How to outwit the Virtual Safety Car - an addendum

[@mikeysweetman1042]

well your first mistake was to believe the FIA would use a transparent, uncomplicated and practical approach

[@Mruck_Trop]

HA!

[@TheYoshi463]

UberXtreme-Soft TM to come for 2019!

[@PPedroFernandes]

Stratowind right? I think they are too close together, so using one or another is basically the same thing, which nullifies so many stratagies

[@EscapeMCP]

Surely this is the simplest system to implement, rather than timing stations every 50m round the track? Won't it be way easier to just take the info from the car's on-board data, hence the 50m travelled thing?? Using onboard GPS just wouldn't have the accuracy for timing in tenths (let along hundredths)

[@mhilmyfauzi4523]

So you're not really wrong, you just made a better rule than the FIA.

[@koningwillie6839]

Nah man he just didn’t do his reshearch

[@PPedroFernandes]

Dat Boi he said not even Charlie himself is quite sure, you can't blame it on him

[@alistairmuir5521]

If his videos and addenda demonstrate "not doing his research", you're even dumber than your comment suggests.

[@ia3215]

Making a better rule than the FiA isn’t that hard nowadays anyway... *ahem* engine penalties *ahem*

[@BC-iq8ks]

Well that was unexpected. So the FIA made an overly complex system, that not even the race director understands fully, with the same drawback of putting a VSC speed limiter. Well done FIA.

[@blueshift7320]

That was an incredibly dramatic intro

[@LRaufKadcon]

You got the Honda Red Bull Bingo Point right. Even Christian Horner’s speech/interview/announcement was kind of dramatic

[@oinka720]

they should have a bunch of mechanical hares like in dog racing. One hare for each car in the race. Maybe have a couple extra hares on hand in case Grosjean crashes into one and destroys it.

[@chainbear]

This solves everything. Hire this person

[@oinka720]

Wait I've had an even better idea. Use real hares instead of the mechanical ones, then the winning team gets to eat them after the race.

[@user-on4nx2ho7b]

This is actually fantastic you listened to us and made a video about it, thank you.

[@lordwizrak1905]

Keep up the good work Stuart. We honestly love the work that you put in.

[@Hirosjimma]

speak for yourself! we wanna say it ourselves maybe? :)

[@dinocadet77]

This is pretty interesting. Hopefully the system will be redone for next season. Even if the advantage gained isn't that game changing.

[@dAndriasta]

DinoCadet well, it is... I mean, it would be.

[@SpaceMopsHD]

But can you exploit VSC when u already crashed turn 1?

[@vishakaathresh3623]

Max Verstappen loll😂

[@samleuning]

Max Verstappen yes you just start walking weird lines around the track

[@carmillawoo6505]

oh a commedian, here's a joke for you, McLaren

[@miljannyjets]

Max Verstappen

[@MahfuzHadi]

Grosjean would blame Ericsson again if he crashed at VSC

[@olekaarvaag9405]

Your channel is the main reason I'm able to properly get into F1! Love the channel and your work! There's nothing like it.

[@finkelly9289]

Well that was entertaining

[@aydenkoyanagi1727]

KPH Crazy™ Oh hi didnt expect to see you here!

[@finkelly9289]

Ayden Koyanagi Nor Did I

[@xyzw888]

"addendum" As someone who used to study gears, I find your use of this terminology funny in a good sense.

[@chainbear]

points to anyone who knows where the music over the "comment section" comes from

[@Pokecatch03]

Chain Bear F1 is it the Super Mario Land bonus stage? I’m not sure, but that’s where I think I’ve heard it from.

[@Laiserball8]

it's the music after a stage in super mario land when you get to 'gamble' for 1, 2 or 3 lives or the flame power-up. it was actually relatively easy to get the 3 lifes consistently. what a game! played it for hours and hours. recognized it immediately. gameboy color all the way! =)

[@chainbear]

Elliota and Enceladus win points!

[@Andy-uk9bw]

Chain Bear F1 Is it from the film Harry Potter and the Chainbear of Secrets?

[@Pokecatch03]

Chain Bear F1 woo! Where does this put me in the championship?

[@tIhIngan]

Now Vettel's comments make sense. I thought they had fixed detection points as well, like they do for the jump-start signal, and DRS detection, and actual live timing. They do, right?

[@Kev-O]

Yo your the man for making all of these vids but also responding to criticism but thank you for working your butt off for all of us who love F1 even if your an American like myself that just want to learn more about F1, I appreciate the work you do

[@huntermcrobie7540]

I bet all of the F1 drivers will click on this if they see it

[@elijahlupe]

Underrated comment

[@im_skipachu]

OK, so during VSC, drivers switch to seeking the shortest path rather than the quickest path. It may be different from the normal racing lines, but I don't see how it qualifies as crazy. When he said "crazy", I thought maybe drivers would be weaving drastically from side to side (more so than tire-warming maneuvers), or some such, and that could be dangerous. But, if it's just hugging corners closer than normal, they all can do that easily and it shouldn't be a safety concern. In a way, they still get to compete while under VSC; it's just in finding the shortest path rather than the quickest path.

[@mattdobz]

Another note is that the driver can take the pit entrance and exit at racing speed, since they will already be seconds down on the lap delta in those last and first measuring zones.

[@LourensRolograaf]

you were wrong, you were wrong, you were wrong, you were wrong, you were wrong, it makes me so good saying that (not). But the question was in my mind as well, thanks for the update.

[@dan-andreinafureanu6046]

They could implement something like the slow zones seen at Le Mans. Make a sector or the whole circuit a slow zone and do not permit the drivers to exceed a certain speed.

[@dan-andreinafureanu6046]

I don't know, I'm not a specialist... Maybe they could make the cars use their pit limiter once this "VSC" would be deployed. Thus making all of the cars roll with 60-80 km/h.

[@xXEpicMehXx]

Nafureanu Dan still the same problem

[@JL897139]

Then they would shorten the track to go faster. So it's the same

[@Max_Flashheart]

Uncertainty = Opportunity in F1

[@himagainstill]

It makes sense from a technical standpoint to do it this way. Reckoning distance relative to the track will require figuring out precise track positions with better accuracy than standard civilian GPS can provide at speed, and is likely going to require possibly the largest Hawk-Eye installation ever. Whereas reckoning distance relative to the vehicle with enough accuracy to measure out 50m blocks is something London Underground were able to do 50 years ago on the Victoria line.

[@justanothercarguy7134]

Props to you for helping us better understand such a complicated sport👍🏼❤️

[@subhasishgoswami4879]

This guy has some serious guts

[@NicksSkillz]

time = distance/speed. By reducing distance and going the constant speed of the VSC, time is also reduced.

[@chainbear]

Sort of - the point was that the way distance is measured is different for the F1 car and the VSC time.

[@kenchenfpv3568]

The thing is, I think you can intentionally be a little further behind the VSC, and then full throttle a few seconds before VSC is disengaged--if you get to 0 delta with the VSC right as it disengages, you get a lot of speed it is as if you got a jump start than if you just simply stuck to pace and then accelerated the second the VSC is disengaged. But I could be wrong, because I am not sure about the "must be overtaken by VSC at least once"

[@AdzSONLINE]

I'm so glad somebody made an animation to explain this..... 😂 Thank you very much

[@sideslick1024]

I hope that they leave it as-is. As a driver, under the current system you are left with the choice of: a) Should I weave and put heat into my tyres, but use more of my distance? or b) Should I drive the shortest line possible, but have cold tyres on the restart? EVERY driver should already be seeking every advantage they can eek out, at all times. They even do this in the speed-limited pitlane. It's not like they are physically traveling faster. They are still limited on how fast they can safely go. I fail to see how this would undermine the safety-aspect of a VSC.

[@shahine.s.f8453]

thanks for your great video clips. you explain them clearly.

[@MAlanThomasII]

It might be merely a tech reason. The car has basic physical access to how far it has traveled, and a clock is an incredibly simple thing, allowing for easy onboard VSC calculations as long as the car knows generally which section of the track it's on, which is easy to do and pretty failure-proof. I admit to not knowing what timing technology the FIA currently uses for F1, but no-one's paying to put a transponder decoder or whatever every 50 meters, and centimeter-accuracy real-time GPS or similar approaches to instantly discern when a car crosses an invisible timing line will weigh more, cost more, and generally fail more often.

[@Unformed8]

Im not surprised you though it was tracked relative to the map, itd be sensible, but also might be harder to track than going by car data, as each car has internal measurement systems for the egg heads to try to optimize performance with, but yea, you can screw yourself by driving by the outer wall and screw the system by hugging the inner. Diz shenanigans gon be gud .

[@marko1395]

You really like the color yellow. I love it.

[@Aimless6]

We saw the solution last weekend. Le Mans has a slow zone system. The drivers need to be on the pit limiter *before* entering the yellow sector or they get an automatic stop-and-go penalty. This also takes care of the 'leaving the pit lane' at full speed under VSC. Of course this is way to sensible for F1.

[@Lashb1ade]

Here's another problem with the system: weaving. If you are weaving along the track to warm your tyres, you are increasing the distance you travel. So drivers are going to be forced to make a decision: lose chunks of time, or take the restart with cold tyres.

[@josep_donoso]

OMG the editing is simply wonderful! I wonder how you make it...

[@MotorsportsTamizhil]

Vettel could sense the tens of seconds lead everyone took from him. What a skill 🔥

[@DreamOf944]

this might come from the FIA not actually having transponders and sensors at the track every 50 meters. seems like they use direct car data, and the car doesn't measure its relativity to the center line, it only measures the distance that it's actually driven.

[@ryandwyer9029]

The explanation in the video didn't make sense to me until I realised that the driver has to slow down to even slower than the delta to take the shortest line. They then gain that time back by driving faster than the delta elsewhere on that sector. Also, I suspect the reason the VSC is set up this way is because the FIA doesn't have timing lines installed every 50m on every track. Rather than install dozens of timing lines on every track, it's more cost effective and easier for the FIA to use the teams' telemetry - but this is based on the distance the car has travelled, not at what time the car arrives at a particular point on track. Using GPS is probably not a viable option either due to the inaccuracy. I don't understand why they don't just enforce a speed limit during VSC similar to the pit lane.

[@chrisc3825]

Interesting how there is still “underground” knowledge amongst the drivers in a sport that is analyzed by thousands of media outlets 24/7.

[@zergreenone8111]

Media outlets are primarily analysing the sport for the benefit of casual viewers, or at the very least people who are quite interested in the sport but not quite on a pro team or anything. Of course the people who professionally do this for a living are going to be those people who know more than anyone else about their sport.

[@zergreenone8111]

This is exactly the reason why, if a professional, intelligent human says something extremely relevant to the job that they do all day for a living, and it seems to you to make no sense, it's a good idea to look into it more deeply and determine whether or not it is, in fact, true, rather than completely discrediting them and assuming they are just stupid or something.

[@GPBX01B]

I would assume its done this way because then all the instrumentation you need to enforce it is already built into the car. Putting a hundred more speed traps on the track probably comes with a price.

[@Asdayasman]

I've got a flannel, to wash my face; When it gets mucky, I feel disgraced.

[@schievel6047]

This system maybe looks weird from a spectators point of view, but it just makes sense from a technical standpoint. Measuring the time every 50 meters on the track means you have to have measurement equipment on the track every 50 meters. Measuring the time every 50 meters distance travelled means only one measurement device in the car. Well, having measurement equip every 50 meters sounds unreasonable, but of course, this is F1. It is still possible to manage that, and they probably will in the future.

[@frothybeast7884]

The graphics on the ‘tv’ are from a f1 inspired pc/mobile race management game called IGP Manager

[@chainbear]

I have no idea what this game is?

[@chainbear]

Oh I guess they do kind of look like that. But no, I made them myself from scratch for the VSC video.

[@frothybeast7884]

Keep up the good work Bear, your videos are brilliant. I wasn’t insinuating copyright.

[@seanb6691]

So my guess is when they implemented the VSC, they used lap times of a Mercedes AMG (you know.. the safety car) driving regular racing lines. They would've done all their measurements based on that. We haven't had a photo finish to a race in many years, so if exploiting the VSC only gets you a couple of tenths, then is it really anything for Vettel to be complaining about?

[@zahidicky5405]

What is safety car line 1?

[@LamboWalker23]

Show this to Lewis *cough* Australia *cough*

[@jameswright4732]

I'm with you on this one. That system makes absolutely no sense. How do they even measure that? Via in car telemetry? And at that point, are we assuming the VSC has a constant speed around the track? So many unanswered questions...

[@aragami0686]

why don't they get a real safety car to drive around the track a few times, record the coordinate of the car every milliseconds or so, and force drivers to follow the line? if they're out of place just give them arrow for navigation or so on the screen

[@DuncanCunningham]

I thought vetted was talking about drivers taking strange lines to keep Tyres and brakes warm.

[@jacksoneilers4841]

New views for this episode after Ocon-Ericsson overtake in Suzuka

[@mat_bb]

nice. please do a vid about safety car lines

[@randomboi8081]

Advantage gains are minimal and have no bearing on the outcome of the race. Vettel bitching about the VSC was just a result of it coming out at a bad time for Vettel's race strategy so he does what Seb does and throws his toys out the pram.

[@ChrisBLong]

I would suspect that there simply isn't a way for them to measure the car's time through every 50m on track in the way you suggest - that would require either a GPS-like system on each car, or else measurement electronics buried in the track surface every 50m, nether of which sound very likely. Much easier to have the car's existing electronics measure off 50m by counting wheel revolutions or similar... though this is all speculation on my part, of course. Do F1 cars measure their speed by counting wheel revolutions, like a road car, or do they use (something like) GPS?

[@draconicdusk5911]

Chris Long, you know when the graphics show up during a pit stop that sometimes show the track layout and the leading drivers moving around on that map? Yeah, that's the GPS tracking system. It's also used to time each car during the VCS. Gotta say though, that's gotta be one accurate GPS

[@chainbear]

the cars have very sophisticated GPS in them - much more sophisticated than you're allowed to have in your car (military spec) so it can be done via that. GPS goes into stewarding decisions too - it's pretty precise!

[@ChrisBLong]

Yes, in retrospect I suppose it's obvious that an F1 car would have GPS on-board, though that wouldn't be reliable in the tunnel at Monaco or somewhere with lots of trees around the track like Monza. How do the FIA get the cars' location data for the on-screen maps etc? I seem to recall, in the olden days, the cars could only dump telemetry data as they passed the pits, but now it all seems to be real-time - does it go through FIA systems around the track and then on to the teams? The answers to these questions and more will be in an upcoming video (I hope). Thanks for all the great content.

[@renstein8210]

It still doesn't matter as all the drivers can only drive on the race track, and they all drive on the same race track. So, all the drivers work to drive the fastest line under the VSC, that's no different than the rest of the race.

[@3-lias]

Isn‘t it obvious that you‘ll be faster if you take a shorter way when you have a fix pace? Or did i miss s big point?

[@josephlecorre5161]

Why don't the FIA implement a fixed speed limit like in the WEC?

[@brianchatfield2571]

Is this a yoke? Gp2 Channel :D Love the channel keep up the great work

[@xenon_eleven]

I featured!!!

[@lestmak]

BUT IT’S THE SAME FOR EVERYONE! Just like when you’re racing on a dry track at full speed or taking strange lines like Max Verstappen in a wet Brazil race, the conditions are the same for everyone, so you just have to deal with it. If someone is smart enough to drive one a quicker line and it’s a legal one (between the white lines), then that shouldn’t be a problem in racing, right? If Vettel knows about these lines, why is he complaining instead of using it?

[@Abdul-pv1qt]

Lester Mak Because in a way it is kind of cheating the system even though what they are doing is completely legal and maybe vettel doesn't want to abuse the loopholes?

[@lestmak]

Vettel doesn’t want to abuse the loopholes? Sorry, but his career has been all about exploiting loopholes (with the help of his team). Blown diffusers, bumping other drivers, wing mirrors, extra electrical power, party mode buttons, MULTI 21... that’s the game of F1.

[@Aimless6]

He does not want to be forced to drive in the dirt and pick up marbles to compete. That is the down side of leaving the racing line.

[@NYCHeavyHitz212]

Stratowind great point on your second comment.

[@Tjezee]

He's only really complaining because he couldn't exploit it this time and got overtaken under VSC in spain. He even said ' everyone knows it and everyone abuses it ' which implies he uses the same lines if he can. This is also why drivers are instructed to weave as little as possible to get the tires warm but instead use the accelerate & decelerate method so they can still use the best line possible. So yeh, I agree, it is the same for everyone so why not just deal with it.

[@rogerwilco2]

The problem might be that the 50m gets measured from the car's odometer.

[@Reydriel]

2:31 Setting the video at 2x speed here turns the song into DnB lol

[@TheFatmer]

With so much dirt off line who would want to cut a corner to save fractions when it could loose you seconds cleaning tyres when VSC ends...?

[@JNST2023]

Someone about to pit :)

[@Blast-Forward]

Ahaha, thanks for making the video! :)

[@krachbummduke]

Why not simply use the pit limiter like WEC and FE

[@谈佳梁]

hey bro,could you tell me the software thay you showing in the video?

[@rival2028]

Can u do this on the F1 games

[@jayanthpaul9631]

What if we give a certain speed for the driver keep up for each sector?

[@lorenzopirozzi7298]

Jayant Paul That's what the VSC does (should do)

[@ethanzhang5683]

why cant they just have those things in go-kart where race control slows the cars to a certain speed???

[@snowjix]

Im good thank you

[@PhonyBread]

Sounds like a pretty big fail on the part of the FIA, if you ask me... Why measure distance traveled by the car, when literally everything else in the sport is measured between two points on the track?

[@allenqueen]

but that doesn't explain how were they exploiting the VSC by drving "crazy lines".. Don't drivers always follow the race-line, which is already the shortest distance???

[@xenon_eleven]

Kakashi Hatake the racing isn't the shortest line, just the quickest line if that makes sense

[@draconicdusk5911]

Kakashi Hatake, he did actually explain how driver were abusing this. The racing line is the fastest line through a set of corners, mainly cause it's the best way to maintain speed. However, when the VSC is activated, they're no longer going as fast and can afford to take tighter corners, thus cutting the distance traveled by a little bit. Time= distance/speed. And since everyone has to maintain a set speed the tighter you can take those corners during the VSC, the more time you save.

[@amccfischer]

What about getting rid of the VSC? The FIA admits that they would like to see closer racing and more overtakes, a safety car bunches up the pack and makes races more exciting. I don't see why the VSC is needed.

[@aformalevent]

you would think a speed limit would solve the problem

[@monarchy-5623]

Wow, officials confirm Vettel does have a brain which is rare among drivers

[@fazlee712]

should make the cars run on only electric power during VSC

[@dibden99]

why wouldn't you use a system already implemented and already in place I.e the actual timing sectors!

[@jonskowitz]

"Politely"

[@DiViNiTY1337]

....this is how the delta has always been measured? It's literally the simplest way. They just measure how long time it has taken the car to drive a certain distance, namely the distance of the racing line. How else would they measure it.

[@chainbear]

the way I described?

[@julsicna]

Track id for the song at the end ?

[@timothybogle1461]

Who's here after George Russell's mastery after the 2022 French Grand Prix.

[@lv.99mastermind45]

Solution #1: Use the actual safety car

[@raywhite7832]

Unfathomable. Going slower and taking longer lines does not gain time? Am I crazy?

[@zahidicky5405]

What is Overcut?

[@KaiserBob99]

The opposite of undercut. Pitting later than a rival to gain track position from them. Usually it's the inferior strategy but it can work.

[@snowjix]

Kaiser Bob - Its an inside job

[@jorisfries7595]

We need Slow Zones

[@cassiofficial]

yea, it's about how the tracking is implemented. cheating software is a matter of knowing how the software has been coded, and it's quirks, not only about the logic behind the software. i was sure they don't have sensors on the whole track when i tried to come up with a way of cheating the system in my comment. i just couldn't guess how it is actually implemented, so my cheat was off.

[@Kick_ma]

F1 needs to dump vsc and use slow zones instead

[@peterandreaskirklossius825]

New video!!!!!!!!

[@finleyahmad-hambling5980]

So basically it is like a yellow flag Also does this work on the F1 games?

[@reaneya]

Sky should give you a job

[@ronaktripathi6332]

Alonso won Le Mans, red bull switch to honda...a bingo card update must be in order

[@zzyzx0069]

Only one thing to say....get rekt ChainBearF1, Get rekt FIA and get rekt Dr Doom (Because it's somehow his fault)

[@snowjix]

Its all Ericsons fault, everything is ericsons fault.

[@BigBrex0124]

Hahaha this guy is the best

[@Scirzo]

They should drop the vsc all together and bring in more safety cars over all. Even with the tiniest incident or piece of debris. This way the field will come together more often every race and there will be more possibilities for overtaking. Will not happen, I know, but man, wouldn't that be fun!

[@florian111295]

No

[@PPedroFernandes]

Scirzo no. Seriously no. I know we want better racing, but forcing everyone together is a terrible and so unfair idea

[@ArtiQormemeti]

Hey. I was polite.

[@vigneshbalasubramani5770]

last time u said it was impossible XD

[@vigneshbalasubramani5770]

but thanks for explaining it with animation coz I couldn't understand what shit Charlie was saying

[@ledionroci1502]

So you were wrong and Vettel was right?

[@DrewlarkFun]

APOLOGIZE TO VETTEL

[@koningwillie6839]

Why would vettel say such a thing, including that other drivers do it and it is not a secret he only does. I find it rather disapointing that you would blame vettel (or any other driver) for talking shit without proper reshearch.

[@b1ff]

Heh, pretty sneaky reusing a comment like that…