How to Record Acoustic Guitar Using Mid Side

[@stupendousmusic4190]

I just saw Bob Clearmountain do this with two Neumann U87s. (Terrible, very over-rated mic.) I thought to myself: "Genius! But what if I do the same thing with a Beyerdynamic M 160 and M 130?" Well, you beat me to it, and you showed how great it is! You and I both use Studio One Pro, and Beyerdynamic headphones. I mix on DT 880s and record on DT 770s, sometimes DT 150s. Great video. Thanks!

[@tonycarpenter-Makzimia]

Recording this way along with my vocal. Using a Rode NT2A in my case for figure 8 changed my recording life about 4 years ago. If you’ve never done m/s recording, Try it!. Spoiler, I also double track individual tracks on top.

[@andylaverymusic3451]

Mike, thanks for an excellent video. I've been using a Vanguard V44S (1st gen) to do M-S recording on my guitar and I'm very pleased to see that I'd set up my DAW (Cubase) in the same way as you've done, with a channel for the sides and then the full guitar. One thing that I've noticed in my own recordings and I could see the same on your stereo out channel in the video, is that when the mid and sides are all 'joined' up, one of the R/L channels is higher than the other in the stereo pair. I couldn't hear much impact from this in my headphones listening to the video but it's quite noticeable in my recordings, even with the sides at low volume. I adjust this in the full guitar channel by panning, but am I doing something wrong? Thanks again.

[@wpaldridge]

I've done MS on acoustic many times, mostly with a C451 for mid, C414 for sides. I've tried the same set up as you, but I found the Beyers to be just too dark. Of course, I typically don't record a big, bright Taylor! Usually darker Martins and the like. I'll try the Beyerdynamic set-up again and report back!

[@CreativeSauce]

Hi William they are dark. If I were recording fingerprinting (with no nails), then they may not be the 1st pick. In this case, with newish strings, a pick, and a Taylor, there was plenty of highs, which I find to be quite smooth. But the AKGs are also wonderful of course :)

[@stupendousmusic4190]

If you can try it with a J200, it might be magic. if you're finding things a bit dark, give a very slight boost where needed. The M 160 and M 130 are basically beyond reproach, as is everything from Beyerdynamic. If you can get a hold of two MC 840s, it won't sound dark at all. Looking forward to hearing what you discover.

[@CreativeSauce]

@@stupendousmusic4190 - agree. The M160 when I was setting up could very dark if just 2cm out of position. In many cases, condensers will sound good pointed at around the 12th fret - but in this case, it was the cutaway where it had a nice balance. But as I said, 2cm out of position, and it was muffled and boomy. The M130 on this setup was actually much darker. As the M160 sets the primary position, the M130 cant be moved around for better tone. However, 3 seconds of EQing sorted it out :) I've now doubt that the AKGs mentioned get a more instant result - but sometimes, depending on the guitar, player. and song - its really nice to round of them high transients - and I feel the Beyers excel there.

[@recordthechord]

Thanks for the video, but would’ve been curious to hear the mono summed mix again after you eq’d the L/R sides differently. Obviously doing this means they won’t completely cancel each other in mono. Probably still sounds ok with minimal EQ, but defeats some of the perfect phase when summed to mono (which actually still matters with all the mono Sonos speakers/small Bluetooth that folks still listen on today). Those side L/R channels need to be identical except for phase for this to work as designed.

[@MxxRie]

Always found that processing of the channels before decoding changes how well the mics work together. Processing after decoding is a lot less of a hassle and sounds a lot better. Only processing that is helpful before decoding is time alignment. At least that is my experience

[@ThyLordMysterion]

What do you mean by decoding?

[@CentaurPress]

Great info. Thanks!!

[@personalfreedom2700]

Great video thanks! Did you know that if you EQ the reverse polarity channels differently to one another then it means they are no longer totally out of phase? Is this an issue for you?

[@kevinnasky771]

Brillant. Wonderful video.

[@NbgBytezYT]

Excellent video Mike You are really helpful and you are underrated. Would it be possible to do a video on tips to create a good melody because I really struggle to make a good melody.

[@resslerartstudios]

Can you do this live? Meaning listening while recording. Actually record to an already set up channel where thr phase is changed and panned to the right. Or is it a sound only created after the intial capture? Thx

[@CentaurPress]

I have seen it done. Seems smart so you control levels on the way in🎵😊

[@beatweezl]

Hey Mike, great video and very well-explained as usual!

[@dundrowpommes651]

Thank you for this great video. I learnt good things!

[@CreativeSauce]

My pleasure :)

[@marin4311]

Thank you for all the details.

[@jefjahn247]

Well now, would ya have lil looksee there: time-travel _is_ possible ... ... through the magic of video editing! 😝 I’m a bit of a Taylor snob myself, so I’m “all in” with my guitar as raw as she gets. That said ... wow 😳 what a ginormous difference a touch of processing does! Thanks for the tip, Good Sir. I’ll have to try this soon 👍

[@ScottRandall31]

Will try this!

[@sevenfifteen]

Mike, if this is too nerdy a question, please ignore. But during the video, the stereo image was oddly weighted to the right on my headphones. What I mean by weighted is that I heard a balanced signal on both sides, but the right side had much more lower frequencies than the left side, so that it tends more to the right although the signal is perfectly balanced on both sides. I hear this often when using phase inversion, and I wonder if this is an issue with my ears, my headphones or a normal technically explainable effect?

[@WessNyleProduction]

some bidirectional miss do that. the Royer 121 comes to mind.

[@BaraMatahariPagi]

Thanks for the great tips Mike:)

[@thefabulousbordellos9496]

Sounds fantastic 👍 just tried it with a guitar track I've got in Cakewalk, reversed the polarity on one track, as you predicted the meters move but no sound only after panning left and right there's still no sound? What am I doing wrong? Help! Nev.

[@CreativeSauce]

Hmmm. Definitely listening in stereo? Is the original a true monitor recording? Not sure to be honest!

[@sevenfifteen]

Cakewalk has a little icon on the tracks with which let you switch between mono- and stereo-streaming. I bet the tracks are set to mono. Switch them to stereo. See Cakewalk documantation: www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=Playback.19.html

[@thefabulousbordellos9496]

I went back to the project this morning and it's all working fine, bloody gremlins! Thanks for the help, hints and tips, Nev

[@michaelanderson4395]

Hmmm... I assume the polarity switching is not available in the Artist version?

[@soundofmai]

Great video. I'd love to try this but my room is untreated and I imagine the M130 would pick up too much sound of the room?

[@themusicindustrialcomplex]

I find mid-side recording relatively simple, but getting the mics to stay in the right place using two mic stands is a nightmare!

[@houmangf]

Can I use tlm 103 as mid and m130 as side for recording violin?!

[@steelesaldutti]

Great video! I’m noticing that the stereo image tends to skew to one side or the other. Any tips for dealing with that?

[@ashworthhausaudio]

It's about the mic position. He set them up slightly off centre to the main volume of the guitar body. If it was aligned more with the sound hole, the stereo image would be more centred.

[@vivalazik]

Hi. Applying a different eq on your L and R side guitars make them no more 100% mono compatible I guess ? 🤷🏻‍♂️ They wouldnt cancel eachother anymore I mean

[@houmangf]

You are right! I don't recommend it too.

[@gon2u38]

MIKE WHAT DO YOU THINK 9f the Mackie control surfaces for Studio One. I AM considering that setup & would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks Troy-Gabriel

[@CreativeSauce]

Hi Troy. Thanks for asking. There are many good qualities with them. They are solidly built, and set-up with studio is very easy indeed. But I have had some issues. My main controller is one of the early versions. The faders are quite noisy at times, and occasionally stick. The extender, is,a newer version, and fader are much much quieter. However, the display, repeatedly becomes more and more dim. I've had them replaced twice. This is a known issue, and each time it happens it can take weeks to get repaired. Essentially, even though it's a known issue, Mackie just resupplied the same part. There is a third party who makes replacements that people say work so that's what I'm trying next. One that is repaired, I am going to try an alternative. I have my eye on the qcon pro g2 from icon at the moment. Will make some videos about it when it arrives.

[@auggiean1734]

Sir if you don't mind ,can I know which daw you are using in this video ,is it a free one or have to buy it?

[@MrTADEUSARIUS]

Hello and thank you so much for your videos!I have just one dynamic mic.Can i use it for acoustic guitar recording?It is Sennheiser E 906.

[@EdThorne]

WHat's the top end frequency roll off on these ribbon mics? Ribbons are useful for guitars to minimise high top end buzz and electrical noises, as long as they're getting at least up to 12k.

[@CreativeSauce]

The M160 starts its roll of at around 7kHz i think, and is down by 3db at 18kHz. I think the m130 rills off a little higher.

[@EdThorne]

@@CreativeSauce Great video Mike. I'm envious :-)

[@SamuelCurtis]

Great vid, Mike! Super helpful. One question: You emphasized the importance of a bidirectional second mic but you recorded that mic in mono. Haven't you lost any bidirectionality benefits before processing anything? Would recording the top mic in stereo give a similar mid/side effect without the phasing issue when converted to mono?

[@weynotllandin]

It's a mic with a bidirectional pickup pattern, not a stereo mic. It still just puts out one signal, the nulls (angles of total cancellation) are just in a different place than with e.g. a cardioid pickup pattern. Also, there are no phasing issues when summing to mono. After panning and polarity switching, summing to mono just sums both signals to zero, leaving only the 'mid' signal in the mix. This is desired, because it guarantees complete mono compatibility, as many playback devices are only capable of mono playback. You mix for mono devices using only the mid mic, and for stereo devices using both the mid and side mics. Therefore, foregoing the mid mic and only using the side mic woul leave you either with nothing in mono (if you pan amd invert polarity) or with what's equal to a simple center panned signal in stereo (if you just pan left and right without polarity inversion). It just wouldn't be very helpful. The thing about the figure 8 mic (the side address mic) is that it picks up less direct sound and more room reflections; also more sound that comes from the opposite ends of the guitar and less from the middle, where the mid mic is pointed. Don't forget that a guitar is not a point source, much less a guitar in a room!

[@jurgenschuler8389]

Sorry, but why not pan the mid channel to the left, the side channel to the right, bus both to a stereo bus, and apply the MS processing of the mix tool on the guitar bus?

[@CreativeSauce]

Hi, thanks for watching, and your suggestion. The first mic is a very direct sound - the second more of a room sound. Its likely to sound a little ones sided in stereo, and not great in mono. I say this, not having tried it, but that would be my expectation.

[@jurgenschuler8389]

@@CreativeSauce What you did in the first 8 and a half minutes or so, is - apart from a level adjustment - what MS-processing is: Without the level adjustment L = M + S and R = M - S, where the - is a 180° flip of the phase. Applying the MS-transform of Studio One's mix tool does exactly what you've shown in these 8 and something minutes. Applying the MS-transform twice gets you back into the MS regime. However, you will find that there is a level drop, often by -3dab per mix tool application. That's why it's sometimes suggested to set up a new preset that applies the MS transform and +3dB gain.

[@CreativeSauce]

Interesting. I guess I just do it the way I do, because just about every engineer I've ever seen does it that way! That doesn't mean its best - but just what I learned. I just did a quick google, and pretty much every authority does near enough the same as me (EG www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/). So I'm just wondering what they have all seen that you and I cannot!

[@harrisfrankou2368]

@@CreativeSauce Im trying my zoom HD8 tomorrow for the room. My mic close and zoom I'll experiment with various positions.

[@CreativeSauce]

Awesome :) Let me know how it goes!

[@mrblah-zay6169]

I must admit, I find all the information about recording and mixing far too complicated for me so I just record my acoustic guitar, try a bit of reverb and leave it there. Probably sounds rubbish but my head won't allow me to understand all the mixing stage. Just call me a simple man I suppose. 🤣

[@CreativeSauce]

I think if what you are doing sounds good to you, then go for it. Some days I do exactly as you say - especially when it's in the mix with many other things. Other times, to get a specific sound, we need to do specific things :)

[@mrblah-zay6169]

@@CreativeSauce I found the bit bit about placing tge mics quite educational and useful. But, the mixing, technical names and all that, way, way over my head. Lol. But I do try

[@demetriuspaschalides4622]

If you only watch and read the theory , you will never understand it. Trial and error until you get it . One step at a time . Go watch videos and read ONLY to solve the next step . Don't take the whole information in at once. Needless to say , you should take notes. Hope this helps a bit buddy ! Great video Mike !

[@CreativeSauce]

@@demetriuspaschalides4622 nice advice :)

[@mrblah-zay6169]

@@demetriuspaschalides4622 it does, if only if I knew what I was trying to fix and where to improve. 🤣. The advice does help and I do appreciate all the advice I can get my hands on. So thank you. ❤️