How worried should Mercedes be after F1's Japanese Grand Prix?

Was Mercedes' Japanese Grand Prix really as bad as it looked?
That and plenty more is answered on the latest episode of The Race F1 Podcast with Scott Mitchell-Malm and Mark Hughes joining host Edd Straw from Suzuka.
There's a discussion about the fierce battle behind the dominant winner including whether McLaren should be disappointed about its performance at Suzuka.
And as always, our trio tackled a host of questions from The Race Members' Club, including whether Charles Leclerc could have threatened Sergio Perez for second place had he qualified better.
00:00 - START
01:45 - How the race played out
5:16 - Did McLaren disappoint?
7:20 - What caused the strategic variance?
13:15 - Perez
15:29 - Alonso
18:57 - Should Mercedes be concerned?
23:52 - Tsunoda impresses at home
25:10 - The first lap crash
31:27 - Bottas sympathy corner
33:48 - Members’ Club questions
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#f1 #formula1 #formulaone #f12024 #therace #grandprix #mercedes #mercedesf1 #lewishamilton #georgerussell #suzuka #f1japanesegp

[@texantactical7787]

Something I think people are ignoring is that Mercedes as a team is simply not as good as people hold them up to be. They spent the whole hybrid era with a dominant car. They didn’t have to worry so much about set ups, strategy, etc. because the car was so strong. Now that the car isn’t dominant I think we’re seeing a lot more team performance flaws.

[@Ruylopez778]

Why Merc used to be good: -Sound foundation from Brawn, Lauda & Schumacher, with lots of cash from Daimler, and influence over the regulations. -They continually developed the KERS system with McLaren, and the token system shafted the other teams while Merc were getting mileage and data. Honda waited until 2017 to make major changes and Renault weren't spending enough. Merc carried over that advantage from year to year as Red Bull do now. -Mercedes had a sophisticated suspension system, and part of the 2022 regulations change was removing those systems to make it more of a challenge for the drivers and easier for smaller teams. It was the first thing Merc complained about in 2022; we need to go back to active suspension. -They lost a lot of key technical people, and they were complacent in 2021, and focused on peak performance for 2022, then too proud to write off 2022 and focus on a decent car for 2024. Instead they wasted energy complaining about flexing planks and getting the ride height changed for 2023. It's an over simplification to pretend they were only dominant because of the PU in the past, but once Red Bull had parity in the PU they were able to put Merc under pressure. Ferrari and McLaren have been working on rebuilding their technical teams for years now, and it's starting to pay off. Clearly Merc have major issues with their correlation and they can't just spend their way out of trouble anymore.

[@samudrasyarif6828]

Yeah McLaren and Aston Martin have Worse PU than the Main team just say the perfomance only in 70-90% compared to Mercedes 80-100%, but the result they can achive better than Mercedes

[@Redlingstein]

Well said

[@orkanstas5854]

The race is so smug when they talk about Alonso it’s disgusting to hear to be honest

[@michaelp4122]

Alonso > Hamilton It's a shame Alonso was never in a race winning V6. He honestly has a 200 IQ. Remember how he purposely used the runoff in Russia to gain two positions at the start of the GP? Stuff like this, China sprint race, and Australia just show pure race craft.

[@williamtanuwijaya2744]

To Mr Scott Mitchell I believe, I just can't see the signs and trends that you mentioned. The Mercedes car started the weekend with a better baseline because of the cooler track condition during practice sessions and quali, no? Not because they made progress or anything. Therefore, during the raceday when the track temperature was at the hottest, they were still going nowhere.

[@cari187]

Instead of inconsistent and slow, its just slow now. No idea how that's any better.

[@ACMEpowersports]

Because they are starting off each weekend with low fuel glory runs. Keeping fans and sponsors interested. When it matters they are nowhere.

[@seashackf1]

⁠@@cari187not slow in cooler temps, which was OP’s point. Their pace may be temp dependent, time will tell.

[@seashackf1]

Mitchell-Malm….. get it right. 😉

[@cari187]

@@seashackf1 Well I guess they can win the December to January races then 😬

[@SujithRajan]

I have never in my 20 years of watching formula one ever heard a driver volunteering to give up the position to his team mate and that too in the opening laps of the race. Also, Lewis said he did it because he had understeer! Really? It’s definitely very strange and you guys just dismissed that point completely.

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

Yeah what the hell went on there. Man did a reverse “Felipe is faster than you” lmao

[@Redlingstein]

Yup… that was a way too obvious offer….

[@alexcepile1420]

It was to save his face. he knew that Russel would pass him so he made it look he had a "problem". Everything is so easy to read with him as he isn't the sharpest tool on the grid.

[@michaelp4122]

"Alonso is faster than you" does that ring a bell?

[@Iceman46]

Not worried enough that every media outlet will stop writing articles about them constantly after every race like they are the only team that exist in their epic struggle for P7.

[@ChrispyNut]

26:00 - 'It's just the presence of Stroll that's the problem'. I have so much to say that it's too much and nothing really needs adding. 😆

[@The_ZeroLine]

I have a lot to say about how TR only talks about 🇬🇧 drivers + MB & McLaren. The other 5% is dragging Alonso through the mud or downplaying his performances. Their hate for him is sad.

[@ChrispyNut]

@@The_ZeroLine But you won't, instead you'll just whine that it's not what you want, even though you're here.

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

@@The_ZeroLine It’s a nice change from people saying he is top 3 on the grid with only “Hamilton and Verstappen”

[@YoungMaster_626]

@@The_ZeroLine… you forgot mentioned Perez they hate him as well

[@Ruylopez778]

Once you realise that Ferrari [without 2x DNS, 2x mechanical DNF, an unfair grid penalty at Las Vegas] should have finished above Merc, and McLaren were better than Merc once they had their mid season update, then you can stop pretending Merc were the second best team last year. Since 2022 pundits have been talking about how Merc are too good to not be at the front - stuck in the mindset of 2019. If people would just ignore the gaslighting & melodrama from Toto (for the shareholders) then we could just accept they're a midfield team now, and not making progress.

[@user-wy5xe6ht2m]

Lol

[@samudrasyarif6828]

and Ferrari Punishment in Australia Last Year on Sainz Car

[@quierover4locas]

That’s a lot of ifs, but I agree with you in the sense that Mercedes is a midfielder team now… having said that, Checo was in a risky position to lose P2 to Lewis last year, and there was also the episode of Verstappen shouting in panic “please no talking, I am on the limit!” when Lewis was Time Hammering in Austin. I would say they are a Consistent Midfield team with possibilities to surprise every blue moon.

[@rossrreyes]

ALPINE is the one who should be panicking

[@ACMEpowersports]

Go ahead and say it. C'mon you can do it.. They are lost. Both the team and Lewis. The seven years of dominance was impressive but when you see the lack of competitiveness for three straight cars it makes you wonder how much of their past success was superior engine power and reliability from a headstart on the initial turbo/hybrid regs.

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

It was obviously engine power. Williams basically didn’t have a chassis and were still fast as absolute fuck When Mercedes were no longer the best engine, they dropped to last and NEVER recovered

[@zzgaming29]

The significance of engine power was greatly diminished in 2017, and they still dominated for 4 years after that. Their problem is a lack of understanding of ground effects specifically. If we went back to mainly over body aero, they would still be on it, even with the immense number of experienced engineers they have lost.

[@san-joshuabarrett]

@@Duval-In-The-Wall Where do you guys get this nonsense that their dominance was only engine power and even if that's the case is something wrong with that?? In order to win you have to have some competitive edge over opponents. Talking like is so easy to build a fast and reliable engine, why couldn't the other PU manufactures build one as good then? You people just hate Mercedes and find every way to talk bad and downplay their achievements. What you are seeing now is nothing new in f1, other teams had this same luck Mercedes is having now after regs changed to end their dominance.

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

@@san-joshuabarrett Watch 2014, all the Merc powered cars had a huge edge over everyone else They dominated for 3 years, and by that point just switched their focus to aero now that they were so far ahead Engine advantage is what gave them this massive lead and forced everyone to play catch-up Also, Renault held Red Bull back SEVERELY

[@san-joshuabarrett]

@@Duval-In-The-Wall So what's wrong with having an engine advantage? Its not Mercedes fault the other teams didn't have a good engine. The other merc powered cars were good but weren't threatening Mercedes for the Championships because Mercedes had a competitive aero and advantage in PU. With RB now a have a competitive engine advantage in aero. Should we talk RBs aero advantage down like how you guys like to talk down on Mercedes PU advantage? Nothing is wrong with either. But to try and insinuate that it was all due to PU is pure disingenuous, when none of the then nor now had better aero than W11. And its not like Merc was blown out the parks by rb when it comes to aero back then. As they guy said merc had better overbody aero rb has better underbody aero. No need to try and down play the PU advantage merc had because its all part of the game and none works without the other

[@barrydavies998]

Just face the fact that Mercedes are doing vanity runs in practice for the sponsors benefit ... Peacocking the car until the real stuff hits the fan... Talking the talk but not walking the walk .... How the mighty have fallen

[@tak8261]

Fully agree on the incident, anybody claiming it was Albon’s fault either haven’t seen the footage properly or don’t understand the rules. So careless of him to assume the right side was open.

[@The_ZeroLine]

Who tries to go three-wide into that corner on the _outside_ while in a driver’s blind spot. It’s obvious no one on the TR team has ever raced. But Albon is a Brit so this reaction is hardly surprising.

[@tak8261]

@@The_ZeroLine it wasn’t three wide. you clearly haven’t watched the replays properly. Stroll was well behind Daniel so Daniel had no need to move to the right.

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

Alvin 😂 In all seriousness it was DR’s fault

[@johndansby3620]

Lance Stroll anywhere near the accident scene is the same as seeing a black cat cross in front of you…just unlucky for Daniel and Alex.

[@ilovelimpfries]

Mercedes have been getting it wrong for the past 3 years wtf. 2014 is basically the result of 3 years of Brawn meticulous planning. It took a major rule change to undo the momentum/advantage that mercedes had since 2014. The finance guy is good for stability which is what merc need after 2014, but to dominate they need a revolutionary guy like Brawn.

[@aarongreen121]

Is this a Horner burner account? What I like about your comment is that you've managed to arrive at that point of view all of your own volition. And in no way have you parroted what someone else has said, someone who happens to work in the paddock....

[@hankrearden5460]

The thing is Merc doesn't have the people in place to understand ground effect rules. This is clear, in 2014 it was far more about the engine than the aero and they held that advantage for 8 years.

[@evilzzzability]

Even the 2021 car missed the target and was behind for 2/3rds of the season.

[@The_ZeroLine]

I’ve said this 100k times. Toto and Lowe coasted off of Brawn’s hard work with the aid of amazing development drivers (MSC and Nico) + the best engine ever.

[@aarongreen121]

@@evilzzzability more because the regs got changed to hamstrung them. They had a high rake car and FIA/F1 made it so that the lower rake car's (ie Red Bull) wouldn't be at such a disadvantage. That's pretty well known.

[@urbanstrencan]

Was really surprised by Ferrari pace, Sainz is collecting get me points for 2025 😂😊

[@travispherson7519]

Maybe the Mercedes drivers are not as fast in the real world as they are in the virtual world?

[@Redlingstein]

Lol

[@tunisiandom9318]

9:27 Yes Sainz was held up by Norris and Charles wasn't held by Piastri ...

[@LionAndALamb]

The car had decent race pace. They obviously need work on Quali pace. Also, the fact that they completely missed on the tire and strategy calls is a head scratcher, but not all that unusual for Merc to get it completely wrong a couple of times during a season.

[@Redlingstein]

They drove that Merc to the max…. THATS their issue… this is their maximum… the others werent driving on their maximum, RBR, Ferrari,…. Merc are truly further behind than ppl say they are

[@Loudeboss]

Bitterness about Alonso is lame - grow up lads

[@Marko-od7eb]

Yep, in every podcast they are downplaying his success.

[@Loudeboss]

​@@Marko-od7eb Seems even more disingenuous given they have such a close working relationship with the drivers, interviewing them week in week out

[@Marko-od7eb]

@@Loudeboss And that is the reason why Alonso gave 58 min long interview to the "High Performance" podcast and not to "The Race".

[@Loudeboss]

@@Marko-od7eb Karma ehe

[@Torta--is--PLUR]

Mercedes is having a 5 alarm fire level of panic. Hamilton was 48 seconds behind Max while he was cruising at 80-90% and Hammy was flat out the entire time. They will finish 5th in constructors if Stroll gets his head out of his daddys ass and finishes 8th where he should. Papa Stroll has spent insane amounts of money just to watch lance piss it away like he doesn't even want to be there. He has no drive and doesn't care if he finishes 18th or 5th. When he can't be fired he knows he doesn't have to try any harder than what's required to get around track and not crash...oh wait lololol nevermind that last one

[@wesmanpipes9430]

Both Merc drivers were tire saving, not driving flat out. They were the only ones really attempting a one stop, since they went to hards at the restart.

[@connorclarke1218]

@@wesmanpipes9430nobody in an F1 race has ever drove flat out so I don’t think that’s what he meant. I would guess Lewis and George were pushing harder than Max likely the entire race. Yes he had the lead and was coasting but that’s the point. He pulls out the fastest lap late into the stint of hards, there’s just a night and day difference between those cars right now

[@wesmanpipes9430]

@@connorclarke1218 Most race weekends with relatively the same strategy amongst all cars, I would say that Mercedes probably drives closer to the limit because they have to. At Suzuka they were extending their runs on the hards therefore they werent likely able to push anywhere near as hard or their tires would fall off ruining their startegy.

[@connorclarke1218]

@@wesmanpipes9430 I agree. They have the worst car right now between Ferrari and Mclaren. They also have two of the best drivers, some have said the best driving pair overall in terms of talent.

[@Redlingstein]

Exactly!

[@RuboStars]

When will the Race stop talking about Mercedes like they are the only team that exist? Panic? They're a midfield team, and thats where they are. Its ALPINE that should be panicking!!

[@Theotheradamyouknow]

Unfortunately

[@The_ZeroLine]

Alonso’s needs to be his own salesman because the British dominated media totally ignores him, unless they have an opportunity to drag him through the mud. See: TR

[@victormiguelmontero136]

Its been like this since 2007, nothing has changed

[@tsheposeeletso6475]

What is the one thing RB is doing so much better than all other teams that they just can’t figure out

[@The_ZeroLine]

Newey.

[@user-wy5xe6ht2m]

MV and Newey

[@Ruylopez778]

Your first mistake is pretending there is "one thing"

[@The_ZeroLine]

@@user-wy5xe6ht2m Max, is amazing but he’d be fishing in third or worse every race too if he wasn’t in the Red Bull. Adrian Newey’s chassis, even when they didn’t win (unreliability or poor PU), have been the fastest on the grid nearly every year since literally 1992. And his Leyton House when first introduced it in the late ‘80s was immediately copied by nearly all the other teams and introduced most of the features we now think of as standard to every chassis.

[@user-wy5xe6ht2m]

​@@The_ZeroLine❄️❄️❄️👋

[@jimpolk]

Seriously concerned.

[@fintonmainz7845]

10 teams on the grid and you're obsessed with the team carring the "mercedes" label. It's not as if they're an old team. They are a rebadged Brawn F1 team. Here today. Gone tomorrow

[@The_ZeroLine]

Nearly all TR talks about is 🇬🇧 focused topics: 50% Merc, Lewis + George; 25% McLaren & Lando; 20% Ferrari and RBR; 5% dragging Alonso through the mud or ignoring him.

[@nathanmadox3364]

I feel so bad for GR. As soon as he gets there Merc looses their cool and never got it back. He deserved better and probably would beat LH at this point in a winning car

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

Very unlucky for him, he genuinely would have been able to fight for championships against Hamilton if his career started 2-3 years earlier

[@samudrasyarif6828]

@@Duval-In-The-Wall I think Hamilton using back hand deal to stop Mercedes Recrute Russel earlyier than her contract

[@MrSniperfox29]

@@samudrasyarif6828 To be fair, Williams were the main obstacle in Russell moving teams, as they shocked Mercedes by actually sticking to the original contract and not backing down. This is why Bottas was only given new deals after Russell was confirmed by Williams. While I believe Hammy definitely preferred Bottas, I doubt he had any input in Russell coming in.

[@AJ-zy9jf]

Williams screwing over Logan on the pit stop hasn’t been talked about at all. The kid had to push extra hard to just catch up. Literally went into the pits at p12 and left at p16.

[@swordsman1137]

Yeah, Logan have decent race. The strategy and pit stop failed him

[@jordza2k11]

Ah you love to see the struggles

[@darensavy5014]

Its now 3 years when i called out Merc never winning a championship again for many decades! As a fan of Motorsport in general why do the pundits/journalists/speakers , continue to question Mercs performance like there a top team that should be winning! My opinion to all is to find out WHY Merc won 8 Championship in a row! I know and thats why i said what i said about Merc. Like Lewis going to Ferrari, seriously this will be a fundamental mistake that will be embarrassly spoken about for decades to come. Lewis wont win a race let alone beat Charles , nor a championship & $100 million 🤬 up!

[@f.kieranfinney457]

It’s not a sporting decision it’s a branding exercise. And it’s already been a success and paid for itself 10X over.

[@abutalibalikazmi4277]

Very

[@reesilva1]

video please

[@stevepiccinnin1157]

Ferrari’s coming!

[@WRXMAN-ms2mm]

Ferrari is coming? Ferrari was how far behind Sergio? 8 seconds, not within DRS . And how far behind Max? 20 .9 seconds, say 21 seconds or almost the time for a pit stop. Respectfully that is crawling after RB. Are they better yes but RB needs to consistently DNF at this point for Ferrari, McLaren, and AM to win. Mercedes isn’t even in the picture. Wish it wasn’t so and I like RB. Am not a super fan but this is supposed to be racing, not driving off into the distance and not challenged on race day.

[@stevepiccinnin1157]

@@WRXMAN-ms2mm yes they are crawling still, but they’re still coming

[@Redlingstein]

They have been coming for over 15 years now….

[@stevepiccinnin1157]

@@Redlingstein they’re coming, this time feels different, I know I know , but if it had been during Binottos tenure , I would’ve agreed with you.

[@WRXMAN-ms2mm]

@@Redlingstein ...... taking one step forward then two steps back, then one step forward then three steps back. With a touch of fuel delivery shenanigans mixed in for good measure.

[@feisty8]

The domination era of Mercs is OVER ... it doesn't matter what they do/change, it ain't coming back soon .. also now you know why Hamilton left.

[@backupdancer3720]

Mercedes fans: James Allison will save us! He wasn't involved in the W13! (He was) James Allison: (Homer Simpson GIF)

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

Lmao

[@f.kieranfinney457]

It seems so clear that the concept, the entire way of thinking about these GFX era cars at Merc is Allison’s mess. Elliot’s mistake was not resisting enough and forcing a complete change. Toto has identified the wrong targets and endorsed the wrong people. If he wasn’t an owner his job would be in jeopardy.

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

@@f.kieranfinney457 Toto got it horribly wrong, but honestly I could have predicted that after that the “everyone has a target on their back” bit Can’t imagine morale was helped by Hamilton bashing the car every 20 seconds of this rule change

[@nigelking2484]

Has Logan lost his China race because of Alex's crash again?

[@Redlingstein]

No the chassis is being repared

[@bladefiser2242]

I’ve made jokes at the beginning of the year about Mercedes potential fall to midfield mediocrity and thought I would enjoy it, it’s just sad though

[@Ruylopez778]

Yeah, it should be funny to laugh at them, but actually iI'm just apathetic. Despite how smug they used to be, I almost feel sorry for them at this point.

[@paullavallee1631]

Time for a complete refit of the Merc team

[@royshroud9536]

Crapping their shorts ! But maybe Ferrari should be equally concerned after signing slow Hamilton!

[@tjantilag]

Best his team mate in qualifying and made up for being under cut twice and behind by 9 seconds to be under 2 at the end.

[@soundscape26]

Fast or slow they know exactly what they are getting for 2025. He finished P3 last season, he's basically the same driver.

[@royshroud9536]

@@soundscape26 Has he won recently? Note recently. Sainz is burning up the competition but he's getting dumped.

[@khalidmartie5854]

Its almost ALMOST like the Ferrari is the 2nd fastest car and the Mercedes an absolute tractor............ oh wait

[@KeenJT]

The contract renewal chat was great - Marko is an outright savage

[@MrSniperfox29]

Honestly I think Marko is pissed off Perez is doing what he needs to do because if he keeps finishing 2nd there will be no legitimate reason not to offer him a new deal. I also think Horner is backing Perez and this obviously greatly annoys him.

[@Redlingstein]

@@MrSniperfox29yup, Marko wants Carlos…cos he wants to give Horner issues between the drivers… he wants to make Horners job more difficult lol

[@The_ZeroLine]

Mercedes and British drivers are the only thing you guys EVER seem to talk about. Well, unless you have a chance to slander Fernando. That’s your favorite. How worried should Merc be that George clearly isn’t a WDC caliber driver should be a topic you guys address. But I doubt that would ever happen.

[@leroybutcher]

What have Ferrari done🫣 getting rid of their best driver🤔

[@The_ZeroLine]

lol, people get hyped over a tiny sample size of races. Carlos was a disaster in 2022 when the car was at its best.

[@leroybutcher]

@@The_ZeroLine maybe in the early part of season of 2022 before he got to grips with the car and since then has been the only challenger to Red Bull in both 2023 AND 2024 so far mate!

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

When they built a car good enough to compete for regular wins, who was there fighting Max? Hint: It wasn’t Sainz

[@Duval-In-The-Wall]

@@leroybutcher “The only challenger to Red Bull” 7th in the standings How much of last season did you watch 😂

[@The_ZeroLine]

@@leroybutcher The only challenger? CL is 47-27 in head-to-head quali w/CS & outscored him every season so far, right? Don’t get me wrong, Sainz is fantastic + incredibly evenly matched with Leclerc, but it’s silly to act like either has any major edge. Sainz has much better race craft and Leclerc has better ultimate pace. When a car is designed to be driver friendly, Sainz excels. When a car is designed to be as fast as possible (pointy front end), Leclerc excels.

[@The_ZeroLine]

Who tries to go three-wide into that corner on the _outside_ while in a driver’s blind spot? Albon put himself in a really dumb position, but he’s 🇬🇧 so oc they’ll defend him.

[@f.kieranfinney457]

I think Daniel has 60% of the blame there.

[@user-wy5xe6ht2m]

​@@f.kieranfinney457😭😭🤣

[@user-wy5xe6ht2m]

​@@f.kieranfinney457🇬🇧😂

[@evilzzzability]

Mercedes suck.

[@frogandspanner]

Mercedes should be delighted to be getting rid of the jewel-rattling mid-Atlantic liability that is Hamilton, who will drag down Ferrari. Mercedes previously had an engine advantage, but lost key staff to RBP with the Honda threatened withdrawal. Not very clever. They failed to attract a top aerodynamicist for the shift from engine/power train to aerodynamics. Car = thermodynamics + aerodynamics (T + A) Mercedes reduced T without increasing A. They have only themselves to blame.

[@deepblue3741]

Give it a rest

[@agux0]

You sad man, y u hav to be mad

[@alankillian4962]

"Fix your G-Damn car."

[@frogandspanner]

@@agux0 Yes - I am very, very angry at Hamilton's delusions of his own ability. Over the last two years he has tried to instruct his engineers on engineering. He is the Michael Jackson of F1 - a hydroponically grown driver, and all he can do is drive a car. Like Jackson with music he can use his skill _extremely_ well, but that's all. Had he just got into the car and driven it to the best of his ability I'd have admired that, but when he became delusional I got fed up with the horse trying to design the cart.

[@aleksavijatovic8834]

@@frogandspanner Hamilton is a moron but he is not the reason why Mercedes is struggling, its Toto’s fault, he is the one to blame, he should have hired new engineers and chief techincian instead being obsessed with Red Bull

[@michaelc821]

Worse than last year. Good thing Lewis is leaving in October.

[@Redlingstein]

December you mean

[@michaelc821]

@@Redlingstein Sorry, December..

[@rz5090]

Seems like Mercedes has been going downhill since Nikki Lauder died. Just sayin