How to Use Magic System Tropes

What are tropes? How do they apply to magic systems? Are they good or bad, and how do I change them? Well, that's what this video is all about
Join Me on Patreon | / crrowenson
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CHAPTERS
Intro: 00:00
What is a Trope: 00:30
Tropes in Magic Systems: 03:19
Using Tropes: 05:26
Changing Tropes: 08:03
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TV Tropes: tvtropes.org/
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- The Magic-System Blueprint: www.amazon.com/dp/B09G76NF2T
- Restrictions May Apply: Building Limits for Your Magic: www.amazon.com/Restrictions-M...

[@LupusSolitarius590]

TheMagicEngineer: *mentions TV Tropes* Lighting: *changes between cuts* I feel like someone lost a few hours after being reminded that website exists.

[@LupusSolitarius590]

Looking again, the lighting has been wobbeling throughout the video a bit so it might have been that. But I'm going to leave the comment.

[@themagicengineer5314]

What? No. I'd never... I mean, not while recording... you don't know me!!! XD lol I think it's just because of the candlelight in the background

[@ryanratchford2530]

I’d love to see you talk more in depth about different magic tropes and explore them! Look forward to seeing this series.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Any specific tropes or systems you'd like to see explored?

[@BN-sf2xj]

@@themagicengineer5314 I would love to see runes and magical language explored. I don’t know too much about them but in Norse mythology Dwarves inscribed runes on stone, and Elves inscribed runes on wood which gave the same runes slightly different properties. Maybe one talking point could be the material you inscribe magic language onto, with what instrument you use to inscribe and how that all can change the effect of a rune.

[@themagicengineer5314]

@@BN-sf2xj Copy that. I'll have to think on and research that one a bit

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

Many, many weeks have been sacrificed to the all knowing TvTropes.

[@SNN95]

8:43 I did go to TVTropes for guidance of my magic system, and yeah, in one year of creating the lore and core of my story, 3 months went by just reading articles and figuring out what best for my story.

[@ryanratchford2530]

My original seed crystal was an elemental system but with a new perspective on what count as elements. Like how Chinese 5 elements aren’t just like the 4 Greek elements. Chinese 5 elements are more like forces of nature and far more philosophical. My magic system has a set off different energy types like motion, heat, sound, light, electricity, etc…

[@themagicengineer5314]

very cool! Sounds like your setting yourself well for a scientific-feeling system, if that's something you're interested in

[@DamienZshadow]

So you mean this video is an introduction to a mini-series on subverting magical archetypes?! Awesome! I can't wait! I would love to see the Trope of magic exclusive to a chosen one to be subverted.

[@themagicengineer5314]

can you clarify that a bit for me? Are you talking about The Chosen One trope in general, having the chosen one be the only magic-user in the world, or the chosen one have access to a corner of the system nobody else does? Or all of the above? Can you give me an example of a movie or story that carries what you's want to focus on?

[@DamienZshadow]

@@themagicengineer5314 The last one! The chosen one tends to have access to a specific exclusive corner of the magic system or a new branch not known or accessible to others or at least to other previous Chosen Ones. The Sage of Six Paths from Naruto, the Sun-something from Blood & Bone, and even The One from The Matrix.

[@argentgrove]

Looking forward to the more detailed breakdowns coming in the series.

[@masterraven8596]

So say I have an idea that is not a trope how do I make seem familiar enough to not feel weird and alien. This is the inherent pro of using tropes so I wandering how can I make it feel real and not foreign?

[@themagicengineer5314]

Try and find some similar or adjacent tropes and see if you can pull bits of them in with it. That way there's just enough of the familiar. Or go full Gardens of the Moon and throw your readers face first of the learning cliff and see if they survive lol

[@mangagnome9764]

I've bought both the magic blueprint and restrictions may apply. These have been really helpful.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Thank you so much! If they've been helpful, please consider leaving a review on amazon. It's insane how much that matters to the algorithm. If you have any questions, please reach out to me at crrowenson.com/contact-me/ Also, if there's anything in those books you'd like me to talk about more in a video, just let me know!

[@TheMPExperience]

Glad to see you are still making content. I hate when a great informative educator like yourself get beat down by KZbin and stop making content. Your videos have been very helpful.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Thank you so much! I might have to scale back my content creation rate (I know it's already sooooo slow), but I don't plan on stopping any time soon :) At the moment, I just need every scrap of extra time I can get for some of the big projects I'm currently working on

[@themagicengineer5314]

Interesting question@caitlyncarvalho7637 and you're right. The closest I can think of is a blend of the "wise mentor" and the "expert in hiding" tropes. Not truly an ex-magic user so much as they have gone into hiding. That could be an interesting angle for a story

[@themagicengineer5314]

@caitlyncarvalho7637Makes sense. It's interesting that we have "former swordsman" and "former guards" but not "former wizards"

[@themagicengineer5314]

Not necessarily inconsistent. If you portray the magic of man as SEPARATE form the magic of such creatures, then it's fine. If you say they are the same but then the creatures don't have to do things that humans do, it is inconcistent.@caitlyncarvalho7637

[@themagicengineer5314]

That is something you'd have to ask a history buff, etymologist, or both. Just a guess though, it probably comes from trying to translate an ancient foreign word and how it was spelled varied based on who adopted it and possibly nuances in the meaning they were trying to convey@caitlyncarvalho7637

[@wynsonrao5177]

I would love you could explore "blood magic", mostly because there are so many different angles to approach it from, and it seems almost more like an aesthetic than a strict archetype. It would be great to see you dissect and identify its parts!

[@themagicengineer5314]

Oooohhh. That's a GOOD one. I'll add it to the list. The next two I have planned are Necromancy and Elemental Magic

[@igwilly6592]

Good start. I'm eager to see/read the rest of the series. One magic system archetype, which I have a love-and-hate relationship with, is the dreaded Vancian magic. It's a very... divisive, type of magic, and I would like to hear your thoughts about it ^^

[@themagicengineer5314]

Oh, that is DEFINITELY going on the list! In a nutshell, I think Vancian systems are all about promoting planning and resource management in a quantitative fashion. It does those two things very well, but it lacks flexibility for random events happening, which is a problem if all you have is your magic

[@bullparade1002]

Great video - looking forward to the archetypes! Definitely want to explore necromancy, alchemy, elemental, superheros, and shonen anime power systems if you are familiar with that. Also, how do you do the hand drawing animations? Looks cool

[@themagicengineer5314]

I'm not familiar with it, but I'd love to learn. Would you (or anyone else for that matter) be willing to talk sometime so I can get familiar with it? As for the animations, I cheat. I use software called VideoScribe to build that all out and then I edit them into the video with Premiere Pro

[@bullparade1002]

@@themagicengineer5314 Yeah sure, I'm no expert but I think that would be fun

[@whit3_rabb1t74]

@@themagicengineer5314 if you want some info about it at any point, you can throw me a message as well

[@StarlasAiko]

I am working on a RPG system in which I use my (very limited) etymology knowledge in terming the classes of magic. For example, anything ending in ~mancy (pyromancy, necromancy, etc...) is a form of Divination, which includes scrying. Necromancy does not raise the dead, but allow speaking to spirit or glimpsing the future in the entrails of goats while Pyromancy grants visions from staring into flames. For most commonly troped effects beyond divination and scrying, you need ~urgies, like Theurgy (Divine Workings) or Thaumaturgy (Wonder Workings); the popular "necromantic" spells like raise dead, rott flesh, etc... would fall under Necrurgy rather than Necromacy. And then there is of course Alchemy...but we don't talk about him... For that RPG system I am also using a variant on the Mana Pool system, combining it with a (grotesquely) simplified Chacra concept of there being three chacras, each serving as source for a different form of mana, and spells require a mage to have enough control over their own energy flows to manipulate and channel those three types of energy in correct proportionate manner and quantities.

[@brandong8852]

Thanks for the video! Could you discuss the trope of a character's enlightenment/spiritual progress being tied to his or her ability to wield magic?

[@themagicengineer5314]

Is there a particular trope you have in mind I can look up on TvTropes.org? Or are you just talking about the general connection between magic and meditation/enlightenment?

[@brandong8852]

@@themagicengineer5314 I think just in general, but I see it so much in fantasy, just wondering what your thoughts are. Browsing around the site, I think Enlightenment Superpowers are related though 🎉

[@Taken4Ransom]

Blood magic would be a cool one to see different ways it can be done

[@themagicengineer5314]

definitely on the list. I'm going to do another video on Superpowers and then I'll be covering some other topics for a little bit, but I will be coming back to this :)

[@anubia-bastet8825]

I would like to see exploration of magic sources. You mentioned one in the video the Mana Pool. Others I would like to see are biological based magic, world essence magic etc.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Excellent suggestion! I will definitely add that to my list of topics

[@IndigoXYZ18]

What's the most *unique* magic system concept you've come across? The magic system tropes I'm most interested in are "Sufficiently Analyzed Magic"/ "Scientifically Understandable Sorcery".

[@themagicengineer5314]

That's a tough question the first two that come to mind are the science/magic blend in Perdido Street Station by China Mieville and the, for lack of a better word, stamp-based magic of The Emperor's Soul by Brandon Sanderson

[@aweetodd]

My story has a character that's main quirk is anti magic and he hates it. One of the main means of travel in my world is portals and if he tries to go through one they shatter like glass.

[@themagicengineer5314]

That's a fun subversion! Take a standard magical concept and make it unavailable or detrimental to your MC. So does he just have to travel the mundane way, or are there workaround?

[@aweetodd]

There are skyships in my world but they are becoming less frequent sense the discovery of portal magic. His main problem it the world's technology revolvse Around magic stones and they can explode if he gets to close

[@CallboyofCthulhu]

Never watch this video when you’re hungry

[@themagicengineer5314]

lol. Did the mashed potatoe analogy get to you?

[@bdup159]

Trope vs cliche . Thank you

[@adamshafeeq8685]

Can you do this but with world building?

[@themagicengineer5314]

Oooo. I like that idea. Do you have any worldbuilding tropes in mind you'd like to see tackled?

[@adamshafeeq8685]

@@themagicengineer5314 for personal preferences, sci fi (soft and hard) and If you plan on making it multiple parts, maybe talk about races for it's own video, both monolithic and diverse.

[@h.s.s.3881]

Great video! Unholy abominations - yeah! But do we get the green lentil mashed potato recipe? ;-)

[@themagicengineer5314]

In Bibi's Kitchen pg 118 and it goes INCREDIBLY well with the Sauteed Cabbage on pg 117 www.amazon.com/Bibis-Kitchen-Recipes-Grandmothers-Countries/dp/1984856731/

[@quakxy_dukx]

Boy do I have news for you. I like mashed potatoes and gravy… separately. You put your gravy on your meat and roast veggies but not with your mashed spuds. That’s just wrong. I guess what you could take from this is that the line between trope and cliche is subjective.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Lol. Very much so. Something that's "cliche" to someone that's been reading a genre for decades could be fresh and interesting to someone else that's never experienced it before.

[@baronrodrigo5049]

I’d rather have gravy and no mash than… man your giving me anxiety with the food troping

[@themagicengineer5314]

lol

[@MammothMorals]

I hate mash potatoes and gravy

[@themagicengineer5314]

Really?! Well, I'm not going to dislike this comment because you are entitled to your opnion, but REALLY? What don't you like about it? Is it the consistency?