Take Off". Look!!.. Oops!! we are crasshing instead!!! Sorry!!!

[@RenegadeADV]

I few my first plane at the age of 8 in 1989, have been obsessed with flying ever since. This is the single best explanation of ground looping I have ever seen.

[@JohnChvatalGSTV]

I have had the opportunity to go flying pretty regularly with my friend Don in his red Taylorcraft. As time has progressed, I’ve experienced things like taxiing, takeoffs, a bit of cross country, and a few touch and goes on the ice. I can definitely tell I’m still a bit reactionary with rudder inputs on takeoff but I’m getting pretty good at telling the airplane where to go when taxiing. I hope to start flight training in the Taylorcraft in the spring...

[@nicknorby6493]

I loved the makeshift vehicle on the treadmill, incredible visual to see how massive the change is!

[@MUuulerOriginal]

Haha love the creativity at the beginning :D

[@lavernedofelmier6496]

I got my private certificate in 1973 and accumulated about 350 hrs tt, put a few hours in a Luscombe 8E luckily never looped or got confidence in landings, you can’t play a piano with two left feet. Always enjoy going along for the ride with you and all your flying buddies. Stay safe!!

[@SteFly]

I have also ground looped twice with a glider. Both times at a outlanding, but that´s totally different to powered plane :D

[@WyllSurfAir]

In your Libelle? How did you avoid breaking the tail boom?

[@SteFly]

@@WyllSurfAir One at the JWGC in Lithuania with my Std. Libelle and one with a DG300. Both times the tail was not on the ground when the glider was rotating.

[@justincouch6964]

@@WyllSurfAir It's very circumstantial. T tails are more inclined to break than cruciform (big weight up the top of a long axis of the fin). Crops, furrows, speed, cross winds, how much the wing digs in and more all contribute to whether the backend departs.

[@artd.]

Well done Trent. As a Pilot who learned in a tail wheel type a long time ago, it brought back memory's of my own learning curve. Very good information and well explained. And remember "Never hit your shadow"

[@timrodriguez1]

I love how you used your UMX Timber as an instructional model...lol 😂👍

[@AeroCraftAviation]

Yeah that was great!

[@Relfy75]

Excellent vid Trent. Never stop learning or talking about the craft.

[@AkPacerPilot]

Dance dance dance.... that’s the best way I can explain it. Any rudder input followed by a quick opposite jab. :-)

[@BrightBlueJim]

How does this help?

[@AkPacerPilot]

If you noticed his tailwheel prop, how even with a straight wheel it begins to wobble left then right bigger each time. Your constantly countering that unwanted movement. Dancing on the rudders, plane goes left, enter a right rudder immediately followed by slightly less left. Keeps it straight. The worst thing you can do is not have your feet moving. Especially if your in a short coupled tailwheel like a pacer, a Pitts, etc. The most dangerous portion is when your moving but don’t have rudder authority. Requires bigger inputs. As airspeed increases, it will be a series of very rapid small inputs. These rapid inputs help keep that cg on the center line and keep it from getting out of hand. If you watch someone landing a short wheel base (short coupled) tailwheel, you will see that rudder wagging back and forth constantly. Some airplanes will let you get away with more, like a Cessna 170, the longer the easier, assuming nothing is broke or unequal braking. Like the Cessna 195 (a very stable tailwheel), in the video, they lost it because likely a brake issue or failing to enter right rudder when applying power (p factor). Needless to say, quick little movements keeps it straight, it’s a dance, hence dancing on the rudder... :-)

[@facastronovo]

@@AkPacerPilot I only ground looped once in my Aeronca L3. Right after my tailwheel touched the runway, I began dancing on the pedals, as usual. At that moment, the spring connecting the cable to one side of my steerable tailwheel chose to separate from the steering horn, thus giving one pedal more authority to turn than the other. Before I realized what had happened, my dance on the pedals sent me into the loop. Murphy, it seems, always awaits. No damage to my airplane, but as luck would have it, I had my wife in the back seat, and I don't think she ever felt comfortable flying with me again 😢

[@AkPacerPilot]

Frank Castronovo that’s a bummer, but at least plane was ultimately okay. Mechanical causes ground loop, might not be anything you can do about that other than catching it on a preflight, but even that can mis what you had.

[@tinlizzie37]

Hi Trent, Enjoy your videos of your Kit Fox, always wanted to build one, but got too old! The first tail dragger I learned to fly, was a Boeing Stearman. I was taught to fly it 'til I was stopped, and parked. I have never ground looped any tail dragger since. I've seen seasoned pilots and also vets, ground loop, because of falling asleep, lazy rudder, or head locked up "you know where". Thanks for your vids, they are entertaining at times! Bob

[@billykittner7128]

oh the days in the Champ with my father smacking me in head with the sectional yelling "use your feet!" The Cub was so much tamer :)

[@UncleWiggy252]

papa loved you!

[@billykittner7128]

that was tough love, at least it was before ipads !!@@UncleWiggy252

[@mr.mcbeavy1443]

My btother and I owned a Champ. I nearly ground looped it once, and my Dad's Citabria.

[@tomleonard5277]

Thank you! I have no problem with you continuing videos like this. I have just over 100 T/W landings. People wonder why I continue to try to get out once a week just to do a few landings, this will help them understand.

[@Stoffe3D]

Great video! And what a coincidence! I made my first ground loop just 3 days ago when I was training crosswind landings in a Cub. The airfield I fly from was very icy, so the wheels didn’t grip. And the plane just turned on me when i had landed. I’m also very new to fly tail wheel planes. I think it turned just cause the field was so icy, I probably should have used more rudder also, luckily nothing happened to the plane. But it was scary for sure. And I learned from it the hard way I guess. 😊 I guess when flying from icy airfield that you have to be extremely cautious, so if any have som tips for that I would be very happy. 😊

[@hotrodray9884]

Fly em ALL tiedown to tiedown. Learn to use control input in cross wind taxiing... learn to control every airplane without the "brake crutch". JMO. 2,000 Tailwheel.. no loop

[@snaproll94e]

Great demo! And you're spot on about transitioning from being reactive to anticipating the plane's actions and being able to make the plane go where you want it to go, when you want it to. A very satisfying accomplishment, once you get there. Practice, practice, practice......in less than ideal conditions.

[@alm3333]

I equate landing a tailwheel aircraft to backing up a trailer at 55 miles an hour.

[@SpicyTrifongo]

There's a good King of the Hill episode about that.

[@julianbrelsford]

I have never reversed a trailer as that speed. I've also, I'm quite certain, never reversed a car at that speed. Cars are pretty controllable at 25mph in reverse. Not that interested in trying anything beyond that

[@paddyboy1959]

That was a great example with your little model. Good job. Thanks that helped a lot.

[@thomasabramson100]

I almost ground looped in my first flying lesson wasn't concentrating on the right rudder my instructor had to take over QUICK

[@scottfitzgerald5423]

One of the best descriptions of the mechanics of a ground loop and why they continue to potentiate as loss of control continues. Stop apologizing, your vids are still good man!

[@davedennis6042]

You don't scare me. I still want a Kitfox LOL. In all flying there is going to be mishaps and close calls anyway. Might as well have fun anyway and just learn from he hard knocks.

[@cdreid9999]

Look into avids too if the money is an issue. Theyre what the kitfox is based on. I bought one to learn in.. about half the price of a used midrange kitfox and there are multiple versions from STOL to speedwing (about 15mph faster but higher stall) to Magnums that have insane weight capacity

[@scotty2307]

I used to fly with an old pilot who had both Tricycle, and tail wheel aircraft, including a Harvard T-6. He taught me to start tapping the pedals as soon as you throttle up on the runway. This is tailwheel only, obviously. He feels that this constantly induced wobble puts the aircraft in a known state.This way, you are not waiting to react to the airplane. As the airspeed increases, and the rudder starts to become effective, you switch from tapping the pedals, to a slower, longer push to left and right. As a passenger, it was definitely noticeable, but not uncomfortably so. We once landed in his Aeronca Champ, and the tailwheel springs let go when the tailwheel touched the runway. He saved the landing with brakes, but things could have gone badly.

[@nathanpalacios3024]

*If you have the time and hes doing good enough you should go down and make another video on nikks recovery*

[@andrewwatson9805]

Best explanation I've heard. You took it right down to basics. Never flown a tailwheel before, but I remember my dad saying that you fly a taildragger until it stops.

[@DangerIndustries]

Trent you HAVE TO stop complaining about your own videos 😂 Just keep making them

[@K1lostream]

Danger Industries - Word. I don't know who'd be expecting Trent to go flying in winter in a Kitfox which, as far as I can tell, is made of a clothes horse with a flag wrapped round it! Trent - indoor videos are fine in winter, and you made a good investment of time in demonstrating with your little trolley thing and the treadmill - I'm sure there's now tons of your viewers have a good concept of ground loop, that wouldn't have got the same insight from just a technical description.

[@adm2204]

Came here to say this; these are really great videos. I enjoyed the last one about drones, and as an aspiring pilot who's being encouraged to learn tailwheel *first*, this is great, relevant content for me. Keep it up, Trent!

[@abbieamavi]

honestly I agree but making videos I just feel guilty when I can't upload a flying video all the time. But in reality, I'm a student and cant fly everyday. And Trent is wintering it out, he'll be delivering soon :)

[@matthewpiper4328]

@@K1lostream I'm fairly sure winter isn't the reason he is not flying, if i recall, there was a problem with a part of the kitfox that has been recalled and needs to be replaced before he can fly it again.

[@pappybo49]

adm2204 if you have the opportunity to learn in a tail stagger 1st please do so. It will make a more conscious pilot. You will never regret that decision.

[@stereosleepsounds7651]

What a fantastic way to explain it! I've heard about ground loops many times (not a pilot, just interested) but have never seen it explained to clearly and simply and the treadmill experiment was a perfect explanation!

[@jazzukes]

I love the fact that you used the EFlight UMX Timber from Horizon Hobby. My favorite RC plane.... when is HH going to make the Trent Palmer signature Kit Fox UMX plane????? Woo hoo! My aviation experience has only been with tail wheels (all RC that is).

[@ExperimentalAircraftChannel]

Excellent explanation @Trent Palmer Thanks for creating this.

Just convinced me to keep my tri gear ! 😓

[@50-ish40]

Genius examples and demonstration. I particularly like the treadmill! Thanks so much

[@julianodamasceno]

Brasil 🇧🇷!💪👍

[@eriksmithwick641]

Amazingly simplistic visual comparisons. Wish it was explained to me like that back in the day

[@jasoncarter7971]

Can you please trademark the camera smack thing so other people stop doing it?

[@gerritdykgraaf2570]

Jason Carter Trent has it down to a science!! If someone could Trademark it, he would!!! Makes to a very nice ending to his Vlogs!! 🖐

[@goatflieg]

LOL I had thought the same thing, and even discussed it with another of my favorite (and very popular) Vloggers. I was told Trent wasn't the first guy to do it; it's been around a while, and now it's gaining popularity... so the horse is kinda out of the barn.

[@jasoncarter7971]

@@goatflieg In that case, I propose that if Trent is looking for future non flying video topics, he do a documentary on the origin of the camera smack. Where did it come from? Who accidentally dropped a camera on their face to get the whole thing started? etc.

[@BirdyinBOI]

I think Tucker Gott was ahead of Trent on this one.

[@goatflieg]

Gotta admit, I used it on my latest music video "I Don't Need This"... but that was because the very last thing I didn't need was the camera.

[@airgliderz]

Where glider/sailplane training helps pilots because of adverse yaw is strong due to long wing lever action and lots of slow flight just above stall in tight turns while thermaling in rough air for hours. Keeping the plane flying straight using a highly accurate slip indicator, a simple peice of string attached/taped to the windscreen.

[@bofustjohnson]

In motorcycling we tell newbies, if you ride, you're going to go down. Of course they all say, not me. I'll be careful. I took the riders safety course. The truth is it's the nature of the beast. Thank you for sharing the truth of flying....things are going to happen. One must be keenly tuned in every time you go up. Your videos are excellent...thank you.

[@j.vincenttaylor8916]

Gread vid as usual trent, i recently converted to a tail dragger. All my pilot buddies told me i was crazy and beware of the ground loop. An instructor once told me, “dont be afraid of the monster under your bed” meaning dont create a monster where there isnt one. I have since learned “the dance” or that punch and jab you mentioned and have become a much better and proficient pilot leaving my buddies far behind with my new skill set. And if you want to play off airport and open up a whole new world, its the only way to go. Thanks again for the great content and inspiration. V

[@slam854]

That was an educational video that took a lot of thinking on your part, both material and presentation. I hope your friends are giving you air time to keep your skills up. Had the good fortune to spend an hour in the air in a Pitts S2-c. That plane comes in FAST! Pilot gave me the stick for about 3 minutes, did 3 fast rolls left and right and a 180 turn. Always came out wings level. Flying out of Heber Valley Airport. Owner Brad knows Mike, Mark and Cory. Best wishes to get a proper fix so Freedom Fox gets back in the air. Thanks, Rotax, for the important service bulletin.

[@sirglider]

Experienced a ground loop with a pilot friend in command. Was with a strong crosswind on a Maule MX-7 (touchy plane). The solution to avoid the plane to turn into the wind with not enough control to hold it on the line is to keep some throttle on. Some traction force from the front will keep it straight.

[@johnbolin7098]

Perfect example demonstrated on the treadmill. Having only flown C172's, I am always amazed when watching a taildragger's rudder wag upon landing.

[@Cowracer67]

That treadmill demonstration is very similar to the ones showing how a mis-loaded trailer (Not enough tongue weight) behave. As an avid RVer, I have known this, but I never really knew the physics. Thanks for putting it so simply.

[@TrentonPalmer]

Yeah, that video is what inspired me to test it with a landing gear simulation

[@Cowracer67]

@@TrentonPalmer I've posted a link to it on my RV forum. Knowing what will happen is good, Knowing WHY is better. Maybe your demonstration will help another guy understand the 'why'.