How to: Shower Shooting in Middle Eastern Archery by Mark Barton

[@richartist40]

Thank you both Armin and Mark working together to bring back the generations of archers long past into out lives .They live again through your work and practise when we follow their path ..

[@abeldasilva9368]

In a couple of weeks I will definitely give it a try.Thanks Marc & Armin for doing this video.

[@meanwileinthedesert..2320]

Slow is fast. Fast is smooth. Smooth is deadly. Great vid Armin.

[@jareth7456]

Slow is smooth...smooth is fast ....the reason for this perspective is to not fumble or otherwise botch it .

[@DerekBartlettBeorn]

I've been watching the tutorial parts here on repeat, trying to apply the draw-and-shoot to Slavic since that's the area I'm batter at---I *love* how the Ottoman method was brought up here, it makes SO much more sense to me now, I tried modifying it myself before and it was similar to this, I guess great minds think alike, huh?---But anyway since the clips keep saying "the historical source", I'm curious as to which one this is quoting/using, whether it's specifically the book ARAB ARCHERY or if it's SARACEN ARCHERY, etc. because these details are the kind that I study word for word---or frame by frame---when I see them.

[@DerekBartlettBeorn]

11:34 the Second Method there is the one I've practiced the most with both the thumb and Slavic draws, still trying to make sure my middle fingertip doesn't get kicked outta the nock groove while I slide forward. It happens to me (and probably a bunch of others trying it, idk) with the contact of it sliding forward instead of staying in place till sliding backward the way it's apparently supposed to so I'm working on turning my wrist a little more to keep the middle fingertip away from the string when the arrow slides forward so it'll be there when I slid it back and not fumble

[@TakalBrothers]

Great video and awesome demonstration....I guess a new thing to start practicing hehe. Thank you.

[@jareth7456]

Peace be with you 🙏....thank you so much you guys are too kind ...let me know if you would like me to walk you through it

[@agamagreen]

Excellent research and presentation, dear Marc! You have explained it very well, now it’s our turn to try! ✌️😁 Thank you so much, dear Armin for spreading and practicing/ trying out yourself (in the cold)! ☺️🙏🙏

[@jareth7456]

That is my wish ......thank you buddy.......and it's always a pleasure to have a distinguished horse archer such as yourself give their input ....

[@gediminasmorkys3589]

That one-movement loading part of all this looks very cool.

[@jareth7456]

Learn it , see how deceptively simple and ingenious it is and it'll be way cooler ....and thank you

[@gediminasmorkys3589]

@@jareth7456 I'm working on it!

[@petrm4436]

Perfect video thanks very much.

[@DerekBartlettBeorn]

6:02 I gotta remember to practice that "snatch release" and 15:33 blind nocking

[@sjohnson4882]

Great! I noticed that Mark had a leather tab under his thumb ring on the outside of his thumb. You could vary the tightness of the ring by using different thicknesses of leather. Personally, my thumb changes thickness depending on the temperature. (and perhaps other conditions like hydration/dehydration and who knows what else)

[@jareth7456]

I have like three different.....I call them kulak ....technically kulaq go in the front of the ring but in spite of the pain I prefer the skin contact with the string.....I figure eventually my skin will harden , anyway I use three different thicknesses of leather tabs to keep my ring snug .....come to think of it I think I'll try an actual kulaq .....I've hadn't used one yet because I'm thinking the part of the kulaq that hangs below the ring and protects the skin will start to curl and end up just getting in the way......but I'll give one a try and report my findings

[@Alias_of_Alias]

Interesting! Thank you!

[@matthewbarton1356]

As a Barton, I approve this video.

[@jareth7456]

Cool 😎.....do you have family in Pennsylvania?

[@matthewbarton1356]

I am not 100% sure. A lot of my grandfathers side moved out east and we never heard from them again.

[@jareth7456]

​@matthewbarton1356 let me know if any of these names ring a bell , ....joice......Randy ......Len......Bink........Floyd......John

[@temperance3377]

Does mark barton have a youtube channel? Id like to see more of his videos but cant find any of his content anywhere

[@ArminHirmer]

not yet, but he is thinking about it

[@johncuthbertson2565]

The knowledge we have lost was priceless 😢. Trying to get it back is not easy and I for one greatly appreciate the dedication of those who try 🙏. I will practice these historical techniques that our forefathers learned though blood sweat and tears 🏹

[@taahiresau2523]

Hi Mark, thanks for this. especially in your accuracy of practical vs text I do believe that the "rotation" you refer to, comes after a while when the archer starts to combine: (1) shifting the nock of the arrow from reckoning 3, to the palm, with (2) driving the arrow forward. This could be done unintentionally or intentionally in order to speed things up. I have also not found any specific reference to utilizing shower techniques with a zihgir or leather for that matter. However, your explanation has helped me now. Also, I've noticed the manner in which you apply your 'aqd (lock upon the string) seems similar to the method applied by Tahir. which makes sense for showering. would you say that there is a slight difference in the method of applying tafweeq (nocking the arrow), with that of the manner you have shown us now in shower?

[@jareth7456]

A slight difference, however one should drop the thumb down or rather roll the thumb under the nock to get the proper positioning for locking the string.....so that when the string is locked in a proper 69 the arrows nock will lay on top of the web of the hand (the skin between the index finger and thumb) instead of the web of the hand being mashed right behind the nock ....which can cause the arrow to be pushed off the string . For a good visual representation of the proper and correct hand positioning in relation to the arrows nock , I believe Dr. Murat Ozveri has a video showing this......notice that the hand is rotated more to the right instead of attempting to line it up straight forward....it will line up more straight forward as you draw . I hope this answers your question

[@taahiresau2523]

@@jareth7456 not sure if you are referring to the same thing I was: I was not mentioning the lock on the string, rather tafweeq - the manner of loading an arrow, which is pretty much what the vid is about. I do believe that Mark is very accurate in his method demonstrated, however, I do think that there are subtle differences between the classical "methods of tafweeq" according to the source manuscript referenced, and the shower shooting techniques. Mark mentions some "secrets" in showering that are very useful. Also, If one combines using the 22 or 38 hold on the arrow in the draw hand, and using this to force the arrow onto the string with the bow hand (also mentioned in the source manuscript), while the draw hand (thumb,index and middle finger) only guides the knock toward the string, then the arrow "popping" off the string should almost never occur.

[@ncoutdooradventures6148]

Thank you for this presentation! What about the "no nock" shooting? You then would not need to know the direction of the nock,, just place, pull, shoot.

[@ArminHirmer]

with pinch draw possible, I think not with thumb ring

[@jareth7456]

It's very similar with this method , the technique will take care of nock indexing to the point you no longer need to think about it

[@jareth7456]

If you are interested in nockless shooting Jeff Ozeppy is the man to ask he's a master of the technique and a super nice guy I'm sure he would not mind your inquiry

[@ncoutdooradventures6148]

@jareth7456 thanks but I already know about the nockless method, just suggesting it as another option to what this video shows.

[@SparkleDonkey]

Very inspired. I have work to do.

[@jareth7456]

Good Very good this is what I hoped to accomplish, if you have any questions or anything I'd be happy to sit down with you and teach it to you.

[@SparkleDonkey]

@@jareth7456 wow, thanks!

[@stav1369]

Was this a military technique or hunting?

[@ArminHirmer]

both

[@jareth7456]

Was used by the Mamluk for sure in battle......was also the favored method for hunting lion by the kings of Persia.

[@williamwood6795]

Which bow is your friend shooting??

[@ArminHirmer]

no idea

[@jareth7456]

My friend Ahmed Karat gave it to me when I broke my Nawalney Turkish bow 53lbs @28 is what I normally used . I think this one Ahmed gave me is an Alibow 35lb

[@Dom_Smalls]

Wonderful tutorial on the fast shooting methods. Are you using an alibow turkish here? I love when I see teachers use the budget bows for lessons and practicing. An archery video before bed always leaves me ready to dream about doing this on horseback!

[@ArminHirmer]

thanks and yes, Alibow Turkish fiberglass

[@chriss3913]

I don't get it. I've practiced shooting multiple arrows in hand before, but the thing slowing me down is the feather orientation. Do you not bother to have the top feather on the outside? Or maybe the purpose here is to send arrows quickly and not very precisely?

[@ArminHirmer]

as long as you have fathers and not vanes it does not matter, there is no difference in accuracy

[@jareth7456]

Totally correct, many tests have been done to prove this out , you can do like some horse archers and arrange the fletching so that the cock feather is either up or down, it's how I do it but no don't even bother looking at the fletching.....there's no need and it'll only serve to make you slow , accuracy is not affected by having the cock feather pointing elsewhere

[@chriss3913]

Oh wow! But won't that just destroy feathers much quicker?

[@chriss3913]

Anyway thanks! You got me excited again to take out my bows for a spin! 😂

[@jareth7456]

​@@chriss3913no they will not wear out faster, but to help protect our fletching we wrap electrical tape at both ends of the fletching

[@MarkROrel]

Mr. Barton is using arrows without fletching. Is that necessary to shower shot as a quickly as possible? And if so, how accurate is it and for what distance? Or was it just easier to show the process?

[@jareth7456]

The reason for using bare shaft is that it teaches you how to fire the arrow straight....but also with as much as I shoot it becomes very expensive keeping fletching on arrows, the old Persian and Turkish arrows often times had fletching that went all the way up to or even onto the nocks ....this technique works great with such arrows and neither the fletching nor the technique is harmed in any way

[@AbahSahla-z3v]

Subhanallah. Terima kasih penjelasannya tuan Armir dan tuan Mark. Diameter of nock must be more then Tick of string?

[@jareth7456]

Even if it wasn't...which was the case in ancient times....it still works just fine

[@jareth7456]

The only reason for using wide nocks such as the larger koc noc is so you can feel it and get the tip of your middle finger in the end of the nock groove....that said it still works just fine with even the smaller modern nocks ....but those won't flatten out against your palm when you press on them with the tip of the middle finger so shooting quickly is ....problematic with narrow modern target nocks

[@AlkahfiArchery]

Nice to try. 😁👍

[@RS_]

The most difficult part of the first method is the very first thing- finding the nock with your middle finger.. I mean its not that difficult when you hold just one arrow, but how the hell to do that when you hold 3 or more? Seems impossible. Would like to see anyone shooting fast using this method...

[@jareth7456]

This step is actually not necessary at all its only my preference but yes it can be done with a little practice it's not as difficult as it first appears .....but like I said it isn't at all necessary..if you keep a firm grip on the nock end of the arrow yet not so much that it can't rotate in the hand.....it has no choice but to end up in the correct orientation for the old blind nocking technique

[@crazyhandyman2668]

tank you

[@bennjamieson1626]

Can this be done with high poundage bows?

[@ArminHirmer]

yes of course, thats why the thumb ring

[@jareth7456]

As long as you are able to draw the bow then yes absolutely, this is the actual historical technique that was used by the Mamluk and ottoman......they used bows in excess of 120lbs at times

[@fathor9047]

I think learning how to nock blind is the most important, no matter which method you use. But I really want to know how practicable these methods are when you grab the arrow from your quiver and not just holding it ready to draw and shoot.

[@jareth7456]

Excellent question, based only on what I've learned so far the entire system is seemless and flows effortlessly together, every little thing has a definite purpose.....for example take the shape of the old Turkish nocks , the shaft gets thicker right before the nock. This had a few reasons for it...to make the shaft stronger to withstand the forces of the string but also this shape makes it a thousand times easier to hold onto almost locking it into the fingers so no matter if you are shooting from a mount or running on foot one can do so with far more confidence than if it were a straight slick shaft . Currently I have a guy in hungaria probably the best craftsman of leather armor, quivers ect . Making me a real Turkish quiver and a bunch of other cool stuff that cost an arm ,leg , first born kid .....your question and more will be throughly investigated as I too have these very same questions. High on the list is the arrow guide shooting majra arrows.....if anyone has a good one made of bamboo they want to part with I'd be very appreciative.

[@jareth7456]

By the way...are you talking a single arrow or several? ....drawing single arrows and firing them off with these techniques is very nice like it was meant to be....as for drawing several...more investigation is needed

[@yerde]

Maybe you can convince mr Barton to create his own channel. It would be sad to lose the knowledge again.

[@jareth7456]

OK I'm convinced

[@RS_]

I feel Ya, Armin! :) Here in UK its been like +4 to +6 and windy , and I can not shoot for more than 20 min... my fingers start doing their own thing , not what I want..;) I can't undersyand how some people comfortably shooting in -25C and yet vlogging for like one hour :)

[@jareth7456]

No doubt....what a trooper !!!

[@hellequingentlemanbastard9497]

What I noticed with my Yew longbow is that when it's cold the bow shoots better and has more power than when it's hot. Is this the same with a traditional laminated bow?

[@ArminHirmer]

usually no

[@hellequingentlemanbastard9497]

@@ArminHirmer Great. Thanks

[@lostseraph5430]

I see..now the long space between nock and feathers on the fast shooting arrows makes sense

[@jareth7456]

However not at all necessary, some of the old Persian and Turkish arrows had fletching that went clear onto the nock ...it's perfectly fine to grab the fletching and the technique works just as well......having the fletching as far up is only for practice so to preserve the fletching

[@jarneriise]

Well, nice research. Also both of you did a great job not showing the most important part in detail: nocking the arrow on the string and moving the ring onto the string in one motion. I guess it is the hidden knowledge only the most hardcore archers are worthy, and they will figure it out by dedicated hard work and practice ;)

[@jarneriise]

Okay, I did my homework and figured it out, so I finally earned the knowledge, and it feels great! (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞ Thanks for both of you, and I hope you will post more real historical techinques!

[@jareth7456]

Go back to the description of the blind nocking and just practice that ....then after the arrow is nocked you keep the same finger position don't remove the fingers keep them right where they landed ....then simply rotate the hand about 40 degrees counter clockwise if right handed at which Time the thumb rolls under the arrow shaft to the string and the index finger locks

[@jareth7456]

​@@jarneriisegreat job !!! See you are more dedicated and hard-core than you thought...I call the technique to lock the ring after nocking...turn the faucet

[@jedgurley]

Looks like a pain to get used to,, interesting stuff!

[@jareth7456]

Not at all , military technique tends to be very simple and easy.....give it the old collage try , if you have any issues with it I'd be happy to walk ya through it step by step

[@arthurrobey4945]

Every Tuesday was dedicated to the martial arts for all males 14 and over. Our Oera Linda. Translated by Jan Ott.

[@TheSapier]

Hey, love the videos. Could you review the Samick SKB 50? There's not much about it on the internet and it seems like a pretty interesting design :)

[@ArminHirmer]

thanks. I guess for a good reason :) as nice as the bow looks, I think it only draws 28"

[@TheSapier]

@@ArminHirmer well.. that explains why I'm having so much trouble with my form haha, time to buy a new bow

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

Getting ready for the Reiat Trophy?

[@jeffrorussow8110]

More volume please

[@DimitrisFrini]

Well, about icy fingers and cold weather. I cannot help but pointing out the irony. Shooting in Middle Eastern "style" but on a snowy field? well...these two dont work well do they? Perhaps there is a connection between styles, and temperature. As it is connection between different bows and landscapes/wood access etc.

[@ArminHirmer]

interesting thought, yet even in Siberia or China they have minus degrees to deal with

[@DimitrisFrini]

@@ArminHirmer sure. But do we know if during these seasons, or particular areas if they used these types of bows? Do we have depictions of short bows with snowy landscapes? That would be an interesting search field. I have already read your reply to another comment comparing the performance of a longbow in low temperatures.

[@dulatabdrahmanov7498]

🖐️🙂👍🇰🇿🏹🍎

[@pyramid_scheme_termination3655]

Snap release violate Gao Ying archery principle and is abrupt release. So many contradictions in archery

[@jareth7456]

Yes Gao Ying is Chinese archery.....this is Arab archery

[@jareth7456]

Also it's not a snap release...it's a snatched release...huge difference. With a snatched release...think of it like the one inch punch of archery. The materials which made up the original composite bows became stiffer the faster the bow was drawn ....so in drawing fast and releasing before the materials in the bow had a chance to relax from material creep ....one could actually add a few more pounds of draw weight to the shot , the entire methodology and technique of shooting these bows was to make them as efficient as possible....like using Khatra to have your arrows fly perfectly straight from the beginning instead of relying on the fletching to straighten it out down range , we know from numerous tests that this alone adds an average of 15fps ....it may not be huge but it all adds up .....max penetration is very important when up against an enemy wearing lamilar armor. The Manchu bow and arrow didn't need so much help for penetration......they would routinely fix two people together with one arrow.

[@zipfelklatscher2468]

Why do you want to shoot in a shower?

[@jareth7456]

To literally rain arrows upon the enemy.....they would fire so many arrows so quickly it would blot out the sun .....very scary to be on the receiving end

[@zipfelklatscher2468]

@@jareth7456 ah ok. Yes there would be a lot of bloodshed so you have to shower afterwards 🤔

[@jareth7456]

Well unless the enemy follows you to the shower .....actually I think they used baths back then some of which were huge like a swimming pool ĺ......the more the merrier lol 😆

[@jareth7456]

I'll do a video in which I use this blind nocking technique after drenching my hands in blood .....simulated blood ...corn syrup, egg whites and red dye ....blood is sticky as well as slippery......I want to show that the technique works in the most adverse conditions and with something commonly encountered in war ....blood

[@sandorszollosi4337]

Magyar vagyok,itt van nekem,nekúnk kollár ákos. Magyarázd el neki is.

[@jareth7456]

I'm very sorry I didn't understand your message can you say it another way perhaps?

[@Winston-lf7sb]

um..... 120ib war bow plus. higher draw weight bows.... youre not "shower shooting" those. these bows featured here are low draw weight and wouldnt do you much good in a fight. especially against anyone in armor

[@ArminHirmer]

it is not always about penetrating armour and not everyone shot 120# bows back in the days, even if we like to believe that

[@Winston-lf7sb]

@@ArminHirmer if you went to war, yeah you did. historical facts. warbows are heavy. target practice bows are not. this type of drawing and firing is fine. for entertainment. for combat, war, battle etc in any actual battlefield, its a complete waste of time and arrows and this "technique" will prove useless. bows in war: volley fire never actually happened. especially like you see in movies. armor is highly effective against arows especially shields. archers fire straight at their targets to try and score not only a direct hit, but one that will miss the shields, pentrate armor and bypass other protected areas. war bows are heavy because unless you are a brigand robbing unarmed, unarmored peasants. you will be facing up against someome with armor and shields and a 40ib target bow simply wont be a serious threat to a man at arms.

[@ArminHirmer]

@@Winston-lf7sb it's okay, you are seemingly the perfect historian, so yes you are absolutely right. We are just playing around here

[@jareth7456]

Actually they did use heavy bows with this methodology.....you just need to be stronger.....mace and clubs training

[@Winston-lf7sb]

@jareth7456 heavy bow? lol 120ib war bow is more than heavy and mace and club doesnt do it. there is a reason why archers have a certain stance when firing these bows and it has to do with body mechanics and physics. this rapid shooting junk is simply not going to happen with a war bow and wasnt done with them. this will not work with a 120ib bow. its simply physically impossible at thr bio-mechanical level.