How Wicked LOST the 2004 Tony Awards

[@erint520]

The phrase, "gods of theatre" alongside a visual of James Corden thrusting should be a crime

[@DieWurstfee]

@Adam Efimoff yeah for a non singing role..

[@TahtahmesDiary]

@Adam Efimoff yeah idk the hate for James goes so far overboard it’s weird. People never have this energy for actual abusers, but will mock James and minimize his achievements till the sun comes up

[@burnt.norton]

@@TahtahmesDiarydeserved

[@dwjones326ify]

Anything with Corden involved is a crime

[@englishatheart]

@@TahtahmesDiary Because he's an unfunny douche who doesn't deserve his success.

[@agcaoiliproductions9580]

I’m so glad this story got covered, people literally don’t believe me when I tell this how Wicked isn’t a Best Musical Winner

[@carminecdinoproductions]

Wicked should’ve won all the Tony Awards it was nominated for and beat out Avenue Q for some of them!

[@emhu2594]

Wicked is actually not very good. The plot needs a serious rewrite and they need more than one good song.

[@alessandramaria00]

​​​@@emhu2594i don't know what what wicked have you listened cuz 80% of their songs are bangers 😌😏, get better taste

[@lindakahler4799]

Actually Wicked has more than one good song. As Daddy says who cares about awards? It's the money that counts

[@mikewalsh1189]

No, Avenue Q deserved it. Wicked just picked literally the worst year imaginable to make its debut. Avenue Q’s creativity and hilarity deserved to receive top recognition.

[@FMAkers-jq2kh]

Another big factor in AVENUE Q's win, which caused controversy after the ceremony: In order to win votes from people who produced shows on the road (aka the biggest block of Tony voters), the producers of AVENUE Q gave the impression that they were going to do a tour of the show - and then, after they won the Tony, they announced they'd done a secret deal with Las Vegas to take the show there instead, and a lot of people were... let's say, pissed off about that.

[@martinfrenette4099]

Yes, touring possibilities have been an important factor for many years. By casting their vote for a show they hope will come to their city and benefit their theater, these Tony voters and producers hope for a win and its publicity for "their" tour stop. A big production like "Wicked" looks harder to pack and put on the road than "Avenue Q" at first glance.

[@FMAkers-jq2kh]

@@martinfrenette4099 Actually, it was the other way around: WICKED was already an enormous hit, and would surely be an enormous hit on the road as well (as it has been) - and the AVENUE Q folks had to convince those road voters to put their lot in with the little show with heart and critical acclaim, rather than the huge show that would surely make tons of money for them. So letting them know that, also, just so you know, we're doing a tour of AVENUE Q, so you'll still be making money, wink wink...

[@otaking3582]

Well to be fair, Avenue Q deserved winning far more than Wicked did.

[@solitarychele]

UnPOPular opinion, but I’m thrilled Avenue Q won. I know Wicked is lush and big and classic musical theatre, but I feel Avenue Q speaks to me more than Wicked. I’ve never been a huge Wicked fan-I’d never tell a person not to see it if they asked me, but I don’t go around singing it’s praises. When Avenue Q was still playing, I’d jump all over my musical theatre friends and “demand” them to see it. Good for them for campaigning the sh*t out of their show!

[@maxrohtbart6201]

Good thing lying is something that is rarely successful in politics and campaigning around elections. There are huge consequences for politicians known for not telling the truth.

[@FMAkers-jq2kh]

Fun fact: The director of WICKED, Joe Mantello, wasn't nominated for Best Director of a Musical for his work - but he still won the award anyway, as he *had* been nominated for his outstanding production of ASSASSINS :) [EDIT: A former version of this post stated that Joe Mantello's direction of WICKED lost to Mantello's direction of ASSASSINS: this has been corrected.]

[@toric6005]

Love that one but I’ve only seen a regional production. I wish I could have seen Victor Garber as John Wilkes Booth.

[@augustineforlife]

Assassins superfan here- Ordered a signed Assassins Broadway CD and it included Joe Mantello's signature! As someone who never quite knew Wicked it was quite a surprise I also had the signature of the director of one of the most famous musicals ever!

[@lonellfletcher]

technically, Joe Mantello was only nominated for Assassins. His direction of Wicked didn't even get a nod.

[@FMAkers-jq2kh]

@@lonellfletcher ...Oops :P Thanks for the correction!

[@emalaw1329]

Good for him! Everybody's got the right to be happy...

[@pikaace]

What I would give to have been a fly on the wall for the Broadway fandom back then... the salt going around was probably even more palpable than the Dear Evan Hansen sweep of 2017!

[@AmbeeLee]

It was.... an interesting time. I was a senior in high school then but it was also during an era when you didn't have wide access to the internet yet and NO real social media sites. You had message boards and such but social media was not really thing. KZbin was just getting off the ground so while there was salt and discord it never got near to the same levels are 2017 because there was just no large forums out there for people to convene and debate on the matter in real time.

[@DrVVVinK]

@@AmbeeLee There was Myspace. And for message boards,broadwayworld was as active as a site for people with dial up internet (not simple 24hr access). I also remember downloading a bootleg of Avenue @ from Kazza and loving it.

[@Hakajin]

The first I ever even heard of Evan Hansen was at a concert, nothing even to do with Broadway, and this girl told me how mad she was that it beat Great Comet.

[@LuisAlvarez-ff4mq]

The message boards were a mess at that time! The argument threads went on for YEARS.

[@zrosen82]

@@AmbeeLeeKZbin literally did not exist during the 2004 Tony Awards what are you talking about?

[@AmbeeLee]

This is a year and a circumstance that really haunts the theatre kid in me to this day. Because due to the aggressive campaign and swag voters got, the question years later is when the voters voted "with their hearts", were they voting for the show they genuinely DID think was the best that season or voting for the show they were impressed by their sassy marketing technique when others kept things simple and traditional? They were right to nip that in the bud before others shows took the strategy and ran even further with it. Imagine the ridiculous things producers would be throwing money at to win over voters today.

[@Paulxl]

The show was good.

[@carters8339]

I mean I personally prefer avenue q to wicked

[@nyahnyahson523]

@@Paulxl Yeah, but the issue is that's almost certainly not why they voted for it, regardless of who should actually win.

[@Paulxl]

@@nyahnyahson523 You don't know that.

[@snuffysam]

Whether or not the campaign did actually sway any votes, the issue is that it *looked* like it did, which would have likely meant copycats running even bigger campaigns in future years. Some jokes are evergreen, and some are only funny once… Avenue Qi’s campaign was cool but I can’t imagine anyone else pulling it off without coming off as sleazy, desperate, and annoying.

[@annekeener4119]

I’ve seen both and love both, although Avenue Q is my funniest/awkwardest theater experience. I saw Avenue Q with my very straight laced grandmother, who apparently asked her friends for a good show to take her teenage granddaughter to and then did no further research. I still wonder what my grandma said to her friends afterwards.

[@Paulxl]

I bet she cursed all their ancestors.

[@tomshea8382]

@@Paulxl She should have had a glass of wine or two at dinner before the show. She would have been fine.

[@littleferrhis]

I mean it is the lowkey perfect movie for a teenager.

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

Lol, I have a similar story with Wicked. As a teen I heard that the musical was good, so I picked up the audiobook of the original novel for a road trip with my mother. The book is VERY different than the musical, with a lot of violence and R-rated sexual content for shock value. Not the kind of thing a 16-year-old girl want to hear with her mother! 😵‍💫

[@oldusernamewasbadlol]

No shade to Wicked as a story or a musical but seeing the development of 2 shows juxtaposed like this is really striking. The fact that multiple people enquired about the rights for Wicked without even reading the book is interesting and reveals something about how some stories get adapted and others don't.

[@nickg5341]

I’ll always support Avenue Q for this reason. It was a wholly original idea that developed into a story that actually felt relatable and like it was trying to do something, while Wicked to me always felt commercial and kind of… soulless? It’s very by-the-numbers, manufactured to make as many people like it as possible. Even if Q bribed their way to the top here, I’m glad they did - they deserved it.

[@UltravioletNomad]

Its similar to Harry Potter, Rowling actually got grants to continue the series before the first one was officially published, and Universal was immediately dogging for the rights not just to the movie, but further merchandising. Ultimately it got picked up precisely because it was seen as marketable, and in a way that companies could see well before it even had an audience, not necessarily because it was the peak of tween fiction.

[@oldusernamewasbadlol]

@@UltravioletNomad I half suspect the market for HP was partly because people were running out of Roald Dahl books to buy and he was too dead to write more.

[@cameronsitton501]

@@oldusernamewasbadlol "he was too dead to write more" is such a great line

[@thelexicon7294]

@@UltravioletNomad Thank god we're all wisening up to this (me very recently). That the rags-to-riches tale of a perennially struggling borderline homeless author penning a novel on napkins is a massive exaggeration. HP was a merchandising promiseland and that's precisely why and how it got picked up as quickly as it did (not to mention why and how it blew up to the extents it did). And that's coming from a former HP superfan.

[@NonsenseWithGlasses]

Reading the comments on this video is so fun, nobody can agree on which musical actually deserved the award!

[@emilioxd6140]

Wicked !

[@jimbolic0809]

Easily WICKED should have won

[@PianoDisneygal10]

I think time has informed us of who deserved it more.

[@cannibalisticrequiem]

I agree with everyone saying Avenue Q because it *did* deserve its win!

[@KieroSi]

theatre kids will say Wicked and every casting director dreams of setting them before a firing squad or hanging themselves. Everyone else will say Avenue Q because it has actual real life application and stands the test of time. You'll find more people can name a number from Avenue Q and just roll their eyes at the entire premise of Wicked as overdone, overdone even at the time of its creation.,

[@garyroth8855]

I was working at BMI when Avenue Q was being workshopped there. I was in the audience when the Musical Theater Department presented a program of that year’s songs from the workshop. The Lopez/Marx selection was “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist.” Hearing it before it became part of a show was intriguing, entertaining and groundbreaking for me. Once it became part of the Avenue Q score, I eagerly awaited it’s premiere and made sure to see it on Broadway. I remember wondering why none of the musical numbers were listed in the Playbill. After the show, I realized that by not knowing what you were about to hear-songs that were edgy and funny-added to the fun and entertainment value of being in the audience. I became a big fan of Avenue Q, as did my wife and daughter, and was thrilled that it won the Best Musical Tony.

[@englishatheart]

Its* premier. 😛

[@melissashilkoff]

Congratulations Marc Bonanni on your first WITW video!!! It was fabulous and the script sent chills down my spine. This is a loss that my best friend (the Galinda to my Elphaba) are still comically upset about!

[@nyanpirethecat2257]

I vividly remember seeing Rod on live TV during the 2005 Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade that broadcasted on CBS as a kid. I remember Rod was talking to some of the celebrities and audiences about what their favorite part of the parade is. One of the child attendants told Rod that the favorite part of the parade was the balloons. Rod responded that "I don't like the balloons. They scare me!". I still have a VHS recording of the parade from that year somewhere in my house. That alone was my first exposure to Avenue Q in the most G-rated way as possible.

[@iHeartsNostalgiaPit]

I would have liked to see that I wonder what commentary he gave once the Sesame Street float went by

[@redique]

As a genuine fan of both shows, I think you could give Avenue Q book for its whitty and clever dialogue but to actually give it Score and Best Musical just absolutelly baffles me 🤣

[@bibimiller5574]

Yeah, the best score win definitely surprises me

[@tomshea8382]

@@bibimiller5574 I think it accomplishes its goal in tone and scope better than Wicked does. (I'll admit to some bias against Stephen Schwartz; he writes good music but his lyrics are almost always subpar.)

[@jongon0848]

Plot twist - she just used u as an excuse to see the show herself.

[@laserbeamlightning]

@@tomshea8382disgustingified is still not a word Stephen

[@YuneChaos]

Best Score absolutely agree that was the rob of the century , best musical is honestly a tossup. Wicked has inspired lyrics songs and performances but it’s a frankly overly safe and sanitized adaptation of the source. Avenue Q is a much more ambitious and daring product while still having a good score and performances.

[@twistedvisionary]

Now we need a musical on the story of the Tony Battle of Avenue Q and Wicked.

[@MrEternityroad]

Johnathon Tartaglia going up against Kristen Chenowith. Bring it!

[@KatieLHall-fy1hw]

Avenue Q is a really solid show, it really hits home about growing up in middle class America and trying to find your way.

[@onemidnightgone]

I don’t remember if it was here or another musical theatre KZbinr who theorized that High School Musical was the major catalyst for musical theatre to become popular with young people again, but I’d go out on a limb and say these two shows were part of that domino effect into what we see now with what has become popular in the past ten years (Hamilton, DEH, and other “younger” shows). I was a teenager when Wicked and Q came out and loved both of them for different reasons. Avenue Q for its bawdy humor and perspective on life and Wicked for its great roles for women and it’s message of people being more than meets the eye. If the LiveJournal communities I was on back in the day taught me anything, it’s that these two shows meant a lot to other young people as well. ❤

[@nxssa7272]

if avenue q surprise win didnt make the tony body change promotion rules, i would have hire their marketing team so great comet would've won best musical over dear evan hansen

[@wabisabi7755]

Even Nathan Lane was flabbergasted when Avenue Q won. You could see it on his face.

[@jasonblalock4429]

That sideways look reads more like "Don't shoot the messenger, folks!" to me.

[@jtgd]

18:01 avenue probably started off as a gasp

[@thinkingoverthenight]

when it was said that there was an ENTIRE campaign by the Avenue Q team, I was like "I know what happened with Finding Neverland, I know where this is going"

[@toric6005]

I swear during the first part of the lockdown in 2020 I just played For Now on a loop and sang along. It really help.

[@rA-li5bq]

I discovered it in the pandemic, it was perfect timing. There is an Avenue Q cast that has made a quarantaine version of For Now on KZbin, I recommend checking it out.

[@thomasbradley4505]

It’s funny, both shows had “for” songs with totally different sentiments. For Now, and For Good

[@toric6005]

@@thomasbradley4505 oh dang I hadn’t made that connection! Hilarious!

[@thomasbradley4505]

@@toric6005 and I didn’t make it either until I read your comment, and in my head I read For Good instead of For Now, and that’s the first time it hit me. 🤣👍

[@one-onessadhalf3393]

Nice to know it wasn’t just me

[@moseschannel90]

Its funny that Lopez went on to write Idina Menzel other super famous power ballet that was sung in a Disney movie

[@englishatheart]

Ballad* 😛

[@firstlast2264]

@@englishatheartis it fun being unable to consume anything without hyper-focusing on providing meaningless, unhelpful, and annoying corrections? Is it a fun thing to waste your hours and days and life on?

[@victoriarosa1762]

Which is a defying gravity rip off lol

[@psychonautism]

​@@firstlast2264is it fun getting mad at literally nothing? jesus it's a TINY correction. ignore it!!! i don't understand people like you!

[@gerardobeltran2591]

14:45 TONY bennett dancing on screen when narrator says TONY award. gold.

[@sagepark1170]

Thank you for using the Bush "please clap" clip, it was very much appreciated.

[@DallasT1998]

Crazy to think that Idina and Robert Lopez would work together years after this....

[@Tamisday]

This was fascinating. I was much too quick to assume tastes had changed in the 2000s. This suggests to me that at least, in part, the reduced gate keeping allowed a wider variety of shows to make it to Broadway and tap into an existing audience, rather than the other way around. In retrospect that was a weird assumption on my part. Certainly, taste evolves, styles change with taste, but that big of an explosion usually indicates an industry shift, like the sudden disappearance of musicals film after Hello Dolly being a conglomeration of factors and not *just* a change in taste.

[@ygk1389]

The 2004 Tony awards was really a great battle because the original works were top tier. That year we also had Caroline, or Change in the mix.

[@adrianam7834]

And the boy from Oz!!!

[@ygk1389]

@Adam Efimoff clock that tea!! I still song “Lot’s Wife” in the shower regularly

[@mikaylaeager7942]

I’m conflicted. AveQ clearly cheated and bribed their way into this award. However, Wicked didn’t really need it, and it may have helped AveQ survive. It would be a different story entirely if they had done this to an underdog favorite like Come From Away.

[@pazyamor2292]

Mostly agree but I wouldn't call it cheating.

[@mikaylaeager7942]

@@pazyamor2292 Sure, technically it wasn’t cheating, but they violated the spirit of the rules. Which is why they had to officially change the rules after they won. It’s AirBud logic “nothing in the rules says a dog can’t play basketball.”

[@orangecat504]

@@pazyamor2292bribing is by definition cheating in entertainment and politics

[@pazyamor2292]

@@orangecat504 If only that were true.

[@TsWade2]

I wouldn't call it cheating per se, I would call it bribery.

[@phabiorules]

What Avenue Q did wasn’t anything new, in 1998 Harvey Weinstein essentially did the same thing with the film “Shakespeare in love.” It was widely believed that “Saving private Ryan” was going to be the Oscar winner that year, but Weinstein spent a full on campaign appealing to the artistic/ romantic view of Europe that the academy loves, and looked down upon the gross ugly incredible American centric film of saving private Ryan. It completely changed how Hollywood ran awards shows as it created the “for your consideration” campaigns, and was probably why the Tony’s wanted to nip it in the bud. At least Avenue Q is remembered for being an off beat, rebellious musical, Shakespeare in love is only remembered for the snub.

[@laserbeamlightning]

And being produced by a human piece of garbage

[@arthurdoe6956]

I saw Ave Q at the Vineyard, and at intermission I thought it was the most refreshing new musical since RENT. On Tony night, not having seen Wicked, I rooted for and was ecstatic that Ave Q won. Months later, after seeing Wicked, I thought to myself: how in the world did this show not win? Both shows are in my top musical list. I have, what I’m guessing, is a relatively rare signed Ave Q off bway poster, framed and in my office.

[@jonhillman871]

you tricked me into watching the commercial by using adorable puppets!

[@elitettelbach4247]

I always knew that Avenue Q had beaten Wicked for Best Musical in 2004, but I didn’t know any of the lead up! Thanks for covering this! Both are awesome shows imo!

[@NateCummings]

I think Ragtime/Lion King ranks up there too, but yeah this was nuts lol.

[@Tunarth]

It's going on 26 years ago, and I'm still pissed that Ragtime didn't win over Lion King. No one will ever convince me that Ragtime is not in every way the superior show.

[@chazofalsa]

@@Tunarth well to be fair lion king really took over the awards because of Julie Taymor's direction and costume that really sold lion king well but yeah if it wasn't for tlk ragtime wouldn't have been overlooked though at least the Tony awards were grateful to give it the award for best score and book and you know what that's fine for me at least cause at least ragtime didn't get swept under the rug not like it's cousin or sister musical (as I call it) Parade that following year. Now that one while I'm glad it won best score and book am still salty it never got the run it deserved nor the best musical award. But here's hoping it takes home best revival since now we got our first one in almost 25 years. (I also need Michael Arden to direct a Ragtime revival.)

[@loveandwar007]

Don’t forget Thoroughly Modern Millie beating Urinetown. And Dear Evan Hansen beating both Come From Away AND Great Comet.

[@filthybonnet]

My favorite to this day is Phantom beating Into The Woods. The original Into The Woods, ran and closed and a revival ran and closed while Phantom was still playing. Stay salty Sondheim fans.

[@andieallison6792]

Still haven't recovered from the DEH vs Great Comet ROBBERY-

[@SteveRowe]

OMG, that was 2004? Literally 20 years ago? I am SO old.

[@SnowDeerling]

Right!?! Where does time go? I used to think adults were being overly dramatic, but it’s true! Time actually flies!

[@jenniferlynne6571]

I remember watching it live when it happened! I was just as shocked bc I had know idea how tony voting worked at the time and I was only a high school beginner theatre kid, so I had never heard of avenue Q but i definitely heard of wicked since it was so popular in our age group at the time. Totally expected it to win and it made sense even the telecast didn’t know bc it took a second to pan to them. Even Nathan lane looked shocked!

[@appletondan4]

Hi dear adorable smile you got and i love it , I see no reason why you don't deserve a perfect gift on your birthday ,it will be so nice hearing from you 😊

[@ztslovebird]

Avenue Q got me back into the Hensonverse & Muppetry.

[@JBabyLeather]

I remember watching the Tony awards that night, and being so happy that Avenue Q won. Because for me, it felt like validation as a weird kid. Even though all the little girls loved wicked, it was this weird show about raunchy puppets that won.

[@dazedneptune]

Same!

[@annatongco2542]

This!

[@LynnHermione]

This video: it was david vs goliath! Also this video: and then they launched a million dollar ad campaign

[@TheGladInGladiator]

What a fun coincidence. I'm actually auditioning for an Avenue Q production this week.

[@atomicgoblin]

Same though! I wonder if we're in the same city or if it's just coincidence that two theatre companies are producing it at the same time? 🤣

[@pilarhunter3154]

Good luck!!

[@TheGladInGladiator]

Update I guess: i’m playing a Bad Idea Bear

[@atomicgoblin]

@@TheGladInGladiator I got trekkie! And understudying the boy bear.

[@waywardwillard]

I remember watching a documentary about this Broadway season and awards, and all of the critics interviewed actually wanted Caroline or Change and a musical about or featuring (I can’t remember) Boy George to win. These critics in the documentary were openly scornful of both Wicked and Avenue Q, declaring both to be too commercial. None of this would have necessarily left a bad taste in my mouth (even as a fan of both Wicked and Avenue Q), but after Avenue Q won the award and Wicked went on to dominate with sales, these critics suddenly changed their tune and declared that they had been fans all along and were excited to celebrate the wins at the after-parties 😑

[@AmbeeLee]

You really do have a point. Avenue Q billed itself kinda as the little show that could where in putting up the money to manipulate the situation, it made them a commercial show as well. Oh and the show was not about Boy George it was "The Boy from Oz" about Peter Allen.

[@RLucas3000]

@cate the Boy George show was called Taboo, and Rosie O’Donnell put up the ten million to bring it here from the UK. I tried to listen to Caroline or Change but didn’t care for it, but didn’t get a chance to hear Taboo, it may be on Amazon. I loved both Q and Wicked.

[@orangecat504]

@@AmbeeLeetrue that why I hate the show for bribing people. Despite its good material. Bribing is wrong in politics and entertainment period.

[@SniffyTugBoat]

it probably has v little to do with how the Tonys were decided that year, but I remember internet culture embracing some of Avenue Q's songs. I can't tell you how many videos I used to see of The Internet Is For Porn and If You Were Gay around 2007. my boyfriend knows of The Internet Is For Porn, but he had no idea it was from a musical. internet and popular culture just liked Avenue Q, it seemed.

[@Paulxl]

Well. There was a lot to like in Avenue Q. The cast recording is one of my favorite ones.

[@KieroSi]

you could also review how pretentious theatre queens were back in the day, or look at it this day with the likes of Patti LuPone today and her disdain for her audiences. Compare Wicked's cast to Avenue Q's cast on that stance as well. Though some by that point was annoyed by the hyper-commercialization and appeal to small children in everything at that point even sports had been taken over by that mentality... So, much of this war between Avenue Q and Wicked often is snotty snobby class wars of trust fund theatre kids that don't have to worry about making a living or struggling with college debt because they expect mumsy and daddykins to bail them out for all eternity vs working performers & peripherials, and everyone else. Early online culture also favoured "The Life" and "AIda" . Older online culture still: was the war of "Elegies for Angels, Punks, Raging Queens" over Rent. And then old standbys of Hair and RHPS. Hard to prove since google took over the newsgroups, older archives reposted therein and only retained 1995 and after.

[@johlysn]

Avenue Q is the best musical. Because if they didn’t win, we won’t get The Book of Mormon, Frozen, and Adele Dazeem

[@PianoDisneygal10]

My eye is twitching at the pronunciation of “Dame” in “Hunchback of Notre Dame”.

[@Crystalpoodleblack]

I know that puts a totally different spin on it. Can you imagine a musical about a hunchback going to notre dame university?

[@DoctorZorders]

Oh hey, I just watched “Showbusiness: The Road to Broadway” the other night!

[@kateorgera5907]

Noooo not the 2004 Tonys! This is the first Tony Awards I was really aware of when I was getting into musical theater as a preteen, and part of me never forgave Avenue Q for beating Wicked (partly because I was too young to see, let alone appreciate, Avenue Q), but I'm less antagonistic about it as an adult. Also, I remember because of this there was some contention the following year about whether 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee would beat Spamalot, since it was a similar "quirky, offbeat show versus commercial juggernaut" deal, but Spamalot did end up winning

[@RLucas3000]

The only difference is that Q and Wicked were both perfected shows, and I felt like Bee still needed some work. It would never have beaten Wicked either.

[@tomshea8382]

@Adam Efimoff Light in the Piazza won the most awards that year too.

[@EmilyTheOtakuofficial]

I love Putnam though it really made me cry honestly in a production my university put on. But honestly Spamalot is funny so I can see why it won overall that year. Like I vaguely remember that year of the Tony's I was pretty young but strangely I remember it during the Tony's.

[@joncerda351]

Kristen and Idina should have tied for best actress

[@robsheiffele6181]

Love this episode! Echoes of the nail-biting Tony campaigns for Nine and Dreamgirls

[@themaskedinc.786]

You should do an episode of Jekyll & Hyde

[@Dorthyturner]

AND Scarlet Pimpernel

[@Moocow2003]

jekyll & hyde gave us both Anthony Warlow's incredible performance on the cast recording AND david hasselhoff shouting at himself on a stage for several agonising minutes. Truly a Jekyll & Hyde moment if there ever were one.

[@mattneff]

I'm curious, if Assassins had been eligible for New Musical, would it have beaten Avenue Q?

[@marcbonanni3805]

I definitely think so

[@AmbeeLee]

Oh for sure. Neither show could have won over that brilliant production.

[@patrickfrancis9245]

I still don't understand why Assassins was classified as a revival that year, as it absolutely would have won--partly because of its brilliance but also the Tony Awards' bias toward Sondheim.

[@mattneff]

@@patrickfrancis9245 there was a whole big hearing where the Tony committee voted on whether to classify Assassins as New or a Revival. Since the show had already debuted off-Broadway several years prior, a majority of the committee classified it as a Revival

[@TheMonicaAlison]

@@mattneff yeah that’s usually been the case for shows that premiered off Broadway but wouldn’t come to broadway for many years. That’s also why Hedwig’s first broadway run was also nominated for/won best revival

[@singbike5832]

Really enjoying the behind the scenes video essays about various shows! Would you consider doing a video on Disney's "forgotten" musical TARZAN? Another musical that might be interesting that I literally just heard of is RAGS. Despite closing after 18 previews and FOUR performances, it ironically was nominated for 5 Tonys, including Best Musical. It sounds like there might be an interesting story there!

[@tomshea8382]

It's a good score and a really sprawling plot which they were not able to wrangle sufficiently. It was dreary as well as epic in scope, and Les Miserables did that much better that season. Teresa Stratas didn't record the score, her fellow diva Julia Migenes did.

[@racheljackson4428]

THE CROWD LOVES IT! THIS IS THE GREAT MUSICAL WARS OF ALL TIME! Thunderous applause.

[@otaking3582]

Oh boy, a musical I've actually heard about!

[@Gilraen15]

That was a great narrative of these events in 2004, Thank you for your great work on this video, Keep It Up! :)

[@RR-fg2rl]

There is a great documentary on this with Taboo and Caroline and change also involved

[@cleowithmayo9359]

6:35 As a lost media enthusiast, including the Wicked Witch Sesame Street episode felt both cheeky and on topic and also extremely, extremely forbidden.

[@DemolitionLover]

Oh man - I remember loving Avenue Q!! For the longest time I thought it was a fever dream since nobody ever seemed to know what I was talking about when it was brought up. Thank you for bringing those memories back!

[@tuckerphez]

I have a “making of Avenue Q” book and it’s funny how they glossed over all this campaigning. It’s just like “and then we won the Best Musical Tony over Wicked!” That being said I’m glad Avenue Q won, it’s the better musical overall and it was the first step for Robert Lopez’s double EGOT.

[@Dorthyturner]

Agreed! Wicked is visually gorg but the book is so weak

[@laura.elizaa]

I wish I could have seen Avenue Q before it closed...here's hoping a community theatre near me does it...or even better...there's a revival

[@johnhart8856]

Wait in the Wings could (and I very much hope that they do) easily do a Book of Mormon video for a sequel to this one, as if it weren't for the simultaneous productions of both Avenue Q and the film Team America: World Police we most likely never would have got that musical

[@mack_r-s]

One thing you forgot to mention in the video is that both Marx and Lopez had a history with the Muppets before working on Avenue Q. In 1999, the duo would write a script treatment and 8 full songs for a Muppet musical called Kermit: Prince of Denmark (it would've been a loose adaptation of Hamlet, but was mostly an original story). It was rejected by the Henson company (first in 2000, and again in 2004 as Disney was in the process of buying the Muppets), but it likely played a big part in inspiring them to make their own Muppets parody musical. You can look it up. It has a whole wiki and everything.

[@mikecarroll3538]

I loved Avenue Q, I think it worked out well with Q winning Best Musical and Idina winning best actress.

[@turtle10141]

"WHAT?? oh my god is this about avenue q?" "IT IS AVENUE Q"

[@jenniferp7497]

This is fascinating and I had forgotten a lot of it. I'm in the minority that wouldn't even put Wicked in my top 30 favorite musicals, but there's also no denying that it's a powerhouse and the total package, and being accessible to all ages is a huge plus. Avenue Q is fun, but I would never just listen to the soundtrack, and the target audience is minimal. (I wouldn't listen to it with my kids in the house.) Totally bizarre that it managed that upset.

[@contextsensitive8484]

Strange case of lobbying from the little guy lmao

[@qwmx]

Wicked had style, but Avenue Q had SUBSTANCE. I hate musicals, I could never stand them, but Avenue Q is the only musical that sits in my heart.

[@mynameisfine]

I saw wicked on tour on Friday for the first and I loved it! The show made me cry too, I never really liked Avenue Q, but I understand why other people like it, just never really appealed to me.

[@annie27261]

It feels so skeezy now in hindsight what they did. While Wicked did have all of the big corporate backing, winning the Tonys basically by throwing money at the voters doesn't exactly feel like an ethical way to win.

[@annie27261]

@cate sure shows do it all the time but this was so bad that they had to change the campaign guidelines. Did you watch the video? They went way overboard and beyond any minor "for your consideration" ad campaign. I'm not picking on anything, I am saying though given that I've seen both shows that Avenue Q doesn't deserve half the recognition it gets and it was only funny to me as a 7th grader because I didn't know any better and still thought Family Guy was funny.

[@orangecat504]

@kylebrovlovskibribes are wrong out principle whenever be political or entertainment purposes. Be objective it’s all wrong no matter who does it.

[@themeechelle]

It's the overly confident "Best Musical: Wicked" on the screens for me

[@thomasbradley4505]

Now something looking like a political ad with “yes Q can” would have a whoooole other meaning 🤔🤣

[@muffinslawl]

So funny for the “Gods of Theatre” line to show Neil’s jaw dropping 2013 introduction and not even showing Corden’s intro for his

[@appletondan4]

Hi dear adorable smile you got and i love it , I see no reason why you don't deserve a perfect gift your birthday ,it will be so nice hearing from you 😊

[@lydiaedwards09]

i don't really understand the huge appeal of wicked. i've seen both shows done professionally & the one that stuck with me the most and had me obsessed for years after (and still to this day) was avenue q. idk maybe it's just me but while i can appreciate the work and effort that goes behind the spectacle of wicked, i am much more drawn to the simplicity but brilliance of avenue q i can see how the campaign is controversial but it really makes me happy that a smaller show like avenue q was able to make it on top. especially since wicked is still a HUGE show to this day despite losing. whereas if avenue q had lost it would've most likely been the end of the road for them.

[@orangecat504]

Yeah but they still bribed people.

[@tomshea8382]

I'd call Q minimalist rather than simplistic, but I take your point. The thing is uptown usually beats downtown at the Tonys. There are some exceptions, like Ain't Misbehavin' beating On the Twentieth Century and Dancin', but usually the big splash will win. I think all and sundry knew Wicked would run no matter what, and the touring bloc of voters was what put Q over the top. It's not like the lack of the Best Musical Tony has hurt Wicked in the long run. It has done really well for Q.

[@roy4816]

To each its own. Honestly I personally think that Wicked deserved best musical and best music, but if these awards allowed Avenue Q (A musical that I do like a lot too) to last longer than it would have, then im glad that Avenue Q won too.

[@ThePribylProductions]

This is the Theater Kid's equivalent to the 2011 NBA Finals

[@alisterfolson]

Me: searches youtube for The 2004 Tony Awards full video. Btw new sub!

[@kazza6078]

Wooo BW Ghostlight! More collabs! I loved his collab work on High School Musical 2, what analysis.

[@Mavisdundundunnnmanston]

I saw ave Q in London, 2006. They made a dig at Bush and you could tell who the Americans in the audience were because we stood up and cheered.

[@ladyprussia3618]

Growing up, I was never interested in musical theater until lately, but in 2004 I was around 10 and all of us were learning English... everybody knew the Avenue Q songs. None of us knew what it was, or where it was from, but people really knew them and loved them

[@KieroSi]

and twenty years later is resembles life?

[@pap64]

The sweetest irony out of all of this is that Robert Lopez went on to work with Indina Menzel on Disney's "Frozen", and it proved that Robert could write emotionally charged songs in addition to quirky and eccentric songs. I feel that regardless of what camp you were in, "Wicked" and "Avenue Q" launched so many careers that are still being seen and felt to this day.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Here's one: anyone prefer the Wicked musical over the book?

[@toric6005]

Haven’t actually read it but one Christmas I got it for my very straight laced mom without reading it because I was sorry I got to see the show and she didn’t. She was shocked by the content and never finished it but thanked me for the thought 😂

[@jackbarbey]

Oh 100%. Honestly the book is not very good imo. My 4th grade teacher gave it to me to read because she thought it was just like the musical. It... was not

[@dazedneptune]

The book is not good. The musical took all the good parts of the book and left the rest.

[@sweetness371]

Absolutely. I had to slog my way through that book. Come to think of it, I don't know that I ever finished reading it.

[@jenniferh3587]

Yes. I've tried to get through the book a few times and I just can't. I genuinely wonder if the people who made the musical did either, as the musical is so different.

[@lexiesmychynsky]

I would actually love a full heathers video.

[@nataliemartinez5950]

not the James Corden jump scare

[@Voicedude]

Hence, another example of the perils of voting with your heart instead of your brains. Hearts are much easier to manipulate.

[@Paulxl]

Voting with your brain doesn't mean you are necessarily more objetive nor fair.

[@Voicedude]

@@Paulxl It is impossible to be OBJECTIVE without using your brain. You'll never ever get it with heart alone.

[@daniellebelisle2446]

Years ago, I remember trying to find the KZbin clip of wicked winning the tony for best musical, and to my confusion and continued searches, nothing of the sort came up. Then I figured out why lol 😂

[@emmazatkowski5334]

I have an Avenue Q poster in my dorm! It’s one of the shows that led to me studying commercial theatre management at college!

[@moniquemurer90]

I can respect Avenue Q winning best musical. But Wicked not winning best original score is kinda insane

[@filmfocusmind]

I met Jeff Whitey and after Avenue Q won, he kept getting calls from children’s networks asking him if he wanted to write a children’s show, since they assumed since Avenue Q used puppets, it had to be for kids. He would always tell them to actually watch the musical and call him back, but they never did.

[@L1623VP]

To blame Wicked's loss of the Best Musical and Best Score Tony Awards on better "marketing" from Avenue Q is to ignore Wicked's weaknesses as a show of which there are several. Wicked is derivative in that it brought nothing new or original to the musical stage. It's based on characters that generations of audiences already know VERY well from a better-written book and fantasy universe of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. At the same time, Wicked's story is disjointed with parts that have no resolution and a score that, rightly stated by many critics, is very uneven. In contrast, Avenue Q took the average children's Jim Henson style puppet educational TV show and turned it on its head for adults with contemporary themes, whip-smart, hysterical lyrics, and catchy music. It reinvented the children's puppet "Muppet" show genre in an innovative way. It was definitely better than Wicked and deserved both Best Musical and Best Score Tony Awards. Wicked will live on because of its commercial appeal to tween girls who can't see the weaknesses in the material, but Avenue Q will forever remain the better and smarter show.

[@waynepoint]

@WaitintheWings This is great content man. Glad I have subbed. Keep up the good work!

[@everything_everyday]

Still can't believe puppets beat wicked!! I don't know if you been recommended this before but there's this really cool raggedy Ann musical on KZbin that has some cool history behind it and I'd definitely recommend it!!

[@notoriouslybratty]

I went into this thinking Wicked is the obvious winner but how Avenue Q was described and how people talked about it in the comments… I so glad they won.

[@l.n.3372]

Amazing video analysis! I've always wondered about the Wicked vs Avenue Q battle for the best musical Tony award. However, your pronunciation of the Hunchback of Notre Dame hurt me at the beginning lol.

[@kateorgera5907]

Also, have you ever considered doing a video on [title of show]?

[@theatrebear]

The real reason Avenue Q won over Wicked was because IT’S A MUCH BETTER SHOW!!!! I, for one, watched that telecast live and cheered like crazy when AQ won!

[@InfinitePlaylist909]

Is it just me or does this video imply Avenue Q is not a better musical than Wicked?

[@MrGabeanator]

It is absolutely unbelievable that this happened

[@EveryFairyDies]

I should have expected the puppet, and yet, I did not.

[@Sleepingsparklegirl]

Avenue Q is sure brilliance.

[@jtgd]

15:47 the power of friendship

[@lkramberg]

The bottom line is that Wicked received lukewarm initial reviews while Avenue Q got great reviews and critics are TONY voters. They vote based on perceived quality of a production not on size. Ultimately, both shows were successful.

[@mattk8460]

I do love avenue q but wicked absolutely should have won

[@TabularJoker]

0:46 WITW has peaked.