How to NOT Get Scammed as a Blacksmith

[@BlackBearForge]

Learn to recognize and walk away from the customer that just wants to complain. I like your work but can you change this, I had another smith lined up but they took too long, I got a quote elsewhere but they wanted too much. All of these types of things turn into the customer that wants it done over or wants a refund.

[@jrocks1971]

Words of EXPERIENCE right there.

[@joshuadelisle]

Thank you Roy. As a blacksmith who lost his business and has now re built his business these are my tips. 1. Always work to make a proffit not just do jobs because you like the work you're not a charity. 2. Realize if you work alone only a 1/3 of your time is actually making things, the rest is business admin, design, development and workshop/equipment maintenance so that the 1/3 of time needs to pay for the other 2/3 when working out your hourly rate. 3. Always have the job agreed in righting either on a saved email or printed document so 'extras' can be calculated and charged for and not expected for free 'while your there if you don't mind blah blah....'. cheers J

[@ChristCenteredIronworks]

Very sage advice Joshua thank you for sharing brother ☺️

[@threecrosses9988]

I’ve worked in the area of Project Management/acquisitions for many years and gave done a bunch of projects on the side. You are providing true words of wisdom on this topic. I really enjoy your videos.

[@sirmalus5153]

A little off topic but please bear with me. Some years ago a retired couple (now dead for a few years...NATURAL CAUSES!!) asked me to plaster and re-furbish a small brick shed, plus fit a new sloping roof. The shed was (from memory) about 5ft square by 6ft high, with one low door and a very small window. A typical small shed for keeping coal in around here. The usual "it'll only take you a couple of days at most, it doesn't need anything fancy doing to it and it is only a small shed (small job) isn't it, so it won't cost much to do seeing as your so clever at doing things". Yeah, my heart had turned to stone already. Thing is, the shed was made of dark red engineering brick (very hard and mostly non porous, beloved of Victorian railway engineers) The shed door was rotten and it needed a new frame aswell. Plus the little window needed renewing and the roof was made from old corrugated asbestos sheeting from the 1950's (possibly the bad kind too) I looked at it and said i would go away and plan the job over a day or two. I asked a friend of mine (a very good builder who renovated houses at the time) and explained the "little job" the couple wanted done. He advised straight away to 'run screaming from it'. The plastering of engineering brick is very difficult, even for a trained plasterer of some experiance (i had never plastered anything other than the odd breeze block) due to them absorbing very little water (they behave almost like ceramic tiles) The roof would need specialist removal if it was asbestos (very possible the bad kind) and the job would be much longer than a couple of days i.e. NOT very cheap to do. I went back and told them no, i couldn't do it, especially in a couple of days and cheaply, and I explained why. Slapped arse faces all around and "we're very dissapointed with you" phrases were handed out in my direction. The shed was eventually done by a 'proper' builder, who charged a lot of money and wasn't fussy about breathing in asbestos (possibly the bad kind, he didn't check) but it took more than a couple of days. Plus it WASN'T plastered like they wanted, only painted (they had wanted it to match the plastered house originally, perfectly of course!!) The door frame remained in place (painted over) along with the little, rotten window (also painted over and looked plain bad for it) The roof was sheeted with ordinary plywood, rather than water resistant marine ply, and a roll of thin felt, which duly ripped off (it was very thin felt) in the first strong gusts of winter winds. The thing is, this couple were very good at pleading poverty to people all the time. They had a lot of "friends" who were always useful too them (until they weren't useful) and they always wanted quick, CHEAP jobs done for them, seeing as they were retired and the jobs were always "not needing much" to do them. Could I have done the job that was EVENTUALLY done on the shed? Yes of course and much better, and cheaper than the 'proffesional' builder they eventually hired. But they refused to have the bricks painted over when I suggested it, plus I might now have asbestosis for my troubles. This couple never asked me to do any other "cheap jobs" afterwards, but i never missed them as "friends" afterwards either. The above read is a little long I know, but it is all true. So beware of someone, possibly "a friend", asking for a "little" blacksmithing job to be done, with a "it won't take you long at all to do it, seeing as your clever aren't you, but we can't afford much and don't need anything fancy". Yeah right, start running.

[@yaboiranger5465]

I attended an auction for blacksmithing tools, which was great for cheap prices, sanders that were 100$ in the stores were 2$ there, and they still worked. However, enough 2-20$ purchases add up over a few hours. Every time I bid I had to not only consider the price, but if I really needed it. Once I bought something I logged it in my notebook with the details of what it was, the cost, and then added it to the running total of all the items iv bought so far, this kept me grounded and prevented me from spending more money than I otherwise would have, keeping things logged is also good if you’re worried about losing things or them getting stolen.

[@page76metalcraft19]

I guess the only thing I can add is beware the person that wants you to cut them some super good deal on the first whatever it is you're going to make them with false promises later that they're going to give you so much work in the future. They will get your item or items super cheap and you'll never hear from them again.

[@specialtrades12]

Agreed. Have them pay full price up front with potential discounts on future orders. If they arent cool with that, they weren't planning on coming back.

[@Volundur9567]

@@specialtrades12 this is how many tattoo artists work. I do give free products to local stores or friends.

[@larrystrayer8336]

Great advice, consignment sucks. I’ve been metal sculpture artist for 25 years, special orders,, 50-100% deposit, when it’s gone to be several months before I can get started I do 25% upfront then 25% when in ready to start ( if it can be easy to resell but unique items the balance before I start) I primarily work with my dealer network now, I’m paid upon delivery, I now turn down work, because it takes up my time from making my stock and known dealer sales. Very good advice. Also. Unlike contractors where materials are often a large part of the price. I often take $20. Of steel and sell it for $1,000. Price your labor and design time , labor + Suppiers + overhead + profit. Take your time to price. Shooting off the hip has gotten me so many negative payouts. I’ve honored but never again memory. Lol.

[@stevesalles6047]

well said , I am a retired carpenter and had to deal with the same as customers change orders were always great keep up the good work

[@dennyjudson2165]

Awesome tips Roy! If it isn't a cash sale of an already completed item, at least a SIGNIFICANT deposit AND a written contract carefully spelling out the parameters and what constitutes a change order is critical. If it is a bigger project than can be easily recovered in small claims court, the contract should contain a lean against the property until paid in full. If they are uncomfortable with that, they likely didn't have the money or were planning to rip you off. At that point there are two options, requiring full payment up front, or walk away.

[@MadMFox]

Thanx for the tips. I learned a couple new things. These tips work for all sorts of maker/sellers.

[@kellylynch5113]

In the trades we solve many of these problems with contracts, even a simple statement of what is agreed and a drawing can make or break getting paid. As a contractor I have been ripped off for tens of thousands in work and materials by various similar scams to these.

[@robhudson3511]

A lot of the people who will try to scam you are often quite wealthy. Usually the whole process is an ego issue, and a control issue. Beware anyone that gives off even a whiff of narcissism, competitiveness or ostentation. A lot of wealthy people are actually quite bitter......their money obviously hasn't brought them reward in life. These people don't like to see a craftsperson succeed. A lot of them will gain pleasure from getting you to jump through hoops cos they're dangling cash in front of you. Don't be too eager to please, don't give these people the impression that they're your superiors. Watch out for domineering women and 'small' men .

[@ChibiBoxing]

It really shows how much you have been around in your job, your tips are 100% on point.

[@randomgoat2272]

First! I did some more work on my forge today, got 2 pieces of the fire pot welded together.

[@stanervin6108]

🥇

[@RedmarKerkhof]

hi goat

[@randomgoat2272]

@@RedmarKerkhof hello!

[@jrocks1971]

Me too, doood. ;-) Just finished my fire pot. LOTS of welding... Happy hammering!

[@randomgoat2272]

@@jrocks1971 ahhh, you’re a bit ahead of me. I have very little experience with an angle grinder and did my first welds with a stick welder yesterday. I’m also 14 so time is scarce for me. I hope your forge goes well!

[@AtholIronworks]

All my years of buisness not just blacksmithing the key for me to keeping customers is under promise so you can over deliver.

[@holyhammerironworks2384]

My two cents. I have been running my own business for 14 years now. I would like to add about dealing with general contractors. First research them. Do they have a good payment record, are the slow to pay? Many want to give you a percentage up front but only enough to cover your materials and expenses, the balance is usually labor and they will want 90 to 120 days to final pay you after their project is completed. If it is a large project a written contract must be involved. If you are a small business it is not unheard of for them to not pay you figuring you can’t pay the legal fees to get your money because it’s more than what you would have made on the job in the first place.

[@freezinweasle1]

Great information Roy. Thank you. Along with blacksmithing, I also do leatherwork. I am a registered business but as I am retired military and also retired state employee, this is more hobby than career. Being in my 60's I'm not ready to go full time into another occupation. I currently have two wallets that were requested that have not been picked up yet. One has initials and the other a fire fighter badge number. No good to anyone else yet here they sit, waiting for pickup several weeks (months) after being finished. Both total @ $100 but $100 is significant to an old retired guy. These were the two things that have now caused me to get paid up front. I have many items in a local store that some has been sitting there for quite a while. It is a consignment situation and I will never enter into another. They take 30% which makes things at a high enough price to not move. Theft of items has never been an issue but ,,,,,,,, Again, thank you and God bless your family and business.

[@DBacaMaker]

Great advice not only in what to watch out for, but in getting over the idea one can't charge a proper rate and price for one's skills. That IS a tough mindset to break.

[@justin_ray]

Grateful for the advice. Was thinking of approaching a local store to carry my items.

[@kaptainkirk12]

thanks you chris, im starting since 4 months now and already experiencing this kind of situations. much love

[@jameswestbrook310]

I love you and you’re doing a great help to the blacksmiths trade thanks for your dedication Edgar’s Iron

[@1noryb]

Thanks! sage advice! I've seen the 'scratch and dent' effort too many times when I worked at a hardware store.

[@robertlonis9350]

Thanks for looking out Roy . Good solid business advise sir 👍

[@rowenmaxwell2965]

Thank you so much for this. I’m just starting a blacksmithing business and this was helpful. ;)

[@NOTINTERCEPTER01]

Been there had it most of it done to me and I've got an piece of advice get everything in black and white with an signiture even emails can be used as an contract.

[@forthehonorforge4840]

If a customer wants something big, like a bunch of highly decorative archways, and you aren't ready to take on the full project and aren't sure they really want all the details, talk with them about working on only one for starters and work on the decor modularly. Extra scrolls or leaves can always be added on after the majority of the construction. Be sure the customer is satisfied with the level of detail of that before proceeding to subsequent pieces. This way if the client flakes or is unsatisfiable you aren't out a bunch of material and have the option to finish it the way you want and sell it elsewhere.

[@Tinker_it]

Thank you! Always worth watching, and learning.

[@SchysCraftCo.]

very nice and helpful. thank you so much roy. keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work roy. can't wait to see more. forge on. keep making. god bless.

[@ValhallaIronworks]

Roy you are looking particularly rugged and manly in this video. I approve ❤️

[@drason69]

Yup. Even doing weekend/hobby work, I've been scammed. A bounced check, that cost me as much for the check as I sold the item for. Got bait n switched, on a set of fire pit tongs. And there have been at least 3 times, jacked on barters. Live n learn. "Don't be a sucker". 👍⚒️

[@timfrazier5164]

Brother your videos are awesome and helpful. But this one is the most helpful you've posted

[@cerocero2817]

I'm starting out as a blacksmith. Had to make a curve in a very long piece of pipe, so instead of making a complicated jig I decided to get it to a business where thay had a machine that could do it easily. They are already two weeks late in such a simple job, and thus I'm two weeks late on the client's order. I am atill not aure what is the moral in this story, I guess if you jave the possibility make sure the people you depend on for a part of the project are serious. I have to wonder if they would have already done ot if I had insisted in paying up front.

[@Boosted98gsx]

6:25 that's called "scope creep" once you've settled on a design, you stick with it, until you RENEGOTIATE a timeline.

[@jimq]

This happens with my real work customers all the time. We decide on something, then I do the work, and then they say "Well, this is nice, but I really want this." If you have a Scope of Work, you can always rely on that, so when it happens, you can have proof that they agreed on what you built. If they want a change, ok, but, the timeline, and price changes.

[@Boosted98gsx]

@@jimq Yep. CYA (cover your a)

[@Carterironworks]

Great advice sir thanks for the tips. Keep up the good work

[@DERWALDRUFT]

I had similar problems with one customer. She asked me a bunch of questions and for a lot of extra services but for the same price i told her at the start of the contact. That was weird..

[@kennardchristensen4303]

Beware of people you've known awhile. Hired a electrician to wire my wife's salon, paid him upfront, thought he was a friend, scammed me big time never finished the job looks like I'll have to take him to court.

[@Volundur9567]

Friends and family are the worst! They think they don't have to pay up because they are close to you.

[@bunyanforgings7849]

We primarily stick to referrals from good prior clients. The only catch here is if you underprice a job for some client, they will refer you to ALL of their cheapskate friends. We've learned when to say "no".

[@christopherconkright1317]

I use to be a painter people would always “not like the color” and try to get it repainted for free. After the first I put in the contract repaints at the cost of the customer you chose the color your choose to pay.

[@jmetals]

I had to make myself understand that as an artist blacksmith, that I am in manufacturing. I have my base cost to make a product. But i had to figure in two levels of price points, one for wholesale and then a retail. I've been scammed by the store keeper wanting a wholesaler rate only to find myself with no margin. Discovered i had been selling a lot of product at wholesale rates. It hurts everyone else who is trying to make a living to get what the product is truly worth.

[@brysonalden5414]

I think it all comes down to trust, whether I'm dealing with a private party or a retail shop that takes my product on consignment. I trust the three stores that sell my stuff, and have yet to get burned. I also get referral work from the consignment shops so I do custom work with their customers. So far I've been quite happy with the arrangement.

[@JariB.]

This video is terribly handy Roy, thank you!

[@TomofAllTrades]

Great video. Thanks for sharing

[@dgundeadforge17]

Thank you. Im working on trying to sell my stuff. Have a guy untetestedin a knife but will take your advice

[@sixpointforge5573]

I am a begginer blacksmith trying to start a buissness and i am pretty sure i got scammed. I made some gun racks and a family friend said that he could sell them for me i trusted him, so i gave him the gun racks and i told him that i wanted 125 to 150 dollars out of them. He got down on his luck and tight on money and can’t pay his rent. Now i don’t have any gun rack or any money. He completley ripped me off. I agree with what is being said and get the money up front. Always get money first and give the product after being payed.

[@jamesbarrow383]

One thing I would like to add is to beware of anybody who asks you to do anything outside of your normal shipping/billing procedures. Especially anyone from overseas who wants you to use their freight expeditor or some stuff like that. I have run across that scam a couple of times. I am not saying that they are always scams, but treat everything that people ask you to do outside of your normal administrative procedures as a red flag.

[@OuroborosArmory]

As a designer I ALWAYS get money up front for any job. Otherwise people are not serious, and you waste your time creating things people won’t pay for. I usually split it in thirds. Start, half way checkin, and right before/at delivery. I also put IN WRITING what the scope of work is, and have I; the contract that anything extra is an extra cost :).

[@jacobkotten338]

How do you get a good estimate of how much to charge for bigger work

[@lindboknifeandtool]

What are your thoughts on selling at a loss in the beginning? My thoughts behind selling for less than I want is that people will be more willing to buy if it’s cheaper, and I get my name out there. This is in regards to selling hand made knives and jewelry.

[@hannemannironworks1651]

Very sound advice Roy!

[@99PMoon]

Don't forget: Always keep your drawings and sketches! Don't even leave the room when the client is viewing them. What can happen is they could make copies and try to find someone else that can do the job for a lower cost.

[@mattpaulsen8299]

If you do decide to put your work in a consignment shop read the contract, maybe even ask an attorney if it is even a legal contract, the best advice I’ll offer is just stay out of the consignment shops. My experience with them is all bad and expensive

[@Mark71697]

Evening, I am a small blacksmith in South Africa trying to make my way and grow. Do you have any tips for getting established and making myself known?

[@Hooiser2142]

Thanks Roy great video

[@bentoombs]

Love this advice Roy. Thanks dude🤟

[@prepper2711]

Awesome video. Thank you

[@georgegriffiths2235]

Minimum upfront is cost of materials

[@billssmithy7352]

Not a pro, no intent to do more than hobby stuff that I enjoy. So, not so applicable to me. But it would be a good lesson for those doing this as a business.

[@PogyForge]

Words of wisdom!

[@christopherconkright1317]

I always ask for a minimum of the material cost I can always sell the item later if they bail.

[@michaelrobertson8795]

Very commendable video👍✌

[@rch317]

Time limits on quotes! Material costs are going up rapidly.

[@ryanhosenfeld677]

Digging the haircut!

[@gamer2101]

I know this was educational but all I can think about is if you can make wizard faces.

[@waskasoometalworks3329]

Another legal thing: call it a RETAINER FEE it by Canadian law is non refundable

[@waskasoometalworks3329]

I got bummed by the municipal government. They wanted me to make keys to the city. Changed their minds a million times, but they agreed on a design and a unit price. Come time for pickup, "Oh i thought that price was for all of them. That municipality is now blacklisted in the local artist community. They make huge dirty oil money, then make a history of stealing from local artisans

[@grandadz_forge]

Good to know

[@stenzeliron6818]

Could go on and on..... on this subject. The amount of work I’ve done and not gotten paid for over the last 8-9 years is insane! The Midwest is a miserable place to try and make it as an Artist. A person can be really really good at their craft and never make it anywhere. I know more stories that go that way Vs success.

[@conniebaca7390]

My husband owns and operates a carpet installation business and he goes a complete the job then leaves it up god to paid.

[@Volundur9567]

Roy's looking like an MMA fighter.

[@eli-barrrunforge5823]

Who’s this new guy!?

[@DBacaMaker]

The Domestic Roy has shed his winter coat. More streamlined for hot weather, he can move through the forge with greater speed and agility.

[@MrBAchompBAchomp]

Always over estimate costs. Never work for free

[@jaymuzquiz2942]

You guys don't use work orders or an invoice? I would imagine it's no different from a repair order for an automotive shop. You give them an estimate with a amount breaking downs parts and labor with a signature. Give em their pink copy and your covered.

[@scottlimbourne3079]

How do you get around charging some up front for something that you can't get to in 6 months or longer but yet you are on KZbin making videos on unrelated stuff after you took someone's money? People see this and you got some of their money but yet you are making other videos instead of their product.

[@nathanwish6857]

Maybe consider that’s already calculated into the timeline for delivery? Which could be the reason why it’s not immediate...other commitments and other revenue streams to support family and career have priority. Time is money. Prioritization is key to balancing your time and workload. If someone wants higher priority, it may cost. Either in time or money.

[@chili5369]

I do knives bro, I take material +20%

[@jaymuzquiz2942]

Use high prices to filter out cheap skates.

[@IslandMetalForge]

Yeah consignment sucks.... I won't do it again..

[@NOTINTERCEPTER01]

All so another piece of advice quote longer than you think because you are planning for the unexpected.

[@IslandMetalForge]

First!

[@stanervin6108]

Almost, Yammy. Second. But second is still first loser. 🥈

[@stanervin6108]

Oh, and btw. I came in at a deplorable nineteenth this time. I don't even get stale, rubbery French fries! 🍟🍻