HS249 Herbert Junior Mk2 surface grinder Part 11- fitting saddle nut

A series on restoring my latest machine - a Herbert Junior Mk2 surface grinder.

[@mftmachining]

Good job, Paul. Just a little tip from the toolmaker: You can chop of the upper half of your drill bit and resharpen it. The shortend drill will become much stiffer. Thats not only because of its reduced size, its mainly because the web gets much thicker the further you go up. I made myself a complete set of those drills of old used ones. Of course, its a little bit more work of thinning the web down, but worth the effort. Works great. Regards from Germany

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you mftm. Some time ago I got a comment recommending a set of cobalt stub drills but not on my budget. Your idea sounds cheaper, if I could get my Drill Doctor to work reliably. Sometimes it puts on a good rake (relief angle) and other times none. Depends on both the drill diameter and the speed of the flutes (flute helix rate). Cheers Paul

[@camillosteuss]

@@HaxbyShed Oh, cobalt drills are the best, carbide 3 flute drills notwithstanding... And even cobalt 3 fluters are ridiculous, but a good set of cobalt drills in regular 2 flute arrangement is among the best things if you can properly sharpen them again... Much less heat concerns, harder, better cutting, longer lasting, overall just a great upgrade from regular hss drills... I get drills one by one, and taps and other such stuff, and i always go for 10% cobalt or more if available... Very toxic to inhale grinding dust from, but all grinding dust is bad, so it`s like saying that a bigger bullet to the head is somehow worse than a small one... Sure, technically, but from a general consensus, all of them are bad... Carbide on the other hand is more tricky... almost machine exclusive in case of taps... run it by hand and you break it... `s a vicious animal that... But you should really consider getting cobalt drills one by one or in pairs as you need them... I like to get a few at once, just to appease my insanity, but getting a set is just stupid... Get one, as other projects come by, get the others as you ``need`` them...

[@TheAyrCaveShop]

One of those task that looks simple.....and then Worked out good. Cheers Paul !

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you Dean. 👍

[@russellwall1964]

“Nervous, are you?” Well, yes!!! I certainly would be. I’ve messed up plenty of jobs by breaking a tap after much painstaking work. You did well!!

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Russell, yes I had to feel my way with those taps but drilling on the angle greatly reduced the drill run-off I think, and hence reduced the risk quite a bit. Maybe that's why they were angled when the thing was made. Cheers

[@Workshopfriend]

Thanks for sharing the details of this challenge. Looks secure to me!

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Clive, a frequent commenter here recently bought a geared pillar drill recently so I pointed him to your channel. He said he would have a look. Cheers.

[@Workshopfriend]

@@HaxbyShed Thanks, Paul.

[@jakebronger3568]

Hj. Its normal when putting rework scotch keys in to put them in a new place, and I think you would have got a better result by starting at 90* yes the drill often runs of to the soft side. All the the best, you are doing a good job.

[@bobuilt10]

I was about to say the same. This is what is known as functional engineer rather than precision. It fulfills the task, therfore good enough.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Jake, yes I agree and with hindsight I would have found a firmer fixing and used a slot drill at 90. Cheers

[@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian]

Hi Paul. That was brave. It could so easily have gone so wrong in many ways. Drilling between two different metals is not for the faint hearted. I was very nervous when you were tapping. The chance of a tap breaking was so high. Well done indeed. You deserve a cup of tea ☕️ 👏👏👍😀

[@HaxbyShed]

Cheers Andrew 👍

[@opieshomeshop]

I think you're right. Bit running off is a thing and it drives me nuts. Also, when I was growing up and watching my dad in the shop, he would encounter stuck things all the time and I noticed his method of getting things unstuck was cussing, yelling, throwing tools and kicking things and just like that, the thing would be unstuck. Might be worth a try some time.. 🤣

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Opie, a video camera 'witness' is very inhibiting when you really want to have an uncontrolled meltdown. Cheers

[@opieshomeshop]

@@HaxbyShed HA HA HA! Yes indeed.. You should watch American choppers. LOL.

[@TheAyrCaveShop]

😂😂

[@henrikhv5084]

From my point of view, you do great, and I also learn a ton from your videos. Thank you. Cheers from Denmark

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Henrik, thank you for your support. People are always interested where things are made, and particularly react if they are 'Asian import'. In a later video I found something made in Demark / Danmark. Not sure when I will run that video, probably in 3 or 4 weeks from now. Cheers

[@Rustinox]

And that's how a simple job becomes a journey... :)

[@HaxbyShed]

Indeed. I was thinking how jobs take a long time the first time but then get quicker and quicker with experience. It's the cost of experience, but the only way to start the journey is just to 'just do it', as you say. Cheers

[@carlwilson1772]

Hello Paul. That was a bit of a pain. I've had quite a few moments like that - when the new nut got stuck in the tube - when you think all your hard work has been wasted. I think the tube being tapered and the angled drillings are all just artefacts of production, none of them intentional. A slot drill might have worked better as others have said. There are lots of things like what you saw on the Harrison Mill - you wonder why they did it that way. Often it's because you are looking at a bodge! I think you did superbly to persevere and get it done. I think the biggest challenge in the home workshop is not to lose heart!

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Carl, indeed many times I've been a couple of days into shooting a video and the sickening feeling comes on "this is going nowhere" or turns out to be far more complex - "how do I rescue anything from this?" but then normally the next day brings a fresh idea and sometimes those are the best vids. My next was like that. Cheers

[@janismekss]

That was great advice and method 😁

[@HaxbyShed]

Thank you Sir. 👍

[@eyuptony]

Good result with the setup you've got Paul. That new nut isn't going anywhere. Cheers Tony

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks Tony. Next job is to sort out the lubrication on that screw so the new nut does not wear prematurely (I think lack of oil was an issue). Cheers.

[@paulhewitt1488]

Great job , I would assume that these are the types of jobs where if you think too much about what transpired during the original manufacturing process you not only doubt your decisions but you are prone to make mistakes. It ended well , testimony to your skill and diligence. 👏👏👍👍

[@HaxbyShed]

I agree Paul, sometimes I tend to look for complexities which are not there. If I'd had a box of bronze nuts I'd have tried one idea and if that did not work I'd just reach for another nut. But there was only one nut, too precious to risk on a new idea. Cheers.

[@StuartsShed]

I like that you replicated the old approach. Some good ideas in the comments here regarding loctite and such - all valid. I wonder though, if the idea of the angled holes is to prevent the lock screws coming loose from the constant reversing load on the leadscrew nut. I don’t know - just an idea. Straight in screws could work loose - angled threads would tend not to twist the same.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Stuart, I think you are probably right, and angled drilling would also reduce the run-out of the drill as soon it would be drilling into bronze only. I'm always inclined to think the fitters who'd done it 500 times knew more than me. There are often 'hidden reasons' with these things, when doing it for the first time. Cheers

[@bostedtap8399]

Definitely drill wander (Dutch Pin) as many have commented, drill just wanted to follow the softer material, been there etc. Great job

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi John, I'm still flip-floppin between wander and deliberate. Being on the angle gets it into bronze-only and less drill wander. Saves breaking taps perhaps. Cheers

[@bostedtap8399]

@@HaxbyShed May I suggest a test?, my money is till on "Wander", can be avoided using stub drills.

[@camillosteuss]

@@bostedtap8399 i would say reduced, rather than avoided... a stub drill is still just a piece of steel, more rigid in some regards maybe, but it will still behave similar, even with accounted for stiffness... Even a carbide drill would wonder a bit, it`s just the nature of materials... You could always go with a 3 flute carbide drill which is as rigid as they come and it would still want to move into the softer stuff, microscopically really, but the nature of materials and operations can only be lessened... If you want to do this right, you would have to EDM this... All cutting operations will face this issue to some degree, EDM does not contact anything, thus has no deflection... EDM is equality dispensing machine in that it dispenses equal obliteration to any material set up under the electrode... As long as the material is conductive, of course...

[@bostedtap8399]

@@camillosteuss I agree, ref reduced, rather than avoided.

[@swanvalleymachineshop]

Nice one . Wow , you get Roo barb ! I love it but not had it for years as the boss does not like it ! Cheers 👍

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Max, my wife makes rhubarb chutney. I might have guessed there on the sunny side of the planet you would call in Roobarb 🤣

[@swanvalleymachineshop]

@@HaxbyShed Lol , forgot how to spell it !!!

[@philhermetic]

Hi Paul, a very difficult job, but you were tested and not found wanting! My friend Richard used to use a milling cutter to make holes for what he called “dutch keys” and feed down very slowly and always perpendicular. The original angle is due to run off, toughened steel and pb? No contest! Only other way would be to put a milling cutter in the lathe chuck and mount the job on the saddle. I was puckering during the tapping! Phil

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Phil, with hindsight a slot drill fixed in the horizontal spindle on the mill would have allowed 'end drilling', if I laid the work down on a couple of v blocks. Seems obvious now but I was just nervous of finding some unknown issue if I did not follow the original 'design'. It's in the memory bank for next time. Cheers

[@be007]

your end conclusion was right. next time maybe better try a mill instead of a drill to make the hole,s, they dont wonder that much, much stiffer/rigid. cheers ben.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Ben, I did try a slot drill in the chuck on the pillar drill but there was just too much wobble and flex. With hindsight, what I should have done was take the vertical head off the Mill and use a slot drill horizontally fixed in the horizontal spindle. Couple of V blocks clamped to the table would have held it. Would have made a much better job, but I'm always inclined to presume that the 'old guys' in the factory knew better than me especially on a quality machine like my grinder. Cheers

[@billdoodson4232]

I'd suggest that those holes were originally drilled by hand. Probable given to an apprentice to do. I don't know if you had enough space to go up to M6 grub screws. If you had, you could have gone straight down using an M5 end mill and tapped it M6. I'm really looking forward to seeing the grinder up and running Paul.

[@HaxbyShed]

It won't be too long Bill. I'm not stringing it out, but I'm not rushing either. I want it to be right. Cheers

[@billdoodson4232]

@HaxbyShed I've only just levelled the lathe and mill this week. Hopefully, the surface grinder will be this weekend; I'll then need to sort out the coolant and dust extraction for it, so I may be grinding around a similar time.

[@graedonmunro1793]

best result from that situation. job done!!

[@HaxbyShed]

Thanks Graedon. 👍

[@alancharie9608]

the drill just wandered off as the brass is softer than the steel part

[@markneedham4606]

Simple hey, not an intentional angle, drill just took the easy path.😊

[@Rustinox]

I second that.

[@HaxbyShed]

Yes it does seem like that Alan. Cheers

[@Warped65er]

Great outcome, and thx for the vid.

[@HaxbyShed]

Cheers 👍

[@machineshopatthebottomofth3213]

Great job. Alway a bum clenching moment drilling into different hardness materials. I think you have the original manufacturers too much credit. The holes were probably just drilled with a pistol drill by eye!

[@HaxbyShed]

I like to think the best of people, until proved otherwise 😉 You are probably right. Cheers

[@9traktor]

Very interesting! But nowadays I would prefer to glue the bronce nut into the spindle (e.g. Loctite, Omnifit, etc.). It will stay for ever.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi 9traktor yes I could have used Loctite but maybe that would be a problem for the next person one day, if they have to replace the nut. Cheers

[@julias-shed]

Didn’t know paragon did spray cans that’s good to know. 😀 I don’t miss my old Rapidor it was worn out though. I find the bandsaw is more useful albeit nowhere near the same quality.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Julia I think there is a lot to be said for bandsaws. I just like the nostalgia of the Rapidor because I used one when I was a lad of 16-17. Cheers

[@julias-shed]

@@HaxbyShed I quite liked the nodding donkey aspect but I’m really tight for space in the workshop and the bandsaw just ticks more boxes 😀

[@stevenperks7150]

Always trim your bush to make it look nicer! 😂

[@HaxbyShed]

Perhaps not advice I will use myself, but I will pass it on. 😁

[@chrisstephens6673]

As others have said it was probably just drill wander but I think I would have just taken advantage of modern technology and used a retainer Loctite., but whatbyou did will see you out and probably the next owner too.😂

[@HaxbyShed]

Yes Chris, I am just the current keeper, pending the next keeper one day. Like my old house. Cheers

[@garthdaddy7438]

I would have thought a short grub screw would have done the job as well?

[@SeanBZA]

Even just take the original thread, run a 4mm ball mill to remove most of the thread, and mill a semi matching slot on the nut. Then put in, and take some copper wire 4mm diameter, anneal it, and cut a length just a little longer, and tap into the hole, and use a punch to set it at the top, so it fills the gap. Will be soft, but work harden, and lock the nut into there very firmly.

[@HaxbyShed]

Maybe it would Garth. Cheers

[@dcraft1234]

Maybe they were worried about wall thickness if they went straight in.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi, it's possible that drilling straight in would just break the drill with run-off so they drilled on the angle to avoid that problem. Cheers

[@SeanBZA]

Would simply have taken the nut and sanded it slightly, and the shaft the same, and then frozen the nut, and heated the steel, and used some loctite to make it a interference fit with no need for any locking otherwise.

[@HaxbyShed]

Hi Sean, I'm always thinking about the next owner so I'm always a bit wary of loctite on a job like that but I take your point. Cheers

[@SeanBZA]

@@HaxbyShed Next owner will see the tight fit and use a little heat anyway, so breaking the hold.

[@Calligraphybooster]

Hi. Couldn’t you have gotten the stuck nut out by dropping a piece of stock down the bore and then screw it out with its own screw pushing against that piece of stock?

[@HaxbyShed]

Maybe, the nut is about 24mm outer and 11mm inner. I could drop a 10mm rod down the hole but I'm not sure it would work. But you have given me an idea, perhaps I could have filled the cavity with sand or something and screwed down on that. Hard packed sand might have done the trick. Thanks for the idea. Cheers

[@LockdownElectronics]

Yep was cringing when you were tapping!

[@HaxbyShed]

So was I! 😧