How To Make Paramotors Less Expensive?

[@AnthonyVella]

This is the video the paramotor community deserves!

[@adam-newbloom]

In a world where it's all about "how much can we charge and get away with it", it's refreshing to see you trying to find ways to make this more affordable. Thanks Paul!

[@jarettcassellius6882]

You have done an outstanding job in promoting/providing the “Open PPG” vision for me. I appreciate the background on mfg aspects that you have embraced….thank you!

[@anthonyferraro]

What a great video! Full transparency and open source! The upfront honesty pays huge dividends!

[@KiwiBro8]

For those in Australia and New Zealand the shipping costs are massive and no dealers carry adequate spare parts or service kits. It's also a small sport here so nobody to turn to for technical help. Personally I'd be happy to pay the dealer mark up if they supported the product they sold.

[@jannike1015]

yes keep the harness. it is the best you can get. also throttle is awesome

[@jeffreychow8853]

Thanks for being so candid. Really appreciate your philosophy on making paramotor affordable and open. I’m exploring starting something with a similar philosophy for powered wheelchairs. Same issues with high cost, and closed, proprietary systems. Would you be open to chatting more about how you set up your business?

[@openppg]

Sure send an email in

[@linja5770]

Solid yap, keep it up

[@darianlul]

very hot topic paul...

[@slovnoj]

You are doing a good thing man. Thank you! Subscribed and looking forward to future updates

[@rule1dontgosplat]

The dealer system is the best way for several unrelated people to make money off of selling one object. Just look at cars. If the laws allowed you to drive up to the ford plant and buy a truck rolling off the assembly line, or just order one direct from the company online, cars would be way cheaper.

[@ToeJam31stPN]

Stopped in 1979

[@projectxj9454]

Nice explanation. Really well done.

[@brentarcher6336]

I love everything you are doing and your transparency. This space needs an interruption and you're helping pioneer the way. Most of your electric paramotor batteries and frames currently say "available on backorder." (congrats on the business) What are your current backorder times on batteries and electric frames? Also, maybe I'm missing it somewhere on your website, but what are the weights of the new 2.6 and 4.8 batteries? Thanks for everything you are doing.

[@openppg]

All frame parts are in stock the main thing that is not in stock it the new power pack that will be announced in about a month along with the new 2.6kwh battery. The new 2.6kwh battery is 25lbs less then the full size battery and weighs 25lbs.

[@Team.Louish]

The dropdown menu has on your website where you pick the motor, you spelled dual start wrong. You wrote duel.

[@openppg]

Thanks for the note its been updated.

[@Joe-zw9ep]

Awesome video. Is the 6061-t6 frame re-heat treated after welding in your production? Currently making the frame from your github :) And yeah, shipping is £250 I think to the UK at the moment. Also have you guys ever considered making a small trike?

[@openppg]

Yes they are but its probably not necessary in most cases and you need to have large ovens and jigs to hold them from warping in the heat. I probably wouldn't worry about it as its not going to have a huge effect overall.

[@openppg]

We are the only manufacture i know of that does this. So that should put into perspective that for most its not a concern.

[@Joe-zw9ep]

@@openppg Awesome, huge thanks for the answer. It's hard to know if I should add a few mm wall thickness to tubing without CAD of other frames or actually going to measure them.

[@bradenduke2071]

The question shouldn’t be how can we make Paramotors less expensive, but how can we make them more reliable while also increasing safety. If you make a great product thats built better and increases safety in the same price range, it’ll make the market more competitive and attractive, thus making the sport more popular.

[@openppg]

Ya there is many factors on how to make paramotors more reliable, fun, safe, and not cost prohibitive. This video is just about the cost side of things. Most all our other videos about how to make it more comfortable and saver with electric motor. But cost is most certainty a major reason many cant get into the hobby.

[@derksautoadventures5350]

Frame and tank only for ICE setup available ?

[@openppg]

Yes they can be bought by them selves. Send in and email and we will get those parts together for you.

[@michelcote]

Sailplane club here is cheap. You get to fly as much as you want for 3000 CAD per year. Free training. Flying expérience is different but you get to fly with eagles catching thermals. You should not compare cost too much. Flying experience is the important thing like you mentionned

[@NunoFlyer]

Some people when dont know nothing about paramotors they saying that are expensive. Unrealistic expectations.

[@nunyabidness9257]

Paramotor cost was a huge part of why I just put a deposit down on an ultralight helicopter. I wanted an accessible aircraft that I could transport easily and most importantly, take off from the 2.5 acre clearing on my rural property. You’ll have the better part of 20K to get into paramotoring. An all metal ultralight like an Ultracruiser is $35k ready to fly… A helicopter like the SCH-2A fits in my garage and I don’t have to wait for perfect weather to fly….. Sure, it’s twice as expensive as a paramotor but I have more than twice the opportunity to fly so it’s a win for me. But yeah, if a paramotor setup were say, $10k I would have jumped at it.

[@pjm204]

A paramotor setup is 10k 😂. You can easily get a brand new wing for under $3500 and assemble a complete/new motor for under $4000. Used can be less. 20k is nuts.

[@NomadHatch]

Yea you shopped the wrong place. Most PPG pilots spend 10-15k WITH training 😂

[@patrickmckowen2999]

👍

[@daytonaautomotive]

I love the channel! Personally, i would prefer a titanium frame because they have the ability to bend.

[@NomadHatch]

Grade 2 titanium is not structural.

[@Kent-pb2jl]

PPG prices are approaching used reliable certified aircraft prices all things considered. You have to add in the cost of the wing for these costs too. Whats a Viper XC or other light weight wing running? $4200? Then they last what 150 hours? Thats $28 an hour just for the wing. Then how long are people running their motors? Some maintenance costs for the 100 hour rebuild and yearly carb rebuilds. I paid $7500 for a Polini 130 and new wing, spare prop and cage section in 2017. That same setup today is well over $10,000 before you get into the rest of the gear and reserve. Add in my 3rd wing since then you are talking $15,000. That would buy a used aircraft like a Cessna 152 or several ultralights. PPG costs are getting out of control.

[@PDWhite]

@@Kent-pb2jl The video does talk about wing cost and is part of the total cost per hour. I think at minimum wings can get 300-400hrs of life If treated half decently. 150hrs is an understatement in my view. I think wings are no cheap but using the most expensive wing made like the viper for comparison isn't a fair comparison as It is a high end competition style wing. So something like the moxie is more a fair comparison and that cost $3200 brand new and would allow 400-500hrs of life so would be about 6-7 bucks and hr. And that is if you bought it new and there are plenty of good used wings you could get so that cost could be much lower. I don't think think reliable certified aircraft prices are approaching paramotor prices at all but if you do see a $15,000 certified aircraft that doesn't have a huge required impending maintenance bill feel free to drop a link here as I would love to buy it If real. Then I can drop another 15k on training for the license and start paying for AVgas and hanger fees on top of that. I think even the most expensive paramotor setups are lower cost then the cheapest certified aircraft by far, I don't think it's even close.

[@iKenFlyPPG]

FAR 103 is the cheap rule set, you can't win the argument.

[@Kent-pb2jl]

@@iKenFlyPPG PPG keeps getting more and more expensive.

[@iKenFlyPPG]

@Kent-pb2jl I'm a gear head and love all sorts of combustion engine toys like quads, snowmobiles, jet skis, dirt bikes, road bikes, and Paramotors. I put those all in the recreational vehicle category. I'd argue Paramotor prices are lagging behind the price increases of those other toys. Also, I have a biased perspective in that I'm my own master mechanic technician, I haven't paid someone to fix anything in a long time because I diy everything including all sorts of home repairs. I do see value in paying roofers to roof, for the most part I do everything because I've always been broke and that motivated me to figure out a way to do it mostly right or better.

[@Kent-pb2jl]

@@iKenFlyPPG Wing prices for example for generally doubled in 10 years. SXS and quads prices are through the roof but mostly for the top of the line models but they keep improving, intercooled turbos, more power, ect. Paramotors on the other hand are basically 50+ year old two stroke tech and aren't at all reliable compared to most other rec vehicles. I fly because it's awesome but look at an EFI paramotor $12,000 for a 2 stroke motor and some metal bits. Thats the same MSRP as a Honda CBR600 street bike which can be had cheaper at a dealer. Economies of scale sure but PPG's inflation is high. Look at Ozone, they slap some winglets on a wing and retail for $4700 for a wing made in not much more than a sweat shop.

[@CalebJohnsonlivingca]

Paramotors aren't that expensive. Consumers have unrealistic expectations because of how cheap commodities have become with child labor and economies of scale.

[@openppg]

Ya probably 99.9% of the cost reductions comes from economies of scale. Child labor was much more of a thing 100 or heck 1000 years ago and we didn't have the plethora and insanely low cost products we have now. For paramotor they have not really touched any economies of scale compared to most all other products we use. So I still think there is a lot that can be done.

[@Kent-pb2jl]

Except that wings ARE made in sweat shops and have absolutely massive mark ups. Some Ozone dealers are asking what $4700 for a new Viper. Thats insane.

[@NomadHatch]

@@Kent-pb2jldo a quick search on Ozone’s Vietnam manufacturing plant. It’s literally air conditioned. And by all appearances, jobs are solid and come with benefits. Maybe fact check before you mouth diarrhea.

[@nameberry220]

Cost comparison Paramotors vs GA, lacks any relevant insight. GA is cheaper per km.

[@Panda_Gibs]

Throw scheduled maintenance in there and you couldn't be more wrong. Also, it would take a very tiny plane to be more fuel efficient per km.

[@openppg]

The goal of paramotors and GA for most people is just to fly for fun and not about transport so cost per hr is what is important to them. Also I think even with the most efficient small plane the cost per mile is still going to be more costly then say an electric paramotor but again cost per mile is not the point of paramotoring or GA for most people and its more about how much fun per hr.

[@Kent-pb2jl]

@@Panda_Gibs Ya but if you include a wing's incredibly short useful life compared to a plane running costs may not be all that much higher. I'll be a lot of people are spending more on PPG than they would flying the same hours GA since they are buying multiple wings. You can share or rent a plane, you can't realistically do that with PPG.

[@philsgreenice]

​In my case, long duration flights and the time spent up there are irrelevant, but everyone has of course different expectations. Why are so many PPG pilots bent on the number of hours/miles they can fly on a single flight or how fast they can go from point A to B and back coming from the view point of a pilot who does not do Acro or pull stunts but loves cruising low an slow. How do we gauge flight quality versus duration? I value my happiness level on the fun factor. I actually made a recent flight with the original SP140 which was the first in production (Batch-1). It works today as well as when I first left the ground with it years back. Sure, the frame is all scratched but who cares about the cosmetics as long as it works as it should? The 1/2 hour battery is also the original model that came with the SP. I only had to swap the old plugs for Anderson models (easier to handle). They only cost a few dollars on Amazon. The other extra expense I made was to purchase an inverter to keep the voltage at a safe storage level if the weather turns bad for an extended period of time. I can plug a small ceramic heater or a LED lamp to it to lower the voltage (added benefice). Maintenance was never needed even flying exclusively in salty air near the ocean. Recently, my SP after fell hard on my carrying cart. Two hoop connectors and one hoop stud broke off. I grabbed an old tube J-B Weld and repaired the whole thing. Cost?... about 1/2 a buck and a couple hours worth of work! If you have a few tools in your garage, DIY jobs can easily fix any minor hardware SP140 problem. Paul's frame is not expensive to buy compared to other frames on the market and as good as any. I would say however that the new teardrop hoop is less intuitive to assemble than the old style design. The hoop sections connectors should be stronger and could be replaced by a different system. I made an easy to use reinforcement for the original hoop connectors: Cost: about $15.00 plus labor. There is no need to change wings regularly because they do not deteriorate that easily if you do not abuse them. It is not mandatory to upgrade to the lightest/smallest/fastest/latest model on the market to have a ton of fun. The gear does not make the pilot! One of my Paragliding wings lasted 7 years which I used to fly just about every week year round here and also XC in the European Alps (It was a NOVA Axon). My current Paramotoring full reflex wing is close to 5 years old and still holding well. I busted a couple lines on it over time which I replaced. Cost: $40.00 including shipping via USPS from out of State. I made a hole in the wing after it snagged a piece of barbwire on the beach while I was opening it. I stitched it, patched the hole and never had a single issue with it. Cost?... about 20 cents😃 Full reflex wings are ok, I own one, but I really do not feel any difference on the enjoyment scale flying it with the SP compared to my Paragliding wing. Full reflex gliders usually cost more than EN-A gliders. Most EN-A and EN-B work just fine in both categories. In the early days, reflex wings did not exist and we had just as much fun as we have today - inflating the wing - running - accelerating - taking off - cruising around for a while - making a landing approach - landing, and going home happy! We have a healthy PPG community here and the average pilot flight duration is 20 to 40 minutes. No need to fly with XC full reflex wing to do that. It is possible to keep the cost of an electric PPG setup relatively low. Zero maintenance and by purchasing a basic dual purpose EN-A or B also certified DGAC that will minimize the overall cost. It is worth noting that the only difference between a dual purpose EN-A or EN-B and the exact same wings certified DGAC, are the risers. The PG wings will have standard PG risers while the dual purpose PG/PPG EN/DGAC gliders will be equipped with risers with trimmers. That's all! I fly with a friend who Paramotors with an EN-B certified wing and I fly with the exact same glider equipped with PPG risers. His is not certified for PPG but mine is🤪. The manufacturers add PPG risers, changed the name from X to X-Motor and sent the wing to be tested for motorized flying😆to get the DGAC certifcation (Direction Generale de l’Aviation Civile) the French FAA entity for the certification. My friend and I flying the same gliders - same difference/no difference😄: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6LVaGeZgqiBmbM Paragliding training first. The cost will vary depending on the school program. A USHPA (Unites State Hang Gliding Paragliding Association) P2 level (Novice) can run from $1,500.00 upward toward $2,200.00 in a certified school. Then comes the Paramotoring part. Three to four days will suffice since the pilot already knows how to free-fly (Paragliding). Wing purchase - SP140 purchase - Reserve parachute purchase. When tabulating the total cost of training, gear and the money spent on electricity to recharge the battery, it is reasonable to say that Paramotoring is not as costly as one might think compared to other means of aviation including training, equipment, maintenance and electricity. Another advantage of using a dual purpose Paragliding certified EN and DGAC wing is its thermaling and/or ridge soaring abilities over full reflex gliders. Ridge soaring with a full reflex glider is like flying an ironing board. Though they do can thermal up, they were not designed to match PG wings free-flying (different activity). This is the reason why we never see full reflex gliders without the motor at Paragliding sites. I find myself increasingly using my dual purpose EN-A/DGAC glider to soar both the cliffs and cruise the shoreline. I am waiting for the day when there will be solid state batteries, lighter with good capacity and a lower cost. As far as the rest of the SP140 hardware is concerned, there is not much to improve other perhaps than the hoop connectors and return to the old frame design and come up with an easy net installation if a replacement is needed - rivets are a pain to deal with. Sorry for my long two cents reply!