How to Stop Cheaters in MTG - Mana Weaving!

[@wingusdingus1019]

This comments section is funny. Cheaters arguing with non-cheaters. I play this game casually, but I have to say I don't enjoy manaweaving. Getting flooded or screwed is part of the game. If you don't like it, play Yu-Gi-Oh or some shit like that, no mana required! Play hearthstone! MTG is a game where mana is a mechanic. It is a part of the rules of the game. You don't get to just edit the rules to win the game. If you want to play magic: perfect hand every time edition then play with your friends where you always do this, but if you bring this to FNM, you are no longer playing the same game as your opponent. I don't see how people can actually attempt to justify it

[@MTGDegree]

I never expected this video to be one of my most controversial, not gonna lie!

[@Akatesinomura]

It's...not really part of the game. The "every X cards, add Y mana" is to prevent both manascrewing and flooding. In theory, they're still posssible to happen, but very unlikely if you shuffle your deck *actually randomly* . So weaving mana, of all things, is a silly issue to bitch about since odds are, if your opponent is an efficient shuffler, the end result will be same or very alike. I barely play magic, but this seems like a non-issue people like to bitch and moan.

[@wingusdingus1019]

"quit bitching" is a pretty common excuse for cheaters, but it's clear that we're really not saying the same thing. You think it should be a part of the game, but it isn't. Sorry. There is no other point to be made. Of course you want to win at the game, and that's okay, but modifying your deck to provide better odds for you is cheating. Arguing that it's "no big deal" or that "it sucks to get mana flooded" is a different conversation. Is it cheating? Yes. Is cheating against the rules? Yes. That is the entire conversation. It IS a part of the game. Play a different game if you don't like the rules. I know that sounds elitist as fuck, but these are the facts.

[@Akatesinomura]

It's cheating because you're not shuffling randomly. But if your opponent is a good shuffler, or a judge shuffles (assuming judges are good shufflers) the end result is the exact same, that's random chance. But yes, it's cheating by the definition in the book. Also, if you're playing casual or with a friend, who really cares? If neither of players gets manaflooded/screwed, that's definetly a more fun battle, assuming, again, you're playing as *casual* and/or *with a friend* with previously agreed upon statement that "weaving is K in that game".

[@RogueTomahawkGaming]

Wingus Dingus I have an all wolf token deck that pullz every land in it if the deck goes off. Is it cheating to mana weave then shuffle several times ?

[@kevinwu5169]

"Don't worry about wasting time shuffling (opponent's deck), because you're not gonna play anyway." Savage.

[@tygonmaster]

Well, even if the game played out, you would not be "playing a game" anyway. You are playing a clown fiesta with a dishonest assclown.

[@tygonmaster]

top1 Then, any good judge will know what the intention was, wave you on, and you keep going. Less forgiving judges would give you a time penalty. Few would actually dq you for it as most get into judging for the exact reason that they hate cheaters and know the value in being careful.

[@yakojjy]

If you think their deck is mana weaved. Just give their deck a good random shuffling, and play the game. Problem solved.

[@fedlrrose]

the problem is that as the presenter said, it requires about 20 good shufflings to get random again. doing shuffles for that long is enough to get you a penalty for wasting time or worse.

[@robotsandmonsters4756]

Any deck with >52 cards can be mathematically randomized with between 7 and 10 riffle shuffles. Hand over hand or board shuffles take thousands of shuffles. Not sure why so many land on 20 as a number nessecary for randomization.

[@TheWhyteC]

For the purpose of the video you should use different sleeves for the different type of cards. Like color code them. That way with the shuffle we see the acrobatics

[@mrSleepyAzn]

just shuffle right side up for us

[@filippoclozza22]

kids did it boi

[@rowan1987]

Jokes on you this is legacy goblin charbelcher i have only 1 land xD

[@Arkalius80]

A better way instead of un-pile shuffling is to do your own pile shuffle, but instead of doing 5 piles of 12, you do 12 piles of 5. If your opponent did 2 5-pile shuffles, you do 2 12-pile shuffles. It will reverse what he did. Depending on how many he did the deck may be in reverse of its original order, but it should still show the obvious mana weaving that was attempted.

[@ForcesOfOdin]

+Arkalius80 This should be rated higher.

[@thomasaktor6867]

It's a general algebraic problem, that is easily solvable for any number that is a divisor of 60.

[@fsmoura]

*_*generality intensifies*_*

[@randyrandalman8234]

yup just repile shuffle his deck. then all his mana get stuck at the top or bottom, and you can bet your opponent won't mana weave again game 2

[@JBBost]

You may only pile shuffle once at the beginning of a game. If you take this tactic, you are slow-playing.

[@thatoneguy2886]

I got introduced to magic in high school we could only have enough time for 1 or 2 games of commander in the morning so we all mana weaved. I honestly thought it was part of the game until I went to a casual draft at my card store and after my first round the guy I went up against called me out for it he looked like he was gonna get all pissy for a free pack (the prize for winning a game) so I apologized deconstructed and let him shuffle the deck “properly” Moral of the story not everyone weaves thinking they even ARE cheating best straight up say “ are you mana weaving?” Gaige from their reaction what to do next

[@Chris-ci8vs]

lol, 'didn't know it was cheating' my ass

[@thatoneguy2886]

@@Chris-ci8vs yep hindsight it was pretty dumb of me but when you start out playing in highschool, everyone weaves, half the guys thought nobody noticed when they drew 2 cards instead of one or "forgot" some triggered ability that would have cost them the game, but now im into the game so much I could probably judge (casually) thanks to how well I learned the stack and so on

[@zd5587]

Yeh I agree. I do it after I’ve just built a new deck since I have all my creatures and spells in a stack and all my lands in a stack but I’ll weave it then shuffle it for a couple minutes so it feels like a decent way of getting everything mixed up. And I don’t have any motives of cheating. I just want to make sure I don’t have a pile of lands and a pile of spells and never be able to draw a good hand.

[@thatoneguy2886]

@@zd5587 yep thats about were i am now too although some other comments here saying "mana flooded/ drought is part of the game git gud ect i play casual and we all love not being able to play because we don't have mana" and so on and i just want to tell everyone of them that no! they don't play casual, they play tournament level at home. casual isn't playing magic at home its playing magic with lower tier decks and/or RELAXED RULES ie running nephalim/non legendary commanders alowing urza's head and other silver border ect and the group realizing that the ezuri token deck is stuck at 2 lands maybe let him pull one or two to hand so he isn't out of the game and hey we only have time for 3 games or 1 if the blue player hits his first 7 land drops and everyone else didn't so lets weave and lightly shuffle also try teaching a new player how to play when half the time they are boxed out cause bad draws

[@zd5587]

@@thatoneguy2886 yep causal players can have bad ass decks but it’s the mentality and the social contracts that seperate them. For example a few of the guys I play with like to draw 10 to start with and if they mulligan they just draw another 10 until they can find 7 that they can have a good start with and put 3 back on the bottom. Then if one of us gets down to only like 3 life and they want to keep the game going they will see if there’s a way to let him get his lifeline in real quick to bump him back up. It’s like a semi competitive/semi let’s hang out and make this last a while and when we get ready to go then we will all go hard for a turn or 2 and see who wins. I don’t mind it at all.

[@Thex1xManBetter]

103.1. At the start of a game, each player shuffles their deck so that the cards are in a random order. Each player may then shuffle or cut their opponents’ decks. The players’ decks become their libraries. This meeting could have been an E-mail

[@reaumwingblade5783]

So wait... If a double nickel mana weave takes twenty shuffles to sufficiently re-randomize... Why wouldn't someone double nickel before they even set foot in the building, then properly shuffle twice at the march start?

[@lukaspequenomatos1681]

this will only be possible on the first match, cause after a match you will have a mixed graveyard, a mixed field, a mixed hand and a mixed grimoire to deal with

[@whitecrowcodoom]

@@lukaspequenomatos1681 maybe not because if you play similar each time, an example I have is a kid with sliver deck would play the same couple of cards mana weaved which they'd have indestructible and shroud by I think turn 5 so it would be about the same and then he'd put the cards on the field the same way and then double nickle and get the same result every time if not off by only one or two cards

[@niccosaur7778]

Lukas Pequeno Matos weave what was played place on bottom you should have enough duplicity to have the same deck you started with statistically speaking

[@briancooley8777]

Ive never been to a tourney before. Couldn’t you just redo the mana weave between each new match before they start? Or do you start a new match like immediately

[@zcmyers553]

3.9. Tournament Error - Insufficient Shuffling Warning Definition A player unintentionally fails to sufficiently shuffle their deck or a portion of their deck before presenting it to their opponent, or fails to present it to their opponent for further randomization. A deck is not shuffled if the judge believes a player could know the position or distribution of one or more cards in their deck. Examples A. A player forgets to shuffle their library after searching for a card. B. A player searches for a card, then gives the library a single riffle-shuffle before presenting the library to their opponent. C. A player fails to shuffle the portion of their library revealed during the resolution of a cascade ability. Philosophy Players are expected to shuffle their deck thoroughly when it is required and are expected to have the skill and understanding of randomization to do so. However, as the opponent has the opportunity to shuffle after the player does, the potential for advantage is lowered if tournament policy is followed. Any time cards in a deck could be seen, including during shuffling, it is no longer shuffled, even if the player only knows the position of one or two cards. Players are expected to take care in shuffling not to reveal cards to themselves, their teammates, or their opponents. A player should shuffle their deck using multiple methods. Patterned pile-shuffling is only allowed at the start of a game. Any manipulation, weaving, or stacking prior to randomization is acceptable, as long as the deck is thoroughly shuffled afterwards. Additional Remedy Shuffle the appropriate portion of the deck thoroughly.

[@flood256]

mana weaving prior to shuffling is not cheating as per the official tournament infraction guide 3.4 . Any manipulation, weaving, or stacking prior to randomization is acceptable. if you opponent wants to distribute his land before shuffling that's fine so long as the deck is then shuffled. this should be pointed out as i have actually seen a player receive warnings Unsporting Conduct - Minor for calling a judge of a pre-shuffle weave

[@therealBigMoth]

Thank you this guy is full of salt for losing matches so he came up with a formula to validate he was "cheated"

[@VirtualGnome]

I think what this is specifically pointing out is pile shuffle then hand to your opponent. A lot of newer players wouldn't know the rules in place stating that a pile shuffle cannot be your final shuffle due to it not randomizing the cards in any way. It happened to me around 6 years ago where the guy seemed to have the perfect hand twice. He had prestacked his deck like this and was called out his next match and DQ'd.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

@broran If you do it during a match then you can get a warning for slow play.

[@adamrobinson6951]

@@VirtualGnome This video massively oversimplifies. As he said himself, theoretically it would take 20 shuffles to fully randomise a weaved deck. So any player trying to cheat will weave, then shuffle 2 or 3 times. Completely undetectable and unprovable, as the deck will be pseudorandomised, yet still guarantees a better distribution. If you're playing competitively, always shuffle your opponent's deck as much as possible. If your game isn't serious enough to be worth 20 shuffles, the a deck with land just added to the top will not be shuffled sufficiently. You end up cheating yourself through mana flooding or screw.

[@joshuaharris2245]

@@adamrobinson6951 I'm not sure what kind of shuffles he's talking about, but a well performed poker shuffle can randomize a deck in 7 shuffles. If you're well practiced this can be done extremely quickly.

[@Kenagalaz]

Opponent: *starts to cheat by shuffling* Me: *reaches over and slaps their hand*

[@Flailmorpho]

ok but instead of calling a judge I'd just hand the deck back to them and watch them squirm as they only ever draw mana

[@natalie6811]

What if they mulligan?

[@Baehellet]

@@natalie6811 Then it's you who is being the cheater and gaining an unfair advantage over your opponent by handing them a deck that you shuffled in a way that forced them to mulligan.

[@natalie6811]

SIES_ssbm Why are you calling me out?

[@Baehellet]

@@natalie6811 Simply answering your question truthfully.

[@natalie6811]

SIES_ssbm oh whoops, somehow only read the first half of the sentence, sorry

[@ghoulofmetal]

Pile shuffling is only legal for one thing, counting. you always have to shuffle after a pile shuffle.

[@XDamainI]

+Andras Petersen yes, and that is a infraction for not shuffling a deck if someone tries to hand it off to you.

[@SnapquesterMage]

+Andras Petersen Yeah, I always pile shuffle six piles to double check confirm 60 card count, then overhand shuffle and cut at least 3 or 4 times each after.

[@milamber319]

+Andras Petersen i pile shuffle but i do it at random. so the piles get made in a random order each cycle and nearly always end up with substantial differences in numbers. if i have 5 piles i put cards down in this kinda order (at randome) 2314533242152342435534223253

[@JRPKeller]

+Andras Petersen As someone who does some slight of hand card tricks, I can tell you that you can do a LOT of different shuffling techniques in this situation...without ACTUALLY shuffling at all. In this case...if someone has a pile of lands and a pile of spells? Well, I can split each of these piles in two, riffle and/or bridge shuffle them half a dozen time each, making an act of switching up the various piles (when I actually didn't), and other actions that LOOK like they do something when they actually don't. Then, I could put them back together before stacking the on top of each other and going to do a pile shuffle. It will LOOK like I just shuffled the hell out of them...because people looking won't know that I started with my deck completely divided up between lands and spells. The are numerous ways to make it LOOK like things have been randomized without actually changing anything. As long as someone can end with a pile shuffle without raising suspicion, then the technique can still work. Even if the rules say a non-pile shuffle has to be done after a pile shuffle, it can be incredibly easy to be disarmed just by the process. Which is to say nothing for slight of hand tricks that can simulate shuffles without actually doing them.

[@livedandletdie]

+John Keller There are ways to make your opponent do this to himself too, and yeah, there's nothing people can do about cheaters in this system, even allowing the judges to do all the shuffling isn't a good countermeasure for card cheats.

[@Sakrilegi0us]

How about a video on how to properly clean up your board when the game ends, and properly randomize your deck before your next game? My problem is if I fetch up 3/4 of my lands and the cleanup I don't know how to best randomize afterword.

[@samk8005]

+Adam Mercier I've wondered this many times, I would love a video like that.

[@Ceb773]

+Adam Mercier I've heard if you mash shuffle your deck 7 times, it is sufficient for it to be called "random". Usually after fetching or tutoring I mash shuffle 5-7 times, but before a new game I'll mash shuffle around 10 or more. As for cleaning up your lands, what I usually do is just scoop up the boardstate and mash it into my library instead of putting them on top and then shuffling.

[@decomposingbrains]

+Adam Mercier what i personally do is kinda make sure i ain't got more than 2 lands/3spells togehter, then give a good 5-10 shuffles gets random enough

[@abj136]

+Adam Mercier Easiest way to clean up after a game: shuffle all the used cards together well then mash that into the library and shuffle everything.

[@JonathanStYves]

+Adam Mercier "I don't know how to best randomize" You just shuffle a lot. I see some people suggesting to mash the lands in the library instead of putting it on top, but that should not matter. If you think it might matter, then you should shuffle more. Because that's the point of shuffling, the initial order should have no incidence on the final random result. Also, a random deck doesn't guarantee even distribution of lands, quite the contrary. It's not like when you mix you pasta with sauce and it get homogeneous. Random distribution have a very high chance of creating clumps when you consider 7 cards out of 60. Check this, a serie of random 1 and 0. Notice how many consecutive 1 and 0 there are. www.random.org/integers/?num=60&min=0&max=1&col=1&base=10&format=html&rnd=new

[@lilpotayto]

A number of people in the comments seem upset by this video but it's important to remember that this is in the context of a competitive environment where manaweaving gives one player a much larger advantage over other players. Also, you can weave much more than just mana. There are three turn combo wins that you can set up by weaving the right cards together (during Kamigawa there was an infamous 1 turn win) and that's not including eternal formats. A game shouldn't be decided on who is able to weave cards into their hand the best. It should be decided on who does the most with the cards they draw. In a tournament scenario raw weaves mean that the better player loses to an underhanded 'strategy'. Now, *in a casual setting* this is obviously very different. You want a fun interactive game so, as long as everyone knows what you're doing and they can likewise do the same, there isn't a big deal to mana weaving. It stops manaflood and manascrew and if your opponent is cool with that then there isn't really a problem. The difference here is you aren't breaking official rules and you aren't lying to your opponent nor is there anything at stake. I do this all the time with my group and it's grand.

[@FredrickTesla]

In our casual games a 8-10 pile manaweave was required before every deck's first match. A win due to mana flood/ mana drought is not a real win, all it does is get people pissed off and possibly ruin the night.

[@nickmagrick7702]

thats totally cheating, but setting up your mana randomly and just spaced out, then giving it a shuffle, isnt cheating. But if you do it in a way where you can predict which cards are coming up or their association with other cards, thats clearly cheating. Stacking your deck vs spreading the cards out.

[@tommybahama4418]

And after you play a long game, say with Eldrazi, you're pretty full up on all your lands on your field, so when you go to put your cards up to play another game you have a good 6-18 lands in one spot in your deck, so I would mana weave to re-distribute my lands throughout my deck, and then shuffle them normally for as long as the other person would carry on a conversation for. I played in a Card Club though, nothing competitive.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

+Uden One-Eye Not every deck is as susceptible to mana-flood/mana-starve, that's why it creates an unfair disadvantage. And no, it is not acceptable by the rules. Mana weaving is not a shuffle.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

Mana weaving is an insufficient shuffle, what is your point? Also, why did you just outright ignore the first part of my comment?

[@codmw3junkie]

Just getting back into MTG. Haven't played since Invasion so I'm appreciative of seeing this video. I'm not as worried about being able to randomize my opponents cards as I am being able to spot cheaters. (because I've spent over 25 years in poker as a player, instructor and dealer) Thanks and keep them coming.

[@MTGDegree]

I'll make a little effort in continuing the series for ya, Nathan :)

[@Odd_Magus]

If your gonna cheat do it the old fashion way and learn how to do card tricks

[@DJayPhresh]

"It's only cheating if you get caught"

[@indi1769]

"D - A - R - B - Y. Apostrophe after the D."

[@jbnsntr88]

@@indi1769 Your turn, Mr. JOeStiRR

[@GetTooasted]

Honestly I would let my opponent cheat if he could do some acrobatic card trick cheat

[@bradensorensen966]

The heart of the cards.

[@busTedOaS]

12:00 "If you do non-random activities to a random selection of cards, you will get randomness out." That's a misunderstanding of randomness. It is meaningless to talk about a single deck being "random" or "nonrandom". Randomness is a property of the shuffling, and not of a single outcome. Two examples for illustration: 1) It is possible for a well shuffled deck to be highly ordered. In fact, if this never happens, your shuffling isn't truly random. Yes, patterns should make you suspicious, but patterns also appear in random noise. Like the fact that Pi contains any finite string of digits infinitely many times. 2) Imagine a certain ordering of the cards that you would call intuitively "random" (so no mana weaving or whatever). Now Imagine that I shuffle in such a way that my deck is always in that particular order. Clearly that's not random either, it's actually completely deterministic.

[@LegitBobsYourUncle]

I win mtg Friday nights by bribing the judges. Don't need no mana weave.

[@FiveGuysOneTuba]

You smart

[@shmergulflargamish7686]

Haha, that's good.

[@vjm3]

What's the name of these judges, and this place you play at?

[@Corey-dk3xi]

#moneyweave

[@onframe1343]

vjm3 oh lol silent voice be like

[@Falcrist]

You absolutely *DO NOT* need extra shuffles to randomize a deck that has been double nickled. That's not how randomization works. At most, you need 1.5×logb2(N) shuffles to fully randomize a deck with N cards. In practice that should be lower (around 1.25×logb2(N)). That means a 60 card deck can be completely randomized in 7 or 8 shuffles. Fully random means each possible order of the deck is equally possible no matter what the starting order was. For more info, google "Bayer and Diaconis 1992"

[@dudaseifert]

yeah, when he said "about 20 times" i just knew he was full of crap

[@Simon-ow6td]

Just out of curiosity: What counts as a single shuffle?

[@dudaseifert]

Take a deck, divide it in roughly half, mash it together. Thats a shuffle(well, these calculations usually rely on it being a riffle, but still)

[@Simon-ow6td]

I figured it would be that easy, but nothing wrong with asking :P

[@Falcrist]

Eduardo Seifert The "mash shuffle" is directly equivalent to a riffle. The result is not different in terms of the mathematics.

[@kdiggity4802]

"It took me a while to figure out how to deconstruct the double nickle" (does double nickel backwards) lol. Good vid.

[@Arvensa]

I feel like a lot of judges would not sit there patiently and watch you deconstruct the double-nickel. Until you prove that cheating occurred, you're running down the round timer, and the judge's time is valuable as well.

[@Pineapple_Thief]

Why not? What do you think judges should do with their time? Roll their thumbs? Aren't judges supposed to judge? If you think somebody is cheating, call a judge over and let the judge do their job - to judge. If you think somebody is cheating, shouldn't you be allowed to explain _why_ you think so, so that the judge can actually _judge_ ? So what if it takes time? Judges frequently make *time extensions* . I see no problem here.

[@GetSome29347]

@@Pineapple_Thief the only problem here is that the OP is a fuckin moron lmfaooo

[@crazytim8256]

@@Pineapple_Thief Large sanctioned events will have a few dozen of pairs of players in the first couple of rounds, so the attending judge(s) has to be accurate and brief with their supervision in order to attend to so many players.

[@floridaman6982]

Why not just shuffle it when they hand it to you?? Also when you are deck building most people sort their cards then “weave them” together before shuffling.

[@kalaknuan1845]

Make a vid that shows how you shuffle your deck the right way (^_^)y think this would clear-out lots for many players.

[@Doom1461]

I agree a video on how to shuffle the deck properly would be great, especially when you have over ten lands that were previously in play

[@chaos0987654321]

>mind if i mana weave >mana what? >you know ordering my mana between my cards before i shuffle so i dont get mana screwed >isnt that cheating >no, its okay as long as i shuffle my deck afterward >.....why are you mana weaving? >so i dont get mana screwed >but thats cheating! >no its not im shuffling my deck after that >*then why are you mana weaving* unironically its not cheating....its a mind game

[@killboi207]

Cheating makes me sick, ruins all the fun in the game... If your a cheat, and you read this, don't comment please, I don't want to hear your excuses. Games are about playing and having fun, when you use a method to manaweave, your not playing the same game as your opponent, and you shouldn't feel good about winning that way. Thanks for the heads up bro, really appreciate this, being a non-pro I did not know this stuff.

[@crimson90]

And just remember, everyone: pile shuffling isn't a sufficient shuffling method by any measure, hence deck-stacking cheaters use it. Some people pile shuffle and aren't cheating because they think it actually does randomize, and as soon as you bust out the math for them on why it isn't, they don't do it anymore.

[@blightedadmiral7006]

It’s good at separating things after a game where you have a bunch of lands in play. Is it mana weaving? No.

[@paxpw4017]

My heart sank when I saw I did the first shuffle technique. I didn’t even know it was bad. I do it differently tho. I put extra lands with certain cards so they can get out quickly then I shuffle for a few minutes, I’ll check the deck for Any bad stuff fix that then shuffle. Draw a hand, if it’s good I’ll shuffle the deck back cause it’s all shuffled if not repeat. It takes me ages to shuffle tho so cause I want the game to be random otherwise I can’t tell if the deck is good. Also cheating can actually make you lose in the funniest ways possible. .Mill could take the rigged cards of the top of your library If your deck is 30spells 30 lands and you make it land spell land spell ect o don’t think your deck is as good as you think it is, you need more spells than lands usually, so yeah that would destroy your cheating I think. I only play kitchen table with friends And I taught them to to that do so we all have that advantage ig. Whoops

[@TrulySilentLie]

I've taken to use the first strategy before shuffling as a way to make my lands unstick from each other, avoid big clumps of lands that can happen because I often use older sleeves. Of course I always do proper shuffles afterward, it's only meant to separate the lands from each other, I would never use it to actually cheat. It doesn't really work too well, and I also only really do it during draft when the deck and lands start out separated because of the deck building

[@MrLucky5001]

4:12 half and half? who plays a 30 land deck just to cheat?

[@Sicknificant1]

+Jakharr Vinta someone that wants to make a video to help solve an "imaginary problem". my biggest problem with this video is that all those "new" players he says he wants to help by showing this stuff are going to be the guys accusing others of stacking their deck in between rounds bc they saw someone mana weave after a 20 turn long game where they played 15 lands. MANA WEAVING is only cheating as a final form of shuffling. The only rule this dude needs to teach kids is 3.9 about only accepting properly shuffled decks in the first place.

[@justmagicmostly]

+Jakharr Vinta I'm curious to know why the guy who posted the video never responded to your question. That's the first thing I wondered also: Half and half!? He doesn't even address this in the video, not even for a brief second. The ratio will never be 1:1. Lands take up anywhere from 17 to 27 slots in a 60 card deck, and those are the extreme ends of the spectrum. No deck has 30 lands, which completely messes up the entire premise that the video maker gave us. I think this is very disingenuous on his part and I find it suspicious that he never answered you.

[@youdamnoob]

+juicykarkass decks only contain spells and lands. he is not referring to an actual 50% 50%. rather one stack all spells the other all lands

[@justmagicmostly]

+youdamnoob ummm, no, watch the video again. he's suggesting that a deck is 50% spells and 50% land. which is never the case.

[@youdamnoob]

He obviously plays, and even comments that the deck he is using as an example is light on lands. I think you're just nit picking. Anyone who understands what he is saying and plays magic would know no one plays 5050

[@trealosgaming3345]

What I tend to do is pile shuffle once to break up clumps. especially if my night is extremely south (Basically not summoning my standard 5 to 6 creatures a game) But after I break up the clumps I will shuffle it in a standard fashion. And after each match I tend to stick the deck right into the box and wait for the next round. Pile shuffling is only useful to me as a break up/ reset. And tends to be done after I have already buried the played cards into the deck randomly.

[@bezzo8848]

It is either useless or cheating.

[@matthewramada922]

Also, wouldn't the double nickle resist deconstruction if they just do one or two regular shuffles before you start pile shuffling it? If you're right that it needs 20 shuffles to actually randomize it again, than they should still be effectively "woven" but without giving you an easy means of demonstrating it.

[@Thesussysuscat]

When I first started playing I was taught to "mana weave " every few games to break up clumps of land and spells

[@niccosaur7778]

Every one is taught this if you say you were not you are a fucking liar

[@myrsta5764]

I remember I tried this in my first draft when I was like 12. Sorting the cards right in front of my opponent. That did not go over well.

[@ZorkIsEmo]

@@niccosaur7778 actually, i wasn't when i heard the term "mana weaving" just today, i had to click the video just to find out what it was. BUT i do feel like i would have had a more fun time playing casually with friends if we did try this (my friend who played the most had the best deck so obviously we all gang up on him alot) if we did mana weaving it might have been a more fair and FUN time against him

[@kwaddamage8286]

yeh i had no idea this would be illegal. if there arent clumps of mana that would mean it IS well shuffled

[@kwaddamage8286]

@Alexander Nock exactly. If you don't do this after a game, it is unfair in the other direction. Huge clumps of mana. That would not be random at all.

[@Darkray16]

When they present, you call a judge and say it looks like your opponent presented a stacked deck. Probably get a game loss or DQ, and there you go.

[@dedrick43]

"How to stop opponents from mana weaving." You shuffle their deck.

[@Silkanaa]

You want little shits DQed

[@thatoneguyffs]

How to get stabbed grab a strangers cards with no context.

[@osuasheuatl]

I have a degree in mathematics, and I was delighted to see this video. Probability is among the easiest subtopics for literally anyone to screw up, and a global democratization is good news, thank you.

[@j.justin1511]

This was really fantastic. I'd love to see more like this, though my comment is woefully late compared to the posting date!

[@ehallam08]

I once knew someone who was so bad, they still couldn't win after stacking.

[@26letterpublishing34]

"What IS 'random'?! ...a miserable pile of secrets!"

[@SergeiTheAnarch]

Any cheater who actually knows what they're doing will weave beforehand and faro shuffle during the game. Just get in the habit of always shuffling your opponent's deck.

[@64Northern1]

My only real complaint is the inaccuracy of "shuffle 20 times to achieve random" 7 riffle shuffles achieve a statistically random pattern in a deck of 52 cards, a near random order I believe is sufficient. So a couple overhand shuffles and 5 riffle shuffles should be sufficient regardless of the state the deck you are presented is in.

[@Iceykitsune]

Go ahead, riffle at a tournament and see how badly you get your ass beat.

[@Canadiandawg]

I just wanna say thx for all your videos . You are very well spoken and east to understand(I'm a new player) Thx. Keep it up.

[@MTGDegree]

+Suniermo Gomez Hey, glad you're enjoying them! :D

[@forbespurcell1408]

+MTG Degree I to would like to thank you, a person I play with shuffles this way...

[@androsredwolf900]

Ignore this video. It isnt cheating if you follow weaving with randomized shuffling

[@marcusager974]

I only ever really went to prerelease events on the MTG competitive scene, but I did need to learn the official event rules to some extent because I used to work for WOTC customer service. Have there been any significant changes to the rules in the last five years or so? Because I know when I learned them you were only allowed to CUT your opponent's deck; shuffling it as you suggest would be considered illegal, "cheating" even...I can even remember some controversy surrounding the "ninja cut" (taking a section of the middle of a person's deck and putting it on top rather than taking the top section and putting the bottom section on top of it), where some players thought it was illegal (it actually did follow the rules of what a player was allowed to do though). Also, what does this "mana weave cheat" entail, exactly? I almost exclusively play casual/EDH, but when I pick up my cards after a game I usually stack two nonlands on each land, slide those into the deck, then shuffle the deck normally. Is that "cheating?" And if so, what's the proper way to put your cards back after a game that isn't just scooping them up together, an act that seems like it would almost ensure manaflood/manascrew since your lands are generally kept separate from your other cards during play?

[@hellkaiserzane]

Another big issue this doesn't address is foil cards they can be manipulated in your and your opponents deck to create situations to your advantage another tactic is to watch shuffling I personally try to obscure my opponent vision of the entirety of the shuffle so it can't be tracked as a card game player for 16 years I can track a deck pretty accurately just being able to see the entirety of the shuffle.

[@russellboswell4882]

Wait, what if u purposely made it look like you where cheating so your opponent would deconstruct your shuffling back into an instant win hand that you started with. trippy.

[@blightedadmiral7006]

That’s also cheating

[@phtmkyyljoy]

unfortunately, an easy way to stop from being caught mana weaving is to just do 1 or 2 shuffles real quick after the pile shuffle, then you cant be deconstructed like this and you still pretty much keep the benefits.

[@bendiv7999]

I actually often do the 2nd version and then shuffel the deck about 10 times, and no one ever anything against it. 20 years back everybody used the 2 spells one land method and it was state of the art. I dont want my opponents to be manaflooded or manascrewed either. I dont enjoy winning against a manascrewed opponent.

[@phoxhole]

Or, you know, you could just shuffle your opponents deck like you are allowed to do and enjoy a game of Magic.

[@johnspencer7838]

MiniRegamono perfect!

[@jz5980]

That would be too much work and why play a game you might lose when you can guarantee your win via DQ. The solution I would argue isnt to DQ and suspend stack shuffling, but maybe a judge shuffle or three and then play... No free win and No stacked deck

[@Stormskip]

@@jz5980 If I were a judge and a player called me over to watch him deconstruct his opponent's deck over 5-10 minutes, and at the end of that the deck had no easily discernable pattern, I'd give the player that called me over a loss for wasting mine and his opponent's time. Maybe it's a good thing I'm not a judge.

[@BeaverMagfed]

This was awesome. I started playing in Amonkhet, and now thinking back to some tournaments, i can remember 1 person doing the double nickle.

[@Fr0z0rz]

That's funny, I always did this years back when I played and pretty much anyone I know does this and shuffles the fuck outta it, and lets their opponent shuffle. Even at tournaments this was not a problem, never thought of it as cheating. Interesting video, wouldn't have seen that otherwise!

[@CodeProvider]

cheats like these make one really realize that lands are the worst thing about MTG. People are cheating just to be able to cast their spells on time. Cheating to be able to play cards. This isn't some Humphry shit, this is just cheating to be able to play the game. kinda sad : (

[@gamingmachine82]

+Code Provider you play mtg i see you one price videos

[@cocoachrispies]

+Code Provider I agree. Personally, I wish MTG would follow some other games solutions. The game Force of Will keeps the mana deck and spells deck completely separate. Then your leader can put the top card of your mana deck into play as a mana for turn. I don't really care for FoW, but I do wish MtG implemented something similar to this.

[@FusterIsBased]

+Code Provider The thing is that a cost system is one of the core reasons Magic ends up being the great game it is. Look at Yugioh: There's no cost system for anything (paying life or sacrificing doesn't count IMO), and instead of a cost system, they just limit your plays. Magic has no limits to the number of creatures on the field or spells you can cast, the only limit is how much mana you have to pay for all that. I'm not saying lands are perfect, far from it, but I'm saying that having this as a cost system is better than not having a cost system at all.

[@necromorph5371]

+cocoachrispies no... that would be horible

[@kinamart9663]

+cocoachrispies you do realize, the reason other CCG's do not have the exact same rules as magic or any other ccg is it would be a blatant copyright infringement. There are different ccg's to appeal to a wide variety of different people. if you really hate the land cost system of Magic the Gathering, there are a ton of ccg's that do not have it you can play instead. But to basically say MTG is the best ccg game because of its complexity or whatever but you want to land cost system removed instead of playing a different ccg then you do not realize a huge part of magic is that land cost system, sure sometimes everyone gets unlucky, and if you are getting land screwed or flooded the majority of your games you are building decks wrong or not shuffling well to begin with, or refuse to mulligan. I honestly can not think of every getting land screwed or flooded more then 5% of my games, and most of the LGS I go to tourny's I do not get either one once in the 4 or 5 rounds, all it takes is putting in the proper ratio of land to non lands and a decent curve of low mid and high cost spells, and sufficient shuffling, think what you see on twitch during gp's and pro tours, riffle or mash shuffling a lot not the 5-10 times many feel is enough at fnm and such. 20+ times should completely randomize your deck from your previous match no matter how deep you got. no its not slow play its sufficiently randomizing your deck. do this I would be willing to bet you rarely get land screwed or flooded, learn to properly mulligan and it will happen even less. Wanting MTG to implement FOW rules to change the game from its land system is basically making MTG FOW, which if as you said you do not really care for FOW if MTG had very similar rules it would have very similar game play to a game you do not care for, why would you want that? If you truly hate the land system of MTG play one of the many games without it, FOW, Hearthstone, Yu-gi-oh etc etc...

[@meoka2368]

I personally do the mana/land separate from the rest, then do a stacked kind of spread, just because I tend to play longer games (or with a new deck). Short games doesn't matter. BUT if I do end up doing that, it's just to break up the block of mana quicker, and then proceed to shuffle it a few times (like 10ish) afterwards and let my opponent shuffle as well if they wish.

[@ralphsunico]

MTG needs a shuffling machine for tournaments.

[@bflandragon90]

How are they going to do that with sleeves on?

[@untitled6087]

People will _not_ put their cards in that, too dangerous.

[@DRKLCNS1]

or people could just shuffle reasonably

[@ParadoxicalThird]

@@untitled6087 wotc/dci could compel you to do so under threat of permanent suspension. If the choice is between doing as told or not playing, 99% of players will listen to the authority.

[@CM-lb9ud]

If it is legacy or vintage no they wouldn't. Are the tournament organizers or Wizards going to have an insurance policy in the event their machine malfunctions and destroys $20k?

[@pacattack2586]

Interesting question: what if someone shuffles this way WITHOUT mana-sorting first - I use a similar technique (minus sorting beforehand) and like you said it results in very keep-able hands?

[@somerandomguy246]

The only issue I see with the last method is, like you mentioned, that the player could do the mana weaving/pile shuffle and then just riffle shuffle 7 times or so and the deck would randomized, but still in that player's favor, and because it's technically random now there's no way to prove that he was cheating. It's kind of like someone using magic dice that only works 70% of the time while 7's will come up more often the fact that you not ONLY rolling 7's dissuades a lot of suspicion.

[@BadSincero]

Only thing I learned from this is that, don't shuffle ur deck

[@thatoneguyffs]

Which is a trash idea I see people do that and get nothing butt mana and mulligan until they have 3 card start and get rolled over.

[@jeffjohnson4083]

As a new player, I’d just like to say, I’ve always 5 pile shuffled and had no idea it could be used in a negative way until watching this video. For me it’s just how my friends taught me to shuffle because I’m super OCD and bending the cards shuffling normally hurts my soul

[@loki3156]

I do wonder about the idea that assuming the person is cheating just for the way they shuffle is honestly the right way to go.. it could be completely innocent and that's just the way they shuffle.. but that's just my two cents, or in this case two nickles

[@TheGemoChamp]

I think we should call that technique "The Nickleback"

[@shmergulflargamish7686]

That's great, haha.

[@tygonmaster]

I prefer to call it the "Nirvana" because people that do it should put a gun in their mouth.

[@Aellef]

How did this not get more traction!?

[@elijahrosenberg625]

Dude that’s honestly great

[@legoboy-ox2kx]

I will sometimes do this once to my deck after putting everything together neatly to make randomizing it easier, but I always shuffle well before games.

[@3ftninja132]

Mana Weaving sounds like an actual card name :D

[@briancooley8777]

It does sound cool

[@wisnoskij]

This seems stupid. Like you say yourself, it is pretty much impossible to truly randomize a deck with normal amounts of shuffling. It would take a lot of effort for someone to bring a random deck to a match, or to properly randomize it while at the match. I don't see why someone would so blatantly cheat when they can just shuffle the deck a few times and likely end up with just as good a result. Basically, my take away from this is that every magic player is either granting them selves a large advantage by starting out a good order pre-shuffle; Or they are screwing themselves by starting out with the cards grouped my type or some other unplayable sorting and incorrectly thinking that a shuffle will magically fix the deck and make it playable.

[@jakubfabisiak9810]

It's one of those things you "learn" as a new player. When we were kids, we "learned" to play 20 lands in our 60-card decks. And then, we "learned" to mix them up "2 cards, 1 land" before shuffling, to "prevent" getting all lands, or no lands. And we felt clever about it, too. All our kitchen table games (mind you, we were about 12 years old at the time) started with this little ritual of mana weaving our decks to make sure our lands weren't all clumped together after a game. Many years later, I still ran into new players (kids, all of them), who would do this, without even being aware that this was cheating, until I demonstrated it by doing a 3-pile shuffle, and handing him back the deck, with a reminder that the rules say, he's only allowed to cut the deck, not shuffle it again before playing. To his credit, he understood that this wasn't a good way of randomizing your deck.

[@nathanredmond4305]

Nice video I liked it. Everyone's saying it's too long but it gave a good explanation... Subscribed

[@MTGDegree]

+Nathan Redmond Glad you liked it :D

[@zachary14241]

+Nathan Redmond I remember when I started playing magic and I used didn't know that this was cheating someone pointed it out to me and I felt super bad. In long games I would have like 10+ lands out and I was never the best shuffler so I would try and make it to my lands weren't clumped.

[@nathanredmond4305]

+Zachary Cooper hey I mean as long as you aren't intentionally cheating I guess it's okay. At the time you obviously weren't aware that it was a big deal, but that's okay it's just a card game. It just becomes a big deal when people start intentionally cheating and stacking their decks at higher more competitive levels.

[@xXCerberusAirsoftXx]

Mana weaving a deck after assembly is perfectly legal and encouraged as long as you shuffle for a good 2 minutes prior to a match, mana weaving before a match and not shuffling is unfair to your opponents

[@Ninjamanhammer]

You don't need to mana weave after deck assembly, after 15 mash shuffles the deck is randomized no matter what order it was in when you started.

[@NitrousDragon]

Thanks, MTG Degree for the video. If I've separated my deck to rebalance it or something, I'll kind of "mana weave" my lands in so they aren't clumped, but also will do a, semi random, 3 pile split then combine them randomly and do around 4-5 shuffles... All before a game to which I'll not just take my deck out and play, I'll shuffle at least 3 times (more if we're chatting or they are still preparing) and obviously let my opponent cut however they wish. Like I said, that is if I had separated my deck, normally I'll shuffle 4-6 times, and sometimes throw in my 3 pile split in between shuffles. I'm not particularly fast at shuffling, especially with sleeves, and my cards clump when I shuffle. (about 5 cards in a row from each side, but usually more)

[@bezzo8848]

NitrousDragon 3 mass shuffles is not enough. Pile shuffling is not a shuffle. You are cheating.

[@NitrousDragon]

@@bezzo8848 (just wanna say in the few days since commenting, I've added more shuffles and am taking more steps to make it more random) "at least 3", usually it's a casual game anyway, and they have been ready and waiting for me for about four minutes. Sometimes I'll lose count of how many times I've actually shuffled so I'll do 3-4 on top of what I forgot (I'd guess around 7-10 in total since I took out my deck to play), also remember I've done at least 6 different since I last adjusted my deck. I still have to take Mulligans, and will take risks on hands that don't look very good, that I hope pan out, sometimes they do, but I never know. But you know what, let's say you're right, my win rate is only like 55-60% of the time, which makes me a pretty bad "cheater".

[@bezzo8848]

NitrousDragon You are stacking your deck to gain an advantage. That is cheating.

[@joshuahurdle239]

I don't play tournaments but the rules do officially say that mana weaving * two cards then land* is perfectly fine as long as you throughly shuffle afterwards. If you'd rather get your opponent dqd then beat them then you don't deserve to play tournaments. My only issue is people that think it's OK to mana weave and then not shuffle. Turning the cards over so you can't see them doesn't count

[@TheCoolSquare]

The point isn't getting people DQ's because you don't want to play, it's to get the cheaters out so they don't ruin it for anyone else.

[@joshuahurdle239]

If someone actually is cheating then that is one thing but mana weaving in itself isn't cheating as long as the person shuffles after doing so. Now if someone is trying to get specific cards together like trying to put a swap beside a dark rit that's a different story

[@TheCoolSquare]

@@joshuahurdle239 this video is literally taking about people who do just that

[@Dafastso]

one of the first rules of magic is that you get to shuffle your opponents deck to your satisfaction after they already shuffled so as to assure you of its random quality.

[@thomasmcdermott2962]

Weaving solution: Shuffle your deck at the start of the game like a normal person. Hell, even comply with requests that your opponent has as far as your method. Let them shuffle for you. Weaving does one important thing that normal shuffling does not- it stops each game from being a partial repeat of the last. I think it says a lot that in preconstructed deck games my younger sister and I play (where no weaving occurs,) I always manage to get Llanowar Elves and Chandra: Bold Pyromancer lumped awfully close together, and she always gets Niambi: Faith Healer and Teferi's Sentinel out as early as they can be played. Shuffling the field straight into your deck keeps those cards together, and can often lead to situations where you're playing the same opening few turns over and over again, even though you think you're shuffling properly. A proper weave usually sees those individual parts randomized more thoroughly, as there is not as much of a time crunch, so you're willing to separate them further out. While it's certainly true that leaving the deck unshuffled is outright cheating, weaving as a way to keep each game unique ought to be encouraged. ....Besides, if your opponent really shows up, asking to play without shuffling, are you really going to trust that? By all means, get them DQ'ed.

[@rustyanvile]

I do mana weaving occasionally to counter the fact that I keep all my lands together when I play, because of this when I scoop my cards the lands get clumped together. I always shuffle after this though so that the deck is infact randomized. I think that this is fair and actually helps the clumping of cards not impact my future games.

[@zenowyvern167]

Me and allot of my group did this just to level the playing field when we where playing. Had no idea it was considered cheating.

[@blightedadmiral7006]

If you’re all aware of it, it’s fine. (And not competitive)

[@BiGMaCSuperSized11]

Hey MTG Degree! Been a huge fan of your videos and this one is a very sneaky method to hose your opponent who you weren't going to play anyway. Thank you for this new found education.

[@CrimsonFox36]

and, also, mathematically speaking, you need only bridge shuffle a deck 7 times to achieve true randomness. NOT 20.

[@daisyxcutter]

That is not the case here. Because the deck is not random or simply ordered, but put into a pattern of distribution you have to shuffle until you have sufficiently undone the distribution pattern which would actually require far more shuffles than usual.

[@CrimsonFox36]

it's math. a brand new deck of playing cards will be completely randomized after 7 bridges.

[@daisyxcutter]

Crimson Vulpes This is a 60 card deck, not a 52 card deck. While the difference seems small, mathematically it is enormous.

[@CrimsonFox36]

DuSundavarFreohr alright then, i just tested it. WOW! i got mana screwed. Sufficient randomization in just 7 bridges! BOOM! argument destroyed!

[@CrimsonFox36]

MrTetris88 what?

[@JohnMarat]

I'd call the judge on you for stacking my deck if you choose the pile shuffle options. Good luck explaining yourself to the judge and you better have something better than "I think he manaweaved"

[@VirtualGnome]

"Pile shuffling does not increase randomness. It simply changes the order of the cards" Any judge worth his salt knows that. If your opponent is able to sort your cards out into perfect piles of lands and spells through one or two pile shuffles. Thats a DQ from Me. Not just from having decent mana every turn. But also the chances that the entire deck is stacked so that you have your 1st turn, 2nd, 3rd and so forth set up perfectly. Newer players definitely need to be on the lookout. Cheaters able to pull this off are ~1/300 so every high player count tournament will have a handful of cheaters to deal with. They know how to spot newer players and know what to get away with. When the offender is pulling excuses out of his ass and arguing with a judge, thats all the clarification I need.

[@charsquatch600]

I'm looking forward to pile shuffling in front of my opponents and getting them banned for doing this for 20 minutes when nothing is wrong. I do this from a random state

[@jamogreeno8578]

"In 1992, Bayer and Diaconis showed that after seven random riffle shuffles of a deck of 52 cards every configuration is nearly equally likely " I understand Magic decks have 60+ cards and that not every card is represented in quadruplicate, but where did you come up with the idea that it would take 20 shuffles to randomize any deck?

[@Trueflights]

No one is going to let you rifle shuffle their deck without flipping the table on you. Most people have hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars invested in their decks. No sane player would even consider doing that to someone elses deck let alone allowing someone to do it to theirs.

[@jeffdawson7841]

@@jamham69 Lol loser

[@Deoxippus]

I believe the author of that paper later stated that the number was significantly higher if you shuffled the way most humans do. The original shuffle required that you make two randomly sized piles, and rifle shuffle without maintaining a constant rate. Most humans will use two nearly even piles (How would you pick a randomly sized pile anyway?), and the rates that you allow each pile to enter the combined pile will vary, but probably not very much. I think controlling for how a typical human shuffles made the number quite a bit higher. There is a Numberphile video on it. However, you then also have to realize rifle shuffling can get...expensive in some formats.

[@jamham69]

@@jeffdawson7841 What's the matter, scrub? your desperate lack of pimp tech got you down?

[@andrewturnbull5297]

I play Legacy and Modern, if my opponent's deck is 50% land I'll happily mana weave it for them 😂

[@remyscreepycorner5135]

Thank you for posting this, this was incredibly helpful and hilarious.

[@slimjim7411]

Do what I do when they hand me their deck. I spread the cards all over the table like they're mayo on a sandwich, and then stack them all back up chaotically and completely at random. People go to such great lengths at setting up their decks to favor strongs hands, etc. Which isn't hard if you understand shuffling, and cutting mechanics. This in 1 swoop totally randomizes their deck, and I've had people just about go into convulsions upon doing this to them. These power players unwilling to actually play with a truly random deck usually mulligan, and then quit. They might try to play but with all their power combo's scattered to the winds they're forced into a true game of magic where monsters beat face, and the occasional spell blasts something.

[@tennoskoom9282]

If you did that in a casual game, I would probably stop the game right there. If you did that in an official game, I would call the judge since that's potentially damaging the card and downright disrespectful.

[@Pinfeldorf]

ALWAYS shuffle your opponent's deck. ALWAYS.

[@bradensorensen966]

Not enough to counter a Mana weave.

[@KrowdesAlexander]

Okay... I know I'm extremely "late to the game", as far as the comments go, but this does explain a lot of how I had so much trouble years ago. This actually cleared up a lot of my confusion from past incidents, so Thank you for that.

[@pastorchucktalks5108]

Was listening to a mathematician who said the standard shuffle requires only 7 times for optimal randomness.

[@I.am.Khor.0]

This is for Riffle Shuffles. But you don't riffle shuffle an expensive deck.

[@stevegriffin2036]

Haha clown

[@Deoxippus]

For rifle shuffles with particular mathematical qualities. If you are a human, the estimate is quite a bit higher. If you don't rifle, probably higher, though I am not sure. 60 cards instead of 52, probably also higher.

[@XSanctusMalumX]

Now the devil in me gave me an idea...fix your deck before then make it look like you're mana weaving at the table then when your opponent undoes the fake weave they're really resetting the real weave...

[@robertf5289]

LOL, that's just so insane that it'd work!

[@alpha0090]

Except when your opponent doesn't really care and your screwed lol

[@elijahrosenberg625]

Until they don’t care or don’t spot it. Then you’re just screwed.

[@Featuresyou]

recently started getting back into magic and was looking into good ways to shuffle when you came through the second pile shuffle and talked about deconstructing I had an OOOHHHHH moment that was amazing lol this is great dude good job on this one.

[@GuardianSoldier]

I don't mana-weave or cheat, but sometimes I do wish there was a new format that played with 2 decks. One with spells and one with mana. Then each time you draw, you decide which one you want to draw from. There's some kinks that would need to be worked out and playtested, but it could a popular format. Commander radically changed the way the game was played it was wildly popular. Nobody enjoys sitting and waiting to die all game.

[@sxp290]

I know it's not the same thing, but have you seen the new Bakugan TCG? Any card you draw can be used as mana, and there isn't color specific mana nor cards that are specifically mana only cards.

[@charleslauricella156]

This! My friend and i tried seperate libraries, one spells and the other land. we had some great games

[@charleslauricella156]

Comrade Duel Masters used to have any card be able to be a resource i believe but there were colors

[@therawkhawk64]

This reminds me of a smaller and less popular TCG called Force of Will. You have two decks, one with your spells, and another that are spell stones. You get one spell stone per turn, and thus slowly build up your mana. It does follow the five colors, though some decks work around this. The game itself is fun, and some of my friends and I have theorized whether or not it'd be viable in MtG.

[@natanoj16]

This was the video that made me subscribe ^^

[@MTGDegree]

+Jonatan S Hahaha, I didn't know this video was so forceful! But I'm glad it made you subscribe :)

[@natanoj16]

MTG Degree I think that it for many is because of how relevant it is for all magic players ^^ For me it was the detailed explanations ^^

[@alecoreilly1456]

I honestly didn't even know this was against the rules. Suprised that nobody has ever called me out on it, because I'm blatant as fuck about it.

[@ultimasys]

I had no idea this was cheating! The way I shuffle is I do the first method, and then shuffle normally. is that still cheating?

[@MTGDegree]

+Theo Warlok You have to shuffle very thoroughly after piling, to make your deck random once again.

[@DannyV117]

+Theo Warlok I often shuffle with the first method when making a new deck so I don't have to count my lands, but you always have to remember to shuffle well before playing.

[@ultimasys]

MTG Degree thanks!

[@tek4wiseman]

+Theo Warlok Here is an official statement on some of this, including mana weaving which is perfectly fine as long as you shuffle sufficiently afterwards. archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20060707a

[@ultimasys]

Dustin Wiseman thanks.

[@gentlevader]

Just shuffle your opponents deck.

[@johnspencer7838]

gentlevader that simple

[@TheschwartzB]

No, because all that will happen is he will mulligan and possibly only lose the first game in the match. If you are able to expose a cheater, then he won't be able to play at whatever location you are at whatsoever. That, to me, is a much better outcome than only making him have to shuffle his deck legitimately. Why would you want to play with a cheater?

[@deffteapot]

@@TheschwartzB Because by shuffling the deck legitimately, you're not facing a cheater anymore. And you can actually play the game and have fun. Isn't that what it is all about?

[@Skylos]

Then the cheater is not punished, will continue to use the same method, and then in future games they will win over people who do not know about this method because they were cheating.

[@nurox3127]

@@deffteapot if someone is trying to cheat, they are not trying to play the game to have fun. While I get it, I'd much rather play against people who don't try to cheat.

[@IsshTM]

I would argue that having both players do that second trick will just make the game better. It is no fun for either player when one of them is land blocked or flooded.

[@deadNdivine12]

The more I watch the more I realize I was probably duped more than once during fnm.. Hmm. Okay.

[@TheBreadedCatt]

how is this cheating? i have been doing this for five years. Before I enter an FNM or tournament. I do two spells and a land or just make 3 piles. Then shuffle and offer my opponent if they would like to shuffle. No cheating there. I usually get decent or bad hands anyway. still use the same method. If you suspect someone is cheating. shufe their deck and pile shuffle. then take two or three off the top and put it on the bottom.

[@TheBreadedCatt]

it sounds like you just want everyone to have a hand they must mulli or a hand that will start the game in your favor. just mash shuffle or Use your own form of shuffling.

[@BlackTearDrop]

+Richard R Late reply but whatever: Mana weaving like you describe is not cheating. As you and your opponent properly shuffle the deck afterwards. In this presentation, it's stated that the cheaters would only pile shuffle or only shuffle in a controlled manner to maintain the pattern- which is against the rules.

[@MTGDegree]

+BlackTearDrop It seems I didn't stress that enough, there's a lot of confusion in the comments :p

[@Zorgdub]

When I learned to play, I was told that you put 1 land and 2 spells and repeat to make your deck. Then you shuffle normally. So you can get mana-flooded or mana-screwed, but it's less likely. It took over 15 years before I learned that you're not supposed to sort your cards before shuffling.

[@Bouillestfu]

I didn't even know that mana weaving was cheating. Heck, my buddies and I do it all the time to prevent mana screw ups. The game feels more fun when everyone's deck plays just fine and doesn't brick half way through a game.

[@tygonmaster]

In friendly games, that is fine (as long as everyone knows it is happening). Do it at a tournament and I will see to it that you never go to a tournament again in your miserable life.

[@numbbane]

Truthfully it's whats the purpose of the game. If it's to have fun. By all means it's not fun devastating an opponent who never got a single land. If the purpose is to win by all means necessary and not give two shits about and opponent and who there are sure go by 100% rules in your favor and see to it you get them banned.

[@tygonmaster]

numb bane It is about fairness. You cheat, you deserve to be kicked out, publically shamed, and banned from all future events. That is fair. Play by the rules or be punished. If you want to cheat, take it somewhere where you are not actively harming the gameplay of others. People like you have no fucking morals.

[@numbbane]

tygonmaster no fucking morals? Dude I leave for fort Jackson tomorrow you can fuck off if you think I don't have morals. And yes I believe in fairness too and I wouldn't consider it fair to demolish the daylights out of the opponent and say I'm a better player because they got screwed on land. I don't cheat and I certainly don't condone it. But you might want to check your damn self before you say I don't have morals

[@tygonmaster]

numb bane I judge a man by his words and your words show you lack morals if you condone this behavior. You seem to be flip-flopping. First, you say you believe in fairness, but then you do not want to play by the rules? Wow. So, you have no integrity either and your words are lies. I hope they whip you into a man/woman at that fort because currently you lack any sense of morals at all. Which is it? Do you agree in playing by the rules or are you a cheater because it seems to be like you are a cheating, moraless pig.

[@tcgoober]

honestly I never realized that weaving was actually cheating.

[@taylorroarkpayton]

I’m genuinely curious how you didn’t know that?

[@lucestrasz2312]

I don't go to events, but I mana weave what was played last game loosely; I'll space lands roughly equally between non-lands. I then shuffle that into the deck, then proceed to continue shuffling. If I feel the deck is more stacked than that, such as after a major deck build or long game, I'll pile in a few different ways (one simple way is similar to solitaire), then keep shuffling as I start a pass of when I pick up a pile to start condensing. Also shuffled and presented after I pick up the entire deck.

[@Roxas_DM]

Just shuffle their deck. Problem solved.

[@bradensorensen966]

He even mentions in the video how that doesn't randomize a Mana weaved deck sufficiently.

[@DakonBlackblade2]

@@bradensorensen966 Of course it does, shuffle like 10 times and its randomized, there's no statistical explanation to why shuffling a lot wouldn't randomize any sort of pattern. Also doing what he suggests in the video is not a fix, it is cheating, as you know you are putting all your opponent's lands in the bottom of his deck, does it intentionally and gain an advantage you shouldn't have.

[@android19willpwn]

@@DakonBlackblade2 it's not cheating whatsoever. You're not making their deck any more or less random than it already was. As for why shuffling wouldn't randomize any sort of pattern, it's because shuffling isn't just taking each card and assigning it a new random spot in the deck. That's not really something you can do unless you fully deconstruct their deck and then randomly re-stack it. Any actually usable shuffling method is going to be working with the deck already presented to you. It does a good enough job of making sure you've got different cards at the top and specific cards don't come in the exact same order. But if your opponent cares about the types of cards being in a given pattern or distribution, each shuffle will only disrupt that by a little, just due to the physicality of how shuffling works. You could just shuffle their deck over and over again, but then if they're not cheating you've wasted a lot of time and if they are cheating then you get a fair game. Whereas doing this if they're not cheating you've wasted a lot of time but if they *are* cheating then you get them disqualified. Much better RoI.

[@DakonBlackblade2]

@@android19willpwn You are knowingly taking an unfair advantage, how is it not cheating it is the definition of cheating. Its only very hard to prove you knew what you were doing, which makes it a very good cheat, but if any judge ever proves you knew you left your opponent with no lands you get a DQ. Just because it is a "counter cheat" does not make it any less of a severe rules offense. What you should do in this situation is call a judge and have him make your opponent properly randomize his deck, give him a warning, a match loss, a DQ or whatever. What you definitely should not do is use the situation to get an advantage yourself (aka cheat). Also shuffling does unmake patterns, if you get a fully unshuffled deck of playing cards (in perfect sequential and suit order) and shuffle it 7 times (I might be wrong in the number but there is one) its properly randomized. It makes 0 sense saying that shuffling does not unmake patterns, that's exactly what it does. The only way it doesn't is if you shuffle by picking huge chunks of cards and just moving it side to side instead of properly shuffling.

[@android19willpwn]

@@DakonBlackblade2 The definition of cheating is doing something that's against the rules. This manner of shuffling your opponent's deck is not against the rules, as it results in no unfair advantage in a rule-following deck and thus is a sanctioned action in a tournament setting. The only reason an unfair advantage is created is because the deck was already outside of the rules. You're making the claim that people who are cheating should get special protection by the rules, and that certain actions which are normally legal should be made illegal when you opponent is cheating in order to protect the efficacy of their cheat. That's simply absurd from a proscriptive standpoint and inaccurate from a descriptive one. Additionally, this video is explicitly suggesting that you do this for the purposes of making the cheat obvious to a called judge. It's not suggesting that you simply hand them back their deck once it's completely unbalanced. It would be totally within your rights to do that as you had done nothing against the rules to cause it, but it's not the recommended course of action. As for shuffling, is does unmake patterns. Absolutely. Eventually. It's simply a question of how long it takes for sufficient randomness to be introduced to sufficiently unmake a given pattern. Seven is the standard for not having any significant advantage at guessing the next specific card in a standard 52-card deck, but we're not talking about specific cards here. For manaweaving, there are really only two kinds of card in the deck, and there are a lot of copies of each. The purpose is to manipulate how evenly those two card types are spread out, so the margin for error is much larger.

[@Based_Goddd]

Is it alright that whenever I make a new deck, I mana weave once and from there on out I just shuffle like normal. I do it to start me off at home, not actually at a fnm or whatever.

[@Based_Goddd]

Maybe it isn't weaving, I just put the lands on top and everything on bottom and pile shuffle 2 times with 5 piles. This is only once at home.

[@igNights77]

+Peril Ailj That's weird, me and my friends have always had a tacit agreement that you mana weave each time, then shuffle a lot. We never considered it cheating.

[@giroppa99]

every deck has been mana weawed at least once during each deckbuilding and testing, just To see the mana curve and similars, but that's irrelevant, since It only makes your draws better if you pile shuffle few times: if you normal shuffle It won't make any reasonable difference

[@Evil_Chronic]

+giroppa99 you'll get mana clumps if you just shuffle without spreading the lands out. That's how I've always felt. It's why I normally distribute my deck after any game where I fetched lands more the 3 times. Even if you shuffle "enough" you can still get problems.

[@giroppa99]

chronic291 never happened to me, but maybe i shuffle a bit to much and in various ways

[@bennood2031]

My mana weave is as follows, I tend to play generally the following land/spell ratio for most decks is 2 spells, 1 mana. 3/1/2/1/1/1 (spell/land alternating) then 2/2/1/1/2/1. (spell/land/spell/land/spell/land). Single shuffle for slight randomization. If ratio is not perfect, then insert lands/spells randomly. If you do any of those shuffles, you'll help me out ultimately, as it increases my odds of a good distribution, regardless of the stack.

[@Trevorious2010]

what if you double penny, triple nickel, quad quarter, quintuple 100 dollar bill?!!!

[@MTGDegree]

+Trevor Daniels Then you've probably gone to time in the round without drawing an opening hand :)

[@tristanyokom1542]

Then you draw Exodia and win.

[@jeremiahpohl3596]

What do you think about the idea of..not so much mana weaving as you described it. But somewhat evenly spacing mana throughout a deck when its first constructed? (Such as at a prerelease event)