How VIVARAIL Crashed and Burned! (GWR FastCharge train)

This is the story of how Vivarail, once a company whose trains were regarded as the "future of rail travel" ultimately crashed and burned and how its products can still be seen today!
💬 SOCIALS:
Main Channel: @OnlyTheRightTrack
Twitter: / onlyrighttrack
TikTok: / onlytherighttrack
Other Channel: @TonsOfTrackmasters
🎵 MUSIC:
/0:00 Philip Ayers - The Adventure Begins
/0:17 Howard Harper-Barnes - The Farewell Serenade
/0:33 William Bencknert - Back To Business
/2:35 Edgar Hopp - Hail Mary
/3:42 Falcon Dives - Airhead
/5:50 Howard Harper-Barnes - The Farewell Serenade
/7:44 Howard Harper-Barnes - Her Majesty's Arrival
⌛ TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 Intro
0:32 THE EARLY YEARS (2012 - 2022)
6:00 BEGINNING OF THE END (2022 - 2023)
7:45 END OF THE BEGINNING (2024 -)
🎬 CREDITS:
• Vivarail Recruitment
• BBC News report on Viv...
• A quick look at the wo...
• Vivarail battery train...
• Introducing our record...
• Ymweliad y Gweinidog â...
• 👀 Cymerwch olwg ar ein...
• London Underground-D S...
• Vivarail Class 230 at ...
• VivaRail class 230 fir...
• Train Truckers S01E01 ...
• Transport for Wales Cl...
• Onboard the Isle of Wi...
• Green train goes Forth...
• FastCharge Battery Pow...
• 150 years of the Distr...
• Red 1938 stock tube tr...
• (Railtex 2019) - Viva...
• Brand Video - 2012 - C...
• Major £26million annou...
• Britain's Railway Adve...
• Britain's Railway Adve...
• Anglia Electrification...
• 230002 at Blackminster...
• Hoppecke working with...
• BBC Look East - Tempor...
• The Marston Vale Line,...
• Isle of Wight in Engla...
• Ryde to Ventnor
• British Rail Network S...
• Travel disruption on t...
• Ex-London Underground ...
• COP26: Prince Charles ...

[@joshw6226]

Bit harsh on Vivarail at the end there. They have set up a wonderful concept and given it life. It was never going to work straight out of the box.

[@stickynorth]

Sure sounds like the concept did since most manufacturers have now copied it including Alstom, Siemens, Stadler but the execution? Not so much... Probably needed a bigger operation to really get it going and that just never happened, especially after the passing of the founder which is what really did it in...

[@katrinabryce]

@@stickynorth And Merseyrail have Class 777/1 BEMUs (from Stadler) running in passenger service.

[@captainboing]

I agree - there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the business model and millions of companies started and are still running with worse management so not really "how not to run a company". The failure was not down to mis-management. The idea was a great approach to re-cycling, the "mix n match" approach to the trains themselves was great - having didfferent energy packs that could be exchanged to suit the requirement is a great step forward. Failure was down to teething troubles, death of the founder and a measly £1M (initially) and it's a great shame that no-one stepped up - Sadiq Khan spent £110M on "art installtions" for London - go figure. I can tell you if I were a multi-millionaire, I would have invested and probably not felt it.

[@arch9enius]

@@captainboing Adrian Shooter wsa pretty much bankrolling the project himself .

[@azuma892]

The 1937 stock were deep level trains while the D stock are much larger subsurface trains, there's no way the D stock would have replaced the 1937s...

[@class73fan69]

it was to replace the 1937 stock that was running on the subsurface sections, not in deep level

[@kwlkid85]

There's actually no such stock, you're thinking of 1938 stock which is what is pictured. While you are correct that the D stock didn't replace 1938 stock on the London underground it did eventually go on to replace the Isle of Wight"s 1938 stock.

[@kwlkid85]

​@@class73fan69 Subsurface trains use letters not years for names. You're referring to the CO/CP stock.

[@robtyman4281]

The D stock trains replaced the R stock trains in 1979 and 1980. The 1938 stock were deep level trains, and therefore never ran on the District Line. They were used on lines like the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines.

[@uk-martin4905]

​@@kwlkid85 ....an the R Stock of course.

[@sheepofwater]

I was just reminiscing with your old videos today. You brought happiness to us with this new video from you.

[@dooto]

Sorry this was bugging me - The 1938 stock is deep level, while the D stock is sub-surface which would not fit in the deep level tunnels - great video though!

[@brproductions248]

3:50 you should do a history on the Isle of Wight railway as I don’t think many people know the history of it

[@nicebean]

+1 here!

[@WilliamSmith-mx6ze]

"Can the North have new trains?" "Yes! You can have London Underground's 30-year-old cast-offs! We'll refurbish them!" In retaliation, I think every time the Underground wants new trains (eg for the Bakerloo and Piccadilly) they should have to have refurbished Pacers.

[@ten-bob-note]

Thanks, I enjoyed your video. The D(78) stock was built to replace the remaining CO/CP stock on the District Line, which did indeed first enter service in 1937. (You showed a photo of 1938 tube stock, which had me confused for a second.)

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

Ah I apologise! It's quite easy to get them mixed up If you aren't an expert I suppose

[@PsychicLord]

@@OnlyTheRightTrack Actually it is very hard to get them mixed up, one is tube stock, the other sub-surface.

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

@@PsychicLord they both run on the underground, no? I could not be less of an expert on this topic haha.

[@CangoFango]

@@OnlyTheRightTrack Mhmm, that is true. Though one good way to differenciate between sub-surface stock and deep-level stock is the height of the trains - since it's a lot harder to build tunnels deep beneath the surface, they (along with the trains that have to run through them) are generally a lot shorter in height. I know it's maybe tricky to picture, but if you compared them, units such as the D78, C69 and S7 Stocks for example are a lot taller compared to deep-level tube stock like the 1938, 1972, 1996 and 2009 Stocks. A way to quite easily recognise which is which is the shape of the unit when viewed from the front - sub-surface stock generally have relatively straight sides (like on non-Underground multiple units) having more of a square-like shape with the doors being exclusively on the sides and not reaching any further up. These units also generally have a well-defined roofline, with the roof itself still being rounded, but overall being relatively flat. Now, comparing that to something like a 1972 Stock, you can already see how the unit's sides quite quickly transition into the roof and the front silhouette of the unit looking less square and more circular. Having the sides start to smoothly curve into the roof quite low down, the doors are by effect also a lot less straight and bend quite a bit inward near the top following the shape of the curve, as the passengers wouldn't have enough space if the doors ended any lower down. I hope this helps! 🙂

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

@@CangoFango I'll certainly be sure to keep that in mind! Thanks very much

[@granpuff.]

Definitely one of your best videos yet. Keep up the great work mate!

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

Thanks, will do!

[@nicebean]

Amazing job yet again! 🎉

[@adelestevens]

I was surprised that the various versions of the pacer were never used for such types of diesel electric or straight electric units. It seemed that the North were never going to get rid of them at one point!🤣

[@samjl4]

Used them almost every day to commute(hope valley line) There was a point where I didn’t want them to go anymore, I thought they’d become a badge of honour and a symbol of northern grit and under-dog status, then I realised this was just a form of Stockholm syndrome and I thought nothing more of it. I do sometimes still miss somehow being rocked to sleep after a long day by the terrible suspension (or lack thereof).

[@CountScarlioni]

The problem the Pacers had that their Sprinter siblings don't is their inability to comply with accessibility laws. I suppose it might be technically possible to mod a Pacer to provide decent accessibility support, but it was clearly way too costly and disruptive for any operator to countenance. Had that been an option, you can bet those MFers would still be on the network and prime candidates for battery conversion! As another northerner who suffered the damp and bouncy wrath of the Pacers for decades I feel relieved to have dodged that bullet!

[@TTTEoliverFan]

Phenomenal video dude, your videos just get better and better, your channel is going to be massive one day 🙌🏼

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

I appreciate that!

[@GeorgeC112]

Perfect video been subbed from the beginning keep it up 🔥🔥🔥

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

Appreciate it

[@True_NOON]

Well researched and edited 👍

[@BernardLS]

Why does the ingenuity of the engineer always get talked down or at least 'damned by faint praise' who else is exporting any trains from the UK?

[@AlessTE]

Another peak video from The Right Track

[@NickBurman]

Just an addition - Henry Posner III (you missed the "3rd") owns/controls Railroad Development Corporation (RRDC) which in turn was part-controller of Vivarail. One of the reasons why HPIII brought a Vivarail set to the US was an attempt at making a bid for the refurbishing of the "Dinky", the shuttle service which connects Princeton, NJ with Princeton Junction and the NY-Washington mainline, which is due for a complete makeover, the format of which has yet to be decided by New Jersey Transit.

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

Thanks for the information!

[@Thatmodelrailwayboy]

It’s out finally 😊

[@killerchutney]

It seems insane to me that this is the approach taken over just… putting up some cables. Thanks Margaret / John

[@azuma892]

Not expecting a modern image video, totally not complaining! 😉

[@AndrewG1989]

Such a shame that Vivarail is no longer here and of course Adrian Shooter but Vivarail could have been saved and to carry on with converting the D78 Stocks to Class 230 DEMU/Battery powered trains.

[@bfapple]

Too many consultants making a quick buck.

[@jakecopeland8068]

“Quick low cost solution” pacer flashbacks intensify

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

haha that's quite good lol. might make a vid about those at some point

[@oliverstemp9132]

The 230s never felt new. But the battery trains are a good idea

[@googleboughtmee]

There's an LNR one still parked up near the fence that you can see at the Bletchley depot. Wish I had ridden one while they were operating on the Marston Vale line, but I delayed it because of covid and assumed I'd have plenty of time to do so in the future! Back to Class 150's.

[@10C45E]

dam that was quick

[@peterdean8009]

DoyoumeanTHEEspeedofhiscommentary?ItwasAYbitfastwasn'tit?

[@Ludi_Chris]

You should try and collaborate with Train of Thought.

[@tylore69]

Oh my god I spotted the island line ones I didn’t know they went wrong

[@paulharvey9149]

Deep level tube stock never runs on sub-surface lines such as the District - hence the D stock did not replace 1937 tube stock, it was R/Q stock, the last of which was withdrawn in 1983.

[@Gatoraded27]

this thumbnail is the most thumbnail thing ever

[@alanbeltran375]

I didn't Know Vivarail Would Existed

[@GregoryHudson]

Genuinely interesting content but why the lengthy use of filters to “age” the video footage? It cheapens the look of the final product and is very tiresome.

[@manekdubash5022]

Yes, why make it look crap???

[@tingewickmax]

As others are saying, D stock replaced CO,CP, built from 1938, & similar R stock on district line. However, the 232's derived from D stock replaced 38 tube stock on the IoW Island line. End credits a bit unfortunate, Shooters name vo'ed by condemnation of magement of co'.

[@Skasaha_]

All the newscaster clips calling it first of its kind is really weird, because they're not. Battery electric MUs are on many branch lines in Japan already (by multiple companies) and they've not had the same troubles the Vivarails ones had.

[@OffTheRailsUK]

Therapist: 1 car D stock doesn't exist. It can't hurt you. D Stock: 0:10

[@Its-kate56]

Can you do a vid on the Isle of Wight steam railway

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

I really must at some point

[@SuperTomsee]

Good video but did you have a cold when you recorded the narration

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

i believe so, sorry

[@lucaspublictransport995]

Hey all. Can someone tell me, on which GWR services can I find this trains? Thanks for helping

[@katrinabryce]

On the Greenford Branch (between West Ealing and Greenford). They aren't in passenger service yet (at the time of posting this reply), but if you travel on the Elizabeth Line between West Ealing and Hanwell, you will usually see one in the sidings just outside West Ealing station.

[@arch9enius]

All those S - stock trains are going to wear out at the same time, TFL are going to learn the same lesson San Fransisco's Muni did, and Belfast Corporation didn't .

[@arch9enius]

Latest news from the IoW is that three of the units have suffered unexpected amounts of tyre wear (on a design of bogie meant for indifferent track), they're looking for somewhere to reprofile them in a hurry.

[@PaulLynch826]

You sound familiar?

[@Duckthechad]

Yeah it’s tons of trackmasters second channel

[@fluffybadger9832]

SWR have recently been having problems with their Class 484s on the Island line. Excessive wheel wear, causing service issues.

[@herseem]

Why might that be? Is it tighter curves that don't suite the D stock rolling stock or something?

[@paulcs2607]

Track?

[@James-kx3fl]

wheel wear is being caused by bad track. Most of the island line still uses bullhead rail dating back to the 60s!! The ballast is still in some places pea shingle dredged from bembridge harbour. They are slowly replacing sections of the line with newer flat bottom rail and proper ballast. They are slowly sorting out the wheel sets and they have managed to aquire some spare wheel sets

[@herseem]

@@James-kx3fl thanks 👍

[@user-yf4gx9lw6c]

This was a really good video and I’ve just subscribed to your channel, but I think your closing comment on how not to run a company misses the point. This was a great idea but with any experimental technology their was goanna be a lot of trial and error. This was never goanna be profitable until the tech had been fully worked out. In an ideal world this would have been funded by the Department for Transport as an alternative way to solve Stock issues across Britains rail network and also introduce trains that had a better impact on the environment. Being funded by a foreign holding company meant that eventually they were going to want their money back sooner rather then later. This would have only happened if things had gone perfectly for Vivarail straight from the start. That was never goanna happen so at some point RDC were always goanna pull the plug to save money. I think it is looking increasingly likely that our railways are going to be fully renationalised. If and when this happens I hope the DFT can re asses what Vivarail achieved and maybe apply it to other parts of the network.

[@lewiss626]

I honestly think if they focused only on a diesel version instead of the years of testing and development of a hybrid unit and got in with 2 big operator who still ran old 150,155,153 like Northern and TFW they might have made a success of it but i can only imagine how much was spent on the battery version of the units. I know the whole green 0% emissions targets means they probably couldn't just make diesels versions but I honestly think they might have made it through.

[@BernardLS]

WADR though that may have been the case it is still looking to maintain the status quo rather than move the technology forward. It would have been nice if the VC (venture capitalist) had had a little more patience; but that is not in the nature of the beast. Let us just hope that GWR can make it all work.

[@isleofwighttransport]

And they still the class 484 brakes down a lot 😂😂

[@doveronefoxtrot4417]

They've been a disaster for island line.

[@CurvyTribune]

There are two ways of doing things: The Great Western Way or the Wrong Way

[@brproductions248]

Babe wake up the right track posted

[@tylore69]

Bro I remember watching a video about this and thought it was cool what the fuck

[@marcleslac2413]

The fact one 230 is in the states.

[@James-kx3fl]

2 are, 230002 and 230011 :)

[@Goodchappy]

Interesting video. What is the difference between "Twenty Twenty..." and "Twenny Twenny..." ?

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

just how I said it haha

[@bruceknights8330]

Twennytwennywun. Humph....

[@cedriclynch]

The Aisle of White!

[@heraldbard]

Train roofs cry out for solar panels.

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

That's a great idea but in Britain we have rain instead of sun im afraid

[@manekdubash5022]

Weird seeing a shot of 1938 deep tube stock then showing a cut-and-cover tube train - a lot bigger - described as a replacement. Just wrong.

[@Gr33nMamba]

It was supposed to operate the then Nuneaton to Coventry line, with a lease signed in 2016 for a year long trial, then it caught fire in Kenilworth. It would have replaced a single carriage class 153 that was always overcrowded pre-covid. Ultimately I always saw these a stop gap until the operators implemented long term rolling stock replacement but I think they had factors against them.

[@davidstone408]

other than getting the 1938 stock wrong (deep level tube is by year, surface lines by letter) - Why are you putting the old world film effects over modern footage - it just makes it look rubbish, sure if you have taken new footage in black and white of an old train then maybe, but the effect is lost when you apply it across the entire video. - TL Museum Hidden London have videos on the Isle of White line and the transfer from the 1938 to the new stock.

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

I'll take that into consideration

[@StewartDuthie]

Your final flippant comments about financial mis-management of the company were in my view not warranted and a bit of a 'throw away'.

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

that's what happens when you finally come up with a title after the script is finished. I added it to justify the title as I had not adressed the financial issues prior and needed to hammer this point in somehow.

[@StewartDuthie]

@@OnlyTheRightTrack Agreed. Sir Adrian Shooter was a highly experienced and well respected business leader. He had more than proved himself with the revolution he created in Chiltern post privatisation. He must have taken a great financial and reputational risk to do 'the right thing' for the railways and create a low-cost, eco-friendly solution to providing alternative power-sources for branch-line trains. He didn't need to take on the D-train role. He could have gone off and played golf. I am sure that he had weighed up the risks and rewards of such an innovative project. To his credit, several elements of the 'product' have been taken on by GWR and the like and this demonstrates that the concept was valid. Funding research and development of a product is incredibly complex and risky, especially in a highly regulated market like the railways and in a way it was an incredible achievement that a 'minnow' like Vivarail got this far. It is a great pity that the Government or one of the organisations who have made a fortune out of privatised railways over the years didn't have the courage to support this project. I am not a journalist but I know one key journalistic lesson. 'Check your facts before you recklessly throw mud'. I trust that you are hanging your head in shame.

[@gwrydd]

interesting vid, please slow down in parts though its like you're speed reading

[@doctorhabilthcjesus4610]

Trains should never use fast charge and instead should charge in motion. Yes, you need a few more meters of third rail or overhead wire, but it increases the lifespan of the battery significantly.

[@BernardLS]

That may be 'a different horse for a different course'

[@doctorhabilthcjesus4610]

@@BernardLS Nah, look: The fast charging trains use proprietary charging ports, but for what reason? The solution of how to get electric power to and from trains is fully developed and in widespread us. The best option is always AC overhead wire, but DC overhead wire or third rail is also good enough and works just fine. The proprietary charging port for the fast charging trains is technically also a very very short section of 3rd and 4th rail. If you use regular compatible third rail or overhead wire for charging, what hinders you to build a very very short section? And then if you determine that you need more charging time because you don't want your batteries to degrade, overheat and catch fire, you can always build a longer stretch of power supply. That's not possible for the shown proprietary approach, because if you determine that you need to charge more slowly, your only option is to wait longer at charging ports. The original approach for powering the cars per third rail, which was built in from the beginning, worked just fine and should not have been changed in the refurbishment, and the charging ports simply should have been equipped with short sections of regular third rail.

[@BernardLS]

@@doctorhabilthcjesus4610 One assumes it is all down to cost. charging station and linger time versus infrastructure (rail, gantry, et cetera). Thanks for the info, have I given GWR to much credibility are they chasing a rainbow? In Göteborg, Sweden some of the buses use a point charging system similar, but smäller scale, rather than trolley buses or VLR.

[@doctorhabilthcjesus4610]

@@BernardLS It seems as if the experiment is not going as cheap and well as first thought. On a system that uses third rail or overhead wire, and may it be only a very short section, you do exactly know what you get at what to expect. Maybe it is estimated to be more expensive in advance, but you don't need to pay for surprises. And if you want to extend the electrified sections, you always know how to do it. You have an new system which you expect to be 10% cheaper than doing the same thing with existing technology and standards? Yeah, expect surprises that will cost you more. You have new technology, and it will surprise you. Especially in this case possible savings could only be minor in comparison to the whole value of the project.

[@WISDOMDUCK69]

I believe you have mistaken the class of tube train they are 1938 stock or class 483s on the isle of white

[@oneperfectmorning]

Wight

[@James-kx3fl]

Before the 1938 stock it was standard stock 😉😉

[@WISDOMDUCK69]

I know

[@gamerfan8445]

8:26 meanwhile we have electric locomotives that don’t need batteries for 100 years 😂

[@Mr.Neil1]

13 secs

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

congrats 💪💪

[@stickynorth]

What a metaphor for the hybrid vs all electric vision of the future. Greater range isn't always great when technical complexity does in a project be it a converted car or converted rail car... #TeamEV

[@avalon7902]

Customers don't care in the slightest about de-carbonising the railway at all. They care about how much it costs, how quick, clean and convenient the service is, and whether it works reliably. Strikes. Fires. Break downs. Signal failures. Crime. Anti-social behaviour. Bus Replacements. This is what works against the railways.

[@DigitalDiabloUK]

I understand the ex LU stock Vivarail bought has gone for scrap, so any future development in BE trains will require new(/old) stock with a whole new design.

[@ChaoDee]

Bro spent money like a monopoly 💀

[@gamerfan8445]

What with the British trying to resell their older equipment.

[@Sir_Rheilffordd]

Better than we here in Germany where everything is scrapped after 20 years of use

[@gamerfan8445]

@@Sir_Rheilffordd the difference between the two is that Germany will replace equipment when they need to be replaced. While the British will try to keep their famous locomotives in operation basically forever. Example the BR Class 43.

[@Sir_Rheilffordd]

@@gamerfan8445 No sadly not, we have a giant shortage of rolling stock while thousands of carriages and hundreds of locomotives are rotting away in storage yards. If refurbished they could easily run for another 10 to 15 years. Yet because of the federal states that demand new stock to be ordered many private operators and the DB cant use them on their lines. :/

[@gamerfan8445]

@@Sir_Rheilffordd fair

[@Sir_Rheilffordd]

@@gamerfan8445 yeah, we'll see. Every nations railway systems have their flaws. G'day!

[@XNick291X]

Have you ever considered talking more slowly in your vids?

[@demil3618]

Of course D stock _trains_ were replaced by S stock _trains_ and surely they weren't replaced by cars. So why emphasise the _trains_ ? And a front end I would consider a _front_ end, not a front _end_ (it obviously is an end but we have two options here). One train probably stopped with a _compressor_ failure, not a compressor _failure_ while Southern Railway is not Northern Railway (or any other) so I'd see it as _Southern_ Railway with no emphasis on the fact that they are a "Railway" (obviously...). just as Great Wester Railway is _Great_ _Western_ Railway...obviously a Railway. Meanwhile some go into _city_ centres, other need more _product_ development (and probably no other development). At the end it should be said that de-carbonising doesn't equate to electrification. It's not about the propulstion tech but the source of energy. And any combusution engine can use non-fossil fuels like biogas, bio-metha-/ethanol or straight (used or fresh) vegoil.

[@mattsmocs3281]

This is why budd RDC's still exist in some commuter services. Cause unlike these battery trains, budds don't die

[@stickynorth]

Then why is every modern rolling stock manufacturer now building fast-charging battery electric trains just like these? That's why I thought. Sorry foamer. Reality differs from your lame pun...

[@mattsmocs3281]

@@stickynorth because green movement and legal forcing of not fully thought out tech that tends to burn out. Tho you and your "simp"sons profile can feel the way you want to.

[@davidfalconer8913]

SO .... All's well that ends well ..( William S ! ) ... but they MUST have manual override doors .... in case of HUGE BATTERY FIRE .... just an example : EV automobiles , ( MONSTA infernos ! ) .......................... DAVE™🛑

[@Techno-Universal]

They could have had a lot more success if those trains had hydrogen fuel cell systems instead of lithium ion batteries which can also be safer and easier to maintain than diesel engines! :)

[@OnlyTheRightTrack]

Great point!

[@shrubbie1]

I don't know how and when the government and companies got the insidious idea that the general public has any regard for the woke fever dream of 'net zero'. All that matters are safe, clean (no trash), punctual and affordable trains. Excellent video however!

[@frmattdrummond6535]

'Woke fever dream'. All the words, but none of the meaning, and even less of the comprehension on your part. A mere word salad! I presume that you realise that there is more to creating a coherent sentence than stringing together fascistic buzz words, like a Daily Mail headline.

[@andrewyoung749]

@@frmattdrummond6535 hilarious given its people who say things like you statement that insist that the baseline view around which all law should be structured is that 1- the people that ended slavery were uniquely to blame for it/the people that invented it are only victims of it ditto colonialism, 2- the group that was mass disposed of via government servitude and which is more likely to be homeless or murdered etc is gender privileged and 3- that men can give birth. so all good talking about coherent but you see the problem, im sure you do even, if you wont admit it. its how you ended up with idiotic leftwing headlines such as 'larry elder is the black face of white supremacism'. erm sure. and with net zero we get a load of people who insist on travelling private jet everywhere, having a booze up every year to discus how the plebs should be stopped/priced out from their once a year holiday. cant have the meeting on the net oh no, has to be the gulfstream5 to whichever place has been picked. again nice and coherent i suppose. and he is, of course right, that people don't care about net zero. they just want clean, cheap, safe transport. maybe they should care, maybe if those three are satisfied they would come to care. maybe they simply see john kerry get of his private jet and roll their eyes as he delivers another tedious lecture about net zero and think 'yeah right, sure pal, not very cohrent there jonny boy.' daily mail jokes dont work now you guys are openly pushing flat earth theory type stuff re biology in you preferred hate rags notably the guardian im afraid...