Counterbalance Podcast | Can the US Withstand An Economic Standoff with China? (feat. Jonathan Ward)

Hudson Senior Fellow Jonathan Ward joins co-host Peter Rough to discuss his new book The Decisive Decade: American Grand Strategy for Triumph Over China. In his book, and during the episode, Ward lays out how the US gave up many of its economic advantages while allowing China's rise. Thankfully, according to Ward, it's not too late to reverse course, but America has to start by winning one decade at a time.

[@philipwong895]

The world is in dire straits if these two represent the next generation of leaders. There is no hope for a peaceful world.

[@user-ok6re8gv1q]

rofl no wonder USA think tanks has lead america to wear it is today.

[@monipenny408]

along with Gordon Chang, Zeihan, these quacks are the reason why U$ is collapsing!!!

[@CorneyKAlone]

"If you can only be tall because somebody is on their knees, then you have a serious problem. A serious neurosis white supremacy problem". - Toni Morrison

[@LaVictoireEstLaVie]

These two people (i.e. neocon/neolib fundamentalists) do in large part represent current and upcoming US "leadership" to the detriment of the wider world. Since there are currently no consequences for policy makers, this kind of neocon/neolib imperialist ideology will continue to be a hallmark of current and future US foreign policy.

[@monipenny408]

@@LaVictoireEstLaVie let's see how many more trillions of debt U$ can pile on before it collapses. It is currently adding a trillion every quarterly.

[@sydca5365]

Besides all the screaming and kicking by this Jonathan guy, what's the purpose of this talk show? America will win? China will lose? or China is evil and America is the fluffy white angel? I am lost.

[@seymorefact4333]

What did he do then that would be dangerous today? SPYING AND PEDOPHILE posing as a english teacher! China would catch him faster today,. He is a bot of the US propaganda! the USA has 900 military bases around the globe, spends $1.4 trillion on military annually, US has endless wars for looting, the US spies on everyone...even its allies! Vs China..1 base overseas (ask by the US and UN), $250 billion in military, NO proof of spying on any country, NO war since Korean war, wants a win-win business trade, Does NOT interfere or PREACH to other nations.

[@alexlazar4738]

Jonathan Ward is the living proof that knowledge of languages and extensive travel do not necessarily broaden one's mind. (especially if you are financially and socially incentivized not to broaden it)

[@dicky-duck6632]

China needs such so-called "China experts" to numb the West, making the West believe that China cannot think, cannot innovate, only knows how to steal

[@ramrao668]

I suppose you define broadening your mind as appeasing the CCP LOL

[@bobmorane4926]

​@@ramrao668I suppose you mean on the other hand that a rule based world would imply genocide in serbia requires military intervention by the west but genocide in gaza requires complicit participation and western support and hypocrisy to the fullest extent.

[@rap3208]

China wanted to go back to its rightful place in the world, what does he think every nation wants? They want to be the best they can be. When he was saying that China wants t be the most powerful nation in the world, what does he think the US is doing and is very very desperate to keep? You are very right, he already had a mindset about China and when he went to CHina and probably spoke to people but he was closed off to anything that didn't agree to what he fixed in his mind.

[@bobmorane4926]

@@rap3208 That's because what you see him explain is the zionist mindset on full display. If the zionists control the US as we've seen the US unable to stop war crimes, genocide and human rights violation, it's not very hard to deduct that the zionists actually control the world. And the kind of disdain for China is an exhibit of their hate of how they got played so bad by the Chinese and they would go to any length to take them down.

[@aslampervez2294]

China expert: let's do nothing except sanctioning China. LoL

[@monipenny408]

The west in particular U$A has robust PR strategy. China has robust innovation, development, R&D strategies and a recurrent 5 year plan. U$ feels good talking about winning! Meanwhile, China quietly wins in the background in almost all areas! U$ projects its own collapse on China via propaganda and obsessing about China 24/7. China simply continue to innovate, expand, product, build and develop at warp speed! U$ barks!!! China the caravan simply carry on its journey to the future with or without the U$!

[@Calabaza866]

When I visit a land unfamiliar to me and bother to learn their language and culture I mostly end up appreciating that country, I do not end up plotting its demise. This guy visited China and Russia already with hate in his heart.

[@brianlee6260]

Jonathan lives in a parallel reality. By the way, he does get invited a lot by Foxnews, and every time he was there he was ranting and raving, whining like an old woman. Is this how he got his Phd?

[@lluc9946]

So……winning by sanctioning?😂

[@madflaka4087]

China can devalue its own currency when they export the sanctions are well deserved.

[@jasonjean2901]

Only 8 minutes into this interview and Jonathan Ward is already openly lying so much about China that I need to comment. I personally know several Americans who live in China and have been allowed to travel to Tibet over the past 1-2 years. Xinjiang is easy to travel to and foreigners go there on a regular basis. His broad claims that you "cannot travel in China" is complete nonsense. It does, however, demonstrate how much supposed academics and researchers need to lie about China in order to present it as a supposed 'closed society'.

[@jiahan3849]

Gee, I guess you only read CCP propaganda.

[@bangpitestea3889]

@@jiahan3849and you only read tea leafs , tarot card and trump tweet .

[@jiahan3849]

@@bangpitestea3889 You know nothing. Anyone who defends CCP will go to the HELL.

[@jasonjean2901]

@@jiahan3849 I guess you don't fact-check.

[@jiahan3849]

@@jasonjean2901 You are clueless. I lived in China under CCP for 30+ years. Do you need to know more?

[@daymay1066]

Nope. US ONLY advantage is MONEY PRINTING and EXPORTING ITS INFLATIONS TO OTHERS.

[@netizencapet]

You have no idea how supreme and envy-worthy that money-printing advantage is (the "exorbitant privilege" of 75% USD global reserve currency holdings)!

[@snoopysnoops007]

EXACTLY, the US has pushed inflation on others for so long everyone is beginning to look for alternatives

[@buravan1512]

-The biggest problem of US is the level of the IGNORANCE that is found in her so called INTELLECTUAL COMMUNITY. -He said that only US had an ATOMIC BOMB during KOREAN WAR😂, Korean War started in 1950 to 1953. The SOVIETS officially tested their first Atomic Bomb on August 29th 1949, mass-production started 3 months later November 1949. *-This GUY is not Serious.*

[@shiulai5804]

Exactly. Is this Jonathan fellow deliberately fabricating history or is he just being ignorant?

[@shiulai5804]

Good point. Ward is an "expert" that is deliberately fabricating history or ignorant of it.😅

[@bdnevins]

He did not say only US had atomic bomb. He said US had superiority. (30 min) I had a dream last night. I learned Mandarin and broke into the CPC headquarters and read all the archives. They show that the CPC has always had the utmost respect for human rights, no territorial ambitions, and they will quickly transition to a multi-party democracy with a strong constitution and limited government.

[@ntcsie9530]

The scholar had to mention his PhD degree/research a few times to make sure that the audiences know he is an EXPERT on China/USA relationship.

[@qake2021]

🤣🤣🤣 FAKE expert ‼️😝😝😝

[@papabear90]

Lol his only answer is sanctions

[@pcnetworx1]

We are so fucked

[@daymay1066]

The only way US can win is by sabotaging others? Lmao!😂

[@TheBuddhasSon]

Well asked! Such bigotry from the so called scholar. Not even once is he able to mention something that China has done wrongly, like attacking another country - something the US does constantly.

[@user-tr5vs9gm4r]

Tonya Harding

[@JA-pn4ji]

A very good distillation on the US perspective of its relationship with China. This should be watched by international relations scholars and diplomats across the world.

[@pikachus5m166]

Why?, he's a propagandist.

[@JA-pn4ji]

@@pikachus5m166 Yeah, but even if you disagree with someone you should listen to them to learn the strength with which they hold their ideas, because it allows you to predict their future actions.

[@pikachus5m166]

@@JA-pn4ji When he's regurgitating outright lies, for the sole purpose of demonising a nation or people, for the ultimate aim of manufacturing consent, that has to be exposed. FYI, the Nazis copied from the Zionists, but the Zionists are still getting away with it.

[@monipenny408]

Wouldn't it make more sense to beat China first, then do a podcast as opposed to what most U$ "experts" talking about how to beat China and strategies of containment of China? Instead of talk talk talk, why not do do do, beat China, and then tell the world how marvelous, how great, or how clever, or how innovative or how superior the west really are???

[@dabrack9350]

After listening to several others and now this guy all, one way or another, say we must begin to fight; but not with the military. We build our military to the point China realizes it cannot stand against us. And then we wage an economic war with sanctions and even a blockade denying China of energy, ores, and food. Blockades would be relatively easy given the choke points and the fact that China's navy cannot reach to them. All agree we must begin very soon or risk losing from the strong position.

[@jameswong07]

America seems to be defeating itself in a faster pace by imposed sanctions on China .. 😂

[@willengel2458]

have you ever wondered why Mike Pompeo wasn't running for president? he is sanctioned by China and his patron, Koch Bros. won't hire him. his hangout is Hudson Institute at $80'000/yr.

[@jlangenberg]

You must be Chinese lol

[@XinaCCPFreeTibet]

Yeah. So defeated. The economy is growing at the fastest rate among all industrialized nations. Unemployment is wt its lowest levels.

[@LanNguyen-vd4zt]

No more small Chinese Sausage

[@willengel2458]

@@LanNguyen-vd4zt do you know who your forebears are? Nguyen is Yuan in Chinese, and there are not of Viet-Namese of Chinese descent.

[@user-ed9so2rb4k]

If only talks can result in the concretization of the highways, rail tracks, canals maybe such talks are useful

[@CorneyKAlone]

These two talking heads are still stuck on a condescending view of the People's Republic of China's political arrangement as CCP. There is the Communist Party of China (CPC). There isn't any political system which is superior that the world should adopt wholesale. It's really a matter of perspective and local settings. Having studied Chinese culture/language etc and still not being able to recognise and respect a country like China is a sad reflection on so-called China experts from the exploitative and colonialist westerners who are clouded by deluded supremacist notions. That must change. And soon. The China today is undoubtedly the envy of the world (acknowledged or willfully ignored and lied about) with a robust socialist system which has well functioning local governments in each provinces. The 88% of the world (Global Majority) is seeing the panic and lies from the U.S as native as its origins.

[@michaelmarchal4004]

I feel a Chinese women broke his heart.

[@shiulai5804]

The zero sum mentality or the American exceptionalism is an American thing. Using the same lences to study China would lead to wrong conclusions, as Johnathan Ward has demonstrated. Mo might have boasted about China " catching up with Great Britain and surpassing the US" (his exact words). He did it when China was poorer than some African nations and under American led BROCADE It was brovado. A true "scholar" of China would have acknowledged that no such bravodo talk was made in the numerous "5 year plans" in the many decades that followed. Everyone of the Chinese 5 year plans since has emphasized POVERTY ALLEVIATION. The focus of last two 5 year and the current one is about liftimg the standard of living of the Chinese people to a "middle income level", defined as a per capita income of around $ 23,000 USD. It is currently at around $11,000 USD. They cannot achieve that goal by making T shirts and Xmas ornaments. Thetefore the need to go up the manufacturing value chain, That is the source of the American claim that China is violating the American led "world order". And that China is wilfully chanllenging its hegemony. In fact, China has no history of colonization. Its last war with another nation was in1979. Being a hegemony is not on its to do list. To provide perspective on where China is at and where it hopes to go,: the per capita income of America is about $70,000 USD. That is 7 times more than the Chinese one. The Chinese hopes to reach 1/3 of the income of America sometime in the future. Unfortunately, American pundits from Obama to Ward are viewing the Chinese aspiration to live 1/3 as well as Americans do as an ACT of AGGRESSION. Go figure.

[@daymay1066]

Yeah....but US citizens per capita income in comparison to their parity in purchasing power in contrast to China's Chinese pales in comparison. You can live comfortably in China on a USD3,000 mthly income, but you'll be struggling to pay your bills in US even on a USD6,500.00 mthly income. So, you cannot judge by per capita income....rather must judge by parity in purchasing power. And the taxes Americans are forced to pay are staggering compared to China's Chinese. That's not even mentioning China's vast and modertn infrastructures, healthcare sysyems that's designed to truly protect their citizens.. in US.....you're poor.....you don't have much access to healthcare.

[@kaushlendratripathi7984]

The choice for India appears easy but the baggage of American actions from 7th fleet against India in Bangladesh war to switching off GPS during Kargil.war leaves a lot of ground to be covered. The way forward is substantial movement on capital and technology for India to help India clear their ambivalence.

[@netizencapet]

This comment is one of the few substantive & piercing comments for this video (which was nonsense).

[@banditonehundred]

Yes, it will be interesting to see how India goes. It will be in their best interest to come closer to the West but with the recent democratic backsliding it will be tough to consider them to be a reliable counter to China.

[@youspoontube]

Sanction is a form of human right violations.

[@michaelmarchal4004]

Is like a Adrian Zen's 2.0

[@wankee888]

Typical American.....but china will do what it needs to do.

[@gingermintrose]

And this guy is thinking that Xi has a violent impulse like Mao. China wants to return to being the center of the world and not an interventionist or colonizer.

[@tomsewell2462]

I've always loved languages. I speak Spanish (Mexican) fairly well, and Nepalese (relative of Hindi) like a retarded 1st grader,and I wanted to study, easy to learn, Bahasa, the lingo of Malaysia/Indonesia, dince Ive spent lots of time there on moto. Nepali took me 15 years of a season there climbing every year.

[@allinballsout1]

❤

[@peterobila1243]

Think about sanctioning CN “Economic containment “ got toothless with Rus-Ukr war

[@sgill4833]

With regards to India. It was the US that chose a side first when they aligned with Pakistan. So India therefore had no choice but to align with Russia. Not accurate to say India decided poorly. Better to say the US decided poorly. Not to mention, kissinger said to be America friend is deadly. India should remain neutral yet remain strategic.

[@oscare014]

It is this arrogant that we are where we are today.... 🎉🎉🎉

[@user-cy3ce1gy7o]

Use the old traditional American way. Kneecapping always work when hardworking dont

[@rayfellers]

@rayfellers Has India already decided to side with China and Russia with the formation of BRICS?

[@JasMine-nq6ci]

Feudalism forbids them from taking such dire extremes...U know, they're still at de Feudal stage of advancements...

[@banditonehundred]

Doubtful, they need Russia because of arms reliance. Otherwise India will probably lean towards the West

[@dracovenit9549]

The USA needs to sign a free trade agreement with NZ so that NZ does not have to rely on China. NZ should also sign up to Pillar 2. NZ will continue to serve the Chinese market and China will also provide NZ with goods and capital. However, the USA needs to make sure to work on that front so that Chinese interests do not interfere with longstanding relationships.

[@alvinseah5423]

The biggest question which should have been asked, is, isnt it extremely important who the next President is going to be? And so, do you support Biden, or Trump?

[@xye-NYC]

It doesn't matter because I can't think of anyone worse than those 2.

[@user-ok6re8gv1q]

wow, so prescient of this guest at 10yrs old. China was going to be a bad actor? ROFL

[@xye-NYC]

Bad actor to whom? To most of 8 billion people on earth, they've done much more good than the US.

[@73oxen]

Getting to only a few seconds, you can see Jonathan fidgeting like a pretentious expert. He turns out to be as expected.

[@cocoanutte]

5:55 he says cannot travel freely all over China. That's BS, had to Stop listening.

[@eliotanderson6554]

Build relation with major players like india

[@ianthesiow3013]

America calls it "Liberation" instead of "Invasion". That was what US call it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia and the list goes on... Why the double standard? Confused... Please enlighten. Genuine question... Instances of the United States "liberated" or overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government) China 1949 to early 1960s Albania 1949-53 East Germany 1950s Iran 1953 * Guatemala 1954 * Costa Rica mid-1950s Syria 1956-7 Egypt 1957 Indonesia 1957-8 British Guiana 1953-64 * Iraq 1963 * North Vietnam 1945-73 Cambodia 1955-70 * Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 * Ecuador 1960-63 * Congo 1960 * France 1965 Brazil 1962-64 * Dominican Republic 1963 * Cuba 1959 to present Bolivia 1964 * Indonesia 1965 * Ghana 1966 * Chile 1964-73 * Greece 1967 * Costa Rica 1970-71 Bolivia 1971 * Australia 1973-75 * Angola 1975, 1980s Zaire 1975 Portugal 1974-76 * Jamaica 1976-80 * Seychelles 1979-81 Chad 1981-82 * Grenada 1983 * South Yemen 1982-84 Suriname 1982-84 Fiji 1987 * Libya 1980s Nicaragua 1981-90 * Panama 1989 * Bulgaria 1990 * Albania 1991 * Iraq 1991 Afghanistan 1980s * Somalia 1993 Yugoslavia 1999-2000 * Ecuador 2000 * Afghanistan 2001 * Venezuela 2002 * Iraq 2003 * Haiti 2004 * Somalia 2007 to present Honduras 2009 * Libya 2011 * Syria 2012 Ukraine 2014 * 2014 - 2022 - 9 countries yet to verify. Pakistan 2022 * Haiti 2022 * Niger 2023

[@netizencapet]

What a fantastic list. Esp. liked that you covered underreported gems like Honduras 2009.

[@ricktasker8248]

It's the economy! Great analysis. I wish you had gotten a little further on how the U.S. should implement "economic containment" against China beyond Trump's tariffs and Biden' tech bans.

[@georgegao1202]

Casting double on intentions is always the first step toward antagonizing your friends

[@Nik-ik8mv]

As Ward says economic containment is a matter of blocking Chinese access to US and allied capital, technology, and markets. Here's how to contain China economically - 1. Slap a 100% tariff on Chinese goods and total ban on Chinese products in strategic industries and technologies as identified numerous times. Also, close the current loophole that allows Chinese goods to be shipped via Mexico, Vietnam etc. by banning by defining Chinese products as made or manufacturered by any company whose ownership is above 10% Chinese-owned. Current loophole allows not only transshipments but allows Chinese companies to manufacture their products in non-China locations fully from start to finish and counts them as non-Chinese products even when those products are of a Chinese company. 2. Ban all US investment in FDI (factories) and FPI (stocks, bonds etc.) in China regardless of any industry high-tech or low-tech. Allow within 2 years, no US investment in China of existing companies and require them to divest from China. 3. Ban all technology or knowledge transfer or IP licensing by any US company to any Chinese entity, private or public: company, university or government and regardless of high or low technology. Require all current technology licensing agreements to wind down in next 5 years. 4. Carry out an intensive sanctioning campaign by sanctioning all Chinese companies who have stolen or even benefitted from any US technology theft in last 40 years. Identify those companies and create an annual list and sanction and secondary-sanction all those companies so they are essentially blocked from global markets and can't sell anywhere except China. 4. Ban all STEM graduate and higher students from China to study in US and instead allow Indian and other foreign talent and give them green cards while launching a massive initiative to rebuild US domestic STEM talent. 5. Ban all new Chinese companies from listing on US stock exchanges and require divestiture of existing Chinese companies from US stock exchanges within 3 years to protect investors. 6. Do all of above with allies and convince them to take same steps, negotiate high-quality trade agreements with them to shield from Chinese retaliation, ensuring US as an alternative export market to China. Of course this is only Ward's first step - economic containment. His second step is to rebuild US economic, technological and industrial base which can be done in many ways. But this is the economic containment of China. Now, this will exact a cost from US because of Chinese retaliation but that's the price we have to be ready to pay if we have long-term vision, instead of next quarter profits that has led US to this moment in first place. I don't mind if Apple loses 40% of its stock market value because of Chinese retaliation. I value defeating CCP over everything else.

[@xye-NYC]

These 2 and those in charge in the US have not read or understood the most important points in The Art of War.

[@daymay1066]

Us can't do much because it has limited leverage. Its only advantage is printing money exporting its inflations to others.....but that advantage will soon come to an end....greenbacks are dying....not today, not next month not next year....but it is dying nonetheless. Once the greenbacks is dead.....Americans will be forced to face the reality they're broke living in an expensive country with dilapidated infrastructures and hardly much healthcare for their man in the streets. Tragic really......what used to be the greatest nation on earth.

[@sinic1978]

America in terminal decline.

[@rhena229]

What “defeat”? Why not cooperate economically? Such colonizer mentality!

[@ibrahimtouman2279]

Contain an economy that is larger than yours 😂

[@ianthesiow3013]

Why lie? You are making a fool of yourself.

[@heimizhou450]

You guys can only talk this topics on paper

[@jamieedwards4475]

Everything is on paper until it happens. "Lets not plan and strategise ahead! Its all theoretical!"

[@heimizhou450]

@@jamieedwards4475 but Chinese CCP is threatening the freedom world right now in economics and military. Real instead only on paper. do you live in paper world?

[@heimizhou450]

@@jamieedwards4475 It already had happened many years. are you live in paper world? everybody knows that Chinese CCP is threatening freedom world right now. do you still want talk its threaten only on paper?

[@hsutahsi]

how he gained a different perspective if he only speaks English

[@keithtran6517]

The problem with these so called experts is that they always look at the confrontational perspective, aka zero sum. So far, all these experts are suck at it. That is where it positioned America today. There is a much better approach that hardly has been discussed or entertained is to work out a win-win strategy. This will definitely be more beneficiaries, not just to both China-US and the world as well. More importantly, it is to avoid global conflict.

[@keepcalm3547]

Thanks for putting up a wonderful podcast and conversation. 10 years ago I told my friends who worked on supply chain for US company that having a supply chain in China for US and western country made no sense they all laughed at me. It’s like putting your livelihood at a thief’s Den at the mercy of the thief and robbers. Much appreciated!

[@tomsewell2462]

Isn't what really pissed off the Xynese was when the Brits burnt down that famous temple (name?) during their Opium War? Hey!, Winnie The Pooh!, That was NOT the USA, Dude!

[@pikachus5m166]

The Summer Palace was the aftermath of the second Opium War. Both Britain and France were the superpowers of the 19thC, and led what was called the Eight Nation Alliance which included the US. The US also greatly profited from the opium trade, Delanos/Roosevelt fortunes and the financing of Yale and Stanford. And today its US imperialism forming new alliances in order to contain China and maintain hegemony, but this time they can fight back.

[@peterdorahy8331]

Great interview thank you

[@peterobila1243]

“You’re in trouble”. A westerner talking about “Values and ideas”. From punitive wars and subjugation to “Values and Ideas”. -->> COLLAPSE

[@netizencapet]

3 cheers for China's success, prosperity, & a more liberalized future! A world awaits those willing to wage peace - especially when stakes & fears are high. Immitate Nixon!

[@tonytan6547]

Sick mentality of USA/West

[@jiahan3849]

Anyone who has doubts of CCP's evil I would recommend a book "Murong Xuecun, Deadly Quiet City: Stories From Wuhan, COVID Ground Zero, Hardie Grant Books, 2022". The author is a Chinese and fled to England after this book was written. If not, he would disappear in a China's prison.

[@bbharatillusion4574]

USA cannot even defeat a Russia who has only a GDP of 2 trillion plus..😂😂😂

[@chrischicago6928]

The ONLY language Mafia society understands is Strength. Bravo Jonathan!

[@buravan1512]

And you Lost that strength...😂

[@shiulai5804]

Agree. America is a Mafia nation

[@importantsomeone153]

@@buravan1512 let them live in dream world a weaker usa means a bettor peaceful world they will create less trouble in other countries less regime change information warfare less funding and support for terrorism

[@Chucka-fv8dd]

This boy does not know what he’s talking about. Maybe he should go to the college, listen to Sarah Paine and get a real education and some serious understanding about global history.

[@user-tw2xg1oh9f]

Why does everyone seem to be so scared to say tariffs?

[@berkosmansatiroglu]

Globalisation.

[@FinanciallyFIREd]

what a snob this guy is

[@Waverlyduli]

Deng's "Hide your strength and bide your time" >> Pooh's hillbilly version Subtle Statesmanship >> Pooh's failed wolf version China CoVid >> Pooh's economy-killing version Economics >> Pooh's ignorant version Ignorance >> "Pooh Thought" version

[@LawrenceReitan]

Wow I can see chinese bots and fake accounts find colourful ways to bad comment this video. It was a great interview guys, thanks for sharing!

[@peterlee309]

In China, we call it Wumao, the name came from every tweet/post, they got rewards for 5 cents (wumao). Wumao is everywhere.

[@kennyyap9745]

Come to Any Chinese in the World ...u will be gone...a BRAINLESS ITS Who talk nonsense like you

[@Space_Magic_cube]

haah ,robot comes

[@XinaCCPFreeTibet]

India is not going to tow the American line.

[@jiripesinaify]

Sit-com.