How Too Many Evangelical Marriage Books Mirror Coercive Control & Cult Tactics

[@angelamc2923]

My state, Washington State, just criminalized coercive control, and I know a woman who is a test case of using this law to protect people. Fortunately her church is standing with her also.

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

I live in Washington state too. I’m so glad they did that. I wasn’t aware of that.

[@FireflowerDancer]

Right on, I wasn't aware either, though some of my family just moved to Washington last autumn.

[@ladonna9938]

That is great news!🎉

[@stregalilith]

It’s like the mafia protection racket. He’ll protect her from all those bad men out there but who will protect her and her children from their protector?

[@dabbyabb]

Excellent comparison.

[@cindycaricos3379]

That BITE is really interesting, so many Evangelicals use this! John MacArthur does this too all the time!

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

Right?! It is such an interesting framework to use to evaluate these kinds of spaces for how controlling they may be.

[@rwilliams638]

I appreciate this conversation. You put into words my experience of spiritual abuse. “Biblical counseling “ is very destructive to a woman who is in an abusive marriage. My story is one of many that women have experienced. Please continue to educate women. We matter!

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

I agree. When I did research for my dissertation, I explored how biblical counseling resources, teachings, etc dealt with abuse and it was very discouraging if not downright disturbing at points. I believe there are way more risks for biblical counselling than potential benefits, particularly for abuse victims. I'm so sorry that you were subjected to that. :( Victims matter and we must centre their voices! Thank you for your comment.

[@dolphinlover6311]

“Biblical” counseling (big eye roll)

[@dolphinlover6311]

Thank u - ur a god send

[@alliematt1016]

I was in a church like this in college where our behavior was controlled in the name of God. Particularly in evangelism, where we were asked, how many people did you invite to church today? Gymnast Jamie Dantzscher wrote the following in a new forward to Joan Ryan's book Little Girls in Pretty Boxes (about abuse in the world of gymnastics and figure skating): "Only in an environment in which abuse of all kinds is normalized could sexual abuse on this scale happen." Dantzscher was one of those abused in the Larry Nassar scandal and one of the first to file a lawsuit against him. Abuse is definitely normalized in the circumstances you're talking about and it's even worse because it's done in the name of God.

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

Yea it is much harder to pinpoint in some cases because the layers of theological framing and rationalization really obscure the harm that is being done and make it harder for victims to come forward. :(

[@Lucy-z8h5g]

Love that you really engaged with your duty of care and didn't just discuss the topic generally but gave the BITE model to empower anyone listening who may be vulnerable or at risk. Thank you for talking about this topic responsibly.

[@SheilaWrayGregoire]

Thank you! I feel like we're barely scratching the surface but I hope if people want more info they can explore more.

[@TheEllaTB]

Oh man, I've lived this. It's horrible. I look at the notes I took when I was in such a marriage and my heart breaks for that desperate woman who became a shell of a person simply trying to keep her world from falling apart

[@dolphinlover6311]

So u got out? How and what was the final straw if I don’t mind?

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

This episode was so helpful me. It really did help me see how complimentarianism , really is set up by nature as a type of control. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church with my parents as missionaries in the 1970s and 80s and the idea of complimentarianism was not focused on so heavily until I was an adult, although I look back and see how it really hurt me and my sisters deeply. My ex husband who was very abusive had me read the Recovering Biblical Womanhood and Manhood book as a way to get me under his control. He would also question my sanity and tell me we needed to get a psychological evaluation done on me, while also not being unfaithful to me. I got to a point in my faith where I felt no matter how much he hurt me I had to submit. Thankfully, with the help of Leslie Vernicks books and some friends I finally got out. I have been so afraid to even consider complimentarianism as not being correct because of so much of the church making that part of what it means to be an Orthodox Christian.

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

It makes me so angry to hear about these "resources" literally being used to gain control over another person. I'm so glad you found Leslie Vernick's work! It takes so much courage to take those steps. When we are so afraid to even just begin to question a long-held belief, that is when we know that there is a significant level of psychological control that we are under. We don't feel safe, even in our own minds, to start to consider that there is a possibility that what we have believed is actually harmful. This is such a good example of thought control from the BITE model.

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

@@bethany.freefromcontrol That really means so much. That is really helpful and really needed to hear that. The fear to even question it being a sign of psychological control is really helpful and that makes so much sense. Thank you for the encouragement and good food for though!

[@dolphinlover6311]

I feel for u and am so glad u got out! That is NOT God’s way to be in an abusive unloving marriage

[@ebonyharbut7641]

Oh man I just listened to this episode 🎯🎯🎯 and I tell ya, these "Christian" marriage books, were what I went to 6 years in, kept me imprisoned 15 more years before I would FINALLY find the right answers & info to what I was living... 🤯😡

[@dolphinlover6311]

Yes me too!

[@heathersnyder8789]

I agree. You can’t say the genders have equal value and worth then set up women to be in a relationship where they are being abused

[@FireflowerDancer]

Amen! ❤

[@dolphinlover6311]

You have no idea the excitement and validation I got from listening to this!!! I was in a high control, religious cult, the international church of Christ (ICOC) for 25+ years. And I married in it. So many many many good points but I feel seen and heard!!! Finally

[@daporawski]

This conversation was a-maz-ing!!! I am so moved and inspired! Thank you!

[@Star-dj1kw]

🤯 this comment is SPOT ON!! 32:00 So many men have childhood trauma and then the church enabled them to be jerks; same for women only most of us flip to the other side of the dysfunctional coin into codependency and voilà a trauma bond is born 🙄

[@dolphinlover6311]

Yes! This is my life… I feel it deeply

[@larkspurrose3136]

We focus so much on abuse in these podcasts. But sometimes the controls doesn't come out in abuse. Sometimes the man is kind, but still uses these tactics, often without being conscious of it, to shut down his wife in less nefarious ways, yet still hurtful to the wife and the marriage partnership. Example, the wife has a driving passion/ interest that hubs doesn't share or understand. He uses the God knows best to say no, we can't do that. No intentions to hurt, but it does hurt. Then she turns to her pastor in anguish and is told to fully support her husband and that will make her happy. So, no bad abuse, but still shutting women down and not supporting their dreams.

[@dolphinlover6311]

So true!!!

[@mhall1024]

Thank you both of you for the work you do ❤

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

Thank you so much!

[@pastorkoko]

I think a lot of times the help requires other healthy women and men to be aware of the signs of someone being abused. From personal experience when you’re in the middle of it, or when you’re groomed your entire life into one way of thinking, you think the problem is you - not your husband. It would be helpful for people to know to pick up on things being said - like “my husband won’t let me __”. I would have never said he was abusing me because I didn’t even believe it myself.

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

100% and victims often rationalize and justify their abuser's control and abuse. Like you said, they view themselves as the problem. Coercive control is very personalized and tailored to the victim so it's going to be difficult for outsiders to really understand what's happening.

[@dolphinlover6311]

@bethany I just discovered in my journals that my husband said verbatim “I let u see a counselor.” “ I let u stay at home” I was shocked after having learned so much about natcissism and coercive control! I will not go back. Not sure we will make it after 20 years. Too much pain and traumA

[@FireflowerDancer]

Thank you so much for sharing the truth! ❤

[@heathersnyder8789]

Thank you so much for your podcast. It’s the best

[@azureart5180]

i really loved this convo. that FOGC model is how i feel about my faith in general. are there any resources i should look into for that?

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

The initial acronym FOG came out of Susan Forward's book Emotional Blackmail but I adapted it to apply more to institutional coercion and control. Even though it wasn't geared towards faith, I still think you might find some value in it! You could also look more at Steven Hassan BITE model because it really sheds light on how we can assess the levels of control being exerted within high control groups.

[@azureart5180]

@@bethany.freefromcontrol thanks! i will look into those! really appreciate your work, and i hope i can do something similar someday!

[@stregalilith]

I keep hearing Archie Bunker admonishing his wife, “Edith, stifle yourself!” Whenever she had anything to say.

[@MayBlake_Channel]

I'm the 100'th like! Whoo!

[@Autum-MrsPinkHairedChristian]

Haven’t watched yet, but totally see this!

[@bloomon40]

Where is Christ in this? If we read our Bibles daily it says over and over everywhere that we CAN’T be good enough and Jesus died for our sins. There’s NOTHING that any of us can do to earn heaven. The true GOSPEL is what is missing. We have ALL broken God’s 10 moral laws and we either recognize our predicament then accept the gift of salvation Jesus offers owe don’t. So trying to be good for any human is not relevant. Being thankful to God so wanting to know who HE is personally and how holy HE is will begin to transform us to be like HIM. The Church is supposed to be the people encouraging us to read and pray for ourself to know Christ personally! I pray for all to understand this true gospel not the false gospel that led to tragedy. Jesus did die so we will serve better Sheila. He died because we have all sinned and will die UNLESS we repent and put on Christ to have eternal life with Him.

[@SheilaWrayGregoire]

Your comment actually shows the problem. You seem to think that Christ only came to get us into heaven, like a "get out of hell free" card. But there's so much more to the gospel than that! Think about it: Jesus was declaring the gospel BEFORE he died. He told people "the kingdom of God is here" BEFORE he died. You have such a small view here! Jesus actually cares about us. He wants humanity to reflect the kingdom of God. That's what we pray for in the Lord's prayer--that His will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven. If Jesus only came to get us into heaven, then this life has no meaning. But it does. And people matter to God. So do your part and be the hands and feet of Jesus, here and now! Because eternal life starts NOW, and we're part of the kingdom of God now.

[@dolphinlover6311]

I get where ur coming from- but it’s a false premise. We r already good enough! God made us in his image and loves us as we are!!!! We don’t have to be “good enough” we r bc we r His!!!!

[@alyssa_trulytree]

Two things can be true at the same time. Yes, Jesus loves us as we are and he alone can save us and rescue us (we can't save ourselves), but like Sheila said, his saving is not just "Ok guys, sit tight until you get to heaven!" Instead, a vital part of Jesus' salvation is how he transforms us--our lives and actions and perspectives. When we're willing, he can start transforming us in this life, right NOW, so we can experience goodness and abundance and eternal life HERE, not just in heaven "one day." It's good stuff!

[@KyleColemanEFree]

This conversation has such a faulty premise with incorrect language. These women don't understand what complementarianism is. Their referring to complementarianism as if it's "patriarchalism" or "biblical patriarchy." I'm unsure how this has gone over 200 episodes about marriage while remaining uninformed in this way. Even around the 12 min mark Sheila describes the 2 ideas and approaches of marriage incorrectly, which is why I think she gets complementarianism so wrong. Maybe in whatever book y'all refer to the author there misinterprets complementarianism also. But to state that the view point means the woman follows the man, assuming she doesn't follow god first is an insane, incorrect definition of complementarianism. This sounds like you hate the idea of biblical patriarchy (which is understandable) so much that you decided egalitarianism is the only other option. That's simply not true! Complementarianism, the biblical middle way is a view point that settles all of these issues you're having and the entire viewpoint is ignored. And it's more frustrating when it is not just being ignored, but that it's label is being used to represent something else!

[@KyleColemanEFree]

A second language issue is that they conflate leadership and control as the same thing. Leadership does not mean control.

[@SheilaWrayGregoire]

Complementarianism teaches that husbands are in authority over women. It's that simple. The middle ground is not complementarianism, but equality. Matriarchy is the other end of the spectrum. Please listen to this podcast where we explain in greater detail, and if you want to comment further, go there, not here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5nXiJZ8aMpjh5Y

[@dolphinlover6311]

Ur a man right? Ha

[@dolphinlover6311]

Sheila! Amen!!!

[@drsusieg]

Maybe start reading the Bible. Are you saved? Better get that settled right now and let the Holy Spirit explain it all to you. That's how it works.

[@Lucy-z8h5g]

Thanks for telling us exactly what to do!

[@FireflowerDancer]

​@@Lucy-z8h5g'You're not the boss of me you bossy-boss' 😂

[@FireflowerDancer]

Usually I get upset when people tell me what to do, but this is actually good advice. 🤔😊

[@Himmiefan]

Your facts are true, but your attitude is bad. Your choice of words shows a judgmental attitude that is not Christ-like.

[@FireflowerDancer]

@@Himmiefan I thought they sounded slightly friendly and like the 'wise older sister' I never had 😂

[@nuyabeez]

This is a good interview but I CANT get past the baby Fundy voice. Come on ma'am. You are smart and you have good things to share. Speak them with your whole chest please!

[@Himmiefan]

Good point.

[@bethany.freefromcontrol]

Thanks for the feedback. I was on day three of having Covid. So breathing and having a very dry mouth was a significant struggle. Something to think about for the future. Women who have escaped highly coercive situations have already had to fight so many battles. Dealing with comments about their sound of voice, appearance, or anything to do with their being, shouldn't be one of them.

[@home8630]

What my concern about this, and even this podcast is bias. When you have undealt with issues and you go and create podcasts and whatever else, and you bring that bias in, that can form prejudices, simply because you have issues. Including at phd level simply because you have issues that you are not addressing. I had a little look at the one you are complaining about and heard a little of what she was saying, and there it is clear that there is misunderstanding, and she was going through abuse as well from people that are not in agreement with her. Problem with misunderstanding, causes more problems than it actually solves, including arguments, that did not need to be there. Coerceive control, moves on and produces other things, like force and at present am dealing with these so called forces, that are not God, not nature, but are man made, and can be debilitating, its not pleasant, nor lovely, and is expression of death, I can't tell you how painful it is, but I also know its not going to kill me to deal with it, and it ends. Our nation has had a gutful of what comes out of US and is online, a lot of it is abuse, a lot of it is persecution, a lot of it is based on fear, domination, wanting to control different nations, people groups, ond a lot of it is through not dealt with issues, that is upsetting. A lot of it is US wanting to be number one, dominate others, manipulate and the list goes on, its so bad, you need to have some sort of therapy, and some sort of health warning to sit in these audiences and spaces and places. The problem with all this, is what happens outside the home, outside the family, going into communities, or online, or in churches, or in group places, nations, communication, transmission where people use it to control others. The women in US are very controlling as are the men, just in a different way. I hope you see the sincerity, in truth of what I am writing, but I wanted this dealt with ages ago, no one was addressing it decades ago, when it needed to be, so I ended up addressing it myself, and became very well acquainted with how to deal with this and came upon situations where I had to come into delvierence and delivering and ending domestic violence, abuse lost count to how many, that affected. The abuse ends, along with he coerceive control, we are done and we move on. What needs to happen is healing from all the hidden, invisible, damage this has caused. Not more talk, we need action, and we need you in US to stop trying to control and dominate the internet along with different people groups in the world. Its awful.