HUB VS MID DRIVE | Choosing the Best Electric Bike Motor

[@Robtj95]

Great video! You have got to love the simplicity of the hub drive systems, but I love the performance of a mid drive. It's been a while since I've ridden a hub drive motor, how close do you think they are to a mid drive in terms of control and performance?

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Thanks, I would say that Mid Drive's are the status quo for control and performance. Which is why we exclusively see them on eMTB's. That being said, there are tech innovations in the last few years that have made hub drive systems more competitive in regards to natural pedaling feel, control, performance...

[@Instantpower332]

I have been a motorcycle owner and rider for years. Now do to people simply not caring about turning in front of you and showing they come 1st. I gave that up, my wife’s very happy. I wrote that about the MokWheel months ago and actually purchased the Magicycle Deer full suspension. She a heavy girl but built beautiful and has a lot of power. I went with the Hub motor because of my background on motorcycles and having a throttle. Plus living in New England we have lots a large hills. Being able to hit the throttle instead of have to start peddling was the game changer for me. It’s funny as I have been wondering if I should have gotten a bike with Torque/ midrive or hub. Just a week or so ago I met a couple who both had very expensive Mid drives. Both tried my Magicycle Deer and both wanted to trade right there. Both of there bikes were around $6,500. I could see why his wife maybe she’s got knee problems . But him I guess it really depends on what kind of riding and where you ride. My wife’s using a Lectric 2.0 I ordered the shock seat post and gel seat will she ride more then around our Dead End my guess no. Me I’m always ready and watching KZbin on the new E bikes. Would enjoy your feedback…

[@ToddEdmondson]

I ride about 80km a day to work and back with a co-worker and his hub motor. I have a mid drive and it's night and day. My setup is 750W and 52V on a hybrid urban commuter.

[@WooshaBaloo]

@@ToddEdmondsonhi. I don’t own a bike yet but am looking. In what way are they night and day please?

[@amitandutube]

@@ToddEdmondsonin what way is it night and day? And is there any scenario where you’d say a hub drive e-bike is better than a mid drive one ?

[@JethroXP]

I own both a 750 watt geared rear hub drive and a 1000 watt mid-drive. The hub drive is simple and fun, super accessible for anyone, particularly non-cyclists. I live in a hilly area and the hub drive has done just fine, even on hills as steep as 16%, though I have to pedal to help on the steeper hills. The mid-drive is just a beast, it can make the 16% grade hill feel like it’s flat, but it requires you to work the gears and know how to work them. If you are new to cycling or consider yourself a casual rider a hub drive is probably best. If you need high performance and do lots of hill climbing, which means you are also probably an experienced cyclist, the mid-drive is probably best. Hub drives are generally less expensive too.

[@cadriver2570]

What bike uses a 1000 watt mid drive? That must be a torque monster.

[@Andorski]

​@@cadriver2570A lot of people who do ebikes conversions go for +1000W motors.

[@all-to]

What percentage gear ratio is fitted to the hub drive? Isn't it much less than the gear ratio used for mid-drive? Isn't that why it's harder to climb the hill?

[@deepakgurung3853]

Don't compare 750w to 1000w

[@chandleredwards]

My 1000w mid chews chains and the 160NM torque snapped the propriatary motor mount. Much higher maintenance than the hub motors.

[@simonjohnhinton1938]

A good tip if you have those juliet connectors to the hub motor is to coat the pins with some dielectric grease. The reason is the plug can get warm and as it cools can form moisture on the pins leading to corrosion and eventual failure.

[@mmmmosaic]

One perk of the regenerative braking that he failed to mention is that is saves a good amount on brake pads.

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

That is something to note for direct drive hub motors. That being said, most brands have moved towards Geared hub motors or mid drive systems.

[@brianbassett4379]

True. The catch is that few motors offer regen, and even those that do are horribly inefficient. There isn't enough weight on an average bike to warrant the cost. - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6aXp3p7r86Vr5o

[@mr.techie8565]

2 things I must point out: A direct-drive hub motor is harder to pedal without assist Some mid-drives have cadence sensors, such as the Bafang BBS02

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Thanks, Direct drives can be more difficult to pedal for sure. Overall bike weight and limited gears are a major component to that as well. Great notes about the Bafang, most mid drive motors have many sensors beyond the torque sensor, including a cadence sensor. And as of recent, we're starting to see a few hub drive ebikes with torque sensors.

[@jbaccanalia]

Finally an honest comparison without "those are bad" .

[@HerrenGamingNews]

The cool thing about hub drive is having AWD! My Vamoose Super Mammoth 500w has AWD it's so nice to have on a E-Fatbike because I can go up Icey hills easier and through deep snow with ease though I did overheat my motor a few times but in -20 it doesn't take long to cool off. I've also been through ravine paths at at 20km/hr which is thrilling!

[@tharpeaddy]

So both are equally just as good Good to know I honestly never thought about that lol

[@ceayabikes]

Great video! The advantage of a mid-mounted motor is that it makes better use of the ebike's sporty attributes, and has higher torque than a rear hub motor at the same power value, making it more suitable for putting on a mountain bike. But the price is high. Rear motors have the advantage of strong power output, but at a cost-effective price. The disadvantage is that it doesn't have the perfect torque like a mid-mounted motor, and is more suitable for use in urban commuting, or ebikes that don't require as high a level of sporting attributes. According to our experience in selling ebikes, more users choose rear hub motors, the main reason is that this type of ebike is cheaper, the repair and maintenance cost is relatively low, but the power performance is also enough to cope with the daily use, but also to meet the common off-road activities on the ebike power needs. Obviously for professional cycling sports enthusiasts, a mid-mounted motor is the best choice. And for regular commuter use, or those who don't require much in the way of sporty performance, a rear hub motor is the cost-effective option.

[@tricolor6184]

Sabe dizer se é possivel instalar um acelerador em um motor MIDI DRIVE ????? obrigado

[@captamerica3693]

in theory, you are correct in reality the hub motor if properly powered through a good controller will do everything that mid mount will do and Mouer and it’ll do it with less cost and way less maintenance. my motor will do wheelies it’ll go up any hill effortlessly without paddling and 40,000 miles. I’ve never touched it and I have my original chain.

[@saltydog888]

I have a proprietary mid drive 85Nm. Absolutely fantastic off road bush trails and climbing. Just built a 1500w rear hub which is super fast and fun but purely an A-B bike. There’re both great.

[@planesail1956]

sensible info with no waffle , thanks .

[@dalvenable331]

I have built over 50 E-bikes of all types and find that what you want will serve best. both systems are great and both have their pro and cons but those are generally based on how you the individual ride. If I was building an off road/ hunting/ fishing bike there is no doubt I am using a mid drive system . If I am in the city or country roads and streets , give me a rear hub direct drive system but the heart of all E-bike is the battery My personal favorite being a 48 volt 20ah 1600 - 2000 watt battery. Not to heavy, good range and power. And for me Cheap!!!! I can normally build a 48 volt 1500 watt bike to will go 35 to 40 mph for 30 miles or 100 miles on PAS and cost like $800.00. I have had folks buy my personal bikes from under me which is fine I have too many of them... wife thinks.

[@russellm7530]

I agree. I've only ever had a rear hub drive but I've mainly used it for around town and using it as a all around do anything bike like hauling cargo, up and down hills. And I do prefer my 48 volt 20 AH Samsung cell battery over a couple of 10.5 AH batteries I have.

[@BruceTheSniper]

The easiest way to compare is a hubdrive = automatic and middrive = stickshift, they both have their pros and cons.

[@NathanScott-lq8vu]

Everyone's case is different. For me: urban/suburban environment, mix of flat/hills, high winds. urban food delivery and long distance commuting. both bikes are converted single-speeds, use shimano nexus 3 internal hubs for gears. I have bafang 48v geared front hub and a BBS02 middrive, both setup as throttle only. As others have said, the hub is more direct, simpler, probably better for newer riders. But I find the hub less efficient for longer commuting and more noisy. The mid drive, you need to work the gears (I use 3 speed internal hubs, so it's easy), but once you get used to it, I think the mid drive uses less energy per km, once you get up to the higher gear, your motor is working less to help propel you. May work the chain/cogs more, but stock chains/cogs are cheap, I also use a single speed chain, there are no actual cog changes, so it is just not a factor. For me, the mid-drive is superior, I would not have said that the first couple of weeks as I was transitioning from a hub, but after 6 months, I do not like the front-hub any more.

[@mikebeattie976]

I have both and I prefer the mid drive of the two

[@surfyogi]

Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.

[@captamerica3693]

I can go up any hill doing a wheelie with my hub motor and I can do it without being afraid to break my chain and break my nuts in the process like I’ve done on my mid motor

[@edhyunsoolee2683]

It;s really hard to decide which one is right for me when my budget is keep going up the more I do research,,, Most reviews and comparisons are made under bike's spec itself only w/ wide open area either on flat or hills. However, including myself, those who live in heavy traffic city dealing w/ cars, signals and bunch people each block that requires stopping and starting on a frequent basis, HUB-motor might be more suited w/ throttle combo unless you want to stress yourself shifting gear constantly. But then again there is IGH which I'm new about

[@verocimil]

Great explanation and overview, thanks!

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Glad it was helpful!

[@brucepoole8552]

Im happy with my rear hub bike, very good quality at 1400$, mid drive was at least 2,500$, and up, And with throttle only it helps getting started in certain conditions.

[@TheAbel66]

Thank you for the info I better understand

[@davidanderson8489]

Great info. I am just learning and disabled i wondering if they make mid drive trikes

[@cadriver2570]

Extremely well balanced video.

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Much appreciated!

[@makinitup672]

Thankyou, Super... quick over view. As I have already chosen ein 750 Bosch power plant with ein 750 watt battery to match that brings me up n down our humble mountain ten times with 39 watts left to spare. It came with monster mountain trail tires und rims, but Ein carbon fiber frame to cut the weight of the 29 zoll monster wheels n tires that I have no doubt will get me up n down the mount in snow, Less cold mountain boredom surely.. ; ). It was still very informative as we still need another for meine Frau now. We live in the Mountains of Bavaria Germany, as I missed the advice of the rear hub braking via the rear hub motor on down hills. I have subscribed to keep me better informed. Not super pleased with our salesman given your important info, but, is an awesome ride with all the bells n whistles just the same. Crazy high end prices on these things, but, Also great fun right out in our barn. Fly kids Trailor for the grand kinde. Large companies here have pairing up with E-Bike sellers concerning the financing and are big here all of a sudden. Great for employee's health, und wallets, as Benzin is just lowering now to just under 8 Euro's a "Liter" The US. has a lot to learn, instead of useless giant fans in our beautiful oceans killing off our precious wild life,. Surely green peace has been paid off, a saw zaw would be a lot cheaper than chasing China's whaling killing, giants ships.. ; ( and panels that don't make a dent in our fossil fuel consumption. This long range "great fun", teamed up with large companies would render them useless in a month with out killing one whale I say.. ; ) I can see where that would be of great use on the way down the mount. I feel it was an OK decision given the pluses to the mid engine E-Bike. To each his/her own..!! I still have a want for a dual motor short foldable E-bike for camping in our FL home. They look like a blast, und love the actual wheels compared to spoke und wheel. Maybe a youtube on those would be great for all of your viewers. but the mileage and ride from the mid motor was a perfect starting point. I see in the state's things differ, I am able to get two 1000 Watt motors, + dual batteries for long rides, on one short bike, where speed seems to be an issue here oddly enough, Given, even the elderly seem to be Formula One Drivers on roads that don't fit two Auto's side by side..; ) as my foot motorized push scoot is limited to 20 klm's. Easily hacked to go 36 klm via KZbin..??, As one 30 Euro super chip from China and an extra battery has me up to 60 klm's an hour out of winter boredom... ; ) The same dual motor short bike here, only offers two 750 motors..?? ; ) I can only assume to keep the speed down..?? Thankyou again, und keep us up to date on any newer options, as we are all watching for them.. ; ) Little electric push scoots here are limited to 20 klm's an hour legally, and have to be registered and insured, Yet E-bikes have no speed limit and require no registration and insurance.?? Going 90 klm's right out of the box. I have yet to look up the hack for it until I become more familiar with it. Always know your ride..!! If meine Frau could walk on her head, She surely would, being a native here.. ; ) = Everything is totally backwards here. Most differences are good, not to scare anyone off.. ; ) Know how to drive a stick shift, as a doctor's note is needed for an automatic auto, Yes, even a rental auto. for air quality. My twin turbo Suv's require two Catalator converters on each side of true dual exhaust are required to pass inspection and only EV's are aloud in certain parts of cities such as Munchen. Things I find interesting. Sorry to get of track.. ; ) Loving the E-Bike world which is your front yard obviously. I am loving it und meine Frau loves riding it so I'll be off with her to pick out her own before she breaks off the right hand mirror on the snow posts as she has mein auto's ; ) Thanks for the time you take learning us newbie's. It doesn't go un-noticed, nor un-appreciated meine freund..!! If you have done anything on the dual motor bikes, please send me the link. I can't wait to get home for winter n get a couple for us. These things are the best things invented since toasters... ; )

[@RonSolfest]

Recently watched several of your videos, thanks! I currently have a 6yr old BH City Pro with a 500W hub motor and 600WHr battery. I'm 220lb and like the ability to ride pretty much anywhere with it (put Continental CrossKing's on it) but frankly do ~80% on asphalt, with a fair amount of hills in our area. Riding the last couple of weeks at 15-20mph on the hilly roads I find I only get ~25mi+ range which limits my ability to explore. I'd like to get more range, but also don't want to give up on power going up hills (80%+ time in 30% power,

[@trolltoll69]

The video I've been waiting to see!

[@johnblacker9230]

What about rear hub dedicated to re-gen breaking as stop light is engaged on rear break (and disk break) - front hub drive with break disk break - and also mid gearbox drive? Two wheel drive for hills or top speed flats and re-gen every back break - put the battery pack under a rear heavy duty carrier for luggage. Now you are motoring - good luck - my first build just has a rear hub - enough for 20mph traffic in Lancaster UK......On flat top speed 27mph.

[@darinsmith2458]

Today was the first day that I was on an Ebike.. I tested out 3 different mid drive motors.. All with the carbon gates belt and all with the Invideo (not sure how to spell it) CVT hub.. All 3 bikes were totally different.. It was nice that I could drive them without any pedal assist and today it was 95 degrees.. I kept all of them at the lowest pedal assist and it was a hilly area and they did ok.. I think my speed was about 10 mph.. When it comes to mid drives I think I do want a carbon gates belt drive... I should probably test out some hub drives.. I probably don't need the carbon gates belt drive.. I have never been a huge fan of chains.. I don't think I ever broke one but I have got them caught in my jeans and also have had them come off a lot of times.. That and I have had it where they don't go into gear.. Also, not a fan of the grease getting over everything..

[@papalegba6796]

Belt drive & hub gears are the way to go with mid drive motors, far less maintenance, mess, etc. Not cheap tho.

[@JosiahPadgett]

If you are riding on a road at high speed gearless hub drive can't be dollar for dollar. Biggest downside is going to be weight. At low speed geared hub drive wins. Mid drive fills the gap but is also the most expensive option. A side note gear changes are generally going to be much easier on a hub drive. One thing to consider is the mid drives peak rpm which is often much higher than anyone would ever pedal. So yeah it CAN use all the gears but at the same times often robs you of any chance to help the motor along at top motor efficiency.

[@serhiirudenko6183]

Few months ago i was looking for an ebike, thought to get slightly used gravel with Fazua mid drive system. Made some research and found out that it is next to impossible to get spare parts for that system, though looks nice, one of the lightest ebike systems. So just got a regular acoustic gravel. for my needs it's pretty good and already had a pretty long trip 140km in one direction, its like 280km in a weekend.... Maybe someday I'll get something electric, but not today.

[@mikec4308]

this whole comment was just for you to talk about how far you biked. nothing to do with the video or ebikes lol

[@GravelGuerrilla]

Acoustic lmao I love it

[@BigFarm_ah365]

I've got a hub drive. For a mid drive a belt and internal geared hub would be my choice for drivetrain longevity

[@schubi128]

I own both, one el cheapo chinese rear direct drive 1000w hub motor and a bafang bbs2 750w motor with an enviolo gear hub. They are driving almost identical in flat land and moderate hills (up to 30 mph) when the aperage is restricted to 20A on the Hub drive and 24A on the mid drive. Basically the Bafang Mid drive draws 25% more power from the battery under the same driving conditions and same speed. Only on step hills the Hub drive at speeds below 8 mph struggles while the mid drive does not care due to the drive train gearing ratio. My guess is that 10-15% from the 25% more power consumption of the bafang is caused by the enviolo Internal gear hub.

[@crunchysteve]

In Australia, we have a legal limit on ebike power, pedelecs are limited to 250w, throttle bikes are legally limited to 200w. (The latter is absurd because AFAIK, nobody makes a 200w motor anymore and 250w pedelec is the Euro standard.) So, if your ebike is streat legal in Australia, heat management is not really an issue, mid mount or hub mount. (I won't bore or enrage anybody with Australia's other quirks about "street legal" like public parks are "the road" in some states. So, a local council owned mountain bike park, beefier than 250W may be illegal on that local mountain bike park. Dumb, right. Anyway, as I see it, as one happily using a front hub, 250w pedelec conversion kit , because I have heart failure with reduced ejection fraction, I wouldn't be riding without that cheap assed conversion kit, so it was absolutely the best option to keep me riding. With exchange rates and a smaller market, the only mid drive bikes available are priced like the bicycle equivalents of a Rolls Royce. Getting my touring bike setup for the kind of long distance and commuter bike riding I used to do before my heart attack cost me a grand when I was still in the workforce. AU$800 worth of urban bike plus AU$200 with of shifters and gravel drops. I couldn't afford that bike now I'm retired and living on my annuity, let alone the cheapest mid drive I've seen, which was basically a $300 bike with $1800 worth of Bafang motor controller and battery. To convert my touring bike into an ebike with a front hub, was another $700 total. That was with a 540Wh battery. So, to get my average 20 to 25 km/h riding speed over 2 hours, around the City of Melbourne, I'm on 1 to 2 boast (out of 5) and for that, a full charge barely comes off the pin, so heat management, traction, "balance" wheel weight. None of those things are a problem. Commuting up to a friend's place, there's a 2 metre climb on gravel on my preferred route - it's the only time I'm in 5 boast on the entire ride, I have to shift my weight forward on that bump, and pedal like a cranking monkey, anyway. Had to do that before my heart went pop, Never lost traction on the front wheel yet. The best ebike is the one you can afford. Mid drive has advantages, none of them are worth the expense. Not to me, anyway. Ride what you can, ride what you bring, don't judge the others' "ponies" judge their inclusiveness. I think most of the riders who've commented on my front hub being "dangerous" are riding mid drive because the benefit is it shows they're rich.

[@b.vonschnauser207]

Excellent, informative video. Subscribed!

[@tombenedettoaccount]

Very informative and balanced comparison. Thank you. Question: if I purchase an eBike with dual hub motors (ie. each 750W), could I simply purchase new higher wattage hubs (ie. each 1000W), or mix (front: 750W, rear: 1000W), and if so, would batteries remain the same, just expect less life if using higher wattage hub motors?

[@aural_supremacy]

I think the best option is both, if I had the capital I would start building them that seems to be the logical answer

[@tricolor6184]

Bom dia... é possivel instalar um acelerador no sistema MID-DRIVE ?????

[@JoseDuthie14]

am i correct in saying; mid drive motor for hills/forests hub drive motors for urban/streets

[@johannjohann6523]

The problem is for every great downhill pass you make, that means you have an uphill climb ahead of you. Unless, you get to the top of something like Pikes Peak. Have someone drive you to the top, and have a blast going downhill afterward. But I sure wouldn't want to pedal to the top of Pikes Peak. lol

[@sfdint]

Very informative. I have one of each. A Trek Powerfly 5 with a Bosch mid-drive. By using the top assist levels I can blast up hills no sweat. I also have a Salsa Confluence with a Mahle 35+ hub drive. Big difference. I like the Salsa for my road riding. It feels more natural than the Bosch. It gives me a consistent boost, but it's not overwhelming. On hills it gives me just enough boost to do a long 10% without fagging out, but it won't blast me up the hill. That's what I want. I want to get my heart elevated and labored breathing. The one downside of the Mahle hub drive is the lack of a torque system. There is a lag when you start up from a dead stop, especially if you're on an incline, but I got used to that and just make sure to downshift before stopping, like a real bike! The Bosch comes out only when I'm riding my rugged mountain trails with a lot of chunks and hills. Like you say, it depends on what kind of riding you are doing. Oh, other big plus with the Mahle 35+, the entire bike weights 32 lbs as opposed to 56 for the Trek Powerfly 5.

[@commonsense4207]

Bafang BBSHD Mid-Drive I will Never Ride another E-Bike in my LIFE for I Love my Bafang BBSHD Mid-Drive

[@dukeloo]

I own both. I like the mid drive for hills and hub drives with torque sensor for level ground riding. If the hub drive chain breaks you still have the throttle as a back up. With a mid drive no such choice exists.

[@Instantpower332]

Alan, Which bikes do you have. I only have experience with the Lectric 2.0 I think the MokWheel Crosia is going to fit the bill. For going down to the barn for the horses and scooting around Bethany Ct.

[@doctordoom6844]

I was thinking of converting a BMX bike into an ebike would a mid or hub drive be better for BMX conversion

[@MarioGoatse]

You should be carrying a few spare links. You can fix a chain in 5 minutes if you have the tool and you know what you’re doing.

[@SimonBauer7]

and also how often does your chain break?

[@lawrencekucharek3775]

The midwives has more possibilities to fail, more hardware internally, plus all the pieces in the drive train, which has added stress due to the motor. Chains can be stressed more but derailures can get bent or broken. The hub motor has points of fail, but not as many and it doesn't add stress to the drive train. I do own both, plus a front drive I put on a recumbent.

[@WybremGaming]

didn't mention the throttle delay on hub motors, it takes a good seconds before it starts and keeps going for a second when you stop peddling.

[@difflocktwo]

This is an artificial delay. I have no delay on my ebike. You can have instant torque, like any electric motor.

[@WybremGaming]

@@difflocktwo no you don't, a hub motor has delay, a middle motor has even some delay, you're clearly not used to motor bikes.

[@Chris-bn1bn]

Everyone overlooks WIND on these video's. It can be as difficult as steep hills( continuous!

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Wind, rain, tire pressure, terrain, elevation, outside temperature, drive unit temperature... the list of variables is seemingly endless. Granted they all suffer from all the same things, it is how some types of drive units are engineered and tested to combat those things differently from others as well.

[@jameswright1187]

great explanation thank u! has anyone heard of a fat wheel bike with gates belt drive system?

[@TheDZHEX]

can one do a triple motor setup with 2x hub and 1x mid? What problems could one expect?

[@mikec4308]

lift off

[@nonnsenseful]

That was a helpful breakdown, thank you

[@sandragtjiteere3737]

Thanks for your explanation.

[@alanduncan7591]

which hub motors have gears inside and which ones do not?

[@Peter-ny4mu]

Both hub-drive and mid-drive motors can have either torque or cadences sensors or even both.

[@rtel123]

Can't argue with the experience of mid drive owners who feel the extra power when gearing down. But my mind keeps going to the fact that electric cars do not gear down for hills. Electric motors can be built to have max torque at almost zero RPM. So hub drive should be possible with great power for hills too.

[@brianbassett4379]

Mid-drives put the torque into the chain, where you can use the bike's gearing. Hub motors aren't great at climbing; they are made to run at a constant rev. - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6aXp3p7r86Vr5o

[@Boeing767DriverAA]

What Im curious about whether I chose a mid drive or a hub setup. What happens if the battery is dead or if their is a mechanical issue with the motor except the chain breaking. Am I still able to pedal?

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

With a dead battery both styles you’d be able to pedal around.

[@victorjcano]

So what is it like if you have to change a tire or a tube on a hub drive?

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Not much of a difference, about as easy as an old coaster brake cruiser. We have a video here on the channel that talks about the process step by step. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWjGlZ-vrrCnpLs

[@BillBadMule123]

I Prefer the Hub Motor ? because if your chain brakes you can still get home If you have a throttle like I do on my Rad Rover Power Bike

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

That's always a consideration. We don't typically encounter broken chains, maybe once every few years, but it is a possibility. I think for urban and cargo bikes hub offers many benefits. For more performance based riding like eMTB we do favor mid drives.

[@Instantpower332]

Great information as you folks know I’m trying to figure out what’s the best E Bike for what I do. Having had experience with the Lectric bikes I definitely No this isn’t what I want. Mid motor like you just said have a lot of plus’s . Yet so do the hub motor’s I’m finding that because I live in a very rural town I enjoy 95% of my riding on pavement I have gone over so many reviews. And I think I have almost decided on MokWheel Basalt ( only problem is it’s pretty big ) I,m like 5’8” and 145 lbs. or Scoria which Definitely will fit me a lot better. Both are hub drive with 90 nm which in Connecticut we have hill over 20 plus degrees will most certainly power through them. Yet the mid drives with torque sensors are a big plus. I,m driving my wife nuts but the more I learn the better chance I will not make a mistake. Terrific review. Thanks….

[@almostrvperfect6203]

I hear ya. When buying my first SLR camera a retired NBC studio camera man suggested I buy a little more than I think I need. He suggested this approach to not immediately outgrow the camera as I learned all its features. Like buying a PC or laptop the longer you wait the further behind you will be. So, give your wife a break, pull the trigger.

[@HELLMURDURA]

I have a question please. Suppose if you were trying to decide on couriering. Such as delivering food or medicine in an urban setting. Which motor system do you prefer? Thank you very much.

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Ultimately both platforms will deliver the same result. We'd suggest searching for the style of bike you want (cargo, commuter, etc.) and lock in your price point. If hub drives are what is showing up, we'd encourage looking for one with a torque sensor as it will have a more natural pedaling feel. Check out our review of the Ride1Up Roadster, its a great value, super lightweight, and could make a great courier rig with a rack.

[@HELLMURDURA]

@@ElectricBikeJournal thank you.

[@88MUSICTIME]

Excellent review explaining the difference between HUB and MID type motors.

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Thanks! 👍

[@Ubaid163]

Brother I have an e bike named as Raymon hardray 4.0. It has a yamaha mid drive motor and a yamaha display. I tried to increase the speed of the bike by putting magnet to pedals and removing sensor from its original place.. it worked perfectly but suddenly it stopped working completely. It gives very little peddle assist. Before I could go max 16miles but now the motor doesn’t support 5 miles. The change in the display that appears after this problem is that the range shown on the display is blinking. It never blinked before. Please help me. I haven’t found any video to solve this problem. No one in my area is able to identify the problem

[@Jwillikers]

Try reconnecting the flux capacitor.

[@taxibeforesunsetclips7629]

I got a mid drive to fit this weekend, I'll be mostly using it for the roads to work and back, shopping, errands etc on a MTB with some flat gravel trails occasionally. One thing that's just hit me is that all the fast food delivery guys around here use hub motors. Wondering if I made the right choice now?

[@Robert-ns2pd]

They use the hub motors because they're cheaper, because the companies don't pay them very well. They also use cheap ass batteries & chargers, which end up causing fires like as what happened in New York.

[@JoseDuthie14]

nice video

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Thanks!

[@michaellazuka654]

Would anybody explain the benefits of a mid drive if I'm just running fairly flat roads?

[@alansimpson6847]

Good job thanks😊

[@mangreat71]

I want to know the names of the fastest e-bikes with mid hub motors and with the most towing capacity and trike with rear hub motors??

[@gettheflockoutofhere]

Excellent video and decision made - mid-drive. Do you have any views on converting a full suspension mountain bike to a comfy road going eBike? I am riding a front hub converted track bike right now and it is pretty minimalist. Looking to create something more plush for my 20 mile commute and I don't want to go down the fat frame fat tyre route.

[@SimonBauer7]

id get a trekking bike, with only front suspension, and 27.6" or 29" wheels. and add a tongsheng or bafang mid drive motor.

[@ridefast0]

I converted an old Marin full-sus MTB XC bike for mostly road use using a CYC Photon mid-drive kit, it is brilliant for potholes etc and with a bit of pedalling I get about 40-50 road miles using 50% of the capacity on a X-go 48V 20Ah rear rack battery. And of course it can go off-road very well too. Waxed chains rule!

[@cwick2284]

Ok, this is funny I have Bafang Mid Drives 750 and 1000 watt with a total of 23000 miles. The maintenance is torture, since the power comes from the main sprocket, the chain and your cassette will wear out every 1500 miles to 2000 miles. You'll not be able to interchange those parts, you will exchange both cassette and chain with new. Now your good for another 1.5 to 2k miles, I have about 100 feet of chain 20 worn out freewheels around here. If you buy a good hub motor kit, install it carefully, it should be care free to 30k miles I guess.

[@svenweihusen57]

I just wanted to point out the exact same point. Mid drive motors really stress derailleur systems. One big advantage of mid drive motors is that you can easily combine it with an internal gear hub. If you add a Gates belt you get a nearly maintenance free bike. If you want to avoid a derailer system with a hub drive you need some expensive and exotic stuff like the Pinion system.

[@ridefast0]

I have crossed over to mid-drive with chain waxing and have great results. No sprocket/cassette wear and no measurable chain wear in over 3500 miles with three cheap Shimano chains in rotation, use one carry two as spares, quick links, swap chains every 100 miles, re-wax all three chains every 300 miles using cheap home waxing pot and cheap food-grade wax. Lots of useful guidance from Zero Friction Cycling channel. Not as time consuming or difficult as people say.

[@pampowell6560]

Loved the video

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Thanks for watching!

[@8_x_9.]

Can you ride a mid drive without pedaling it? Thanks. 😊

[@SB-hr5yr]

Yes.

[@SB-hr5yr]

Mid drive bikes/kits come with either a twist grip or thumb throttle.

[@pauldrew1130]

Thanks for sharing

[@NBSTL68]

So... will a 500W hub motor w 60nm torque get up a hill faster and/or easier than say a 250 Watt Brose mid mount motor w 90nm torque?

[@bartjez]

Hub drive motors take a lot of strain off the chain set. 10,000 km are no problem at all. The spare parts are also very cheap. The only thing you have to make sure is that the gears are lubricated with good grease... then 100,000 km and more are no problem at all.

[@danielsnarr8272]

Would a mid drive urban bike be better for a hilly commuter route as opposed to a hub drive? Roughly 6 miles each way.

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Exclusively speaking towards your commute, there great options available for both motor systems. Again if it is solely to be used as a commuter, consider things like: what accessories the bike comes with (fenders, lights, etc.), how much does the bike weigh (if you have to take it up and down any stairs), does it have storage options (rack or mounts to add one), and what is your max budget? Best of luck, let us know what you decide.

[@papalegba6796]

That sounds similar to my commute & mid drive definitely the best option for hills (I have a Bosch performance line 65nm which breezes up any hill). However mid drive means you don't have the option of using a throttle & is more expensive. Also, I live in the UK where throttles are illegal unless registered as a motor bike & occasionally the police round up & confiscate unregistered ebikes, so that another factor in my choice.

[@tomvermeulen1082]

Do either or both offer throttle only?

[@LouRaX]

i choose rear wheel hub motor any day for my Speed Pedelec... esaily gets me to 48 kmh

[@Fonkemman]

The mid drive is just more practical. At least it is a separate part than the others and not in the wheel system.

[@difflocktwo]

Nothing is more practical than a gearless hub motor. It does braking and acceleration with no wearing parts other than bearings and tires.

[@AfrinonM]

Why not both? Ok, I know why not both: it's expensive and not the best value for the money spent. It's heavy (two separate batteries!) and more maintenance is needed. The motors and controllers don't work together unless you have a specific configuration or are willing to do programing and/or wiring. Not all parts of the rear hub motor can be easily replaced with stronger parts to withstand the mid drive's force. All in all, probably best to go for a single stronger motor than to combine a mid and a hub. I didn't do that. I started with a pre-built geared rear hub motor bike, then impulsively purchased a CYC photon and added it because it was slow going up the hills in the area I live in. Frankly, I love it. The hub motor handles slower navigation on pedestrian sidewalks and quick acceleration from standstills like a stop lights, while the mid drive punches it when I need to go fast to keep up with traffic or for extra force when I'm climbing those hills. The hub drive is on a rear-dropout torque sensor, so it senses the force from the mid-drive motor and continues to work when the mid drive is engaged (at least, if the power indicator from the hub motor display is true). I definitely have to be careful with the force applied through the drive train: I already replace the chain and cassette with reinforced ones, but the aluminum freehub, the nylon gears in the hub motor, and that aluminum rear dropout torque sensor are all potential points of failure. I've been using bikes to commute for over a decade now though, so at least shifting gears up and down to minimize wear on the drive train is second nature. Any mistakes of leaving it in high gear at a stop are easily recovered from with the hub motor's throttle (side note: two throttles, a thumb one for the hub motor and a half-twist for the mid drive). I definitely wouldn't recommend it if you don't have time and money in excess; I don't think most bike shops would do it for you, so it's something you'd have to do yourself, which you could easily get things wrong if you're an amateur (like me, who didn't even have all the tools needed to remove a bottom bracket or a cassette). Still, I've ridden it over 200 miles now and I absolutely love it.

[@Internet_Pirat]

what if i combine them both together?

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Go for it. Let us know how it works out.

[@mikec4308]

please tell me you did this

[@oxharp]

I am considering buying either a hub drive or mid drive motor to recover from injury but I live in a hilly area. I am looking at the Orbea D30 with the X35 hub motor or the specialized sl comp carbon with the Sl1.1 mid drive motor. I am 110kg and recently had a new knee and ankle fusion so would like to know which would get me up the hills easier until I get fitter. The hills I used to ride before my op were up to 20% on a typical 50 mile ride. I have heard that the hub drive will give up on you on steep hills as your effort slows but the mid drive will keep delivering is that true?

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Both of those bikes are really great choices. As far as “giving up” goes a mid drive doesn’t show favor on flat or hills. It outputs power based off your input. Most hub motors will output based off the input of speed or throttle, but can’t tell the difference of hills vs flat and that’s where many will give up so to speak, with more resistance on the motor for climbing they have less sensors to compute the changes and output more power. That being said there are many high watt output hub motors that you can flick a throttle and it’ll power you up hills but that is a different cycling experience.

[@oxharp]

Thank you so much for getting back to me. It makes sense to me now about which to buy for recovery. I dont need a powerful embt just a road bike that will help up the hills round here. I dont want a motor to take over and I have enough power to keep up with a group but at 63 I am suffering up the hills more and more especially after my surgery. I have a good input so am going to test ride some mid drive motors of around 40NM or so. I think the SL 1.1 is 35NM so should give me just enough to get up most hills round here. I cant get out of the pedals so I have to rely on seated spinning until I am more flexible and things settle down abit more. I may not be able to as my ankle fusion is very restrictive and only flexes about 10% of what is used to but now I am pain free so we shall see. Thanks again. very much appreciated.@@ElectricBikeJournal

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

@@oxharp Been very satisfied with road/gravel bikes with MAHLE X35/X20. If I was buying an e-road bike today I'd opt for Bianchi E-Oltre with MAHLE X30, Shimano 105 mechanical. $5K seems like a pretty fair price. My wife has an earlier E-Aria X35 model bought used that she really, really likes!

[@zosterinski]

real question is which can you hack easier to overcome that shitty EU/UK 25km/h limit

[@diesel-technology5507]

Anything other than Bosch seems to be fairly easy to fool lol

[@SimonBauer7]

anything except bosch system you can easily fool. these motors have so much power you can do atleast double.

[@papalegba6796]

Volspeed make a good chip for Bosch, reliable but only goes up to 27mph which is plenty really.

[@ridefast0]

Tell it you are running tiny wheels!

[@moozzzzz]

Im looking for more of an urban solution so I feel like hub drive might be more fitting however my area does have quite a fair bit of hills. Do you think a good hub drive system could still do fine up hill?

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Rear hub drive bikes are fantastic solutions especially for urban use. When referring to mid drives being better for hills, the context is more relevant for mountain biking and dramatic elevation changes on rough terrain. We’ve ridden many hub system bikes that are great in hilly cities. A higher nM torque output of the motor will provide more consistent power for those hills, equally a geared bike as opposed to a single speed. We’d encourage going to your local bike shop to take a test ride on as many different bikes as you can. That’s ultimately the best way to find the right recipe you need.

[@akudamatada1]

Im building a ebike for my wife and the platform is an existing mt bike that we have had for years. I had my mind set on getting the mid drive motor until i found out it doesnt have the throttle feature. Is there a mid drive motor that have throttle so my wife doesnt have to pedal at times ? :))

[@SimonBauer7]

bafang bbs02/bbshd have throttle

[@ridefast0]

CYC photon has throttle and a very good torque sensor (not just cadence), makes the rider feel like Lance on a juiced-up day!

[@cheythompson740]

If your after a very mantinence free engine the hub gear less hub is the one, personally never found geard engines to be any more or less efficient than a hub drive

[@hadesbboy]

Great moustache bro

[@grahamcono9551]

Which gets you the most reliablility and least maintenance?

[@johnnyforeigner11]

What would be the advantages and/or disadvantages of a front hub motor with rear hub gears and a carbon belt?

[@xabiaa2167]

I'm very interested in this config, but not a lot of manufacturers using it... 🤔

[@douglasmckinley-sr1507]

With just a front hub it becomes a throttle only( technically a motor bike) vs. a pedal assisted bicycle. Throttle only are not allowed on many (majority?) of bike paths. Also you would have less traction going uphill as the majority of the weight shifts to the rear wheel.

[@QBziZ]

Not exactly. You can have Pedal Assist Sensors mounted to the crank. I have it. It works great. Also, front hub gives you all-wheel drive on a bicycle ;)

[@w.w77]

Do motorcycles have their engines in their hubs? No. So why would anyone choose a hup drive motor? I have 3 mid drive bafangs. One a 750w and two 1kw. The 750 is my favorite and has a lot of torque and is smooth and i get more kilometers from a battery pack and i cam do rides using only level assist 3 while changing gears on tje rear cassette where as with a 1kw im using levels 6 to 9 to get up the same hills. I owned a front wheel hub motor which was 27.5". I rode 5 feet and it blew the hall sensors. Very annoyed and all i can say is i wont buy another one

[@QBziZ]

It’s the cleanest form of drive. All is well that is round and rolls.

[@JoeStreet-ws1ro]

Seems like mid engine so you have back tire gears would be less work on motor.and more speed options

[@brianbassett4379]

Bingo! The motor applies the torque to the gears where God intended it. - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6aXp3p7r86Vr5o

[@terrysphilippinejourney9347]

If u like riding get a hub drive … if u prefer working on your bike get a mid drive …. Simple !!!

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Which mid drive eBikes have you owned?

[@LeeT.Saysay-xv8fc]

I need one

[@iamyourfather3643]

I pefer hub drive since you can use it if the chain breaks

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Pretty rare to break a chain. But yes, hub drive can work without a chain, especially with the throttle.

[@Zeeboklown]

so.. mid eng is what we all imagined an elec bike would work when we were kids, but a hub style is what we all wished was possible but didnt have any pre existing examples that would lend our minds to intuitively imagine how it would "work", rite? lol PS my hub style volutrek has torque sensor... just saying.

[@bikechiangmai]

❤thanks

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

You are welcome

[@rexlion4510]

I just don't get the reasoning behind "you get to apply the torque to all of the gears with a mid drive." Because my hub drive gets the torque from all of the gears, too! With a mid drive, the motor torque combines with the leg torque. With a hub motor, the motor torque combines with the leg torque! I just test-rode an 80nm Bafang mid motor up a hill, and then test-rode a 100nm MXUS hub motor (with torque sensor) up the same hill. Guess what? The hub ebike climbed the hill with less effort than the mid drive ebike! Torque is torque.

[@SimonBauer7]

downshift and the bafang will eat the mxus hub for breakfast

[@HermannKerr]

If you read the law, most hub drive motors are illegal, here in British Columbia, though enforcement usually doesn't happen if they are not operated in an illegal way. Most reputable bike shops do not sell hub drives.

[@srobeck77]

you live in a very odd country. thats not a normal thing with hub motors for most countries

[@brianbassett4379]

I think you're handing out a myopic perspective of mid-drives. Not all mid-drive motors use a torque sensor. Not all mid-drives need "professional help" to perform much of the maintenance to keep them running. Not all ebikes require a proprietary frame that can only use one manufacturer's underpowered motor and small overpriced batteries. You mentioned the two types of hub motors but didn't mention add-on mid-drive motors like the BaFang BBSHD and their massive advantages... such as torque, throttle, adaptability, ease of installation and self-repair, cost, programmability, etc, etc, etc. There isn't a production mid-drive ebike I would own but I wouldn't ride anything *but* a mid-drive ebike. Most mid-drive chain and drive train damage is due to what should be an ever-changing chain line from gear changing. Riders rely on the motor to grunt it out rather than downshifting. Coupling a mid-drive with a Rohloff Speedhub is a game changer. Absolute minimum drive train wear and fast sure gear changes with a straight chain line. The Gate's belt will be another game changer, but it's a little more tricky to use a full suspension e-bike. With _minimum_ chain maintenance, I change the chain and rear gear every 3K miles or about twice a year, less than $50, and I can do it on the side of the trail in about 45 minutes. I've been riding the same ebike for over 8 years and have ridden over 48K miles. Much of that has been with panniers and pulling a trailer on rough uphill surfaces, and I have never had a "heat management" issue. Apply only the necessary torque to an IGH; the motor will always stay in its comfort zone. We're talking about ebikes; if someone rides an ebike like a little motorcycle, they will have excess damage and stress the motors regardless of whether it's a mid-drive or a hub motor... but mid-drives *are* superior to hub motors. - photos.app.goo.gl/ADgC6oyPM2gyrCq27 Sporting my latest and possibly final upgrade. Ladies and gentlemen, the *_Gates Belt Drive._* - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6aXp3p7r86Vr5o

[@tonypaddler]

I agree with everything you say, and the new Bafang BBSHD motor is getting rave reviews and I never thought that I'd buy anything but a mid-drive, torque sensor Ebike but as someone with battery anxiety and motor failure paranoia I'm going to buy a Himiway Zebra hub drive bike, with torque sensor, as at least if the motor ever fails or I run out of battery then at least I can pedal back home. I once tried pedalling a mid-drive bike without power and the drag put me off. That was a few years ago though, maybe mid-drive motors have less drag now, and maybe I should stop being paranoid! 🤷‍♂️😂 This bike is only going to be used on old railway lines and very mild gravel, and to cover longer distances than I do on my clockwork bike. Should I ever replace my full-suss MTB that I ride in the mountains then a mid-drive would be the only choice.

[@sal2417]

If your hubdrive motor axle breaks you have to get a whole new motor

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

Likely more cost efficient at the least. Fortunately they are significantly more affordable then mid drive systems and much easier to replace.

[@KolnFriedChicken]

Shouldn't hub drive motors be more efficient by defintion? You have loss when tranferring power via a chain, you don't have these losses with a hub drive...

[@ElectricBikeJournal]

I think it would be safe to agree that as a motor using throttle only a hub would be more efficient for the rider. However, as a bicycle and pedalling a mid drive would be more efficient since you can utilize the gears of the bikes drivetrain to change the gearing ratio. This would make the power output of the motor more efficient under load, like climbing steep hills. I guess a close example would be using 4 Low on a 4wd vehicle, the different gearing ratio is able to maximize the output of power to the same wheels.

[@srobeck77]

no

[@testdirver]

midhub engine are the most recent, hub motors old tech, cheap

[@impulse0039]

Hub is cheaper but it's low torque mid drive are higher performance with higher torque it's good for hills so i prefer mid drive something from 750 watt with 48v and 17 to 20 A withh 200mm breaks

[@captamerica3693]

yes, someone who has owned both you were perpetuating a mythology. My hub motor can do wheelies up the tallest hill effortlessly. on the other hand twice now on my hub motor, my chain has broken gone up hills and hurt the living crap out of my nuts so guess what bike I ride the most?

[@Nopenopenopenope53]

666th Like. rock on🚀

[@FernandoGarrido-sb9gt]

Is that even a question? One is a e-motorbike, the other is a e-bike. POINT.

[@conservativemike3768]

Buy a super cheap ebike, learn what you like, sell it in a year, and then make a far more educated choice when you upgrade. You'll probably save yourself a ton of money.

[@ericb.4358]

Do you use your E-MTB for HUNTING or backcountry CAMPING? Then you need a hub motor (or in my E-CELLS bike's case two hub motors) Say a chain breaks with a mid drive motor. Say despite your tools and chain repair parts you CAN'T repair it. What then?? A long push back to the parking lot. But with hub motors "no chain is no problem". Besides mid motors drive THROUGH the chain so they wear it much more quickly than pedal assist power using hub motors, raising the incidence of chain failure.

[@SimonBauer7]

i never had a chain fail. ever. and i abuse my mid drive emtb