How To Identify Record Pressings... (Understanding Deadwax/ Runout Codes on Vinyl Records)

In this video, I give info on how to understand those codes and matrix numbers in the deadwax/ runout of vinyl records. I also talk about different pressing labels, record club releases, record plants, and more. This will help you catalog your records in Discogs.

[@bab1627]

This will be your most popular video in the long run. Great stuff. We need a part 2 ASAP.

[@williamdenton5716]

I have a ton and a half of experience with run out information and Discogs. You, Sir, did a fabulous job of helping to simplify the convoluted codes, symbols, and variations associated with this extremely useful, and sometimes insanely difficult to see, information !! Congratulations, and thank you. Being self taught as I am, it's assuring to have so many of my assumptions and deductions confirmed.

[@scruffydog900]

Excellent breakdown of runout codes/deadwax codes etc! I would like to toss in some further info on promotional LPs (and cutouts, aka bargain bin LPs). I worked for the Record Bar chain in the 70s & 80s, and had close friends who were radio station Program Directors and also label sales reps. As you noted, WLP - White Label Promos were pressed & distributed before the album drop date (which used to be Tuesdays!). We received these as in store promos and bribes...er...gifts. They were distributed to radio stations, reviewers and they had a...cachet of being cool & rare, and sought after. Sometimes they were white labels AND gold stamped. Sometimes records were rushed out so fast that White Labels were few and far between or nonexistent and promos were mostly gold stamped. And sometimes the promos were sawcut while still in the shipping box for local promotions. There was also lots of variation between labels. Some labels had very organized promo departments who distributed WLPs and other labels were lucky to manage to sawcut a promo. And there was a whole sub-economy of LPs that were called "cleans", which were used for various nefarious transactions (wink wink). These were later sold under the table to the local independent record store for walking around money. And then there is a whole other genre of "promo only/demo only" records which were distributed as small rewards ("swag") to members of the music community. I was lucky to have a friend who would ship me "DJ shipments" which contained every relevant new release for that week. All of which was just part of record promotion during the 70's and very early 80's. Lots of freebies during that period, before the bean counters took over. I believe the "middle of the country" record plants were there to keep shipping costs down. Have a plant on each coast and one in the middle, and you keep your shipping costs to a minimum. Those cases of 50-60 LPs each weighed a LOT! My store would get around 30-60 cases direct shipped from the pressing plants and another 20 from our local warehouse each Tuesday. Cutouts? Generally only very poorly selling records that did not meet the sales minimums expected made it into the cutout bin. Not many of the sought after records would ever be found there. Thanks again for filling in some gaps in my knowledge!

[@BobbyLeeCarroll]

Great info. Thanks for sharing .....

[@shanereynolds5380]

This is fantastic. I had pieced bits and pieces of this together, but thanks for sharing your expertise. It really gives us a fuller picture. This is what the internet is for😊.

[@marktubeie07]

10:43 Wow, there is a best sounding K-Tel pressing!! 😂😂😂😂 I lost it when I heard that, what a great line!!

[@mnoe1973]

Great info for new or even older collectors. Knowing what you have and how to find it is very important

[@jazzpill2523]

Robert!!!! You the man!!!! Learn so much from you and Tim the University of Vinyl, you two are the best.....!!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@mike_burke]

Essential viewing, many thanks Robert. I cannot imagine the time and effort that went into researching and producing this. Cheers!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! It was really years of collecting.

[@scottrap]

Robert, thanks for the tip about Monarch pressings on Atlantic. Good to know! I grew up in Los Angeles and just checked most of my Led Zeppelin albums. They’re all MO👍🏻

[@RobertFithen]

They're very hard to find in the Midwest, especially Led Zeppelin.

[@eamonntracey]

Filter by Album, then Vinyl, then US, open 14 tabs, check label images then check the matrix with the last couple of remaining tabs. You just described the way I catalog my own collection. So at least one other person does the same thing I do. Yay!

[@nickclarkson7343]

Watched the video earlier - how to make nearly 40 minutes go by in a flash. Really interesting - presented as always with flair and a good amount of humour.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@gonzaljevic]

Great episode. Very complete even with a beach boys low blow as usual.

[@RobertFithen]

I couldn't resist. lol

[@iZ-the-Egoni]

Low blow? Robert Fithen is one guy who's *not* sucking brian wilson off

[@danielcombs3207]

I took a picture with my phone enlarged it and I was able to read the info on the runout.

[@007KrausBean]

Excellent video with great info. I remember back in 2017 when I joined Discogs and was trying to locate one of my pressings with no luck so I tried to add more details (my details) to one of the pressings that was like 98% a match and was literally wrecked by like 2 or 3 people that must have deemed themselves the record collector elite that was just pissed off at everything. Rather than help me understand and educate me they pretty much talked AT me with complete rudeness. After that point I reached out to Discogs for help and they agreed those guys were in the wrong but did nothing about it. So, I told them that I would never again try to contribute to the community ever again because I did not feel welcomed. This video is the most information about the codes that I have ever found. TY so much for posting it.

[@RobertFithen]

I don't contribute that much either. Same reason. Much of the time those people are wrong, anyway.

[@007KrausBean]

@@RobertFithen Well they certainly own it like they are the gatekeepers for being so wrong. I only use Discogs to log my albums and that is it.

[@mickontherock1]

That was a fascinating video thank you. Even though most of it wasn’t relevant to me in the U.K. it was still a lot of interesting information and well presented. A lot of video makers could learn a lot from watching you Robert. Thank you again from Mick in the U.K.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! I'm still learning more about pressings from the U.K.

[@johnfronczek2658]

This is interesting. I was aware of the different labels throughout the eras. But, I wasn’t aware of the special pressing plant codes. I just looked at my MCA “Beverly Hills Cop” soundtrack album. Thank you, Robert.

[@BillsBoxOfSound]

I knew a lot of this stuff but learned some new things as well! Always appreciate your humor as well. Jazz folks have a whole other bunch of stuff to remember with their deadwax. Blue Note, Prestige, Etc. There's plenty of other videos out there for that, but this video is great for rock and pop folks!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! Blue Note has the changing building address on labels too.

[@StanR56]

good information..............thanks,, gotta watch again.................

[@tdunph4250]

A video that was definitely essential for me personally. Lots of useful info for everyone in the VC. Thanks as usual Robert!👍

[@alejofar]

This has been super helpful man. Thanks! I've been selling records on Discogs for a few months now and just baffled by the differences in pressings and how to identify them.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks! Glad I could help.

[@retromusings]

Really informative, educational and entertaining. Anyone who enjoys vinyl or thinking about collecting should watch this video. Appreciate it's a lot of work editing and producing this video with all those labels featured. Thank you.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks! I'm glad you recognized the extra work that went into it.

[@bigstar33thriftymusiccolle7]

Great info. Goldmine Jazz Album guide does an excellent job of breaking down the various record companies and labels. On discogs thread had a section on deadwax markings to help understand which record plant records were pressed at.

[@stpworld]

@@RobertFithen What do you do if the vinyls don't have a barcode Ive got 1st print beatles LPS with no bar code and they have a purple label instead of black. I think theres no star either.

[@RobertFithen]

@@stpworld The purple label ones are from 1978. If you don't see an indicator in the deadwax, it's probably Jacksonville. Those are the hardest to see because they're so small.

[@stpworld]

@@RobertFithen are these harder to come by i will check on this when i get down to my records does my white album come with a poster im not sure about the first print ones i have all 3 colors to and ive got some disney with no barcodes to

[@NickP333]

Fantastic vid, Robert. I usually go by the label picture in Discogs (if available), then narrow it down with the deadwax, as you mentioned. Thank you

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! That's best to do with certain labels that have different text styles or changes with eras.

[@jeffthevideoguy23]

That second to last Motown label was funky

[@user-bf6xo3bi5e]

Your video came at just the right time as I've jumped in the deep end cataloging my hundreds and hundreds of records. So grateful for the nuggets of info. I will definitely return to watch it again and again.

[@robinfowler9477]

yes, helpful. as i have browsed thru Discogs i noted that Terra Haute, Santa Maria, Pittman are, apparently good pressings. so i always look for these. a lot of fun finding old LP that got destroyed in my youth

[@thevinylvault]

Really enjoying your videos! The Vinyl Vault watching from across the pond.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@Saturday_Records_On_Discogs]

Thank you! Great info, will be a vc classic for years to come.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@pgh45rpms]

Great subject, Robert. I thought I was the only nerd who paid attention to what was etched/stamped in the dead wax. When you brought up Sterling, I immediately thought of several others -- e.g., Audio Matrix, Nashville Matrix, Frankfort/Wayne, and Bell Sound. I own two 45's, both from 1968, that are first pressings. (1) "A Question of Temperature" by the Balloon Farm on Laurie 3405. The first pressing that I own has the misspelling "Tempature;" they corrected the error on later pressing. (2) THe Doors' hit title in full "Hello I Love You Won't You Tell Me Your Name" is the first printing. Elektra 45635. Title was later shortened to "Hello I Love You."

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! I will probably do a follow-up where I mentioned those other companies.

[@marciap-vc]

Thanks Robert, this video will make searches on Discogs much less rage inducing 🤬 for me. I've not cataloged my collection because I'm never positive of what I've got, middle aged vision doesn't help but at least you've provided a great reference point.

[@RobertFithen]

It's to the point where I can't even read the number on the label without a magnifying glass, so definitely not the etchings in the runout.

[@charleswirtz2458]

Great video with loads of very good information. Thanks.

[@AndyG11774]

Hey Robert, this was super helpful! I kept pausing and jotting things down, then rewinding a few seconds....so it took me over an hour to watch this! LOL...thanks!

[@RobertFithen]

There was a lot of info. I might even do a second part at some point.

[@AndyG11774]

@@RobertFithen if you do a 2nd video on the topic, I’ll definitely watch it. This is great info!

[@fiatluxrob]

The way you organized this is super helpful. I use matrix info all the time but somehow hadn't thought much about how certain things are unique to certain companies. Thanks for a great video!

[@mikecallas8673]

Thank you for your great video Robert more great things I did not know that are very interesting, informative and fascinating

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@edwardgonczy3170]

Absolutely superb! Much valuable information. "Is it 6 O'clock yet" - Eagles Hotel California. Meaning, it's Ok to start getting high.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@bigstar33thriftymusiccolle7]

Great info video. I have been looking at the stamped serial numbers. Goldmine Jazz album book is a great resource to help identify records and discogs had a thread with several deadwax codes to help identify records.

[@popfanatic1]

Awesome! Fantastic and very informative video! Thanks Robert!

[@twofromthetrunk9932]

This video was great. Helped me a great deal. I’m glad you did it.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@markhdubs5243]

Robert u need to come over and put all my albums into discogs. 😁 U really know your stuff.

[@chestermiller1768]

im 57,never paid attn to dead wax.Still dont much,but very interesting show.I knew bout labels

[@henricusinstitoris2325]

Fantastic video!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@enriquegarcia4965]

Thanks Roberto, very informative

[@djvinylvertigo]

Great, informative video. Thanks!

[@audioeeze8396]

Lot's of interesting and educational content. Thank you and keep doing what your doing Sir!

[@jasonarsenault3791]

Damn this is perfect Robert. Thanks for doing this!

[@davidellis5141]

Thank You for the insight & education to help us find best 👌 value. ✅️

[@hansenmarek]

Awesomeness👌you should put that in a book🤘what a knowledge

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@cronejawford978]

Great episode as usual. 😀I have a copy of "Let It Be" with 'Phil loves Ronnie' in the deadwax.

[@patfrat666]

Nice job, man. The effort is appreciated.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@vynyly]

Great stuff, Robert! I need to make a pdf of this info to carry around on my phone. lol

[@dimebagdave77]

This was very fun and interesting, Manythnx

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@LeatherNWestern]

Excellent info. I found it a great help. Many thanks!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks! Glad I could help

[@DetroitStars]

Very informative -- I learned a lot of new facts. Early in my record collecting days, I would etch my name into the dead wax. I hated seeing writing on a label or outer jacket, so that was my way of identifying that I was the owner. Someday in the future, some antique record collector is going to come across one of them and wonder what's going on here.

[@RobertFithen]

Someone will list it in Discogs as a rare (your name here) pressing worth big money. lol

[@JLGeese]

Very informative…well done!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@chriscorman734]

Class in session and Dr. Fithen your assigned professor Thank you for this wonderful educational video, and I hope in watching and listening, we pass the audition

[@therealbushboy6440]

Wow thank you for this.. it was long but fun

[@brunohebert1351]

Thanks Robert! Very useful information. I too like to track where my records come from The other issue with Discogs is that all the database has been created by users so there are duplicates, errors or incomplete listings. It's great to have such a wealth of information but people need to understand that what is in Discogs is not entirely 100% accurate. I have a few records like that, that the deadwax doesn't completely match a pressing or another, so I usually pick the listing that match the most. But boy, sometimes it can be a tedious process (especially when there's still 200 listings after filtering) Plus I'm the kind of guy that is trying to add the record to my discogs collection while listening to it so yeah no looking at the deadwax until at least end of side 1 (it's easier when it's a double LP hehe) For more recent records, barcodes helps tremendously but yet again not always as sometimes labels reuse the barcode for different pressings (ie color variants but those are quite obvious to sport, right) Sometimes, the field in the database is not correctly filled so entering or scanning the barcode (on the app) shows no results yet when you search and find the listing you'll see the barcode field correctly filled. Don't know if it's a glitch or if there's a specific field to be set with the barcode information that I don't see. It's seldom but it happens sometimes. Can't wait for a part 2 (with a little jab to Aja ;-) maybe)

[@RobertFithen]

Users on Discogs definitely make errors. The discussion on the character next to the "T" for Terre Haute was an example. Also, people upload pressings with zero information, sometimes just a front cover photo and that's all. It's somewhat annoying.

[@staggerlee6794]

Great vid!! (As usual) I was always nerdy about the dead wax when I was a teenager - but not for any specific reason - just enjoyed reading what was printed there because as you say in your vid, there were often weird and whacky messages written there. Of course, now I know that this is another way of identifying the pressing and presser. Going to invest in one of those magnifying glasses with a light on now.

[@mikehoward1888]

I am trying to correct my info on discogs. Thanks for the help 😮

[@RobertFithen]

Glad I can help

[@joshd2597]

If you’re correcting your Beatles records in Discogs then you’ll be in my prayers

[@SteveSmith-qy4ty]

This is great man!!! Thank you as it is interesting!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@mick5137]

An "I am" inside a pyramid? Esoteric alert!

[@jroc2427]

Great job!!🤩✌️

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@jamesshort8385]

Informative video Robert. Some of this I knew, some I didn't. This is a subject that could be dull as dishwater in the wrong hands, but your conversational no bs style, made it fun. One thing I'd like to add is the best Warner Brothers pressings I have heard are from Artisan. Their logo is a drum head and sticks. I think they were a California plant. I have heard several Black Sabbath Paranoid pressings and Artisans are by far the best A video I'll save and refer back to. Thanks!

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! I will be sure to mention Artisan in the follow-up.

[@cathyhorn963]

Great episode. However! (A bit of facetiousness here…) Re: Your Beach Boy digs. I have everything they ever did…including solo efforts. True, some of their stuff hasn’t aged too well… …but I can always hear at least “something” in the production & mix that never fails to pull me in. Their more…um…less-well-known albums also contain gems. Don’t know how many fans of the group that still go to their concerts even know that. Also…the deep cuts. Gems. But to each his own… Ce la vie… That’s the way the cookie crumbles. Carry on.

[@Les3201]

Thanks for the informative synopsis. I think you condensed 3 to 5 hours of searching and reading in the Hoffman forums into a 30 minute video !. It would have been fun to hear you explain the “artisian symbol”….which is pretty much a guarantee of a great sounding album…especially when it is a clean Grateful Dead album……...and then there is “Van Gelder/RVG”. The Winchester plant symbol you discussed….(a long line with an elongated triangle on the end) is supposedly a rifle symbol….which helps me remember it (I.e “Winchester rifle”…..)…. Thanks for an informative video ..

[@chaky1978]

Extremely helpful! Thank you New subscriber

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!

[@jackde1965]

Nice video👍

[@jobeonetwothree2126]

My God, you have the most knowledgeable site on KZbin. You make it so easy for a simpleton like me to understand. I'm thinking you should start an ask Robert channel. While I have your eyes here, do you think you would ever have the time to do a video for how to set-up a Discogs account? I tried yesterday and when it came to how much you should charge for shipping to like places like Crimea, or Afghanistan I got completly lost. Also how long does it take after you have submitted everything for your account to be activated. See I've already asked the first questions to the ask Robert channel. P.S. Maybe one day you might do a video about some of these other channels out threre (for example) "The Rub It In Your Face Channel" that's the one where the guy comes on, with the blaring music and says (in a hillbilly voice) "I jes boughted this here rekird for 25 cents at a yar sale and it goes fer 2 million dollars on that there e-bay, I'm gonna turn round and sell it fer 5 million"

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! I don't know about an Ask Robert channel, since I can't answer the first question. lol I've never sold anything on Discogs. Yet.

[@jackdenny3637]

IAM is the Machinists Union. Actually it’s IAMAW. International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. Former member

[@richardblayneamerican8149]

Great segment, Robert; you covered a lot more than dead wax! I mistakenly thought that any album with a sliced off corner or cut mark through it was a 'bargain bin' special; thanks for clearing that up. Also, I own 'The Doors Greatest Hits' from Columbia House, a 1980 pressing. I always thought it sounded amazing until I heard a friend's genuine 1st pressing. You're right-The Columbia House album does sound 'bright' by comparison. Okay...time to dust off the magnifying glass and check out some dead wax. Thanks.

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!!

[@JWD1992]

I cracked up when you described your process of narrowing down submissions on Discogs because I do the same damn thing. Do you also rapidly switch between tabs to try to see what make two label variations different when it isn't obvious? I feel like Discogs helped make pressing plants much more known among record collectors. Before that it was mostly Beatles fans knowing the Capitol plants and their different label text layouts. Also how the most desirable RL Zep II was the Monarch. I think Presswell Zep albums sound great, too (maybe Peter Grant would also surprise them). I don't blame you for forgetting the Columbia Pitman plant since the damn "P" stamp is always so faint! I need one of those microscopes you showed to find those.

[@chrisnairn8129]

The one thing I've wondered for years was the AC/DC album Flick of the Switch. There is a diamond that is right next to one of the song titles on the back of the album. I've never seen it again on any other reissue or the CD version

[@RobertFithen]

I looked at a lot of the pressings on discogs and don't see it on any of those. Which pressing is it?

[@chrisnairn8129]

I am not sure. I bought it the day of its release. August something 1983 in Phoenix AZ

[@davidfeinauer8793]

Great stuff thanks.

[@ICenobyte1962]

Thanks man! I knew about Atco/Atlantic and Polygram and MCA Decca Stuff but, the others I did not.

[@raysutton488]

Very helpful thanks

[@AsItShouldBePodcast]

Today, after watching this video last night, I encountered a Robert Ludwig Led Zeppelin II out in the wild. It was in pretty rough condition and was priced at $175. Somebody scrawled "RL" in Sharpie right on the front cover. A bit of a head-scratcher as they obviously realized what they had yet still had no qualms about devaluing it further by writing on it. I should've taken it over to the listening station to check it out!

[@RobertFithen]

Speaking of scrawling, I've heard stories about copies where someone had taken an Exacto knife or something and tried to etch RL into the deadwax themselves. lol

[@AsItShouldBePodcast]

@@RobertFithen For fucks sake...

[@petertaysum5563]

Hi Robert, thanks for the clear guide there. From mid 80s to early 90s helped run a second hand record shop in the UK. We used to spruce up our inventory with new US cut-outs and notched records and CDs, so was interested to hear your thoughts on Promotional Records. We bought records from radio DJs and later from Rave/House DJs, many of which were promo (gold) stamped on the sleeve - ie PROMOTIONAL RECORD - NOT FOR RESALE , and rarely stamped on the round record label. So DJs and marketing teams were not supposed to sell on, but who's looking? As I understood the situation then, the US cut-outs/notched goods were so marked that they could not return into the mainstream (US) market (similar to REMAINDERED in the book market). Rumour was that labels stuck with a glut of a poor seller would sometimes mark records as Promotional to pose as forbidden fruit so to speak, and again some distributors of cut-outs would forge promo stamps onto the sleeves, to entice purchase. In buying cut-outs, UK and European independent record shops could bypass paying full price from the major labels and stock a good range of Jazz, Country and Rock at roughly half price. I wish I had been able to keep the white label collection of early Rave/Reggae/Jungle/House 12" singles, bought from working club DJs. Reading the deadwax was essential in trying to identify the artists or labels, whether independent or major labels. Major labels would often promote one of their big artists with remixes by several DJs to try to sneak their talent into an independent scene that scorned such material. Such a sketchy scene, rife with stories of producers doing "homework" in the majors' studios and pressing plants, and the deadwax was full of cryptic messaging.

[@19Gardens]

Thanks, I'm going into this completely clueless

[@floydstoner2962]

Excellent and informative video. Have you ever considered a video on the various Warner Bros "Loss Leader" albums?

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! I only have one of those, but several of my albums have that inner sleeve advertising them. I used to see those albums everywhere, but don't really see them much anymore.

[@floydstoner2962]

@@RobertFithen I believe there were approximately 35?. A late-friend of mine left me his collection; I believe there's only a couple missing. Quite a journey to listen to each as well as read the liner notes. Ended up making a CD of my favorites...

[@Judy_P]

WHERE was this video when I was trying to figure this out? Now you need to do one on CDs...that's a whole separate rabbit hole. And, yes, Monarch pressings were very common here in California when I was buying used vinyl (mainly 70s thru 90s). I'm just returning from a 25+ year "break" where I didn't buy many vinyl or cds, didn't even have a turntable set up. Luckily I didn't get rid of anything.

[@RobertFithen]

That's not "luckily", that was just smart.

[@Judy_P]

@@RobertFithen With a bit of a hoarding issue thrown in. The smart part was more my ability to pick nice, clean albums Jackets not always in the best shape, but I'm amazed how good most of these albums sound.

[@billyatkinson8920]

I just found out last night that I have a Monarch press Robert Ludwig version of Zeppelin II. And I'm in Wisconsin. 😂

[@robbiedetroitstigermanviny8883]

Great Stuff, Now I don't need My Man Love's help anymore.

[@chopayrussell9660]

Thank you Robert, I have been waiting for just such a video. Often wondered about the myriad of symbols in the dead wax, have been collecting records for forty five plus years and finally having mysteries solved. Gonna keep this video around for awhile , take notes. P.S., I have a couple albums with "Bell Sound " script stamped in the DW , any knowledge on that ??

[@RobertFithen]

Bell Sound was a pressing company (among other audio things) that started in the 60's. Usually a sign of high quality.

[@Onteo1]

Great info as usual people seem to be into this recently, something that no one thought twice bout before. Unless of course it was a new Joe Walsh / Eagles release looking for his latest nugget of wisdom. I’ve got several RCA club records that actually have translucent Japanese vinyl. Is there a website with this information? Thank you for doing this !

[@RobertFithen]

There are websites that each have a few mentions of secret messages in deadwax, but I haven't seen one that has a huge list.

[@CBCDs]

thanks!

[@stevenimeson902]

I love your videos, curious have you done a video on the Best Buy series of records?

[@RobertFithen]

On RCA? I only have a few of those.

[@stevenimeson902]

@@RobertFithen yes 😊

[@jackdenny3637]

Sawcut or notched LP covers did not mean it was a promo record. It meant it was a nonreturnable record. Some companies ink stamped the back cover NR also for the same meaning. The record companies cleared inventory stock from their warehouses by selling this excess stock to regional mass market discounters for pennies; who then sold these albums to their customers for say 97 cents. That is why you find stickers on old LPs that show cheap prices like that. 94 or 97 cents commonly. Regular retail price was usually 3 to 4 dollars MSRP. So what does that matter? Well the record companies allowed retailers to return unsold sealed copies for credit to their account. But not the Nonreturnable copies as they were distributed at the cheap price to the discounters. Otherwise those mass market discounters retailers would return them for full credit. A sawcut LP was an obvious tell to reject a credit/return request. Not an indication of a promotional record. And yes actual promotional records were nonreturnable as well but were normally marked as such. promo records could be colored “wax” copies or have a different colored label or just WLP copies also. Many had “promotional copy” stamped or or even “for your consideration” marked on the label usually with promotional contact name for the distributor.

[@RobertFithen]

The word "promo" could mean different things. The non-returnable overstock (like the solo Kiss records I mentioned) were also called "promotional" because a discount bin was sometimes referred to as promotion (like a sales promotion), not "promo" as in demonstration. These were also sometimes referred to as after-market promotional, but as I said in the video, were not truly promotional records the way most people think of them.

[@myleftthumb2294]

@ 0:50 - The Winchester symbol represents a rifle. The plant was just down the road from me.

[@GRAYSON-vj8qw]

Thanks for discussing promo pressings (with white label vs after market versions) I always felt the were pressed better and sounded better than most standard pressings - which makes sense because the labels were making them to impress people enough to buy the record. Just from my limited experience - what do you think? I hope you do more videos like this!

[@RobertFithen]

That's what I've thought, too. They pressed them knowing that there was a chance thousands would hear that pressing via the radio.

[@funtobuild9968]

Great video, thanks. I have many original pressings, but in many cases can’t figure out they’re a true first press using Discogs. Any thoughts how to dig deeper?

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! The only way to do it on a more mass level, is figuring out first year pressings. Identifying actual true first pressings is more of a case by case basis.

[@zoltanszabo4242]

Great introduction video to Discogs! (George Piros is pronounced "pirosh". Piros is Hungarian for Red, common surname here.) There should be more like this video out there, because I think most users can't keep up with the database becoming more and more detailed. I know that sellers can't. Moe than half of the stuff I get from Discogs is not the exact same version as it was listed as. The ones I hate adding to my collection are US pressings of the really-really popular ones. Beatles is probably the worst, but the hit records from Pink Floyd comes in close. You really can't narrow it down enough and in the end - after going through 100 release pages you realize that it's not in the database, because the combination of that cover design version (talking about very small differences here, like a stamped print company ID number), the label variation, the pressing company, the cutting engineer signatures. Oh, and also the teamwork of multiple plants (plating at one plan, pressing at another) of same company creates all sorts of easily mistaken combinations on their own. So you end up adding a sixhundredandsomethingith version of Sgt. Peppers or Dark Side. But first you need to check again. True story. Oh and in the meantime you find a bunch of pages with contradicting data on them, so you can spend some hours researching where the error came from, addressing users and correcting... What I hate at narrowing down the master release is that if you check in multiple formats it acts as OR instead of AND. For example if you check in LP and Stereo it will list all the LPs (even mono) and all the Stereo releases (even CDs, cassettes).

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks and thanks for the info on George Piros pronunciation. I just updated my copy of "Dark Side of the Moon" because my actual pressing is finally in Discogs and four years ago it wasn't. Another thing about the stereo/ mono listings is that someone just can't type in "Stereo" and get all of the stereo pressings because sometimes the stereo/ mono option isn't included in the listing.

[@cgcvinyl]

Thanks for The Beatles / Capitol deadwax symbols! I have many pressings and had no clue about each pressing plant marking. Very helpful! Do you know, is there an actual book that's shows ALL the labels deadwax markings? It'd be alot better for me that relying on the internet. Great informative video Robert! Thank you! ✌

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks! Some times Capitol would farm out Beatles pressings to other plants like RCA because there was such a demand. Another way to identify Capitok pressings is sometimes there's a small number in the lower right corner of the back cover, assuming someone didn't switch the record and cover at some point.

[@cgcvinyl]

@@RobertFithen Cool. So, were all the US Apple Records releases pressed by those same Capitol pressing plants pretty much? I'd like to pick up one of those magnifying glass with lights built in. My vision is so bad, that'd really help out.

[@RobertFithen]

@cgcvinyl yes, basically Capitol with a different label.

[@garycooper340]

Very useful and helpful information !! I would love to know your opinion of import pressings, such as Japanese or German? Also, what you think of purchasing LPs from international sellers? Thank you! Gary

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! I don't have that much experience with Japanese pressings, but the ones I've heard are very clear, but lack a certain amount of bass and sound somewhat heavy on mid-range, very up-front. I've had nothing, but excellent experience with German pressings, especially Beatles albums pressed in the early 70's, as well as English and German groups. I've always had great dealings with sellers from Germany and Sweden, but now the shipping rates have gone up tremendously.

[@garycooper340]

@@RobertFithen thank you! I do find the audio quality to be better than the US pressings

[@happyhippythevinylguy]

Such a great video thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I have a question on led Zeppelin 4 what happens if it says pecko duck is that an original or what's up with that one if you don't mind letting me know thank you.

[@RobertFithen]

The Porky/ Pecko cut is highly regarded as one of the best sounding ones, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a first pressing. That inscription can be found on later pressings, too.

[@happyhippythevinylguy]

​@@RobertFithen thank you

[@JJM3rd]

I’m originally from Indianapolis, and my grandparents all lived there. I don’t know if this has anything to do with it or it’s just coincidence, but my grandmother worked for RCA in Indianapolis. I’m assuming RCA had a big presence in Indianapolis. I found my copy of Led Zeppelin II with the RL runouts for $5.99. Is it in perfect shape? No, I graded it VG. But I still got it for a hell of a lot cheaper than most go for regardless of condition!

[@harrysmusicroom]

Good information, so which pressing plant do you recommend for Pet Sounds?

[@RobertFithen]

Funny you should ask. I've always heard it was the Brother version that was originally paired with Carl & The Passions and then later released separately with a brown cover. I bet you didn't expect a real answer. lol

[@harrysmusicroom]

@@RobertFithen 🤣😂😆

[@jamesshort8385]

Yes, that's the one. It's better than the Analog Production issue.

[@ediblehorse]

Thanks so much for this vid Robert. I am currently cataloging my collection. It's quite a task. Question. Why does the printing/stamping in the dead wax not make noise thru the speakers and destroy our styli?

[@RobertFithen]

Because it's not in a groove, it's where the stylus doesn't travel.

[@PrankZabba]

Some of those Columbia House albums are the only way to get them on vinyl. Kinda like how they cornered the leftover market for 8 Tracks. Not sure if they were all the same, but the 2 i had was see through brown vinyl. But I have a question, somewhat related to this. As someone who was in the radio industry. How often have you seen the albums that say FOR RADIO USE ONLY on them. Now, is it really true that these were hotter cuttings, so that it would compensate for the compression on the audio signal going out. In what is probably the first stage of the loudness war. And were all labels the same for this case. I got some white labels from A&M that are so loud that i cant even record them digitally. Banapple Gas by Cat Stevens and Somebody Super Like You from the Phantom Of The Paradise soundtrack are good examples. The mono was just as loud as the stereo. Even 1 notch above absolute silence just slams the VU meter into the red. Now maybe it was just A&M doing this, as the other promo 45s i have aren't like this at all. 70s promos were at least white labels (will use Warner for example) where all the 80s promos were just stock copies with a small hole and Promo Only written around that. Which later get drilled out for the large hole. Sometimes A Porky Prime Cut is easy to pick out before you even look for that info. Recently scored a Holiday In Cambodia 12" and i knew George cut it before i even pulled the entire record out. My guess is that he is probably gonna be the only one who took advantage of the space. Another great example of this is The Cramps 12" for The Crusher. The entire 90 seconds pressed over the entire side of the album. Unlike some other ones i have seen that would use the first inch of the record, and the rest was all just run out groove. The only thing I can see that may top this is that really strange Les Paul 45 that is actually the last second of a song that the radio demaded he finish. Never seen one in person, and the photos online (like the others mentioned) just dont do it justice. So im picturing this Les Paul record to have maybe 5 or 6 seconds of play time on that side. Which makes me wonder now if this was the first thoughts into doing the concentric circles after seeing how much blank was still left on the record.

[@Jamko1970]

T.M.L. In the deadwax would be mastered by Doug Sax, since that is his company (The Mastering Lab).

[@RobertFithen]

I thought he had employees, too, that would master some things.

[@Jamko1970]

I think he had an assistant but Doug did all the mastering from what I have read. A small independent mastering lab that his brother built. Everything was an all tube set-up.

[@vinyljoe1940]

Roberto. Any chance we can get a video of your table and gear you're running?

[@RobertFithen]

Sometime. I have a Rega P3 with an Ortofon bronze cartridge.

[@vinyljoe1940]

@@RobertFithen Nice! I have a Technics MK7, Ortofon Bronze as well. Ifi phono 2, Cambridge Audio AXA100 Martin Logan speakers.

[@marklloyd7159]

Hay rob how r u brother u r a ledgend my friend your knowledge always amazes me as u no most of my collection is h c punk and kiss LoL i always like this little message on dead wax witch i think is usually done by band member? Also do u know what discoges mean by sand filled when describing the vinyl enjoyed this one peter Grant ripped them off and what could they do but go with the Roady must of done it and im pretty sure that eas all dealt in house he had every one of them scared or drugged to his advantage a true pommy gangster for sure wow went of trak there sorry peace and love lloydy

[@marklloyd7159]

Ps U always help me out more than U will ever no I did watch to end it's great therapy LoL peace and love lloydy

[@RobertFithen]

Thanks!! He ripped them off, but kept the quality high. lol "Sand filled" is a type of color variant that makes it appear like the record has sand under the grooves. It isn't really sand, though. It can have a metallic flake look.

[@marklloyd7159]

@@RobertFithen he sure did I still throw on phisical graffiti in the light is a classic and yes he kept quality led Zeppelin in there hay day had very little merchandise of course that changed in early eighties when they were put in heavy metal bracket (wtf) and of course you can get nearly as much as kiss but his style of management definitely set Zep apart take care Rob peace and love lloydy