How to tune your RC sensored Brushless motor, Part 2, Adjusting Timing using our Motor Analyzer

Make sure to Follow me at the following.
Facebook: chrispatrickyoutube
Instagram: chrispatrickyoutube
Twitter: ChrisPatrickYT
--_---_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--
WARNING---- I DO NOT IN ANY WAY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY TO
WHAT YOU DO TO YOUR OWN MOTORS. PROCEED WITH RISK
--_---_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--
Todays Video is part 2 of a multi video series on how to tune your sensored brushless motors, this video is talking about timing and amperage and what settings you should look at, and how to adjust them according to your application.
Video 1 is shimming, motor lubrications, and overview of how a motor works.
Video 2 , is How to adjust timing and voltage using a motor analyzer. and what the numbers mean, so you can see first hand what your motor is doing.
Video 3, is how to adjust a motor for amp draw at the track or field, without tearing apart your motor to put on a analyzer, or if you dont want to spend the money on a analyzer but want a way to adjust a motor and understand what its doing.
I hope you enjoy the informative videos!

[@donniethompson7485]

You did good brother👍

[@PhongLe-xk9de]

Perfect, this was the exact video I was looking for to tune with a motor analyzer

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

glad to help you out my friend, and welcome to my channel!

[@xS.B.FEINx269]

Been watching motor vids all day and this answered everything 🙌

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Glad you found me and enjoyed the information. thanks for watching!

[@chicagowebsiteservice8482]

This is great but how can I know what the optimal amperage, KV and RPM is to set the timing?

[@farismerican]

What would be the best kv & rpm for 13.5t motor?

[@Chuchuguitar]

Great video! I wonder if the 6A rule of thumbs applies to mod motors. I have a 6.0t that would love to tune.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

nope, would be higher. all i can tell you is take it how it sits and find out what timing and amp is currently is before you do anything to it, also hows your temps after a race? temperatures on a motor is the most important number to watch.

[@Chuchuguitar]

@@ChrisPatrickRC Okay, I will start there. Thanks!

[@japwisem]

nice video...when running mod assuming your running boost and turbo...will you still tune your motors to 6 amps?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

it depends more on timing at that point. reason why i say that is , lets say you have a base timing of 35 Deg of timing, your adding 15 degs of boost and 15 degs of turbo, so your final timing is 65 degs of timing, which is alot..... but i know alot of drag racers set it that way. goes back to what i said in the video, not 1 motor is exactly the same, thats where you need to do trial and error and see what your motor likes, also how your boost and turbo curves are set. so to answer your question, sorry i cant say 100% yes.... because there is alot of moving parts with a mod motor... i hope that helps you understand.

[@RBAERO]

Very nice video. Has in the market this type of Motor Analyzer for bigger motors? Like for 1/8 1/5 cars?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Not that I am aware of. But I also don't race big motor stuff either so I wouldnt know.

[@bluznbeers]

Hey Chris, I've really enjoyed this video series and gotten some good results on my motors using your tips. My question is: is there a good video that discusses the merits of increasing timing vs increasing gearing? Or is there a way to find out if there is a sweet spot between the two that makes for the most efficient setup?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

not that i am aware of... gearing is the hard one to explain. if its offroad, you find the trickiest jump and put a gear in you think it would take to get you over the jump, if you run out of motor before you clear the jump then go up on gearing... seems pretty simple once you break it down this way. If your oval racing, you want to run out of gear right as your entering your corner. or slightly after corner entry. once the gearing is set, then you can adjust timing slightly if your trying to get a little more out of it, BUT you need to monitor temps, because if your motor is getting too hot, your timing is too high, or gearing is too high. one or the other. i hope this helps. I do plan to redo this entire video series but its not in my near future. (be like a year or more probably)

[@AutoBodyEverything]

What about other brushless motors that do not have a rotatable can? The smart motor/esc combo allows you to set up your timing digitally. The esc lets you program and navigate through different degree stages for the motor. You can look at the owners manual for the arrma felony or infraction if you want to see the charts. Have you ever delt with digital timing derees?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

it can be done digitally, but theres no way to truly know the amp draw or kv rating of that motor when your digitally changing the timing. Example.. if your motor is set from the factory at 30 degs of timing, and your adding 20 degs of timing to it electronically threw the esc, then your motor is "suppose" to be at 50 degs.... How do you know its at 50? how many amps are you drawing so you can do maintance to the motor and put it back together knowing its exact the same when you pulled it back out? The issue with those closed systems, is exactly what i was briefly covering above. another reason why most racing vehicles in the RC world does not use sensorless systems. I can take my motor out, tear it apart, do a full cleaning and lubing and reassemble it , and if i was at 54.2 deg of timing before, i can rebuild it EXACTLY how it was by adjust it, and running it on the dyno to make sure it matches... I hope this helps understand why.

[@HBFTimmahh]

Question. Wouldn't it be good to install a pinion to at least add some rotational load on the motor when testing?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

I dont see why you couldn't. Just like you can leave it in your car and check it then too.

[@tylerknight8119]

So I’m wanting to get into racing and traded some stuff for an X-ray XB4 2016 with this same Maclan Motor and a hobby wing justock XR10, motor looks to be currently set about 40 degrees timing, she needs literally like just a touch more speed to be able to clear all jumps and run good laps at my local track. Think it would be viable and safe to turn up the timing a little bit to achieve this? Sorry major noob here and never had a sensored motor before.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Absolutly you can. Every motor is different though so be careful and check temps. Keep in mind it is a rpm motor not a trinity which is a torque motor. Just check temps if its cool bump it up a few degs and try it. And check.

[@dadjosh2162]

Is 6amps a base line or do I go to the data sheet of the motor to find the proper base line for the amps thanks

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

6 amps is just a safe baseline. I will tell you ever motor is different and the sweet spot for a rpm motor is different then from a high torgue motor like a trinity. Thats part of tuning a motor you have to do trial and error and old fashion test and tune to figure out what your specific motor likes. The 17.5t revtec I have in my stock buggy I'm up over 50 degs of timing , I currently don't know the amp draw on it because I turned it up simply because of tempature. And havnt dynod it recently. I plan to do a continued video of this soon so stay tuned.

[@dennisloosli1164]

Chris, do you have an ETA on just using a voltage meter?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

its been posted..... later in this video series.

[@PlayWitIt]

Hey just curious, I have Trinity 3.0t and I have same Analyzer. I went to test RPM, everything hooked up correctly, Timing all at 25 degrees... I hook up 3s battery and did the RPM test and Motor start smoking when I increased the RPM, not it won’t work! What do you think happened!? What you think I burned up?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

id bet you fried your analizer, the Input Voltage: 7.4-8.4V (Suggested to Use 7.4V 2S 1P LiPo Battery) so its only rated for a 2s battery pack.... that would be my bet. did it damager the motor itself is the question , id say it didnt but it could have fried a balance board inside the motor possiably. id have to see it to tell you for sure , but i bet you killed the analizer and it smoked, and that smoke went threw your motor which made you think the motor fried.

[@dennisloosli1164]

Can I use the motor analyzer while the motor is still hooked up to the esc, not the black wire loop only the leave the motor still solder to the esc.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Not that I'm aware of because the analyzer detects power draw and throttle and all that, thats what the sensor wire does.. So if you left the motor connected to esc and disconnected the sensor wire then the esc looses its connection and will go crazy. Check out part 4 I think it is. Where I use another tool to test your exact question.

[@brown55061]

For anyone else doing this with a cheap analyzer, note your battery voltage drop off. You need to keep the battery charged at 8.4 so you have a realistic expectation and get consistent test results. 5.1a at 7.9v will likely be 5.5-6a at 8.4v. These skyRC models also aren't very accurate on timing but it at least gives you a baseline to check amp draw.

[@misterrobato8270]

Just curious. How would you time a Castle? The can is bolted with three bolts from the can to the rear plate. I think castle link allows you to do it in the cheat section.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

i personally have no experience with castle products so i cannot speak to anything about them. sorry i cant help you there.

[@nickfreeman1222]

you can only change end bell.timing on motors that have the option. most castle motors are 4 pole and don't offer that option.

[@extraglutenplz3758]

add timing through the ESC for castle motors

[@caseyrobertson2230]

Any way that you will publish your excel file so that we can track our data like you?

[@zundfolge1432]

What is the basic your looking for? max rpm , max kv? what is the red line warning sign of .....I have too much timing in it and the motor will destroy it self? If the kv and rpm goes up then its good?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

All comes down to your motor specifically, some motors have RPM rotors and some have Torque rotors in them. your asking questions thats very specific that i cant give you a 100% answer that is correct because ever motor is different. IF you have a torque rotor like a trinity, they love amps and higher torque numbers KV will reflect that. Where if you use a maclan motor, they are RPM motors so you typically run less timing to get the motor to run higher rpm range. The beggest thing i can stress, is motor temps, you have to adjust according to what your motor does in your vehicle your using. If you run a 5 min run on a race and you think your gearing is set close, and you pull the car off and its still cold, then you can get away with more timing. Example... i start my revtech's at 7 amps , and adjust according to the track i race at. i think last i looked, my motor is up in the 8.5 amp range but it gets warm at the end of the runs. the green , yellow, and red led is just the amount of "throttle" your giving the motor. nothing more. I hope this helps you and answers your questions.

[@FromthePits]

Does anyone know if you can use these on brushed motors to aid in break in, or just use them as a dyno to get rpm? Brushed motor dynos are hard to find or extremely expensive.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

No needs the sensor wire to register it to see it working.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

I believe you can make one. I'll do my best to explain. Set the esc throttle to be on steering binding so you can use the steering knob to set your throttle and forget it. You will need a stand to mount 2 motors where the shaft touches each other and a couple to connect the 2 motors together. You feed power to one, and then use a volt olm meter and measure on the positive and negative leads of the far motor , should give you a reading. That would be a way to make a dyno for a brushed motor. As for breaking in. Same thing esc to steering binding place motor into a cup of water and slowly turn your steering know on your radio till the motor turns. And if it starts slowing down or stalling then increase the steering knob. Pretty easy to do actually.

[@duanesapp4914]

Is 5amps the number for 7.5 and 6.5 turn motors also or only 13.5v?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

only for 17.5 and its not the "perfect" number... every motor is different i was just using that as the example of what a safe tune is for that motor in my experience.

[@builtbyjuz4419]

Is there a certain amp point to look for? Im adjusting the timing on my fantom 13.5 in a no prep car I've gone as high as 54 degrees but the amp draw is well up

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

cant answer that question correctly because your using it for drag racing.... the simple answer is as much as you can toss at it without overheating the motor... your running 2.5 seconds and stopping where most people use them for races in 5 min mains. So what works for 5 mins races is probably on the "safe" side for you. You have to remeber. this video is NOT about the magic number, its how to find what works for you once you find that number. and with drag racing there is alot of people adjusting timing with esc curves, so if it was me, id set it to around 35 degs of timing on the can and adjust everything in the esc. as you notice, there is no "magic" number your looking for, you just have to find what works for your application.

[@builtbyjuz4419]

Have u played around with swapping larger rotors?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

@@builtbyjuz4419 of course i have, and it affects everything, the kv's and rpms all based on the rotor you have.

[@builtbyjuz4419]

I have a 13.5 fantom outlaw team edition with the 12.5mm rotor, I've just ordered the 13.5mm from fantom and havnt seen any videos showing a comparison, all I've found is posts on Facebook and forums saying the bigger rotor gives more torque, sorry for the noob questions but im in Australia so we don't have any "rotor Ron" or "nick bells" here to just order a badarse motor so I'm trying to soak up as much info as I can do any help greatly man

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

that is a whole topic on its own, but yes usually the larger rotors tend to give you more lower end torque to get you out of a hole faster, but you will give up the RPM , so in drag racing you may give up down track MPH... So adjust gearing according to help with that as well, also watch your timing because they tend to not like the higher timing numbers from what ive seen.

[@agdryicecleaning9425]

I got a high torque rotor for my 17.5 when I installed it I got a lower Kv and lower rpm could you shed some light on why I didnt see an increase in kV?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

was the timing set to exactly the same setting before you took it apart and reassembled the motor? you should see a lower rpm reading hints the higher torgue rotor. also your rotor you bought could be not as powerfull as the one you removed. Example, trinity does top 5% and call it there certified parts, so it would be the top 5% of the batch of rotors they tested. just some things i can suggest, without knowing all the details its hard to say exactly why.

[@agdryicecleaning9425]

@@ChrisPatrickRC yes timing was set the same and I did see lower rpm juat not a higher KV. I have yet to run it so im gonna try that next club race and see if I can tell the difference.

[@agdryicecleaning9425]

@@ChrisPatrickRC thanks for your reply so fast as well👍👍

[@troybolton4055]

Can sensor boards cause a motor to run a bit slower before they fail? The reason I ask, my Maclan 3.5T ran noticably slower before the board apparently failed. By failed, I mean the motor would not run with the ESC in sensor mode, it would only cog. However, it would spin up in unsensored mode. Can the board cause hit or is it more likely the rotor was weak and the board was a separate issue?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

If you replaced the sensor board and located it in the correct spot then I'd doubt the replacement board would be your issue. Could be a spacing issue with your rotor, could of overheated and hurt the rotor. Theres a few different variables that could still be at risk.

[@troybolton4055]

@@ChrisPatrickRC Thank you for you response Chris. To be a little more clear with my question, I haven't replaced anything in this motor yet. It is sitting while I decide what to do with it. The application is drag racing so I have very precise data on the output and running conditions of the motor. Nothing in the logs or observations with the temp gun or my highly calibrated finger suggestions that the motor overheated. What I noticed in performance amounted to a several tenths of a second and a few moh . The data logging showed 5-7k less rpm without any drop in voltage to explain the loss. Basically, it's as if the motor lost KV. Beyond being able to hear the loss of rpm, the motor also had an odd vibration as if the bearings were bad. Inspection revealed this to not be the case. Then, the problem escalated into the cogging and not wanting to spin up in senor mode. The sensor wire was replaced and I have since confirmed that other motors work fine in the ESC . Perhaps it's worth mentioning, the motor in question is only a few months old. In actual run time, maybe 50-60 passes. After each pass the motor was allowed to completely cool. We are literally only talking a couple minutes of life. Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

@@troybolton4055 then sounds like everything points to the sensors themselves, the motor may not have been shimmed correctly from the manufacture , causing wear on the eyes. Id sway the board first

[@rong648]

What would you be looking for if you were tuning a drag motor?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

depends on how far you want to push your motor, and what motor your using, i turned my 13.5 motor for my street stock drag project and it was getting warm after 3 full pulls. i think timing was set over 60 degs of timing. you could go more if you was just going to make 1 hit and stop and let it cool down, but i wanted to be able to do a few before i had to cool down the motor.

[@rong648]

@@ChrisPatrickRC Ok, thanks.

[@sesmith4094]

will this analyzer work on brushed motors as well like slot car motors?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

no it will not, not that im aware of.

[@sesmith4094]

@@ChrisPatrickRC thanks. Been trying to find one but can’t seem to.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

@@sesmith4094 facebook.com/bill.osborn.7/posts/4750031621739348 go check that out.

[@rcguy5793]

Did it say 4 pole on your settings in the analyzer? Maclan is a 2 pole motor

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

i checked and no, it was still set to 2 pole.

[@rcguy5793]

@@ChrisPatrickRC cool cool. Never hurts to double check. Great video buddy

[@rycam418418]

With 5.5-6 amps being ideal is that for both 17.5 and a 13.5 motors? Off road 1/10

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

17.5, a 13.5 motor has more power draws. I dont know the exact number because I dont race a 13.5 motor that I built and tested to get you a safe starting point.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

If I had to guess it would be around 7-8amp range

[@zundfolge1432]

Ok so when the amps start shooting up then stop and back off a bit?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Depends on the number your looking for. There is no magical number you want unless you know what your looking for. Example. I run on a large offroad indoor track so our motors need to have more power then you would need if it was a small offroad track with no large jumps. So ot takes trial and error to figure out what your motor needs to run the best it can, and stay cool during a 5-7 minute main. I hope that helps.

[@smokefathersbbq]

Maclan states no more than 20 degress of endbell timing. Have you run this motor in a car with 51 degrees of timing?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Still in my oval buggy and runs just fine. Just need to pay attention to your temps. Your probably looking at a modified motor at 20 degs of timing not a stock 17.5.

[@smokefathersbbq]

@@ChrisPatrickRC You're right. Looking at their 3.5T motor for drag racing.

[@ptshyu2]

@@smokefathersbbq I have a maclan drk esc and the r1 motor and was wondering the same thing

[@hardtailrider7172]

If you have a motor that has adjustable timing on it, does it have to be censored for it to work?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Do you have a motor in mind ? I dont have experience with sensor less besides 1 motor. And it was able to be adjusted and you can add timing threw esc as well.

[@hardtailrider7172]

@@ChrisPatrickRC well yesterday I bought the Hobbywing Xerun 4268SD G3 1/8 Scale On-Road Sensored Brushless Motor (2000kV) with a hobbywing Max 6 I know you could run sensor motors with sensorless ESC I was just curious if the adjustable timing on motor would work if I want to adjust it?

[@michaelchristensen6884]

How much information do you know about brushed motors?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

I grew up racing brushed motors. I did a video on them.

[@michaelchristensen6884]

@@ChrisPatrickRC i raced them but knew nothing about them in the 90's. How in depth of knowledge you on them? Does a windings wire diameter change anything? Make it faster or have more torque if the wire diameter changes to a larger wire? Also I heard a delta termination makes for a better motor instead of a Y termination. Any info on this?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

@@michaelchristensen6884 no my knowledge on that part of the older brushed motors. but you can adjust springs and brushes to change the performance of the motor, they also use to put the rotors on a lath and trim the armature down to make it smooth to get the most out of it. Also you can adjust timeing buy also turning the top can slightly, but it was minimal compared to what they are today. but as for internals no, i was cluseless back then about that subject.

[@99ville]

When i try to test timing it just says "please wait" then it gives me a time out message. What am i doing wrong? Also should my motor get hot during the kv/rpm test?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

What motor are you testing ?

[@99ville]

@@ChrisPatrickRC Fantom icon 3.5

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

@@99ville I personally have never tried a motor that high. Or that error. Id suggest try a different motor and make sure the analyzer works first. If you can't do that try a different balance wire. And check your a b c wires . As for heat it depends on alot of factors. But yes if your motor is turned up high enough, your motor will generate heat.

[@tylerm124]

Kv has nothing to do with time. K= revolution v=volts. So its the measured revolutions per volt applied.

[@barkermotorsports7101]

I really want to get a motor analyzer to play with.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

just wait till video 3 before you decide to go that route... is it worth 100 yes.... but i can show you a way to adjust a motor without having to spend a fortune! stay tuned, will be released tomorrow :)

[@extec101]

what is the point of making the motor draw a serten amount of amps?

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Its a reference point, so example... if you tune a motor to run to the top performance for your rig, at the end of a race your motor is perfect temps, so let's call that 51 degrees of timing... You need to tear apart your car and you want to clean and lube your bearings and what not ( maintance you should be doing by the way) and you go to rebuild it back, how do you know where the motor was before if you did not out it on a dyno to know exactly where the motor was before, so you can set it again to the exact same as it was when it was pulled. 1 deg of timing can change a motor pretty good amount so amps is usually a easier reference point to set then degrees of timing on the end bell . I hope this makes since for you.

[@extec101]

@@ChrisPatrickRC ok that is an exampe i can understand then.

[@kaiarneberg9203]

Motor. Not engine. 😊

[@MrNascarfan1]

Are they worth 65$

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

If your serious about tuning motors and trying to get repetitive results after cleaning and rebuilding motors , then yes. Or by a motorlyser , but just to see the power of a motor for 2 motors , nope.

[@MrNascarfan1]

@@ChrisPatrickRCI was debating on one because they are 65 rn on AliExpress straight from sky rc. And I run on road summer and off road during winter fall. And just want to make sure I tune my stuff a bit but unsure if it’s really beneficial

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

@MrNascarfan1 the proper way to tune a motor is check temps on your motor , either add more timing or gearing based on the longest jump or stretch , once you find the magic number, you toss it on the analyzer and test the motor accordingly. So when you tear apart the motor you can rebuild it back to how it was when you tore it apart. Too many people think there's magical numbers of amps , example. A trinity may draw 7 amps, a maclain may dar 6.2 amps. A reedy may draw 5.5 amps. Thats why , when people ask me what should I set it too, I always say there's never a magical number perfect for everything.

[@ocdmods4992]

Motor. Not engine.

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

yes, sorry, i am aware i said engine probably 100 times. but we all make mistakes from time to time and it happens. but i will learn from the mistake and move on, also this is probably a year old video now which i have learned alot about video editing and process of making them since. But thank you for your view and welcome to the channel!

[@Greywolf74]

Just some constructive criticism. If your going to do a "how to" video you need to know all the correct terminology. Its kind of hard to take someone seriously and trust that they know what theyre talking about when they cant properly explain what KV is and keep using the terms "engine" and "motor" interchangeably when they are two very different things. Good luck with your channel! :)

[@ChrisPatrickRC]

Thank you and will do. I've learned alot from this video series alone much less alot over the last year with making videos. I do plan to do more series like this so I will make sure to spend more time using correct terminology, no one is perfect, but at the end of the day, I do the best I can.

[@Greywolf74]

@@ChrisPatrickRC I totally get it man. Were all in a constant state of living and learning. Wish you the best of luck with your channel :)