How to Suffer Well: Sympathetic Characterization in Madoka and Magical Girl Site

[@SuperLlama42]

Madoka Magica is 12 episodes of Kyubey going "Humans are all selfish there's no such thing as true selflessness" and in the last 15 minutes Madoka goes "Hold my beer."

[@frankwest5388]

SuperLlama42 not quite. She does do the selfless thing for selfish reasons. She has been established as someone who enjoys to mentally help people and she wanted to relive homura from her endless cycle of failing to save madoka. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t heroic it just means that she had a slightly selfish reason to go the right thing. You know, like a real person. It reminds me of why my father went and why I tried to become physicians. We just enjoy fixing people.

[@cesarvera2198]

SuperLlama42 wait isn’t she 14

[@ToastyMozart]

@@cesarvera2198 After all the shit she goes through, I'd say the 14-year-old is entitled to a few stiff drinks.

[@110000116699]

SuperLlama42 she wasn't selfless it made her happy to help others therefore not selfless

[@Shtoops]

@@110000116699 And it didn't even make Homura happy. In fact it just made Homura's 12 years of misery even worse. Wow, Homura's suffering is kinda ridiculous. Sayaka, Mami, Kyoko, Madoka are all understandable, but Homura has been watching everyone she cares about die over and over again for nearly half of the time shes been alive. I'd say it's incomprehensible. However she's portrayed in a way that you don't feel alienated by the sheer scale of her pain.

[@NotAGoodUsername360]

"Hope is necessary for despair to have any impact" ...wait, when did we go from Edgy Magical Girls to Danganronpa?

[@andreweeb0331]

Make Your Argument

[@plume539]

e x a c t l y

[@pantadaddy3883]

Y E S

[@3kibawashi341]

YES. YEEEEEEEEEEEEEESHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[@RuJakSuwen]

@@pantadaddy3883 is that an danganronpa ahegao if so

[@angrybidoof847]

"If anyone ever tells me it’s a mistake to have hope, well then, I’ll just tell them they’re wrong. And I’ll keep telling them till they believe. No matter how many times it takes.”

[@daisygacha435]

Sounds like something Nagito Komaeda would say

[@pastorTracy911]

Daisy Gacha -no it’s Madoka-

[@carso1500]

"if anyone tells me it's a mistake to have hope well then i'll just tell them that they are stupid... Like seriously who hurt you, it's not healthy to think like that you fucking idiots" Madoka, probably

[@dianak8656]

All good but if talking doesn't work consider something else

[@konniekon525]

👁👄👁 Sounds like something a particular magical girl would say but insert madoko

[@庫倫亞利克]

Crappy tragedy: Bad things are flung at my protagonist with no reason. Good tragedy: My protagonist's suffering stems largely from their own decisions, and although the environment does factor into them behaving in a certain way, it's ultimately them who call the shots. See: both Sayaka Miki and Anakin Skywalker.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@-ZH]

@@diamondminer5459 Yeah, but did you really need to spam it on every comment tho?

[@Zulf85]

Sayaka annoys me souch though lmao. I get that she's a teenager, but her wish and everything else makes me want to bang my head against a wall.to this day

[@rhaeasoul8531]

Yeah madoka, Danganronpa, etc all did misery better by starting out nice and seeing the characters before dropping everything on them to make them miserable.

[@DeadlyBlaze]

Also how every legendary tragedy in history was written, like Macbeth or Faust.

[@Just_One_0]

In my opinion, the saddest scene in the entire Madoka Magika series is the first time Sayaka becomes a magical girl in Homura's flashback because it causes Mami and Madoka to do the worst thing those characters can do, kill each other.

[@stonefree7973]

Don't you mean when she becomes a witch?

[@lugoorstar]

@@stonefree7973 she became a witch in the flashback, the first time anyone of them would kill what's their friends soul corrupted by despair.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@michalsoukup1021]

Mami actually killed Kyoko while binding Homura. That alone says volumes of her tactical acumen. She bound the person most likely to preempt her from striking, then went for the person most likely to strike her back, and the only mistake she made was that she underestimated Madoka. Frankly put the Seires main timeline Madoka into that scene and it would have worked out.

[@madelinewright5739]

What episode was this?

[@Hayseus712]

I'll do ya one better: Madoka Magica doesn't just HAVE hope in it, it is a story primarily ABOUT hope. And in setting out to tell this story, the writers didn't just make bad stuff happen and then good stuff happen to show "hey, see, it gets better!" Nor did they craft a story that was dark just for the sake of being dark/torture porn. Rather, they created a canvas by crafting a setting where there was not only little hope, but the laws of the universe themselves dictate that despair and hopelessness are inevitable realities in the same vein as gravity and thermodynamics. This setting gave them the perfect backdrop to tell an impactful story about hope, as Madoka's ascension to "hope goddess" was the ultimate climactic resolution to the despair the world was predicated on. It shows us that the best way to tell a story about hope is to tell it in a context where there is none. And most importantly, if these middle school girls can rewrite the literal laws of reality to make the world a better place... what's stopping us from overcoming our own sorrows?

[@leohino9211]

Wow. You just gave me a new perspective and I respect you for it.

[@game.surveyors2728]

@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 rebellion is just a result of Homura and Madoka's wishes. Their wishes crash each other so it is a must ending

[@monkeylord2090]

Rebellion is what makes Madoka truly genius. Without it, Madoka is just a good anime. But Rebellion is something else entirely. Well, the problem is that its utterly impossible to understand Rebellion if you never experienced the soul-crushing void of existential nihilism yourself. Words are simply not enough to describe how glorious it is. Rebellions ending is the same thing as "2001 - a space Odysee", it is an expression of longing, of a thirst that we feel. But if you have never experienced it, then it is like explaining color to a blind person.

[@Shtoops]

@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 Alexandre Martins a couple flaws I'd like to point out: 1) Madoka doesn't save the world. She saves a few pubescent girls from turning into witches and instead takes them into heaven. In fact, not only does she not save the world, she actively harms it. Granted, the incubators seem to think that they don't have trillions of years before the heat death of the universe, but she's still making it so they can't delay that indefinitely. We may not like it, but Incubator isn't technically evil. He's just a jerk because we don't want to see adolescent girls cry. 2) Madoka is not just about hope. It's about BOTH hope and despair. As Sayaka said, they balance each other out. It's true that it delivers a message of hope, but it's not without caveats. There's no perfect happy endings, and I think that separates it from other magical girl shows. Even with all the effort and love and dedication put in, even with all that hope, the world isn't beautiful and happy. There are always struggles, and they will never end. 3) I think you have something of a flawed comprehension of Rebellion. They quite clearly stated that the reason Homura hasn't been taken away is because of the isolation field the incubators placed her and her soul gem in. They've essentially paused time as it was about to turn to a grief seed. Frozen it just before the point the law of cycles would take her away. And to continue on briefly with rebellion, I realize it is contentious, but logically, Homura did do the "right" thing. She was correct in thinking that incubators would continue messing around until they could interfere with Madoka. The only way for her to prevent that would be to change something. Additionally, it is consistent with her wish to want to save Madoka from the life of a magical girl. She was not satisfied with Madoka becoming a goddess. And that makes sense. Her goal was to keep Madoka alive. And she failed in her 12 year mission. What she did is both selfish and selfless. It's selfless because she both protects Madoka and the other magical girls as well as allowing them to live normal, happy lives, and it is selfish because she is fulfilling her own wish and bringing Madoka back down to earth with her. It very well encapsulates love. An emotion that is simultaneously selfless and selfish. Also, the entropy bulli got molested so how can you say no to that?

[@raq619]

@@Shtoops About your first point, I'd say that Madoka *did* manage to save the world. She crafted the the wish in such a way that prevented her own world-destroying witch from ever happening, thus saving the world. In a way, she saved the world from herself.

[@DrRiku]

That whole scene where you improvised, i didn't understand a fucking word that was said. i loved it anyway tho

[@mayatunes]

Captions are up! Hope that helps

[@venor2612]

We all do

[@Shtoops]

His rendition of Decretum is incredible

[@nafinapkin5439]

I will pay for the whole anime dubbed like that now

[@The_TermiGator]

i want to see more stuff re-enacted in that style, like a new format of abridged series 🤣

[@ginncide]

an interesting thing about madoka is that the suffering is in a large part caused because none of the girls are honest about what they wished for (sayaka wished for her crush's health, when really she wanted to be with him, homura wished for the ability to rewind time but really wanted to save madoka, etc), making them even more relatable in that respect. like, yeah none of us have been in those situations, but i think anyone can understand the choices they made and why

[@funyarinpa9464]

I'd say it's just a bit deeper than that. It's not that they aren't honest, it's that they have multiple wishes that overlap in some sense. Sayaka really does want for Kyosuke's hand to recover, but she also wants to be with him and she also wants to be a good person. I think her wish can only be fully understood if we accept Sayaka's intent on being a good person as a bit performative: no one is ever completely good, everyone has flaws. Sayaka is very probably aware of her own flaws and wants to be a hero not only to save people, but also to boost her own self-esteem. She wants to see herself as a hero. And that plays a small role in how she perceives her own wish. The way I see it, Sayaka made her wish because she wanted to be a good person that protects people, because she wanted Kyosuke to be happy and because she loved him. And of course, bringing three different feelings into one singular wish is going to create some internal conflict, since she can't have everything she wants. The same applies to Homura. She wants Madoka to be safe, but she also wants to be admired (by Madoka), which explains the specific way she explained her wish ("I want to save Madoka, instead of being saved by her" or something like that). She's actually really similar to Sayaka, because I'm sure she also let some of her insecurities get to her. She probably wanted to be stronger in order to feel less lame or more capable, since she didn't really have any talent. This is a theme that Madoka touches on as well during her struggle to come up with a wish. Ultimately, there are a few similarities between all the characters and the way they see their wishes or their abilities. And I don't think this is a coincidence, I think it's very much deliberate. This is because Madoka Magica is, at least partially, a commentary on how human desire works. Humanity is multifaceted, and so every wish is going to be a reflection of that. We want things in more than one way, for more than one reason. Wishes can't be straightforward, and trying to force them into one specific narrative will only lead to self-deception and, ultimately, disappointment. The only way to prevent this is to embrace every part of ourselves, including our selfishness.

[@takke9830]

I always read this about sayaka that she supposedly regretted her wish wich to me isn‘t true at all. And the show goes to lengths to show that as well. Sayaka made her wish because she thought it was her duty as a girl to self sacrifice for others. And the more she got into a nichtmare situation the more she began to doubt herself and her own choices. That‘s true ofc. But she never regretted her wish. She said that multiple times in the show too. Be it when she confronted kyoko or as she talked to madoka at the end of the show. Sayaka is such a complex character and I feel that many ppl read her way too simply. She‘s probably spent her whole life being told that the noble thing to do for a girl is to endlessly self sacrifice. And she internalized that. One could argue it‘s the same for kyoko, who actually did regret her wish and said so in the show, and also madoka herself. Who literally sacrificed herself in the end. I think the show is about autonomy really. What destroys sayaka is that she felt like she had no other choice but to self sacrifice. And only when she chose to accept her wish, she became content. That‘s kind of her character arc in the show. So I feel like the fact that ppl paint her as this hero wannabe who made a bad decition and regretted it is a dishonest reading imo. I mean the show deliberately put in a scene where Hitomi gives her a chance to confess before she does. And sayaka refuses because she‘s ashamed of what she became. And specifically of what happened to her body. Sayaka didn‘t lose the guy. She felt like she didn‘t deserve him because of what she became. That is miles different.

[@EtamirTheDemiDeer]

“We feel for Sayaka We make MEMES of Sayaka” ... Truly the pinnacle of existence

[@mlgproplayer2915]

True.

[@rubiepie]

Few years later *insert hand joke*

[@puellamagiholyquintet]

Mami*

[@999lazerman]

She just wanted to help, but kept getting screwed by reality in return😭😭

[@NariNon]

Yup-

[@sobersaber494]

I like the bit where he said "we FEEEL for Sayaka Miki. We make MEEEEMES out of Sayaka Miki"

[@rainierdanredondo1278]

Rule 34 (alt): If something exists, there are probably memes about it.

[@PiercingSight]

This video sums up something I've been teaching my writing students: If you want to make your reader/viewer sad for your character, you must first give your character something to hope for, and then crush that hope. Without something to hope for, crushing hope isn't sad. The reason that deaths are sad in stories is NOT because of the death itself, but because whether consciously or not, we know that there was so much potential in their future for them to accomplish new things and interact with the other characters in positive ways. We hoped for that potential with the character, and that potential was taken from everyone who hoped for it, permanently. That contrast is what makes it sad.

[@tcrpgfan]

When they die in the story is also very important, especially if death is a major theme within the narrative. Take Aerith from FFVII, where her death (Which definitely qualifies as a heroic sacrifice), is beyond a shadow of a doubt, the CENTRAL scene of the story, without it, nothing about its themes really works or if it does it isn't as easy to highlight them. Especially when a lot of characters do talk about people dying and returning to the planet the story is set on and rejoin the lifestream. But more importantly, the story made it a point that this character had made connections, and with her death, now there's a huge hole in the group she left behind. On top of that... Aerith's death is the halfway point in the narrative. Meaning that those events are allowed to stew in the audiences' minds and they are going to have to process her being gone. Which is actually quite real since lots of people go through that with recently deceased loved ones every day.

[@nicholasleclerc1583]

Oh, and I could also add that, to crush hopes permanently, you don't really need death; especially if there's resurrection in your story, right ?

[@hackidreemurr]

Good to know 😊👍

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@analogbrayn]

A good example of this is actually in Berserk. Everyone knows the infamous Eclipse, but it's not just the mega-levels of gore, nightmare fuel, and r*pe scene that make it so memorable. It's the fact that the Eclipse marked the end of The Golden Age. Everything the main character had grown to love over the last arc had been ripped away. Violently. Unfairly. And by his own best friend. So many futures cut short, and both Guts and Casca's lives are changed forever as the only survivors. THAT. Is how you do despair. What made Berserk's Eclipse so good was the buildup. Every chapter where Guts laughed and smiled with his comrades made the inevitable more and more heartwrenching.

[@tumbke]

I just realized that everything you said could be directly applied to 13 reasons why lmao

[@exilley2134]

Tumbke EXACTLY

[@toxicnytro9657]

what i was thinking lmao

[@beingmegucaissuffering.5326]

I appreciate that acapella version of Decretum far more than I actually should.

[@jadeuwu9860]

same lol

[@fatimareyes2410]

Being meguca is suffering. Same

[@edi9892]

As someone that grew up in a dysfunctional family and got bullied in school, I have to say that I don´t care about her. She´s a not well written character. If someone suffers this much, she would have at least some marks from prior suicide attempts, or she would have changed personality wise to adapt to the hostile environment. She didn´t yearn for revenge, she didn´t emotionally shut down, nor go crazy. That´s not how real humans work... Still, I do get why they were fighting: they wanted to go out in a bang and make sure that their enemies won´t harm anyone else.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@analogbrayn]

Honestly, I feel like the story would have worked if it was about her struggles with wanting revenge now that she has this power, or being a truly good person and not killing with it. Like after she kills the bullies she runs off and has an inner war with herself. She killed a person. Took their life away and any chances they had of a future. And yet it felt so right. She had destroyed someone cruel and evil. Someone who had made her feel so horrible. But it was wrong. But it was right. And it can just keep building from there as her eyes start to open to the cruelty around her. Maybe she escapes the cruelty she faces eventually, only to find the world is just as cruel and her struggles escalate.

[@ohno7345]

An interesting thing is, in the Manga? The rape & mutilation didn’t actually happen! Asagiri blew them away with her magic gun stick and they died there. So this means that the producers decided to make it MORE tragic and MORE traumatic. Ew.

[@nowayuanimewhen2096]

It was attempted rape only in both anime and manga

[@rhaeasoul8531]

It did happen in both but in obvious anime outcome it’s stopped before it happens.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@user-ur4rh2go7c]

@@rhaeasoul8531 the rape didn't happen in the manga or anime.

[@rhaeasoul8531]

In both versions it was attempted but stopped like any non hentai series.

[@Cobalt360Degrees]

Sad Girl Hoedown was A+ Please never stop the musical recaps, they're so much better than the actual scenes.

[@MelonTartVA]

I'd love to see him do a hoedown for the entire episode..... after nearly throwing up from that piece of disgusting anime, that hoedown was something I needed

[@risematsumoto8432]

Where can I get that song on iTunes

[@hackidreemurr]

If that anime was a musical, I will seriously watch it 😂

[@fyremocha2619]

your singing cleared my pores, watered my crops, and cured my bronchitis. may the lord Madoka bless you.

[@123youbia]

*_meguca_*

[@bruhmachine4987]

Top comment

[@hiruyabebaw807]

"he poisoned our water supply, burned our crops and delivered a plague unto our houses" good ending

[@blackrosesthorn9451]

I'm quite a fan of the dark magical girl genre. So imagine my disappointment when I hear we're getting a new one and it turns out to be nothing but edgy torture porn. I agree with you on near everything said in this video. Though I'll admit the notion that suffering HAS to be the fault of the character to matter seems a bit shaky. I think it's a good thing to keep in mind, but not a golden rule of writing that must be followed. After all, sometimes bad things just happen. That said, everything else was spot on. Not only though was Magical Girl Site happy to throw edge into the mix because that's what angsty teens have decided makes a good story, but sometimes it's just... like take for instance the first time we see her being beaten by her brother. The scene is framed in a titillating manner. The camera angels are revealing and sexy, the underwear she's wearing (the underwear she's ONLY wearing) is purposely cute and provocative. We're supposed to be disgusted and angered by that scene but instead I'm just uncomfortable because I'm watching what appears to be fan service except instead of cute, happy girls in swimsuits I'm getting a tortured child getting beaten so hard she vomits. That's less of a writing problem and more of an art/directing problem though. As far as writing goes, as you explained, it wasn't great. But not only did I find the overwhelming edge terrible, but the characters are flat. They're nothing but plot devices that fit into one of two categories. A) Characters who are there to make the protagonist happier and B) characters to make us wonder why she hasn't just killed herself yet. The only characters who aren't completely boring are Yastumura and Kiyoharu. The former only being a little less flat than everyone else, and with a genuinely sweet and touching relationship with Aya and the latter for being an actually sweet, relatively realistic trans girl. Anime doesn't really do transgendered characters often, and when they do they still aren't actually because the anime brands them as traps or drag queens. (Not to say there's anything wrong with being a trap or a drag queen) but Kiyo is just like any other girl though, only she just so happens to be trans. One of the best parts of the anime imo. I really enjoyed your take on Madoka Magica though. Madoka is one of my favorite anime and it makes me glad to see someone who can really appreciate the writing and characterization that went into it.

[@IkaMusume813]

This is so elegantly written. I'm gonna print it out and tape it to my wall. All jokes aside though I had problems with this anime since I heard about it. When I was watching the torture scene with her brother I felt gross and disgusted. For some reason I pushed on and continued watching it and I seriously got so pissed off at the main character's blonde friend. Specifically at the part where she went crazy about revenge. Like no you're not the fucking batman you're just as bad as the brother. Goddamn Magical Girl Raising Project was better than this because while Raising Project was as edgy as Future Dairy it at least had some sort of hope at the end. God I wish I could erase Site from my brain cells.

[@blackrosesthorn9451]

@Bowsette Torture porn is a genre/umbrella term for like... the type of content which makes up a good 80% of this anime. Its not literal pornography involving torture. Ex: The Saw franchise and Human Centipede would be considered torture porn. They aren't porn. But they'd be considered torture porn as in the genre. Unless of course you're saying that Magical Girl Site had no torture porn in the way I meant it in which case... I like... reeeeally disagree?? Literally the entire first episode is nothing but beating the shit out of Aya.

[@MetaKnight964]

How exactly is Aya sweet? Also it's he, not she.

[@aliena28898]

Could you tell me any other good "Dark magical girl" apart from Madoka? Madoka and Magical Girl Site are the only one I have seen.

[@blackrosesthorn9451]

@@aliena28898 Yuuki Yuuna is a hero. People are under the misconception that its just a Madoka ripoff, and while there are LOTS of similarities, calling it a ripoff isn't fair. Flipflappers is really really good. Not entirely magical girl but it definitely has magical girl elements. Princess Tutu is well known. And Magical Girl Raising Project is alright if you don't mind the violence. There are others, but those definitely come to mind.

[@firstnamelastname4331]

God, Sayakas I'm so stupid line hits me so hard, even when it's him quoting her. so tragic.

[@danielbricker9041]

Poor Sayaka

[@Eerie0Innocence]

Personal opinion: I always found this surge of “dark magical girl” shows rather confusing cuz I’ve always thought that magical girl shows (the really good ones) always had dark elements to them. We have stories like Princess Tutu where fairy tale characters have to wrestle against their tragic fates made by a manic writer. We have works like Utena, made by people that worked on the Sailor Moon anime, taking their ideas they had for that show and making their own subversion while embracing certain magical girl conventions. Even Sailor Moon has somewhat dark moments, which maybe people don’t think about as much since the protagonist literally saves the day with the power of love each time. The first arc has a scene where Sailor Moon has to fight her love interest, whom she kills and kills herself in the process. Regardless of how it ends, that’s still pretty heavy. Naoko Takeuchi has said that the original ending for Sailor Moon was supposed to be a tragedy, but it changed due to popularity and pressure from editors. Madoka Magica didn’t do much that hasn’t been seen in other magical girl shows. It just took what was known to the genre and expanded on it. But it seems like all that got taken away from Madoka was that it was some sort of new, *edgy* type of magical girl show, and that people could make “dark magical girl” which come off as either torture porn or edgy fantasy dramas wearing a magical girl skin suit. This newer show, Magical Girl Site, looks to be from the same creator as Magical Girl Apocalypse (Mahou Shoujo of the End), and both seem to suffer the same problems as echoed in this video. There is no hope. And yet it’s that hope with the despair and darkness in not just Madoka, but Utena, Tutu, and Sailor Moon that made those stories carry on long after they’ve finished airing.

[@timothymclean]

The thing about media trends is that they* take obvious surface elements from popular media and try to copy them, in an attempt to recapture the deeper elements that made them work. The obvious surface elements of classic mahou shoujo include a light tone; the obvious surface elements of Madoka include darkness and despair. Never mind that classic mahou shoujo have some edge, or that Madoka is _about_ the value of hope even in an uncaring world. *By which I mean "most works following the trend," obviously. Some authors will recognize the deeper elements and try to copy those, but they're almost as rare as authors who can create trends in the first place.

[@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her]

I think part of what made Madoka hit hard was the lead-up and initial advertising. The creator, Gen Urobuchi, was notorious for making dark stories. He was nicknamed "Urobutcher". Then he indicated he was making a lighthearted story about magical girls. People were poised to see if it'd be a change from his usual dark tones. And the advertising made that seem true; the original trailers were nothing but cuteness and ribbons and rainbows and fluff~! And even the opening went heavy on the sugar. So people thought that's it, he's hung up his butcher's knife, wow! ....And then things got real. So you gotta take into context the experience and expectations of the audience, and how the show got a running start before impact. THAT is what likely spawned this rash of more OVERTLY Dark Edgy Magical Girls. Despite what you point out, that all those shows did have darkness to them, they now had the inkling that "usually Magical Girl stories are MOSTLY lighthearted... well we'll subvert that by having people see "Magical Girl" in the title or theme, assume it's cutesy, but then make it DAAAARK!!!!!11" Except, yeah, hope and daily lives were essential to ALL those shows, to make the dark parts feel all the more intense. Madoka did the same, though it wove darker fabric into all of its reality. The other thing it did that made it hit so hard, was how it deconstructed the genre itself. How it's like "See all those other Magical Girl stories? Sailor Moon, Utena, Princess Tutu, etc? They're all pawns of the Incubators." It made people look at the whole genre in an entirely new way. Which yeah, the copycats only took with them the impact, the dread and shock value... while losing sight of the fact that Madoka was STILL a formulaic Magical Girl series, complete with hope and optimism and love alongside the despair and darkness. They forsake the formula in favor of attempting face-value subversion. "Cute genre, but HORROR!" Something like that. Losing sight of the depth itself, and the fact that they can't recreate what Madoka did because it was all about the lore. .......I better hit Reply cuz I'm getting sleepy and my mind is wandering, I hope I made my points in there somewhere, LOL. ^^;;

[@serenitii3557]

dark scenes in original magical girl shows worked and had impact because it was in between the cutesy tropes. just stuffing a magical girl series with dark plot after dark plot just desensitises the audience and creates a boring and flat show

[@tsukihotaru8421]

Idc if I'm 7 months late preach yo PREACH I can never forget the scene were I think it was...Pluto? Was saved from her own damnation and sailor moon gave her a chance to be reborn. Or that moment when we had an awkwardly long romantic lesbian scene between Haruka and the other girl Uranus? As Haruka embarks on a life threatening quest and says possibly her last goodbyes?

[@TheLuckySpades]

This reminds me of the turn to the dark that comics took after the 80s, after getting somewhat more freedome to explore darker settings writers like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Frank Miller (before losing his mind) explored the darker side with works like Watchmen, Sandman and Dark Knight But then in the 90s people took the dark and edgy and forgot the self reflection, the setup, the underlying hope

[@ntm4]

Holy shit that cipher at the end was quality! Hot damn!

[@DeRM0907]

I preferred the first song

[@Ruritsu]

Shit was lowkey pretty lyrically talented. BATTLE ME THO BITCH

[@jasmin-fy3ld]

nice improvisation of that one madoka scene! the voice acting was on point and the background music was so good 10/10

[@Arrakiz666]

It says something about how great Madoka is that I can watch that and still get shivers down my spine.

[@Asehpe]

Yes! An a capella version of Decretum while you read her part with a helium-affected voice. That is something I really needed to hear. Like Arrakiz666, I couldn't stop getting shivers down my spine and a little tear in one eye, but I was also laughing my ass off at the same time. Well done!

[@JustSriCh]

I want him to do the whole series like this.

[@JMObyx]

That Little Witch Academia pic though. XD

[@angeldude101]

Madoka may be lighter than Site in practically every way, but... Asagiri couldn't bring herself to commit suicide? Homura actually does... _at least 3 times,_ in Rebellion. First she shot herself in the head, then she orchestrated her own execution by guillotine, and lastly the classic of jumping of a cliff. Even Sayaka gets in on the juicy Rebellion suicide action by stabbing herself through the heart. Sure they all eventually walked away (we don't know if Homura walked away from the last one, but she's nigh-omnipotent at that point and _has wings_ so it's probably a safe assumption), but I still find it impressive just how much dang suicide imagery they were able to cram into Rebellion in between the _everything else._

[@CryptP]

don't forget the series too -the woman who jumps off a building under the influence of a witch and is caught by mami -hitomi trying to kill herself, madoka, and a bunch of other people via homemade chlorine gas -Mami in one of the fucked timelines actually murdering Kyoko with the intention to also kill Homura, Madoka, and herself in all of these cases, the person actually goes through with their action or tries to and is stopped like madoka never shied away from this shit

[@angeldude101]

@@CryptP Not mentioned is Kyouko's father burning down his entire church and family before hanging himself. Nor is Madoka's wish which could be seen as a glorified suicide by removing herself from the world. The spin-offs, specially Magia Record since I'm most familiar with it, are where things get _really_ spicy. In that game you have... 1) A suicide attempt that gets thwarted by the contract made offhandedly right before jumping. 2) A contract made _in freefall_ after regretting the suicide attempt, only to later go for round two which also gets thwarted, this time by a wild lesbian. 3) A wish specifically made to remove oneself from the human world with no other effects solely for the sake of not existing. 4) A rumor that effectively removes oneself from the world temporarily, and to access it you must first jump off the tallest building in the city.

[@MokohiChan]

@@angeldude101 Not a suicide, but MagiReco also has one in the untranslated second half that has THIS effed up story: Girl being bullied for being a loner is caught in a school shooting. The shooter demands a hostage to keep the police from taking him down and the class chooses her. In a spur of hatred, she Wishes that ONLY she would saved. The shooter shoots everyone dead in front of her and then kills himself. She has such severe PTSD and guilt over this impulsive wish that she is selectively mute.

[@angeldude101]

@@MokohiChan I was aware of Sudachi and what her wish was, but not the details. That's kinda f***ed up, on the part of just about every single character involved.

[@MokohiChan]

@@angeldude101 Yeah, I think that's the darkest I've ever seen MagiReco go. The first half of the main story was relatively tame compared to Madoka Magica, so I was definitely not expecting how dark some of the side stories and Arc 2's story go.

[@nopenopity-nope6621]

As a huge Puella Magi fan I was gonna mock you for forgetting Hitomi’s name, but I forgot it too. Amazing editing brah

[@luminous.iolite]

i thought her name was midori or hitomi 💀💀

[@biecie]

So basically it's 20 minutes of stomping a bag full of kittens that just won't die and keep crying out in pain? Welp, that's another one to the blacklist of edgy things to avoid.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@biecie]

@@diamondminer5459 I'm sorry but the moment rape is brought up my intrest in that media takes a nosedive. Very rarely if ever will I continue with it. It's just one of those things I can never truly be okay with. Also if what I think your saying is the case I still wouldn't like it. The thing is, if I don't like the beginning, middle, or end enough I won't like the overall. Even if this had the happiest ending of all time with great build up that wouldn't matter to me because the fucked up and I'm left with a bitter aftertaste that dulls my intrest to anything that it may have done. That's just me though, and I may be super bias on that point and not have gotten my point across clearly because I can't always express myself too well. You can like it and that's that, I won't tell you not to. I personally just don't want anything to do with it.

[@diamondminer5459]

@@biecie Look, I get it. I personally think rape can potentially be well-implemented into a story, potentially enhancing it. What’s not cool is, for instance, when it’s used as shorthand for “see! Look how evil this guy is! Only the evilest of people would rape a poor defenseless girl!!!”. This approach robs the victim of any personhood, literally objectifying her. I also get that episode 1 of MGS was too much for some people, and rape is where many draw the line (actually, that may be why it’s proliferated as a plot device for so long). This series is a huge mixed bag in terms of what it does well and poorly.

[@alexcat6685]

@@biecie I can get getting Icked by it mainly, But deciding the story does nothing with it is the wrong the choice though Becasue of a commonality of not actually trying to tackle that subject meaningfully because it's too hard or too offesive ironically(to a general audience in theory) so it's either exgurated to the point of losing it's impact or barely explored leading to this unreasable reaction. The mere use of it shouldn't be the issue it should be how it's used that makes it what it is, you should be icked when the story refuses to do anything intersting with it, reducing down to just something that happened that is more than that.

[@phyrexian_dude4645]

So in short: 1. too much edge on the back story makes everything falls of the cliff. 2. there must be contrast between edgy and hope. 3. in a world where everything is edgy, no one cares about it and there is no point changing it. 4. if the audience knows that the end will be edgy then the journey to find happiness won't matter. Also, as a side note, Hitomi did nothing wrong. She gave a heads up to Sayaka and she gave her the chance to confess, we can't blame her for not knowing about alien contracts, zombification and shit.

[@shoukokomi6419]

Truth. Girl gave her love rival a heads up out of respecc for her being the first one to be crushing on the guy. If theories are to be believed, she was pretty devastated at Sayaka's funeral.

[@ToastyMozart]

Yeah Hitomi totally tried to do right by Sayaka and follow the metaphorical bro-code. 24 hours was perhaps a bit short in terms of deadlines, but given how all the other girls were jonesing for that violinist's dick I can't blame her for wanting to move quickly. She couldn't have known that Sayaka was dealing with a litchdom-induced identity crisis, she was doing what as far as anyone could say was the right thing. And that lack of malice just makes the whole thing all the more tragic, it would have been FAR less impactful if they took the Site route and just made Hitomi a scheming bitch who'd backstab her "friend" to get a guy.

[@ScaryMason]

Phyrexiandude as Batman v Superman had the same problem. It’s like the movie highlights that both heroes are wrong and the world is a dumpster fire.

[@Animedagger33]

Phyrexiandude as you could also argue that Hitomi gave Sayaka a deadline that she knew she wouldn’t be able to go through with. It’s not very friendly to force someone to confess their feelings to someone by threatening to steal them away for yourself.

[@IrvineTheHunter]

This can be seen a lot in Berserk too, Guts get abused, raped, and is suicidal but it defines him, his relation with success (he's a great warrior), love, and friendship. Him clashing with Griffith and worlds fall all happen only when Guts is given sufficient hope and success and like Madoka pit's big world consequences against individual happiness.

[@hoppangbot]

"a reason to care. a reason to believe the world can get better" >shows pics of ochako VALID!!!!!!!!

[@tiffany-chan1235]

Same!!

[@katrinaerskine4657]

The world needs hope *Picture of Deku*

[@DefRevenge24601]

The way I see it is this: Madoka=the MOTHER series, probably MOTHER 3. Deep, Dark, Dank, but with awesome characterization, fleshed out world, and a bunch of funny bits. Magical Girl Site=(Insert crappypasta with infinite darkness, hyperrealistic blud, and a uber-grotesque monster that tortures it's victims in hilariously overcomplicated and greusome ways)

[@marinanicole5693]

So MGS is basically Earthbound halloween hack

[@tarvoc746]

@@marinanicole5693 So does that mean we're gonna get a Magical Girl Undertale eventually?

[@marinanicole5693]

@@tarvoc746 yes

[@vagabondart9999]

If they actually just named it "Creepypasta the anime" i think it would've been way better.

[@viviantan1034]

Speaking of creepypasta, it reminds me of a horribly-written pasta that has gotten popular to this day.

[@kylereece5511]

“And even Kyubey wants to save the damn universe!” ...Maybe.

[@TheScorpion0081]

It does... just not the people in it. Kinda like PETA.

[@twilight_phantom2969]

@@TheScorpion0081 except significantly less evil

[@TaigiTWeseFormosanDiplomat]

They got the wrong theory although they can achieve any dream in all the ways!

[@DY2727]

@@twilight_phantom2969 Kyubey is a hero compared to PETA

[@juliagoodwin9510]

We don't trust Bunnycat. Because Bunnycat's a dick.

[@GippyHappy]

Also think it’s worth mentioning that “I was suicidal, but now I have friends” isn’t a great message because the audience at home may be suicidal with _no_ friends, which gives them a feeling of helplessness. They don’t necessarily have control over something like that and therefore cannot take any meaningful lesson away from the story, other than “how dare nobody be my friend” or “woe is me, I have nary a friend to be found. I guess I don’t have any reason to live after all.” Sayaka, on the other hand, DID have friends, but that wasn’t the solution to her problems. Her battle was internal, not external.

[@german-americanmapping6766]

...And people who are suicidal *with* friends then think "Oh, there's no saving me. I must be especially hopeless."

[@writer747]

This is a trap that a lot of edgy stories often fall into. I have a friend that wrote a story that it's core reminded me of how this is going, and what you said is accurate: if we don't care about the world or the people and what happens if you fail, why do we care about anything? People, even if they're taking time to read/watch something, have to basically be convinced to care about characters beyond the fact that they're sinking time to interact with the story. If you start out a series with so many awful and painful story beats, and the story itself shows that it's not likely to abandon that heavy/dark atmosphere, you WILL fail to create a story most people will enjoy. "If it's this bad at the start, how much worse is it going to get later?" Even if you're watching a series with the premise of it being horrific, dark, etc. ultimately, the viewer/reader wants the potential for a good ending. It's just how we are most of the time. The idea of an edgy, dark, painful story might appeal to a goth, depressed, self-depreciating person, but good luck with the other 99% of your potential readers/viewers

[@justanotherpoweraddict7918]

Writer A good tragedy highlights the tragedy by showing you glimpses of a happily ever after that could have been. A world of darkness by itself is infinitely less disheartening than the loss of the single thread of light within it. What you said is true. Two fundamental themes that run in many good tragedies are: the loss of hope leading to despair, and the very humanity in the actions that brought about that outcome. If a story is all depressing and edgy for the sake of it, it just does not resonate.

[@Rokakiyoshi]

So wait than what about Beserk? Thats all about dark and edgy

[@writer747]

Berserk does have a lot of dark stuff all the time, but it's still does have moments of genuine levity. Also, the kinds of dark in berserk are different from the kinds here. You can really tell by the quality of writing in regards to the 'edgy' stuff. One displays it as "oh no! it's so awful that this is happening! feel bad for me!" while the other goes more for a "this is a messed up and evil world as a whole for everyone, but I can deal with most of it." Monsters like Griffith are infinitely darker than a lot of this stuff, but it's a more mature dark, rather than pure angst and edge.

[@Zwiebel4]

It's grimdark and everything that is wrong with this genre. See "Terrible Writing Advice - Grimdark" for a humoristic view on the genre.

[@eattheasslikeitsgrass5113]

Writer Most these Grimdark settings solely rely on shock factor things like murder, rape, abuse, corruption etc. to tell their story but don't grasp why these things are so shocking and horrible to us. In our society we know there is always a happier outcome then this and that these things aren't bound to happen and when they do, we feel sad and depressed, even more when we are the cause of them. And from this it AFFECTS who we are, how we think, how interact, and how we act. This is why well-written dark stories and characters work. Instead of having a balance between positive and negative outcomes, Grimdark only relies on us the audience to make the connection to why what they are showing us is bad. They don't tell us why this can and did happen in the story and why the characters feel justified in doing these terrible things to let us understand how the world works or let us know how it IMPACTS the victim. It's edgefests like these that we laugh at because of the unrealistic characters doing stupid and unexplained things. Zwiebel4 Ah, another follower of the anti-love triangle man I see.

[@PanAndScanBuddy]

Asagiri gains magical powers and doesn't have enough power to stop the parade of horror? What's...the point?

[@iamhungey12345]

They started to fight against that in the manga, have been predicting that she'll become an admin one day.

[@ErebosGR]

Like Homura that doesn't have enough power to stop Walpurgis Night?

[@aliena28898]

But Homura causes Madoka to ultimately become a godlike magical girl and stop Walpurgis, therefore Homura indirectly has that power.

[@aliena28898]

Being meguca is suffering. That's the point :v

[@animeotaku307]

I guess it could work for a Lovecraftian horror story. Powerlessness and insignificance are central to such stories. But I don't get the sense that this is supposed to be one.

[@SupermewX300]

Is it bad that I'm on the verge of tears after that Sayaka scene, even with Bryant's fantastic voice acting?

[@greatdetectivefurudoerika1589]

I think you mean BECAUSE of Bryant's voice acting.

[@Asehpe]

No. I was the same. But curiously his acting made me laugh at the same time. Have you ever felt like crying and laughing at the same time? Weird feeling.

[@Vale-fd4pk]

pff

[@Asehpe]

bof...

[@deltathedummy2303]

SupermewX300 I'm a chick but damn sayaka is hot

[@EliasEthernet]

YES. I read the first volume of Magical Girl Site about the time I finished Madoka Magica, and I put a lot of thought into why it is that I don't like Magical Girl Site as much as Madoka, and I came to the conclusion that its because in Madoka Magica, there's hope. Even when it gets really bleak, you have that hope that the characters will win, and even if the end is bittersweet, that it's the best outcome for the most people, and the anime isn't just sad, its really touching. Magical girl site is just too grim, there is no light at the end of the tunnel for these characters, and I can't help but think that any end they have will be nothing but bitter.

[@assbitchfuck6927]

Rhubarb Pie as the manga Progressive it becomes more about hope if I was to compared to any series it be more higurashi when they cry series with the mystery and the Pursuit for hope and a solution

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@OtakuAudioRedux]

@@diamondminer5459 Would you say it's similar to Goblin Slayer in that regard?

[@vanessalipnica9563]

I have to admit with a magic system where using your power literally takes away your life span it's really crazy the girls aren't more hesitant to use their powers or plan things out more. Yeah, their middle schoolers but still, that one scene where they introduce all the side magical girls and they show off their powers made my mouth drop. "This is probs gonna shave a month off my life, but we're all going to look really cool!"

[@Bluecho4]

There's a reason TV Tropes has a page for Darkness Induced Audience Apathy. A series that cannot establish the value of the setting and characters, and the _possibility_ of a good ending, is one that has failed to give audiences a reason to care. Why should they care? If the setting is full of assholes and cardboard protagonists with no agency in their suffering, the audience will WANT the whole place wiped clean by Armageddon. It would be the only satisfying conclusion, and only marginally so.

[@Bluecho4]

Come to think of it, even Doki Doki Literature Club did its horror and despair better than Magical Girl Site. After all, players spent several in-game days with the titular Literature Club, doing fun things and having romance stuff, before the game drove the mood off a cliff. You were made to genuinely care about the Doki Dokis, so the horrific things happening to them is made all the more moving.

[@RuJakSuwen]

Agreed.

[@andrewludi2934]

Well said

[@josegodoy6745]

Yeah, also known as "Too Bleak, Stopped Caring"

[@Arata987]

For me doesn't look like the author tried to "make Asagiri into a new Madoka and failed", is more like tried to "make Asagiri into a new Guts and failed miserable". Because the Magical Girl Site seems to try bilding a world closer to the Berserk world than the Madoka Magica one.

[@theshinypeliper8813]

I don't think anyone has succeeded at making a new Guts. Or at least making a character as good as him

[@BknMoonStudios]

The thing that worked for Guts, besides being a badass from the start and only becoming cooler as the series went on (which Asagiri never did), is that both him and Griffith embody the main conflict/theme of the series: finding a purpose in life and fighting for what you believe in despite overwhelming odds. The world of Berserk is filled with despair and suffering, and yet there are things worth fighting for, whether it's protecting those you care about, inspiring hope in others or rebuilding the world from scratch. _What exactly does Asagiri represent?_ In fact, let me ask a better question: _What is the purpose of Magical Girl Site?_ 'Cause as far as I can tell, it is to "be torture porn with cute girls". We already have tons films like that (and I personally hate all of them, but that's just my opinion). A protagonist doesn't need to be a total badass or embody a complex philosophical dilemma, but it has to have *_something_* going for him or her.

[@animeotaku307]

@@BknMoonStudios Right. It still comes back to what Explanation Point said about Madoka; at the end of the day, you need a protagonist that the audience can invest in, not just sympathize with. While Guts and Madoka are very different characters, both still are more than their trauma.

[@sirhellsing]

BrokenMoonStudios I think I can sum that up with; a main character that has a firm conviction, that’s the start of making a good story (doesn’t have to be at the start). That’s what I see in general from series I like in anime/manga with serious plot

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@andromeda_va39]

One of the central themes of Madoka Magica is the balance between hope and despair. For all the hope a magical girl wishes for someone, she herself must suffer an equal amount of despair. This is reflected in the writing. There's a lot of despair, but there's enough hope to balance it out, especially at the end. A lot of dark magical girl shows miss that and go too far on the despair side. They miss the point of what made Madoka great. It's not the darkness. It's the balance between light and dark.

[@kyokoro_p]

Site's entire plot revolves around the concept of "The world is going to get destroyed and that's bad, isn't it? We have to stop it I guess". Some girls have actual motivations (revenge), but the rest seem to tag along for the sake of it. Sure, Aya learns resolve and to live up her fallen comrades' desires, and her resolve becomes key in the final conflict, but yeah, I agree their world didn't need saving.

[@user-rd7jv4du1w]

Magical Girl Site is too edgy for me imo, the edgy scenes in episode 1 came out of nowhere and felt more shock value than actually relating to the plot

[@helllss9571]

picake I mean I guess they went a little far, but it all lead up to a plot point in her using her magical stick thingy. I wouldn’t call it pure shock value but it’s still pretty edgy. I personally enjoyed MGS a whole lot more than Madoka but that’s just me. If you really look at it from a certain perspective, people complain too much if a character isn’t relatable, and it’s also a literal supernatural anime, it has magic and all kinds of shit, you can’t just say, oh her character isn’t that realistic. But eh, people have their tastes I guess.

[@stonefree7973]

@@helllss9571 I- Why?

[@helllss9571]

Star Platinum I’m weird :p

[@hackidreemurr]

Like Happy Tree Friends

[@FBIchan]

watched it in july, skipped first episode, saw later manga pages and i basically know the whole series except sept. watched madoka magica, 9 episodes then got lazy and went into understanding rebellion because i hate watching anime really(magical girl site was ran **fast**). can confirm mgs is 72% torture porn(hey it had fanservice in the 28%!), can confirm pmhm was more about building up to dark ideals was 8% torture porn, more about messing with your head than anything and was pretty unique. love both and always will and it's sad that pmhm(yes, hm, change my mind) >>>>>>>>>> mgs in popularity. would love for it to be greater or equal to for my ayapi, proof goes to this being the first comment i saw talking about site.

[@dracocrusher]

I feel like all of these hyper dark shows can be summed up by two major problems: First, as mentioned in this video, is that you need lighter moments to give darker points meaning. If it's all grimdark all the time then it's just boring because we need highs and lows to give eachother context and make the story work. Second, though, is probably just as big of a problem of it's fine to have a character that's not likable, but there should be some traits in your main characters that people actually like to see. Even if you don't root for Light, you can admire his ability to plan things out and his determination towards this goal. Even if you don't care about Sayaka's relationship, you can appreciate that she wants to help someone else because it's an admirable trait. Even if you're not a fan of seeing Gutts get hurt, you can get behind him trying to do the right thing by defeating these monsters. There are direct reasons to care and things to enjoy from these people to keep the audience invested. And then you look at this and it's like (note I haven't actually watched this series) "This character wants to kill herself, feel bad for her" without really giving people any reason to really want to get behind them as much as just seeing them try to not get more hurt. It's about the same result as showing the audience a puppy and just kicking it. You feel bad for the puppy, but you don't exactly want to root for it, you just want to see it avoid pain, and character-wise that's a HUGE world of difference on how invested people are going to be.

[@edmg7]

Your puppy kicking analogy is surprisingly good. If I saw someone kick a puppy I wouldn't be filled with feelings of wanting the puppy to triumph, I'd be filled with feelings of wanting the kicker to be punished. So if I were watching a series where the main character is abused by the world, I'd want to see a story where the world is punished. Maybe make a magical girl series where the girl starts using her powers to terrorize the world, slowly building up whether she will see the error of her ways and stop or give in and slowly destroy the world as vigilante punishment even if she'll die with the world. That's a much more compelling story given the setup.

[@dracocrusher]

Lol, a magical girl series where the magical girl is just like "People are really selfish, I want to be a terrorist!" and then they just go around magically bombing places but they've still got the cute outfit and the heart shaped attacks and stuff. Yeah, I'd watch the heck out of that. Thinking about it, that weirdly sounds kind-of close to the feel of The Saga of Tanya the Evil, where you've got this little girl who hates god and despises how her past incarnation died so she just joins the evil empire and starts taking it out on the good guys by mowing them down while relying on all these dirty tricks and stuff along the way. It's just like "Screw letting innocents evacuate, we need to take this factory by surprise by just blasting them from outside their altitude limit!"

[@ToastyMozart]

@@dracocrusher ExPoint's description of her *does* paint her as the sort of person who might go on a (fairly well-justified) rampage once the power balance shifted courtesy of magical girl stuff. I could see her myriad abusers looking down the barrel of a sparkly magic gun in relatively short order. Wasn't there some Nanoha character like that, who snaps and stomps the shit out of their schoolyard bullies after things get too far?

[@naten1570]

Except that Tanya is just a sociopath taking the path of least resistance to success, not trying to punish the world or anything. She may have a grudge against god, but she doesn’t bomb those civilians for funsies. She does it for the professional credit.

[@dracocrusher]

+ Naten 15 I mean, fair enough point, I guess, but by the end of the series that line gets seriously blurred because the war reaches a treaty and she could just stop at that point and just flee the country to avoid any future conflict. But instead she specifically recognizes the situation and goes out of her way to try and push for one last big movement to defeat their enemy while they have the chance before they can regroup... something that only worsens her status with the higher-ups and exclusively puts Tanya in danger because she even goes as far as to try to do a mission into enemy territory alone without backup. I think it's more that Tanya is a cutthroat perfectionist by nature. By the start of the series, her goal is definitely to avoid the threat to herself, but, as the series goes on, she starts changing. She gets used to her situation as a war ace just as she got used to the cutthroat world of business and once that mindset comes into play she becomes even more of a monster than she was before, applying the rules of efficiency she learned on the job to become as effective as possible at killing people and supporting the nation just as she once supported the company.

[@dy7296]

Magical Girls then: *The power of friendship surpasses immortality itself* Magical Girls now: *Fear... Fear attracts the fearful...*

[@StudentCleric]

That freaking ho-down, oh my god, you've killed me, dude.

[@nothri]

I always found shows like Madoka deeply rooted in Buddhist philosophy. Basically, that by suffering through an endless number of lives you eventually grow strong enough to escape the mortal world and ascend. That theme is pretty obvious in Homura's journey and in Madoka's final wish. Maybe a bit less so in Rebellion.

[@letsalllovelean478]

I will give anything for a re-write of Mahou Shoujo Site. They could EASILY make her relatable if they removed some things. Make her find her own happiness, remove the random r*pe scene, make her have an environment where everyone else is happy, but she isn't, make her long for something. For example, they could've shown a friend group where everyone was happy, she could've wanted one. Like in danganronpa, despair makes a bigger impact if there's hope to begin with. (Fun fact: Asagiri's bully had NO motives to bully her)

[@thefirstharry]

tbh I had a similar idea like if she had a relatively normal life and was well liked but her brother then starts beating her to relieve stress and because of that she becomes colder to her friends and lashes out on them causing tension in the friend group and making her a bit more miserable (not bullied just a loner) tbh I feel like this would actually make her more sympathetic

[@MysteryMii]

It’s been over 3,000 years..... but on the bright side, this is probably the best editing you’ve done in a video.

[@frankwest5388]

I think the reason why the suffering in magical girl site (mgs from now on) doesn’t work is because she has literally everything going wrong that can possibly wrong al while being able to claim that she made not wrong and not having anything to balance her live out. She: gets bullied at school by clear sociopaths, gets neglected and morally beaten down by her parents, gets physically harmed by her brother, gets psychologically harmed by her brother and gets molested by him and then she gets magical abilities that hurt or torture her. Are you serious. This just can’t all be happening at once without anything being related to something else. Let’s compare her to Timmy turner from fairly odd parents. Timmy gets bullied by 1 kid, has 1 teacher who is more weird and obsessive than anything his parents are incompetent and his baby sitter is sadistic. The reasons why with Timmy it hurts to see him suffer while with mgs it is just melodrama are simple. We see good things happen to him, he has some friends, sometimes his parents have fun or bond with him and of course his fairies. Also most of the bigger problems he runs into are due to wanting an easy solution to his problems and not thinking them through, making then his fault, so that he can learn to deal with those problems. (You know like a real person) Also it never gets so graphic that it becomes uncomfortable, since the show is optimistic in its nature. Which helps it so that the bad things don’t get to big to handle or be taken seriously.

[@animeotaku307]

Frank West Except for Wishful Life (though Hartman expressed regret about writing that one). Otherwise, I agree. Hell, Oddparents and Madoka even share the same theme of “wishes going horribly wrong.” They just have different ways of going about it.

[@frankwest5388]

LegalAssassin all good shows have a few episodes that stink that is normal. Also why do you think I specifically compared those two shows? They are mostly the same, main difference is that one of those is a beloved classic that stuck with people for years to come and the other one is sadistic torture porn that will probably never be mentioned again once Expo makes another video.

[@SomeOrdinaryLegends]

A depression to surpass Metal Gear...please get a better name. MGS is already taken

[@frankwest5388]

SomeOrdinaryLegends I think rape stick implied murder (rasism) is also already taken so i didn’t have any other options.

[@SomeOrdinaryLegends]

fair enough

[@ItsMe-qm3fm]

You know what makes magical go site worse (even tho I liked the series)? In the manga the protag forms a romantic relationship with her “friend”. And then it’s revealed that the friend is actually her long lost twin sister. But does that stop them? No.

[@StarryHoshi]

Yeah I'm not sure where they were trying to go with that plot point exactly? I thought they were going to end up together in the end but then the actual ending happened and the fact that they're related does not help in the slightest...like do they end up being happy as sisters in the end or do they still have romantic feelings or are they just gonna write all that off as "destiny bringing them together" and that's the only reason they felt drawn to each other?

[@ItsMe-qm3fm]

* shineekies * honestly. I don’t know how someone thought what the plot needed was incest and then didn’t explain what was going on

[@StarryHoshi]

@@ItsMe-qm3fm They honestly should've just stuck with one or the other tbh. Either make the lightly censored lesbian subtext be canon since they already have a decently portrayed transgender character and be the reason why Yatsumura was so interested in Aya from the start or just have them be long lost twins and that's the explanation of why Yatsumura was always so protective of Aya. Piling on too many of these "darker" themes just makes it look like a shitshow. I honestly prefer the prequel spinoff "Magical Girl Site Sept" cause 1. it handles the darker themes better and 2. again a dark edgy shitshow but it makes a lot more sense for why things happen in the order they do.

[@hackidreemurr]

Yuck

[@diamondminer5459]

That’s why the anime is, so far, better. Hoped that gets changed come season 2.

[@blackbun130]

Back when it was just the tv series (and maybe first 2 movies) where everyone hated Sayaka or was at least the least liked, and I would be in that small crowd that loved her. She was my favourite character and thus my favorite magical girl in any anime (maybe in competition with La Pucelle from Magical Girl Raising Project but EH). What was satisfying to see was how powerful and skilled she became in Rebellion and that she had a bigger role. Also that she got to live a happier afterlife, like a second chance from all her mistakes in the series QvQ And then everyone started appreciating her flaws and skills more while I admittedly felt like that OG hipster all like: "bich I liked her before it was cool"

[@CryptP]

man sayaka was always my favourite I never get why ppl don't like her, like it legitimately doesn't make sense

[@Real_Filia]

I read Magical girl site, and the main problem of story is character's suffering are LITERALLY same: bulling or family member's death. In this story so many characters, but most of the people forgot all of them expect Aya and maybe Nana and Nijimin

[@evansteele3162]

I really respect you as a content maker, reviewer, watcher of anime. But seeing that shot of Albert Camus at 10:15 really made me appreciate how much work you put into your videos that much more.

[@pecoudracp7100]

Evan Steele I feel you man I almost flipped out when I saw it.

[@siragon756]

Hooo, this shot makes so much more sense now...

[@Mysticist]

Which is funny because I think PMMM would be right up Camus' alley it's all about how in the face of a seemingly uncaring and meaningless universe you have to find meaning in that perceived meaninglessness. It's very similar to the Myth of Sisyphus.

[@darthutah6649]

everyday all I can think about is dyyyyyyyyeeeeiiiiiinnng

[@omishiii]

bye bye world im dead now

[@timothymclean]

Because that's how depression works. You're just suicidal all the time. It's not that you feel listless, directionless, and on your lowest days you think about suicide; all you can think about is dyyyiiiing. Unrealistic _and_ uninteresting.

[@diamondminer5459]

@@timothymclean Well, you’re thinking of suicidal people living a life that only passively sucks. Aya’s life actively sucks.

[@timothymclean]

@@diamondminer5459 I'm curious what you think the difference is.

[@diamondminer5459]

@@timothymclean Some people are depressed even though everything around them is going well, and it seems as if they don’t have a “reason” to be depressed (even though that’s not how depression works). Other people experience an onset of depression from their life circumstances, such as having a terrible home life or being bullied at school.

[@l.a.g3098]

I have a question Magical Girl Site. *WHAT IS SHE FIGHTING FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR* i'm so sorry

[@ClaudiaGarcia-ou4gn]

Their own lifes ¬¬ They want to prevent "the tempest" because they will die with the rest of the world... As I said beafore, some of the girls really improved their lifes with the magic, Aya Asagiri, Tsuyuno Yatsumura, Nijimi Anizawa and Sayuki Ringa... Actually Aya dessapeared everthing that was horrible in her Life, her bullies, her lack of friends, and her abusive brother. Tsuyuno Tatsumura obtained a smartphone that gave her protecton from her parents´s murderer, and I don´t know if she used to have good grades or something XD, Nijimin fullfilled her wish of being an Idol, and Ringa had a powerpuff sword and a rich life... So that Kind of life is worth saving : /

[@pancakeuuuu]

@@ClaudiaGarcia-ou4gn but why do they save it if they are all gonna die in a matter of 2-3 years

[@ClaudiaGarcia-ou4gn]

@@pancakeuuuu Beacuse the tempest will arrive before they life spans end

[@fourthevill4in393]

Ale's Wonderland the tempest would kill them atleast they can go out fighting the good fight

[@Konh-Minh]

@@ClaudiaGarcia-ou4gn Well, Tempest isn't exactly the problem. The problem is that even if they did stop tempest, they'd still have nowhere to go since everyone would die in like, 2 years from then. No happy ending for the main characters, and even if the main characters sacrificed themselves, what would the world have to earn from their sacrifice? From what I see; nothing. What makes this bad however is that an ending is pivotal in making a good story. Their endings are the same as their actions, destined for failure no matter what they do. Everywhere they go and no matter what they do, they'd be attacked, and even at the end of their goal if they can even achieve it, they would die. There's no reason to root for them then, because no matter what they do, they end with the same bad result.

[@lovelylipbonesouwwwwwwwolv2198]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who watched Magical girl site and saw the main character suffering and didnt feel not a single drop of sympathy. Silent voice does a better job at making you feel sorry because the person that gets bullied is really nice but it also shows that they have a breaking point. They arent just this perfect nice person they actually feel human. And in Silent voice the bullying isnt as severe as Magical girl site. In silent voice they pick on her because shes diffrent and when they do pick on her it isnt always physical sometimes its mental bullying.

[@oroontheheels]

I really hate when media creators use r*pe, torture and animal abuse for exploitation or shock value (sorry English is not my first language). I’m not saying we should ban dark media. But creators should treat such sensitive topic as r*pe with more care. Not just throwing it there for shock value and forgetting about impact that would have on a character next scene. I feel like those creators don’t care about their character and don’t want to portray ACTUAL emotional trauma it causes. I love Madoka because it’s very very dark but it doesn’t throw things into the story for shock value. I love that we start from “awww why would anyone hurt that white rabbit-cat thingy??” to “nuke that f*cker!!” in just few episodes 😂 P.S. best part that in movies Sayaka overcome her obsession with violin boy and fall in love with Kyoko. I was so happy for them 😭❤️

[@victorwretched1072]

As an aspiring magical girl, watching these really helps with characterization, Thanks for the new perspective!

[@AnimaRandom]

the wretched be sure to make contract with a talking demonic stuff toy

[@victorwretched1072]

Luna Nova is too sexy for me

[@victorwretched1072]

Last time i was there some girl was doing using some creepy yet sexy bunny outfit and don't get me started with those sexy goblins and that super hot teacher wearing a clocktower disguise

[@victorwretched1072]

i'm pretty sure it was the same, freaking fungus girl is the shit

[@konniekon525]

Do you want to be a God Follow me And sign my contract

[@charliesmith1358]

Oh wow that rap was actually good and thats amazing. The video was also, gonna keep it around in a playlist to remind myself of this pitfall when I come to write my future projects. Thanks for the entertaining and informative content once again EP!

[@Arrakiz666]

I think it's a testament to Madoka's greatness that I can watch that silly reenactment of Sayaka's fall from grace (fantastic work by the way), hear that rendition of the theme and I just immediately get shivers down my spine anyway. Jesus what a fantastic show that was. Also, I will posit a point here. While I agree that what you're talking about makes sense from a very standard literary perspective, I have to wonder how much of it is us injecting our modern, democratic, capitalist values into the stories we consume in search of affirmation. See, a happy ending definitely would be a mismatch between conflict and payoff, and Asagiri overcoming these obstacles while not really changing does sound far-fetched to us. _But why?_ That is a thing that happens in real life, in fact it happens all the time, everywhere. In fact a person overcoming all adversities in their life through sheer force of their will is a rare celestial event. It's a dream. It doesn't happen. Why then are we drawn to moralizing stories that present this journey? Why do we want to see a protagonist succeed against all odds, even if we know, on some level, that if we were in that position, we'd have given up long ago? Shouldn't it be more valuable to craft stories where the protagonist doesn't overcome obstacles, but manages do something such that these simply no longer exist for everyone else? Isn't that vastly more epic? Why do we want the heroes of our media to be so god damned selfish? And isn't it also a bit fucked up to crave stories were heroes are stupid and suffer consequences of their "choices"? Why do we want to see people punished for honest mistakes? Ah, Madoka. What a fantastic show you were.

[@Asehpe]

I agree with you 100% that Madoka Magica was -- is -- a wonderful show. It's my number one anime, probably even my number one work of art, period. I'm even seriously thinking of writing a book about it. You raise an interesting point about our interest in characters that manage to win through sheer force of will. I don't think it's a Western trait (I think it's possible to find similar hero-journey stories in non-Western traditions, like Japanese literature); rather, I think it's more of a psychological thing. In dealing with a world in which 'stuff just happens' and you may get what you want despite not having done enough to justify it, or, more likely, vice-versa, we want to believe in ourselves in the sense of playing a role in something meaningful. The individualist part may be Western, but the desire to see the final reward go to the party that deserved it is more widespread. (Even though Buddhism seems to place no value on this kind of reward -- it's all Maya, illusion --, look at Arjuna in the Bhagavad-Gita: he looks to me like someone who wants to achieve something, and not only Westerners, but people of many other cultures, like him for that.

[@Arrakiz666]

Asehpe There's an argument to be made here that indeed, those are universal patterns of storytelling and that there are certain story elements that permeate through all cultures, I don't know well one could actually support that argument. If we are so conditioned by our culture as to see them in works of other cultures, maybe it's only an issue of interpretation. And there are key, meaningful differences there below the surface that we have to acknowledge, such as Japanese stories' tendency to be more about the themes than about the plot itself. I think there's a causal link between the long story of white, christian, patriarchal hegemony of the world and us having this contradictory sense of empathy towards and desire to witness suffering. We enjoy it when people are punished for "bad" choices and throw suspension of disbelief out the window when a character achieves a desirable outcome without arduous conflict. I think in those stories, we don't see the people we are, but people who we think we should be: free and self-actualized, successful in the face of adversity through our strength, but I can't shake off the feeling that this is a fundamentally _wrong_ notion, because we're not really those things.

[@Asehpe]

"I think in those stories, we don't see the people we are, but people who we think we should be: free and self-actualized, successful in the face of adversity through our strength, but I can't shake off the feeling that this is a fundamentally wrong notion, because we're not really those things." That I certainly agree with 100%. (You make me think of series like BoJack Horseman, which are apparently trying to give up this kind of character.) Now, whether or not us seeing hero-journey plots in non-Western literatures is just a matter of interpretation I'm not sure I agree with. If taken to its logical conclusion, it seems to be another denial of the possibility of understanding others and seeing similarities between others and us. There are differences and similarities, both important; and even though interpretation affects our perception of both, it does not define it, nor is it an inescapable cage. Or so I think. :-) I'm glad you're interested in Madoka Magica, and thinking deeply about it. As you know, it's certainly worth the trouble.

[@Asehpe]

@MahouShoujo Maisoon Mine is Kyōko, because Sayaka is the one closest to me in personality... so Kyōko is the one I could really fall in love with. But I like all of them; I could say each of them is my favorite.

[@Asehpe]

@MahouShoujo Maisoon Perfectly understandable! Madoka is that strange thing in story telling, a character who is both incredibly kind and incredibly strong.

[@corpsenymph4644]

This video’s old as hell but this is actually INSANELY helpful for setting conflict in a story

[@nopenope273]

The acapella version of Decretum was so beautiful

[@erico.3446]

Oh hey, I guess those goats I sacrificed weren't meaningless

[@SleightCreative]

if only the process of finding, stea....I mean buying goats and setting up the ritual space didn't take so long maybe Explanation Point would upload more frequently

[@erico.3446]

Finally, someone understands how complicated and hard it is

[@Abdega]

Wait, we’re supposed to sacrifice “goats” ? Oops…

[@siragon756]

@@Abdega Huuu... i may or may not have spread the rumors that babies give quicker results. But nothing proves it doesn't !

[@pifilixxiv3192]

@@siragon756 wont lambs do the job better ? Since they are symbol of christ...

[@chunkymonkeychunky]

I've been keeping up with the manga for magical girl site, and I gotta say, I really want(ed) to see Asagiri flip her shit and start killing people. Granted, it does feel like she's been growing more in the manga than the anime, but Im tired of the "too pure to hate others" thing. I get that her kindness is probably one of the few things she has left and wants to hold on to it so she has something to value herself for, but in such a cruel world, I'd like to see some tough progress.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@Mami-vl9sk]

@@diamondminer5459 shut up already

[@Redrover1760]

Reply spam go brrrr

[@lullaby0801]

I just realized Sayaka's clip is the fortissimo symbol, which is a musical dynamic. It is directly related to her wish.

[@dio8451]

I think you hit the nail in the head. I feel bad for Aya, but the dark shit gets so overdone that it starts to feel unrealistic and unrelatable somehow.

[@Nockgun]

theres no dynamic reactions like i dont know FURY LEAD BRUTALITY ACTS AGAINST THE AGGRESSOR?!? like i will beat the crap out of people in the same situation as hers and there jawbones are splitted

[@WwAndre]

I was sexually abused, lived in a toxic family, get bullied, tried to suicide myself, bla bla bla bla Even so, I couldn't sympathize with Asagiri, even if I find her problem realistic, she's not realistic with her problem. And ACTUALLY I sympathize more with Homura, a person who is obsessed with someone who showed her a little affection, than asagiri, a stupid lesbian that when bad things happen to her she just cries.

[@eatatjoes6751]

Exactly. Hell, if I can *FEEL SOMETHING* for Sayaka when she beats down that witch, yet Edge, Edge, and Edgy here just fills me with a sense of "put her out of her misery already", you're doin' it wrong. Hell, I'm planning on binging this anime subbed eventually just to cynically laugh at how *bad* Asagiri's life is in comparison to my own. It's a Depression Anime to laugh at when your life slowly flushes itself down the toilet.

[@Sitruk86]

i feel like you missed the worst part of Site: it's comedic timing. its at its worst (best?) in episode 1, but it permeates the show as a whole. once you're on board with the premise, it becomes really easy to predict every moment beat for beat. so how do they counter this problem? by subverting expectations? by pulling mary sues out of their ass just to have a different conclusion? no, they crank it up to 12. out of 5. the razorblade shoes really highlight it the most. like. if it was just one or 2, ok fine. that fucking many? like, how do you even do that? you'd have to shred your own hands just to arrange that christmas basket from hell. its a damn parody moment and its actually hilarious. like no actually think about it. the point of the ol blade in your shoe is that you put the shoe on, and then hurt yourself. that abomination? what is even the point? what where the bullies motivation? just to say "hey we don't like you have some sharp things" ? what the actual fuck.

[@carso1500]

@@syaondri if thats the case they were a couple million razor blades short of reaching the level of edge of the series

[@CryptP]

Even the whole hell hole of Rebellion is actively caused by Homura's own mistake - explaining the witch system to Kyubey

[@Norbert_Sattler]

I think it's a tastament to how well Madoka was made that even this version of Sayaka's last moments still carried a significant amound of feels, even without that fantstic voice acting and even better soundtrack of the original scene.

[@firoificat]

One of the things I love about the magical girl genre is it’s one of the few genres in really any form of media where young girls are given agency and power in their story. They aren’t belittled for being hopeful and wanting to make the world a better place but rather are shown to be capable of making change. Madoka’s sacrifice in pmmm perfectly shows this since she makes an active choice to sacrifice herself using her power to make the world better. Even after this Homura is given agency in rebellion to defy kyubey even if her decision may be considered a bad one. So many new magical series ignore this fundamental aspect of the genre to just make it “how cruel can we be to this 14 year old girl” and it’s just so, so uninteresting. Let them be hopeful!! Let them change the world! Yes the world is bad but let them at least try to fix it! Stop constantly punishing your characters just for existing!

[@yttrmia]

THE TEXTS IN OLD TALES WERE TRUE! YOU FINALLY UPLOADED DURING A WEEKEND!

[@veterangaming747]

I started watching madoka earlier today and suddenly I see this video, looks like i'm gonna have to binge madoka so I can watch this video.

[@ironmilutin]

Have fun.... tho prepare some tissues

[@Apt00]

Once you finish the series, I suggest reading the spin-off manga called "The Different Story". It's pretty good, and gives some context to some of the other characters.

[@sithmaster4305]

Well I hope you're ready for the trauma coaster.

[@veterangaming747]

just finished the whole season and the film (3rd one, skipped the other 2 as i heard they were recap), don't appear to be traumatised, maybe one day i will find an anime that makes me experience "the feels" but i certainly enjoyed none the less.

[@soDLiches]

"so she sits on the ground, and everyone around seems tired of this little emo hussy feeling down" Shit, why did I take that personally lol

[@felixrivera895]

Madoka Magica is dark, but not unreasonably so. It's got the twist into darkness, but also the twist of light at the very end. Also it's no necessary to have a character's suffering be entirely their own fault, but having Passive Characters Kills how impactful what happens to them is.

[@opinionofmine3238]

While I agree with your overall point, there is something you mentioned along the middle that I must vehemently disagree with. And that is the idea that suffering must be someone's fault to earn audience sympathy in a respectful manner or for said audience to care. Humanity is capable of basic empathy. We can empathize with someone who catches some disease, who falls, or someone just born with lack of talent even and thus suffers from it. And these are just some examples off the top of my head where it's most obvious that isn't the person's fault in any way. Rather, I would argue that the biggest reason why this overload of despair doesn't work in connecting is more of what you said by the end of the video, the idea that some semblance of hope and contrast is needed to sell the meaning of the suffering, otherwise the world becomes flat and unreal, it becomes a forceful appeal, a desperate appeal of th author for sympathy or obvious indulgence in torture porn. For me personally, while magical girl site still fell on the better end of the mediocrity spectrum, I would say the pretentiousness is really what becomes a problem for me.

[@shoukokomi6419]

In my opinion, it may also be that there is an upper limit to the sympathy you can feel for someone based on misfortune alone. Sure, if a character runs into a problem they had no control of every now and then, I'll feel sorry for them. If it's literally every few minutes because they're a bad luck magnet, I'll stop feeling as bad because of how expected and routine it becomes. For mistakes one makes to lead to problems is perhaps more sympathetic than poor luck, since we have a reason for it other than it just being something that happened, deal with it, etc.

[@opinionofmine3238]

A very fair point. I still think that whether the character is responsible for it or not, isn't necessarily the fundamental element. Rather, I'd like to propose that that element is build up. As with any story element, tragedy needs to be fundamented first. The reader must understand what's at stake, why they should care, what chain of events might lead to it, what's the grander impact etc... The more time is spent building a connection there, the more impactful what comes later becomes. In that sense, perhaps the "it's their fault" is merely is a variation of this. After all, to establish it is their fault, we go through the process of build up by means of showing them commiting whatever sin or crime or simple mistake that leads to their ultimate downfall.

[@powercore2000]

True, I beleive having sudden misfortune is still a valid way of eliciting symapthy and driving audience emotion toward a character, but I find character driven misfortune to be more impactful in terms of emotional weight when the tragedy strikes, regardless of the presupposed stakes. I tihnk the issue with random misfortune that out of the characters control, is that it leads to a bit of a narrative disconnect on how the character can approach and solve it. Iit might does not require a growth or change from the character to solve it. It could be written that way, but does not demand it in the same way a character driven tragedy does. The best way I can think of misfortune tragity do work for character growth to the same effect of character driven tragedy would be in a backstory where say, the protagonists mother dies and the series is them comming to terms with that fact, and overcoming it. Whether the mother dies due to external events, or the characters actions somehow, both will call for character development and progression, but say take the misfortune outside of a character background set up, and I'm hard pressed to think of an instance where misfortune outside of the protagonist's control would serve better instead of a character driven tragic event.

[@sarafontanini7051]

another factor is that she is basically given no character eyond her misery and no reason for eing the main character aside from eing a vehicle to elicit sympathy

[@opinionofmine3238]

+powercore200 Great point! I don't have much to say to it, though I do want to recommend you watch "pet girl of Sakurasou". Without wanting to spoil much, because a lot of the series focuses on the exploration of envy, it really delivers on using misfortune that directly opposes the effort put in by the characters, as the subject of envy isn't one of fairness necessarily.

[@wiggle-ninja8653]

"Same thing, except this time it's a hodown" BRYANT WIJWVDBDKDJ 😂😂😂😂

[@nyankers]

tl;dr: characters need goals

[@Ramsey276one]

YEP

[@sanjanashanker7960]

LISTEN. BOTH THE ASAGIRI HOEDOWN AND THE IMPROVISED DECRETUM WERE AMAZING

[@shayoko6]

*Thoughts* i guess my biggest issue with this show is Aya Asagiri (main character) my ability to believe this scenario was very difficult with her as a lead...it's bad enough several people for absurd reasons cause her to suffer frequently...but her mindset despite being a seriously depressed person who supposedly thinks of death daily is far too kind. other characters in the show and real people have been through less and they turn out worse....to me she is the least believable character in the show. because of the lack of episodes several of the characters really didn't have much depth at all. though i did like some of the female cast. *Overall* i like shows that balance happy and sad stuff when done right. but this failed.

[@rainierdanredondo1278]

(sees username) *ENEMY SPOTTED*

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@Nockgun]

in MGS people are unreasonably hostile towards her like if the gun magic is like that everyone would be liquidfied

[@psychronia]

Another great video with another glorious ending gag. Though I'm a little disappointed we got no Danganronpa imagery with all that hope and despair talk.

[@Maya-he2de]

Watching Magical Girl Site, I definitely felt that something was missing, even though I enjoyed it. I think you really hit what it lacked when compared to Madoka. Thanks for the great video.

[@gravity1749]

I was a big fan of Madoka Magica, and so I thought I'd give Magical Girl Site a try when I came across it. I stopped and restarted like 3 times before finally giving up on the series. I just felt... bad, when I read it. You have articulated pretty much my every gripe with the series, and I thank you for that.

[@joshuaokoro-sokoh2993]

And speaking of choices. Magical Girl site chick Asagari DID NOT even have a choice of accepting her powers, it was just dumped on her even when she outrightly disagreed with it, It just felt like another more fantastic way for the shows's world to screw the girl over adding to what it was already doing.

[@littleangelml5145]

I like how he threw Princess Tutu into the frame at like the start of the video and said how these were part of a new wave of magical girl shows to come after Madoka Magica. But Princess Tutu came out like 10 years before Madoka. I know he probably did it more for comedy but I still wanna point it out.

[@jamiemoriarty6785]

Tbh I feel like the anime adaptation for Site wasn't very good to begin with, especially since they skipped over moments and essentially changed the entire storyline just so they could fit the story in one season Site definitely gets better as you read the manga, but it should be something you read once a week; not binge. That might be why it feels like an overload of edge.

[@guywithglasses5309]

Just because the edge is split up weekly doesn't change the amount of edge lol

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@GuitarRocker2008]

I feel weird about this one because all throughout I felt like it was overdone and unrealistic but the thing is that I know its NOT unrealistic for one girl to experience, rape, familial abuse, grief, bullying, and suicidal ideation in one lifetime even in the short lifetime of a school girl because I WAS THAT SCHOOLGIRL but then I realised that yes I've had a lot of fucked up stuff happen to me but none of it all happened in the space of TWO DAYS! On my worst day I was beaten by my sibling, bullied, and molested leading to me feeling suicidal and self-harming but that day is the closest to this I have gotten and that was a one off to have them all happen on the same day. If it was over a week or a month then yeah that becomes more realistic and something I definitely relate to but over two days? what? just admit you're a sadist Mr. Mangaka.

[@frankwest5388]

Wisdom Pen firstly, I hope you are in a better spot now and won’t take any offense from my small criticism of the mgs’s themes. While you sadly had to go through all those terrible things, for most people having all of these things happen at once just feels off and unrealistic. It’s feels like if someone tells you that they met a celebrity, then got hit by a car, that flung them into a trash can, which then rolled down the mountain. While technically possible, having all that happen just feels like someone tries too hard to be taken seriously. And it just comes of like a parody of real suffering, since it just piles on so much. TLDR: I hope you are doing ok and fuck that series for making it difficult to take those things seriously.

[@GuitarRocker2008]

@@frankwest5388 Still dealing with the trauma and some other horrid stuff has happened since but the fact I still wake up from nightmares of back then glad that I am where I am now makes me think that yeah in general I am in a better place and the sheer 1 in a billion horrible luck that I have had has actually made me want to write my own Webcomic or Manga about my experiences but probably with a more fantastical setting and greater subtext then the Magical Girl Site did but I worry because I'd either have to make my self-insert responsible for her bad luck or I risk making what is essentially a biography get attacked like this video for being unrealistic.

[@frankwest5388]

Wisdom Pen let me preface this by saying that I don’t want to make light of what you had to go through and the things that I write will only be for the story’s quality or the reader’s experience and is meant to improve the story you wish to create. Thank for your understanding. Well, if you truly want to write about your experiences, without it coming over as unrealistic or a parody of suffering, then maybe try to focus on a particular aspect of what happened at a time and try to keep the overlap small, maybe even make a split between different stories where different parts of your horror are being delved into. Like this the reader will have time to mentally digest the information and stay immersed. Next, try to keep a silver lining in the tale, even if not based on reality. Hope is a key factor that helps people to get through difficult times, both in real life and literature. It also helps making the main character more relatable and likable. Otherwise we end up with a mess as magical girl website, where the viewer just won’t care for the trauma that occurs. Lastly be aware that metaphors and visualizations are most times better at conveying the feelings that you wish to share, than to show them in their “true” form. If you wish to delve into fantasy, you can make great use of the supernatural elements to do this. An easy example would be to describe depression as some sort of ghost, that makes it difficult to move or as some sort of eternal dark mist where escape feels impossible. I hope that you can make the story that you wish to tell and to make it as great as it can be. Many great authors used their personal, often dark, experiences to write their story and immerse the reader. Maybe you could do this too. I wish you the best of luck and to stay safe

[@hackidreemurr]

That's tough 😔 I hope you're better now 💝

[@hackidreemurr]

@@GuitarRocker2008 Well the main character in my story (comic) is probably also a self-insert of myself, but that's actually not a problem. Imo it's a good thing to write about your own experiences and so

[@sugarspicesatan6452]

YOUR DUB OF THE SAYAKA SCENE HAD ME LAUGHING SO HARD. ESPECIALLY THE MUSIC, AND THE CRACKING NOISES

[@milkiiitea9936]

My favorite part of the end of a show (or the climax of a show) is to be able to look back at where we started and where we are now in their universe, and *feel sad*.

[@xensakura595]

in three words: It's too edgy

[@rainierdanredondo1278]

*Bold words for a witch in Salem vicinity.*

[@rainierdanredondo1278]

(Slowly backs away, muttering "oh god oh fuck")

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@tonya5338]

@@diamondminer5459 why are you spamming under every comment lmao

[@tcoren1]

“Took a girl named lachlan and renamed her PedRo” I’m dying

[@theinfantmetroid]

I really want to like Magical Girl Site, but this just summarized all the reasons why I cAn't

[@lullabychannel5400]

Opposite for me. I love magical girl site even though I so desperately want to hate it

[@lovelylipbonesouwwwwwwwolv2198]

Same when i was watching the main chareter suffer I didn't feel not a drop of sympathy. I was just left wondering, am I supposed to feel sorry for her? Like a silent voice does a better job at making me feel bad for a chareter and her bullying wasn't even as severe.

[@diamondminer5459]

The way I saw it, Madoka Magica was about breaking down optimism and topping it off with a bittersweet ending, while MGS started at rock bottom and built its main character back up. The first episode is a bit much, but the scene in the beginning of the second episode, where Yatsamura told Aya to stop blaming herself for everything, kept me interested. The scene at the end of episode twelve (the one with “we are... not unfortunate!”) was beautiful, showing that no magical girl adventure is complete without the power of friendship. The show isn’t perfect, but the way the relationships developed between the magical girls, and Arya’s development, made it worth watching. It’s actually not as grimdark as people let on, with only one sympathetic character death (rip Nijimin). The show is misunderstood because everybody judged it off the admittedly extreme first episode, but it sheds some of its edge over the course of the other eleven episodes.

[@HiBuddyyyyyy]

I like Kiyoharu and Kosame. I read till the end to see what happened to them.

[@shonen991]

While overall a dreadful hopeless world, Site tries to bring a reason into it. Season 1 is all about suffering, and it's through the suffering that Sagiri finds something she wants to protect. Something that matters to her. Something she could only ever find through that suffering. Site is is extreme and edgy, and I'll admit that it's probably done poorly. But having the same old characters all the time stagnates a genre. The characters of Madoka had lives and things they wanted to protect from the beginning. Site on the other hand wanted the characters to start with nothing and find that thing they wanted to protect. They're very different concepts. Nijimin is the perfect example of a combination of these two ideas. She had a friend she wanted to protect, lost it, and thus herself to revenge. But in the end her actions caused suffering and she wanted to protect the new friends she had made. Site is flawed, over the top, and too edgy. But it's because it starts out this way, that I can enjoy them find the things that really matter to them. Sometimes you don't fight to save the world. Sometimes you just fight so you can spend as much time as you can with someone you love. If everyone and everything is against that, it's still what you have to do.

[@keyki9832]

The small bits of added visual candy like homura chasing the evil ferret thing are what i love about this channel, keep up the good work!

[@directrix777shinyshinyamyt4]

This video needs infinite likes. From witty editing(for some reason the porpoise pun REALLY got me), to creative problem solving(the improvised clips were so damn priceless, I loved it), to just your taste in anime.(Angel Beats, that GGO reference, etc) Not to mention your analysis skills are on point! You have yet to fail at making an insightful commentary about the quality or meaning of a show or a game. Every single video of yours that I’ve seen has been brilliant, and I look forward to more stuff in the future! P.S. That bit at the end was well written, and the flow was dynamic and on point. Props for being an excellent writer to that extent.

[@ethanharper8346]

seriously if karma and reincarnation exist then the main character of magiclal girl site must have been worst then hitler and stailin combine in a past life

[@LydsTherinNotamon]

I like how you remembered Hitomi's name at about the same time I finished googling to remember

[@emrys9538]

Why do I get the hilarious feeling that this video is so late purely because you spent months writing and recording that rap?

[@ashiii_shi]

I have recently finished madoka and this video really blew me away. Some of most beautiful analysis on why everyone in madoka is so damn fleshed out, palpable and synpathetic which only results in madoka being one of biggest emotional hits I have recently experienced. Funny thing is as someone who has dealt with some really dark episodes sometimes I love a good torture wank. Engaging in such contents has helped me cope and redirect a lot of self destructive behaviors. But even then I find a series like magical girl site so .... Dissatisfying. I don't have problem with r/pe and bullying and all that dark themes but there is a place when it's written in a cathartic way, in a way that it emotionally shakes you and even helps you cope and there are ways that it JUST becomes edgy and shallow. And I think it does come a lot to whether the characters feel REAL and whether they find some salvation (not even happy ending necessary. I think a salvation can come to a bad ending to. Like homura's fate in rebellion). I will b ethinking about this video a lot cuz it spoke to me not only about madoka but nuance of story writing. Truly amazing work dude.

[@Elfos64]

A friend of mine was just recently complaining about how people who find peace end up becoming boring. It reminded me of how so many people in the entertainment/art industry don't seem to know the difference between mature and grimdark, between a funny exhibitionist and a clown who can't take anything seriously, between being dignified and being bland.

[@Dirdle]

Excellent point, and one I've made a lot myself. For another example, compare the greatest suffering-magical-girl anime of all time - I speak, of course, of Worm - to its little brother Pact. The latter's comparative lack of hope and down-time makes it a difficult read, and goes some of the way to explaining why it's so overshadowed by its sibling. Suffering is important in fiction, and the advice "hurt your characters more" is more frequently good advice for new writers than "hurt them less," but it's critical to know *how* to hurt without giving the audience a kind of learned-helplessness-by-proxy.