How to Instantly Improve Your Writing | Filtering 101

[@TylerNOS386277]

"A smile appeared on her face, as she grasped the trophy in her hands." - Where else do smiles appear; and what other body parts 'grasp'? - "She smiled as she grasped the trophy."

[@thetruth45678]

"A smile appeared on her cat, as she grasped the trophy in her teeth." :D hehehe

[@daisyhinojosa23]

thedrew4you lol

[@nachoijp]

@@thetruth45678 That made me realiza that it makes sense to use filter words to describe weird things. If you don't use them, then when you do to explain something unusual (like grasping things with your teeth), it makes the description pop that much. It could be a very useful tool for fantastic scenes

[@08ChrisV]

Does this general rule also apply to third person omniscient?

[@DOSRetroGamer]

I am a big fan of cutting unneeded words.

[@LilyMeadeBooks]

I think the hardest thing about this tip is remembering to check for it! I've heard this advice at least a dozen times and yet every time I see it I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's a great tip! I completely forgot about it!"

[@ShaelinWrites]

You were in my example lol so now you'll never forget

[@daina3628]

Lily Meade If you use an editing app like ProWritingAid or the Hemingway app you won't have to remember ;). The app will tell you every time you used a filter word. It's also useful for repetitions. Imagine manually searching for every instance of the word 'it', and 'that', and 'then', and 'just', and 'only'... It'll also tell you if you're using too many adverbs, along with a lot of ought things.

[@indigoimouto3703]

lol that's me with everything

[@valerie1954]

@@daina3628 Thank you. I'll try using one of those apps.

[@ArtemHahauz-nm7bk]

Just start implementing it! I believe you'll remember it this way! Remember "If you don't use it, you lose it".

[@JennaStreety]

FINALLY! You described filtering in a way that makes sense unlike literally everyone else whose ever given this advice! T.T HALLELUJAH!

[@claremoloney985]

1:07 I thought that was actually good writing. Thats how bad at writing I am.

[@aimi-838]

Same omg hahaha

[@DOSRetroGamer]

Are you serious? Three of the sentence start with 'she' FFS

[@sanityone649]

That's how bad most people are writing. Have you read some of the stuff on Amazon's KDP. Ugh! No one knows their craft...haven't taken time and yet...books, books, books. I've tried to read some of the more popular eBook Sci-fy writers...and they're filled with passive, overwritten, minutia filled dialog and narratives that take the reader out of the story. I don't see how anyone can get through them. It's my guess that the reader, in an effort to find better writing in their eBooks, searches further back in the book, giving the writer page counts, before finally discarding the author's work. Ugh.

[@mimilils9335]

Pretty much same 😂

[@claremoloney985]

@@DOSRetroGamer what's wrong with that?

[@MandiLynnWrites]

I've actually never heard of filter words before! This is awesome, great video!

[@mightymouse5930]

“Said is dead” I keep hearing this. It makes me really appreciate my English teachers never teaching it to me.

[@Avatarfan10000]

I feel like you should filter out words that are starting the normal or obvious.Like you said with the bowl. "The bowl felt smooth in my hand" Should be changed to "The bowl felt smooth" because it's not subverting anyone's expectations. However if I wrote "the bowl felt smooth on my face" then you would not use a filter because it't not something people normally do.

[@xisalways-ls8lt]

Wait. Normally people don’t feel bowls with their face?

[@michaelballack3051]

@@xisalways-ls8lt No every normal human being feel bowls in their armpit

[@2009sdaughter]

You wouldn’t say “feel.” Feel is a filter word in it of itself. You would say “The bowl was smooth on my face.”

[@lexuhbee]

I never realized I did this! This is an insanely helpful tip, and I can't wait to implement it. My biggest problem is pacing, and I have a feeling this is going to help me so much.

[@destiinytuionuku5161]

Me after watching this; “Oh my god, I’ve been living a lie all along.”

[@sethrakes1991]

2:22 Here's my take on the whole paragraph (for context): Rain pounded against the concrete and soaked Lily's clothes. A janky blue pickup rumbled past her in the downpour, windshield wipers wildly a-flicking. She coughed from the exhaust and hugged herself for some semblance of warmth. The street was flooding. NOTES -"Truck" is implied in "pickup" -I made the truck "janky" so that her coughing from the exhaust is more visible and credible. -"Pattering" and "beaded" are not strong enough verbs if it's flood-worthy rain. -I took the liberty to rearrange some things, use Deep POV, remove some telling, add some showing, etc.

[@sandrakicklighter2735]

I like switching from generic truck to less generic pickup. I don't get the second alteration. the exhaust bothering her is credible and since she is the subject not an outside observer, not sure why being more visible is better than Lily's physical reaction.

[@TheProgKeyboardist]

This is, without exaggeration, the best tip I ever received. I don't want to become a professional writer, but writing is a significant part of my work. I've been trying to improve clarity and flow for a long time, but without much success. I write decent sentences, but they don't work well together. Thanks to your video, I know what to work on and I can already see a difference.

[@paulapoetry]

I did know this already, but it's one of those things that I still get wrong in first drafts, and have to look for when I edit. It really does make a huge difference to the quality of our writing, when we can eliminate nearly all filtering.

[@littlestories7916]

As someone who is also studying writer at university I found this so helpful, thank you so much! We have never been taught this and it makes so much sense! It's definitely something that I'm going to put into practise, I love your writing videos and I hope to one day read some of your writing, a lot of your stories sounds really good :)

[@nachoijp]

As an editor it's mind blowing how so many authors resist changes to filter words, they insist that it's "their style"...

[@DDD11239]

It was for Tolkien, Milton, Beckford, Lovecraft, etc. Writing to market is never a positive nature of creation. Read more books.

[@aal3xa]

You are my favourite author, even though I haven't read any of your books. Because of you I've learned so many things that have made my writing much better. (I'm only 13 and I still have a long way to go) I'm glad I found your channel. P.S I hope you get your books published because they sound awesome! - Alexa

[@ShaelinWrites]

Aww thank you

[@rileylohman724]

You're 16 now? How have you been doing now?

[@DDD11239]

​@@rileylohman724 She probably spent her teenaged years engaging in pointless drama with boyfriends or peers.

[@NixFaerie]

THIS IS IT! I've been trying to figure out what changed in the writing between the first and second half of my story for months and I couldn't even pinpoint it but this was it! They feel closer in the first half and the wording feels so much smoother.

[@kalissahood7050]

You are so helpful. In the two videos I've seen so far you've addressed glaring problems with my writing that I wasn't sure how to describe, much less fix. Thank you.

[@irispilzer5918]

I love this. My writing always felt kind of off, and now I know why. Thank you so much!

[@Saiorcha]

This is something I know logically, but I always forget how to apply to my writing, and I'm definitely bookmarking this video for the editing stage!

[@abbiepancakeeater52]

i always think its crazy how much just defiltering and decluttering your writing helps prose. even if the prose isn't particularly good, it gets SO much better once you do these simple things.

[@shannonmarie9441]

the excitement I feel when I see you've uploaded a new video is unreal 😂

[@joshbryant6366]

probably silly to comment bc this vid is so old but thank you so much for these, you’re my fav author tuber bc in putting all these to practice i’m seeing my writing improve drastically! just today i wrote that my character saw something instead of just stating what it was he saw, wow! when i become world renowned i’ll be sure to thank u in my acceptance speech for my ... book , award ???? ❤️❤️🙏🙏

[@JohnLuarca]

This is an invaluable advice. The piece that I am writing is in second person POV and this video made me more aware of my tendencies to use filter words. So thank you.

[@jasminehuynh941]

Wow. I don't get the point of why someone would dislike this. If you already know about this technique, then move on. Thanks for the advice Shaelin!

[@1roentgen]

really solid advice. could there ever be cases where it would make sense to use filter words on purpose, for stylistic reasons? for example, if the character were especially aware of that particular sensation, or if you want to draw the ‘camera’ away, and create a more dreamy, out-of-body ‘feel’ to the narration?

[@ShaelinWrites]

Absolutely, you can totally use filters on purpose if that's the effect you want! Since filters create distance between the reader/character and the image, if for whatever reason you want to create distance there, like in the examples you gave, then it's a great way to do that.

[@zipgow]

Definitely agree, but there are a few I don't always filter, such as believe, know, and wonder. Sometimes, they serve as an invisible pause or characteristic perception of the scene.

[@Mercy16TheElf]

This video is so helpful to me because I have the issue of overusing "was", "that", and some other words you pointed out. I've had trouble with these words for the last couple years especially, and I try to keep my eye out for when I start using them way too much. Thank you so much for this video.

[@cenedra20]

I've heard this tip before, and I try to follow it, but now I feel I understand it better, and it will be much easier to implement. Thanks!

[@marvinkoyo8849]

This is so amazing! I never thought of removing words like “saw”, “heard” and so on while using the third POV.

[@emmiem3]

I can't believe I've never seen this before. I mean, I kind of have, but in different, more complicated ways. If that makes sense. This was sooo easy to understand. Thank you!

[@nightlove3574]

I'm usually pretty good at cutting unnecessary words, but I can't always get them all. This video gave me an idea. Now I want to run these filter words through my writing application's "find search" so that I can assess their usefulness in each occurrence.

[@feirceraven1249]

I've been purposefully defiltering my writing after watching this(adding more tautologies after finishing). Is very fun.

[@leahgodson2319]

Thank you so much for sharing this. Such a valuable tip; wow! Remove filter words to: - make your prose read smoother - enhance punch of images - tighten your point of view - remove telling - fix monotonous sentence rhythm by cutting the subject verb construction at the start of sentences. Instead of directly showing an image or a thought first, show the experience of the character. Remove redundant filter words. It applies to both sensory and mental experience, in first and third person. Phrases of thought and realisation Examples: • to see, to hear, to think, to touch • to wonder, to realise • to watch, to look, to seem, to feel or feel like, can • to decide, sound or sound like, notice, noted • to experience, assume, believe, could, decide • • to look, notice, realise, seem, sound, think, watch, wonder

[@icyangel13]

I'm unsure about this writing advice because I do think that adding filter words changes the meaning slightly...we use filter words in conversation as well, for example beginning by saying "I think that...or I feel that...or I realised that..." and I don't think these words are redundant, we say them because they convey a flavour of subjectivity to our statements. It's obvious that if we are speaking, it is our own thoughts we are talking about, but the level of subjectivity of the thought can vary. I can also think "water boils at 100 degrees" but I would never preface it by saying "I think that" unless I was unsure of the objective truth of the statement (that subjective shade again). But if I am just stating facts then I wouldn't preface it with a "filter" word. Same with words like "seem". Adding that word does change the meaning of a sentence.

[@SirMysticRob]

A time I have used one I feel is required: "He looked down and his body was glowing." Because the protagonist cannot see himself, there was need for a way to show the reader through his eyes. I think if the observation requires a character to experience something as if they are looking in on themselves, that is when to use a filter word. Not always, but in this case I think if I keep it as I originally wrote it: "His body and eyes were glowing". How would he be aware? He cannot see himself. Am I to assume a reader would assume he looked down? I don't think I would have thought that. (I also don't think I would care, personally, because the info is what is important to me in that case, but that removes POV consistency...or does it?) Opinions anyone? Anyone else have other instances?

[@SirMysticRob]

Akin to "he saw his reflection" or "in the mirror, he saw his wrinkles"

[@affadoodletigressjointacco932]

I agree you need the 'He looked down.' Furthermore, with the fact that his eyes are glowing - if that's a concept you're introducing, it should be clear to the reader. Perhaps he catches sight of a reflection or another character tells him.

[@affadoodletigressjointacco932]

Oh wow I just realised that was 2 years ago. How's your story going?

[@valerie1954]

I actually stood up, looked down and saw my body to prove that you can see your own body.

[@ss-kw1kk]

super helpful video! also, you’re sooo naturally pretty!!!

[@vy5287]

This is amazing. I always suspected it, trying to remove redundancies intuitively. But you gave it a name - "filtering", and somehow it began to make sense. Thanks!

[@ArtofWEZ]

The last example I def agree is bad, but today I learned I love reading a lot of writing heavy on filter words on certain occasions. I find it helps my mind pause and soak in each detail.

[@Lisa_Flowers]

A lot of people in my creative writing class do this. I always correct it during critiques but i've never known the word for it. I should just link them to this video now, because let's be honest, you explain it much better than I do lol. Nice to have a writing advice video again :) Also this is random af but you are lowkey my friendship crush haha

[@bradinfinity6404]

I have published my first book back in September 2016, and I made mistakes such as the ones you are talking about. Of course as a writer you grow with every book you write, and your advice in this video is truly helping me realize my mistakes. Thank you for this advice : )

[@cannonfodder-xh7ew]

I'm more of an artist than a writer but I really want to improve my writing, this video is by far he most helpful one out there. Thank you very much!

[@animelovergirl8461]

Is that Xie Lian on your profile picture?

[@cannonfodder-xh7ew]

@@animelovergirl8461 AHH YES IT IS!! FELLOW TGCFER!!

[@animelovergirl8461]

@@cannonfodder-xh7ew AAAHHHHH! LOL.

[@DebbieLukasDesigns]

This has come up for me at a crucial stage in my editing, as a first timer, I've realised how our of date my writing skills are. Thank you so much!!

[@sarcosmic6982]

Huh, I don't think I've heard of the term for this before, but the subject has occurred to me before. Thanks for this, it's great advice! It would have been nice to include the list of filter words on-screen and/or had full subtitles, though.

[@Sol-pc1jb]

This is great advice! Though I find it a lot harder to cut those filters when writing in the first person...

[@gyanvarsha999]

You have some great tips in your bag of tricks, and I think it's time to binge watch your channel.

[@gbl006]

I've been trying to write for years, probably much longer than I remember. I never felt satisfied with anything and while I wrote meaningful things for me, so intimate I'll never let anyone read them. Yet it never actually was something I was willing to read after the first couple of lines. I hated everything I wrote but now I'm watching every single one of your videos and I see so much progress. This one might be the most important one yet so I came back to write this. It's to thank you yes but also because I needed to say how thankful I am for these. I also started writing in English because of your videos and even that is better. Thanks to you I can spend hours writing short stories in both languages and don't feel depressed because of my lack of talent (and in multiple languages). Thank you.

[@durona]

Fantastic explanation! I learned about filtering from my copy editor, and it's saved my writing!

[@MewSakura12]

This is such good advice! I remember reading an article about 'thought' words by Chuck Palahniuk a while ago, but your video reminded me of how redundant these words are.

[@kiisen4068]

This is a very helpful explanation of filtering! I'm curious as to how you'd go about cutting filters in, say, a description of a magic system or something else that's more foreign or new. In the magic case, I think you'd have to keep a lot of filters, at least in the beginning, so the reader doesn't get the wrong impression of how the magic works. I like having integrated magic systems in my stories, but I have trouble describing how they work in a way that's not repetitive or too vague. I often find myself using the same words when there's something magical happening because I can't seem to find others that have the same feel or motion(I have a very physical magic system). Thoughts?

[@FlameHawke]

Great tip! Filters are usually unnecessary until changing principal subject, i.e. from 'Bob' to 'Charlie'. Once a principal is established, filters are redundant.

[@chunkymonkey9097]

WOW I never realized just how much I needed this. Thank you!

[@writingwithchrist5026]

Thank you! I'll be on the lookout for this in my writing

[@xocoolchickxo]

Thanks to you I am going to be studying English Literature degree this coming year.I am really excited and even though I wasn't able to get into the course that I wanted at a specific university I still am happy that I will be studying something I love. Thanks for replying to my comment a couple videos back and giving me the courage to apply :)

[@kimiready]

OOOOh this is such great advice! You made it really easy to understand how the filter words take away from the reader experience. Thank you! 💛

[@OneFinalAutumn]

Wow, this makes so much sense! I need to fix a lot in my writing, lol. It's a shame they don't teach these techniques in schools.

[@oldproji]

That's good advice. Also, watch out for those redundant prepositions. And when opening a sentence, it's probably best to let the subject drive the verb/predicate. Although that isn't always possible when writing dialogue.

[@Mackenzie_neu]

I have always sort of known something was wrong with my writing but this was so clear to understand i am shocked.

[@cynthiaking5308]

I don’t know how old this is, but your hair looks nice.

[@Khkbnbkkk]

Thankyou so much, love from India I really loved your explanations , am watching your videos from past some days now ; they're helpful and finally I subscribed your channel . Please tell us something about how to write something which connects to the reader .

[@JennasWings]

Ooooo, good advice! I think I kind of knew this but not in a concise way. Great video!

[@RavenLotz]

Thank you so much for this video. I don't remember if I have gotten this advice before but if I had your video helped make it stick. This wasn't something I had been aware of that could change how my writing might be read

[@dreamalittlebook780]

Thanks for the tip, Shaelin. Lately, I've caught myself using unnecessary word like. The ine I use more often is "manage." It doesn't add anything to my prose and makes it more clunky. But I have to consciously avoid it.

[@cringemeister04]

This has nothing to do with the video that I’ve just started but you are so pretty

[@niceguysi394]

Filters appear because we're not quite sure what we want to say the first time around. This happens just as much in non-fiction writing. Unnecessary words are known as "expletives" and can be removed from sentences without changing the meaning. This is why swear words are called expletives. The trick is to write first not caring about expletives and then to go back and remove the filters. Quick tip: the word "that" is almost always an expletive.

[@whitecastlewithbooks8407]

I really like the way you construct your videos. This tip is very helpful!

[@MeganMcIntosh]

Hiiii! I’ve been watching a bunch of your videos lately since I am trying to get back into writing. Love how you talk about writing and also what you have to say! Quick question: any tips on dealing with filters in dialogue? Like “he said, she said, he asked” etc.

[@thetruth45678]

This concept... baffled me. I couldn't get my head around it. Until now. 0_0 so simple. Why didn't the people teaching me just say this instead of "... more potent if a stream-of-consciousness direct thought, sans any filter words like "felt." Or saw, heard, touched, smelled, tasted, and any variants of those actions that filter through an extra, unnecessary, and trivial lens." I was like... "What?" Thank you SO much! :D

[@chrishartman2470]

This was a great explanation of the common writing advice: condense your writing. Okay, and that means what? Try to rewrite without the filter words, is so much easier to understand. Just for fun: The blue pickup truck rumbling down the street made Lily’s sinuses burn. The rain pelted the concrete as she splashed into the flooding street.

[@guha2487]

Nice and crisp :) - without unnecessary filters

[@chesterGoatCafe]

Writers often tell taught me, " paint a picture when describing something!" Though I noticed half of the writers would take three pages just to describe looking at something or feeling something!!

[@sorsdeus]

I just began writing something today, and felt something was off. This video by happenstance told me what it was.

[@yunn1ester]

I'm only 11 but i am amateur at writing,i would love to learn more about writing! I always practice writing a story but i always think that it's not that good,thanks for the tip.

[@theshadowofgod1]

Oh goodness!! Thank you so much, never heard of this. Will definitely start, or attempt rather, implementing this.

[@alytreeps]

to apply this in writing I think you really need to be mindful of it every time

[@nauxishuweng-judassa8278]

Thanks for your videos about prose. Super useful.

[@SunriseFireberry]

Cogent concision. Pithiness. No wasted words. Editors love to hack & slash unnecessary wordiness. Why have a bloated 120K word novel when you can have a sleek, streamlined 97.5K beauty? :-) There are a few among us who can get away with, say, more description, but most aren't poetic like Hardy or a virtuoso author like Joyce.

[@ShaelinWrites]

I also like to hack and slash unnecessary words, the editor in me is kind of ruthless when it comes to line editing.

[@SunriseFireberry]

No mercy. You eliminate those excess words. Shaelin the Hack and Slasher becomes Slasher Shaelin, which sounds hockeyish & therefore Canadian. :-D Maybe you'll come up with an editorial text tool program called (something like) words-be-gone. You probably love laconic phrases for their brevity. President Coolidge's 'you lose.' Gen. McAuliffe's 'nuts'. Some ancient person's 'if'. Just think of the puns from just the word 'sense' alone (very Socratic). How many different meanings can be had from the word 'get'? What can I say re microbial antiquity 'cept 'Adam had 'em.' You probably love Minimalism in all its forms. You probably admire Hemingway's shortest short story: for sale baby shoes never worn. There's something elegant about brevity, in both math & language, & it is the soul of wit. What can I say on this matter hurriedly 'cept chop chop. :-)

[@XCydrylX361]

This is probably the best put video on this topic.

[@christopherdrost3764]

Great video, this is so helpful. Especially that you gave an example is helpful, I knew this advice before but I had trouble applying it. Now I have an idea of how to do that. Thank you for making this video. :)

[@ibrahim1x]

love it especially for newcomers to writing ,please make more of those

[@m1randa638]

If I'm feeling motivated and inspired, I don't use these words. if I'm writing because I need to write I basically use these as filler and don't realize until I try and edit.

[@bellzzzaaa]

Thank you. I love the examples you provided! Very helpful!

[@emmastapleton8150]

You're such a talented writer! God bless you! :D

[@coreyoz]

this was instantly INCREDIBLY helpful. heading into my second draft, it's really appreciated. TY!

[@lexhasgoats5106]

I've heard of this before. I think some people call it Deep POV. It immerses the reader more deeply into the character by mentioning the character less.

[@ShaelinWrites]

I've heard the term deep POV in a couple articles, but I also believe a more common term is 'free indirect narration' although that can also indicate an even voicier 3rd person.

[@lexhasgoats5106]

SENPAI NOTICED ME! Lol, but really, thanks for all your helpful videos. I've been writing for a long time, but it's only been recently that I've been taking it a little more seriously and actually learning how to make a book (and not plan out a very long, very in-depth epic series that somehow lacks plot of any sort and so get stuck in the middle and then abandon it) and your videos have been very helpful.

[@ryzikx]

Fantastic advice I always wonder why my writing didn't seem as a vivid as others

[@rachelbrock3278]

Could you give an example of how can/could is a filter word and how to fix it? I have a pretty easy time getting rid of the other filter words in my manuscript but I have can/could A LOT and I can't figure out what to do with it. Also, I've heard using rhetorical questions weakens your writing? Any tips for replacing filter words like wonder without using rhetorical questions? I love these videos by the way!

[@ShaelinWrites]

I think an example would be something like "Mike can climb trees" instead of saying "Mike climbs trees." That's definitely a trickier one, though! I think with rhetorical questions they can be fine as long as they are used sparingly. I believe the rhetorical question tip is generally for academic writing, and sometimes they are helpful in fiction but it's best not to overuse them because it makes the protagonist seem unsure of their own story, and makes them a weaker protagonist.

[@kerrywhitehouse74]

thank you so much for this awesome video. Greetings from Ireland

[@cinematwins378]

Thank you so much, you are going to bring so much help to my novels!

[@jeremiahboor]

Wow, this was surprisingly helpful. Thanks!

[@maddievstheworld2593]

I like this advice but I have also heard that "was" is a weak word to cut back on that as well and I find a lot of these kinds of plugs replace the need for "was" I'm guessing it's just a matter of what feels more flowy and just sounds better per sentence? Otherwise I feel like they're interchangeable - not necessarily weak but just overused? Is this right? I'm confused now

[@syenindiaa5888]

Thank you, Shaelin.

[@ryvyr]

For clarity, is the use of 'seem' advised against for all/most written/typed conveyance, or more specifically in endeavours of fiction and poetry and such related? In Epistemology as the grounding point, the use of declarations with certainty can make claims bolder than are substantiated. In general though, your advice and videos are vehemently appreciated!

[@JustForeverSmile]

This actually helped me get it. There are lots of tips in writing, especially show vs tell, but when I hear it and look back at a prose I wrote I feel like I did fine.Now with this technique in my mind, all the filters stick out like sore thumbs and I'm kind of freaking out

[@jmahurien4368]

Good thing I've come across this right before I was starting my final draft.

[@rhydsnow851]

This is a bloody brilliant tip, thank you so much.

[@majamaterek2159]

Just a further explanation Similes : when something is like something e.g. i ran as fast as a cheetah. You need to have as or like. Metaphores: A little harder because you have to say something IS something e.g he carresed the keys on his piano and soon became like his hands were snakes. You need to have a meaning to this For some who dont know what that metaphor in the sentense meant it means that he was hucked in and could stop i think xdd

[@hayleyhistorynerd2211]

Great teaching video Shaelin! I was vaguely aware of filter words, but I didn't know what they were called. I will definitely get rid of filter words when I find them in edits. Thank-you so much. Hayley ^_^

[@ashishyadav88]

Thanks Shaelin 😊

[@DoodlesIGuesss]

This may get lost, and you don't have to do it but it would be pretty cool. I am working on a piece of writing, and I was wondering if you could read it. I usually forget to do this, so yeah. (And I don't have tumblr..)

[@storyminded]

Bless you for this video I will definitely remember this. And I have a feeling this is what I pick up on when I read student's work they use too many unnecessary words such as this. They describe something beautiful but it is ruined by the extras ;)