Huge Gaming Drama

[@MogulMail]

MOBILE USERS I GOT YOU CLICK HERE FOR TICKETS TO CHESSBOXING ► bit.ly/mogul_chessboxing

[@wideeric1]

We need a chess master VS a boxing master to face off

[@pateosinco4773]

You still haven't told us what you have done with Ludwig. Eventually, we will have to know!

[@jakelewis8345]

thanks, now bring back ludwig

[@trepson4258]

@@wideeric1 No we don't. Cringe idea!

[@trepson4258]

@@pateosinco4773 Cringe

[@x3dfritz0]

To clarify a little: The OST and the in game music were in different contracts. Mick was paid for the OST and was given his on time bonus. He produced 286 minutes of music for the game (double the contracted amount due to ID scrapping several suites, samples, etc.) but was paid for the contracted amount 142 minutes. The problem is THEY USED ALL 286 minutes! The suites, samples, etc that they scrapped THEY STILL USED.

[@mfnbpwnz]

so slander and theft.

[@Elvesflame]

Do those extra 144 minutes legally belong to Mick then? Can he turn around and demand compensation for it's use, or is there some contract fuckery that technically includes those extra minutes as usable by id Software?

[@youraveragegamer8832]

@@mfnbpwnz More likely libel

[@jebbyy32]

@@Elvesflame we haven't seen the contract, but allegedly his contract said he would be compensated for any extra minutes used.

[@jonny-b4954]

@@jebbyy32 Seems like a pretty reasonable and common request. One an experienced or old timer in the industry would know to have in a contract. That kind of thing. So, doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I'm sure we will see the contract eventually.

[@jamievouches506]

Mick didn’t deserve an ounce of the backlash, and I hope he gets his hands on those awards that HE won, he deserves them

[@terrylace9699]

I hate to do this to you, but it's Mick, not Mike. Just wanted to briefly point that out! Edit: Nvm. It got fixed by the OP!

[@subaesubae]

Who is mike?

[@burtreynolds8030]

@@terrylace9699 probably iPhone autocorrect, happened to me

[@jamievouches506]

@@terrylace9699 your right, I don’t know if that was just autocorrect or I subconsciously put Mike instead LOL thanks for letting me know

[@terrylace9699]

@@jamievouches506 Of course, glad I was able to help. The same thing happens to me all the time when I want to say something, but stupid autocorrect prevents me from doing that. 😅

[@Spiney09]

“We tried to give Mick as much time and money as possible” Press X to doubt

[@eriksvensson2098]

ah yes there is plenty of time and money available - management can i have more time and money? - worker oh, we dont have that, actually can you work harder, faster, better for lower pay? no - worker was that a yes? Great! :) - management >:( - worker

[@themagiccookie2614]

@@eriksvensson2098 ahh so nostalgic

[@LightSilver7]

X

[@Redmanticore]

kek, its what every fan _wants_ to believe, that these are made as "art," not as a "business." they ate it immediately hook line and sink, because that's what they really wanted to believe..

[@HyperMario64]

​@@Redmanticore To be fair, this is still some awful business practices. Once again, Bethesda in general looks like an horrible company to work for. id used to be better and actually respect its coworkers. You can crunch, work hard all you want and still be somewhat happy. Mick just got shat on thouroughly.

[@DarkSwordsman]

I'm surprised that Mick hasn't sued for Defamation, since this has tangibly affected his career. He should easily win.

[@prismatica8416]

It's not that easy, in court not only do you have to prove damages, you have to prove malicious intent. Unfortunately for defamation if you don't have incredible receipts that prove intent, or evidence thar blatantly contradicts the allegations (such as in Depp V Heard). Proving defamation is often a fruitless endeavor in the US. He may still have a case, but its gonna be a tremendous uphill battle who when up against anyone with competent lawyers could be stopped.

[@raza2594]

@@prismatica8416 But he has evidence of that? And it should be pretty fucking easy to prove estimated damages using statistics and data on his earnings/time worked/contracts he would have gotten if he continued the same way, etc. Hell, with how many screenshots he has, the only reason it would be an uphill battle would be if the big company tried to delay the lawsuit to bankrupt him/add to the mental pressure.

[@Quintessence4444]

@@prismatica8416 And that wasn't against a massive corporation with an army of lawyers.

[@prismatica8416]

@@raza2594 Malicious intent, is the key here. It doesn't matter if he became homeless as a result of what CEO dipshit said if malicious intent can't be proven.

[@chriskurth8029]

@@prismatica8416 doesn't the bribe for 100k to take blame show malicious intent?

[@Retroman1]

Shoutout to Mick for not only keeping his head down to the grindstone but turning around and putting out some of the best engineering on some major albums in the meantime, dude seriously turned around and made some incredible projects even when people were doubting him

[@Lezzyboy87]

Did guitar on some tracks on the last Monuments album that slapped

[@Blaze-wb6bk]

He did Post human survival horror by Bring me the horizon. Insane album/EP

[@carterowens2522]

Some great stuff with motionless in white too

[@dzeronut_boy]

Why couldn't corporations have competent people? It's just so depressing to hear this unfold

[@AristophMarloque]

I think the general public severely overestimates the quality of said general public. There aren't that many competent people in the world. So the spots have gotta be filled by someone, even if they're a shitty human being. And shitty human beings tend to surround themselves with other shitty human beings, for obvious reasons.

[@dzeronut_boy]

@@AristophMarloque That's a very interesting take. Thanks for your thoughts on it o7

[@acrow5]

@@dzeronut_boy The other take is that to get a high position in a company, you have to be ruthless, greedy and narcissistic. That isn't the case for every executive in every company, but the more stories we hear about those people's actions and mindset, the more it seems like that is the majority.

[@Outofrealman]

Because it is proven time and time again they can get away with it, since people are easily fooled and have goldfish memories.

[@dzeronut_boy]

@@acrow5 Unfortunately, you're right on that take. It'd be nice if people were less cutthroat though it would probably affect competitiveness and such. Thanks your sharing your thoughts o7

[@whoahanant]

Bethesda: This is a one-sided unjust attack against us Also Bethesda: Allows employee to make a one-sided unjust attack against someone else.

[@bored_boar]

Kinda funny that they were whining as well seeing as they're an entire fkin company ragging on one individual.

[@EoLSkorvan]

what good has bethesda ever done, all I've heard about them is just pure garbage, the games, their decisions, their company in it self, their leaders, all of it is just trash

[@CabbageYe]

People are so stupid. Did you guys not learn anything from Bayonetta situationen? I wouldn't be surprised if he's lying

[@bored_boar]

@@CabbageYe Except he's got a lot of evidence to back up his claims while Helena didn't... Y'all are so cynical that you'd rather believe a soulless corporation over another man's word 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@musicalprodigy126]

@@CabbageYe He has a 14k document detailing EVERYTHING that happened (compiled by a legal team over the course of 2 years) in comparison to Helena presenting no physical proof at all. The two situations are completely different. Bethesda isn’t gonna kiss you bro!

[@Toscoou]

This is not a gaming scandal, this is years of work and dedication from a profesional. It's a class scandal

[@Vultzzzz]

damn right! people have to see the bigger picture that corporations are getting way too comfy with screwing over ppl

[@jovand6606]

I had gone trough similar shit freelancing, it made me get sick of computer graphics and web development. Now i i have noormal 9 to 5 job doing technical maintenance, im much happier.

[@highdefinition450]

Not mutually exclusive

[@AppleGameification]

what are you trying to say?

[@notpank]

@@AppleGameification a competent, professional worker gets virtually blacklisted by a corporate giant over their own lies. It is a class issue - whoever holds the capital is not your friend or ally, will never be.

[@DrumRollTonyReacts]

It hurts to see a musician on Mick's level have to go through such pain from public and corporate. Artists endure so much. I'm glad you made a video that has such a wide reach.

[@greatcesari]

Love your music breakdowns, and I 100% agree. Being an artist is a very difficult career from my understanding, and having a corporation slander you while offering hush money is unneeded stress and humiliation.

[@JohnSmith-kb4re]

"artists endure so much" as they fucking deserve to be. subhuman trash who leech off of society by making stickman figures or banging two instruments together instead of being productive

[@라마현명한]

@@greatcesari The simply fact that someone is offering hush money is already more than enough of a public statement that presents shame and admitment. Doubling down on that is an act of disrespect of anyone's work and time put into these type of projects. Companies who do this should face serious legal consequences but sadly in a capitalistic world that won't happen. But since this is all somewhat connected to Bethesda.. we already know they like to slack and overvalue their own products so nothing new here.

[@Devali198]

as a learning composer (apprentice), i understand the time and effort that goes into each composition.

[@ViewTube_Emperor_of_Mankind]

So Marty thought he could set someone off to fail, steal his work, not pay at all, blame everything on the one he stole from and then publicly shaming the person and trying to pay that person to uphold his version of “the truth” that is an absolute psychopath move and the worst possible person you can have in a management position. How can that guy still have his job????

[@Pants.69]

Because Bethesda isn’t exactly known for being the most morally upstanding companies out there

[@XMysticHerox]

It's also someone thats probably surprisingly good at social maneuvering in management. There is a reason upper management has so many psychopaths.

[@Yes-dx1gd]

.... that's exactly why he has his job, when you forget the number one thing is making money and not being a nice company, they're a company, they exist for one reason and one reason only, to part people from their money for a product, regardless if the product is well made. The only time they care about how they look/conduct themselves is when it loses them money.

[@KY_100]

You'll relatively often find psychopaths in management at all levels

[@ItsFlom]

Mick: Here are literal pieces of evidence proving that baseless reddit post wrong Bethesda: We have more proof... trust.

[@Spazzmaz]

yeah true BETHASDA didnt show shit

[@payapiper]

It’s just like Bethesda to make promises that they can’t deliver on

[@DanioniCampiel]

Trust me bro

[@sypnopsis5946]

"Source: Trust me Bro" - Sun Tzu Art of Internet

[@victoriazero8869]

Lmao

[@MoonWielder]

My heart goes out to Mick Gordan. DOOM 2016 was my gateway into Metal, and seeing this skilled composer get thrown under the bus is fucking disgusting. He easily made one of the best OSTs out there under horrible management. I will always stand by him for his hard work!

[@hjonkhjonkamgoose]

Cannot agree more He got me into Metal as well. Doom 2016 had the best soundtrack ever

[@theShadeslayer]

real

[@legros731]

Gateway to metal lol it not metal it maybe soft rock at best And it absolutely not one of the best OST there ton of NES and SNES with better OST that doom 2016 and they are not even cd quality audio

[@legros731]

@@hjonkhjonkamgoose lol

[@tstsus6632]

@@legros731 obvious bait is obvious.

[@joeyaknow1103]

I saw someone donate to Ludwig on stream asking him to look into this and make a Mogul Mail and Ludwig said he'd look into it off stream. Big props to Ludwig and actually following up, doing the research and posting a video. I've seen mentions of this incident here and there online but I never would have done looked into it all myself. Thanks for the video Ludwig. Go team Mick!

[@funkuro]

Sorry? What are you talking about? It’s been made very clear that Ludwig IS NOT mogul mail. Please check your facts next time. Thank you.

[@urbainleverrier1]

@@funkuro fr it's getting annoying it was funny at first but please just stop

[@theokayishgamer]

@@funkuro Ngl, you're a bit cringe.

[@funkuro]

@@urbainleverrier1 I thought this was a recent thing? I also haven’t really seen it be overused but alr.

[@urbainleverrier1]

@@funkuro huh

[@AdThe1st]

The fact Mick wanted to finish to OST is just proof of his legend status

[@EloraSmith]

In the audio world, it can be such a battle to get people to realise the sound often needs to come last. A really good team will obviously communicate with the composer, listen and give them what they need in good time.

[@Jokoko2828]

"Here, bro, make music for this thing that doesn't even exist yet, good luck!" "What do you mean you need actual gameplay footage to get the feel right? Have this random concept art we have instead." Like, I'm just baffled they told the dude to basically wing it and expected quality product.

[@geosama1317]

I'm not even a musician but i can't even imagine how in the hell one's supposed to make a music for a game that doesn't even exist yet.

[@comet.x]

and if it doesn't come last you better be prepared to make the level or game around the sound

[@-Jake]

I work at a huge corporation, and this type of stuff runs rampant. Cant explain the blood boiling rage when even the tiniest percentage of this happens to you, and you're powerless against it. Imagine how badly he wanted to blurt all this out these past 3 years. Seriously painful.

[@spammus1]

And it's always contractors or normal employees who get hit harder by this, instead of the actual higher ups who screw things up. I'm sure Stratton will still be the head of id still, just like how Bobby Kotick is still Activision/Blizzard's CEO despite all the investigations going on about the awful working conditions in those studios. High ups just slay hundreds of employees before getting affected by anything

[@l0ss322]

Lud's journalism degree is finally helping him these days. This is so eloquently put together

[@HostileAtHeart]

Literally has served him well since the very beginning of his career.

[@milesbuss4856]

Who’s Ludwig? This is Mogul Mail’s channel.

[@ithankyou5903]

Who's Ludwig? This is Mr. Mogul M. Mail!

[@jschlatticusmaximus8590]

Ludwig? You must be confused, this is Mogul Mail.

[@HostileAtHeart]

@@jschlatticusmaximus8590 The joke is wearing a bit thin now... It's been months.

[@muqmanor]

Honestly, it's kind of crazy to me that so many people just believed Marty's Reddit post. Like, if the Big Company is getting a bunch of backlash because they've fucked up and aren't delivering on previous promises and then a corporate leader from that company very loudly and publicly blames an independent contractor with a spotless record for those issues.... how likely is it really that the corporate guy is being truthful?

[@irecordwithaphone1856]

True but Mick Gordon staying silent definitely didn't help the matter. I still think he made the right move but to an outside perspective it just looks weird to not respond

[@sorashiro7611]

@@irecordwithaphone1856 he waited years to have the perfect defense complete with evidences and receipts so

[@irecordwithaphone1856]

@@sorashiro7611 Well yeah I said I think he made the right move but I'm just saying at the time from an outsiders perspective it looked bizarre. Even in Charlie and Yong's video's they said they weren't sure who to believe at the time

[@muqmanor]

@@irecordwithaphone1856 I don't necessarily disagree that Mick's silence made the situation weird, and I think "I'm not sure who to believe" was a perfectly reasonable stance at the time. What I don't understand is how so many people skipped right over that and went straight to "Marty must be telling the truth, fuck Mick". Because there were A LOT of those.

[@WanderTheNomad]

@@muqmanor Because people tend to believe the first story they hear, regardless of how true it is. In this day and age, it is not a good thing to do, but it is very very normal to do.

[@Shawn-on6wm]

As a fellow audio engineer, composer and sound designer... Mick is one of THE most professional and stand up guy in the entire industry.

[@honorableintent]

Mick is a lovely guy. I reached out to him via email and he responded within hours (despite it being close to 10pm where he lives at the time) and asked that I keep in touch. Wonderful fellow, definitely deserves better.

[@fingmoron]

Did you keep in touch

[@honorableintent]

@@fingmoron Yes actually! We've been talking music, since I've started my first album recently.

[@fingmoron]

@@honorableintent good luck with the album tell me when you've finished so I can listen please :)

[@Ashragi]

As someone who used to work in the audio industry, I'm absolutely FLOORED that they announced the OST with Mick's name on it without Mick having at least intent to sign the contract (intent meaning he's verbally agreed and pending paper work, not that he mentioned he'd be interested but no terms were discussed). In the audio world that's literally a sueable offense. I came across these posts in the opposite order, and I went to completely on Micks side when Marty not only said that was what happened, *doubles down it was the right decision*. It was not. That could be the only issue and I'd stand by Mick on him never working with Id again. That's a big fucking deal.

[@tlanimass952]

I don't even understand it from Mick's perspective. If I was him, I would've just refused to sign the contract for the OST until I got my favorable terms (such as all of the pay from work owed + all $ upfront for any new work, since clearly the company can't pay on time). What would they have done? Clearly they can't release the OST with his name on it without his permission and no contract. Sure they own the assets and deliverables, but I highly doubt that they can put the artists name without his permission.

[@shinydragon69]

@@tlanimass952 If you go into the post a little bit, it's not that simple for him to do so, AND things were a lot more fucked up than Ludwig portrayed. So Mick had gotten a verbal agreement on a contract for the OST in January, but thought it a poor idea to work on it at all until a contract had been signed instead of just verbalized (fair, considering the donowall treatment he had received until this point from ID). Slow responses prevented him from getting a signed contract until MARCH. So he then pulled all-nighters for 2 weeks straight just to get his 12 tracks delivered by the 16th of April. At this point he had been paid for his contracted minutes of work on the game itself and for the OST. So he did get "all of the pay from work owed + all $ upfront for any new work". The shittiest part is them using more minutes of music than they contracted OR payed him for. The part of the story where he was making music for gameplay that didn't exist comes in here. He was composing music and then later they would dismiss that music, saying it wasn't going to be used and they wouldn't pay him for it. It turns out though, that they DID use that music. Almost all the music that they said they would NOT use, and they would NOT pay him for (all under contract btw), they ended up using in the game. So basically they rejected his music during development phase to make him compose twice the amount of music and not having to pay him for it. It's super fucked up.

[@faizahmohammedaruwa]

@@shinydragon69 Dear God Almighty!!! These people are horrible!!! Were they trying to be smart or business savvy or something??? How do you treat another human being like that and still be able to soundly sleep at night???

[@Ashragi]

@@shinydragon69 this is missing a little bit of important context. The months mentioned here are from the from the year following the announcement of the OST, not earlier in the same year. All that had been discussed prior to the announcement of the OST was Mick mentioning they should look into making a deal and Marty saying later. Also these dates are iirc (I didn’t watch the video and read the write up over a week ago and I’m too lazy to verify lol) after the original planned release date of the game, and Mick found out the delay at the same time we did lol.

[@Ashragi]

@@tlanimass952 And this is why it’s a huge huge issue. If he refuses and they take his name off of it, it hurts his reputation cause it was announced with his name on it. Or alternatively it’s possible to phrase the name of “Mick Gordon’s Doom Eternal OST” or whatever in such a way as to legally be able to say “it is called such because it is all from the compositions of Mick Gordon and he did not work on it”. So now he’s in a shitty situation where he can’t say no. And then (according to Mick, I believe him but should disclaim “two sides to every story”) the opposite happened. He’s already in a position they can’t say no and now they’re refusing to give him the chance to say yes BECAUSE they know he can’t say no. It seems the contract was negotiated through Bethesda so Mick dodged the bullet but it’s MICK’s reputation that gets ruined, not Id’s, they 100% coulda strong armed for shittier terms. I’m not sure how an examination of this would hold up in court, but there’s potential argument for it being a bad faith contract for Mick even if Mick was fine with the eventual deal worked out.

[@aghostonsocialmedia1688]

Props to Mick for not committing homicide

[@rival_672]

Or suicide

[@rougebluefire]

I would have

[@Algrymm]

Using Rip and Tear as a soundtrack

[@benjiusofficial]

Bro, Mick is the kinda dude who'd do it. Dude is a madman and a legend.

[@nathanitet]

Or suicide, tbh. The shit he went through because of them could very well have been enough so push someone over the brink.

[@evanshearin6490]

"Just hold the hate internally" is my favorite piece of advice I've ever heard on the internet.

[@drayvinwilliams2389]

That sounds like terrible advice lmfao

[@justjuniorjaw]

@@drayvinwilliams2389 The beginnings of either an edgelord... or a villain.

[@mac6417]

@@drayvinwilliams2389 ikr 🤣

[@JYinferno684]

dont you mean to hate ETERNALLY…………..

[@WanderTheNomad]

@@drayvinwilliams2389 If the other option is releasing that hate as harmful actions to others, then I would say that keeping it in is the better choice. Especially when you don't have all the facts and details yet, so you don't fully understand the thing that is causing you to feel hatred.

[@NeverToBeSeenAgain]

the other reason OSTs are more work is because you don't necessarily write every song in a game to be a "full song" with an intro, bridges, chorus, verses, solos, outros, etc. Sometimes its just multiple loops that can flow into one another repeatedly until the player hits a certain trigger to change the music. There is a lot of extra writing and arranging to be done to turn game music into complete songs. This is also why the audio engineer can claim to be an artist on those tracks. Arranging and cutting together is more or less sampling, and that is a form of artistry, so it is justified, if not a bit scummy.

[@declan781]

I don't think Mick minds that the engineer is claiming credit - he just minds that his reputation has been dragged through the mud because his OWN name is linked to the songs which he clearly takes no pride in and which have affected his professional reputation despite his lack of involvement with these 47 songs

[@PHeMoX]

This is actually false Matthew. You'd never provide only 'an intro to an incompleted song' and pretend it's a full song within any contract. That's not how it works at all. A musician can write song sketches / ideas and have like variations on multiple intros, most of which wouldn't get used at all. However, you'd never get paid for incomplete music. "There is a lot of extra writing and arranging to be done to turn game music into complete songs." No, not really true at all. Most game songs ARE complete songs. "Sometimes its just multiple loops that can flow into one another repeatedly until the player hits a certain trigger to change the music." You can make literally anything loop seamlessly, not to mention how modern games often don't have endless loops on a repeat forever until trigger moment for the next song at all. You will see games shuffle multiple background tracks and multiple songs when you just wait around forever. Plenty of games also have just the continuous sound of wind or rain or city noises in the background for most of the time, instead of high octane sound tracks blasting through your monitors all the time. The idea that music in a video game is a loop on a repeat forever cycle is wildly ignorant. This mix between sound EFFECTS, background noises and songs is usually done in-game. Mick Gordon doesn't create the audio for explosions, nor probably the background noise tracks.

[@NeverToBeSeenAgain]

@@PHeMoX I simplified my explanation quite a bit for the general public. Not sure if you've ever provided music for games, but the few I've done did require me to do some arranging after the fact to finish the OST. Granted, I'm an amateur and these were shorter indie games, but to each their own! Maybe big AAA games do it differently!

[@liesandy291]

@@declan781 more like he wanted to add credits to those he got the inspiration and worked with.

[@dannybrickwell]

@@PHeMoX This reads like you only have second hand experience with game audio implementation

[@themrluckykangaroo]

I hope we get an update on this. It'd break my heart to see Marty and Bethesda get away with this with no justice for Mick just by ignoring the situation. If we want them to be held accountable, we have to ensure they are.

[@blair3nova]

I'm so disgusted by this company. That's so ruthless to throw Mick under the bus like that. The lack of integrity on Marty's part is appalling and the exploitation that Mick had to suffer is heartbreaking. As someone that's been studying music most of their life and hoping to someday work in this industry, I'm horrified at the lack of standards and respect being given to such a talented individual. My heart goes out to him and I hope his reputation can be restored. Thanks for the update on this, Ludwig. Having information like this in such a digestable and concise format really helps me personally keep up with everything going on. I really respect the work you do on this channel.

[@h3rpad3rpacifilis]

I think a lot of people devalue creatives in general due to their own ignorance. They think anything that requires creativity just needs "someone creative" to diddle a few knobs on the "creativity machine" and effortly squeeze out a result. That's just not how it works. It takes years of practice, reflection and self-improvement to get to a high degree of performance. Even outside of that, it takes time to process and develop any type of art to a high standard. Artists dont just wake up one day and just piece it all together, but suits think that's how it works and suddenly they feel they're paying too much.

[@Nami8302_OwO]

Don't work in the industry, start a new one.

[@ChadAF_YT]

Ive worked doing music for KZbin videos, phone apps/games, and a couple other things. It is always like this. I only make music for fun now.

[@qualicumjack3906]

If you could get paid to make music, everyone would do it

[@nicolausteslaus]

@@Nami8302_OwO He is a cashier at Mac lol

[@Walker-vm6bf]

This is one of the times ive watched a Mogul Mail and felt disgusted and genuine sadness towards the situation. I hope it all gets resolved and Mick gets the happy ending he wants

[@PirataEscondido]

Giggity

[@Muskar2]

"One of the times". Assuming domestic abuse is another one, or am I the only one who thinks that's way worse than Mick's situation?

[@justsomekirbowithoutamusta1852]

@@Muskar2 How about not comparing abuse with abuse?

[@AngeloGene]

Honestly, I prefer the people who wronged him gets bad and heavy Karma.

[@Muskar2]

@@justsomekirbowithoutamusta1852 I'm sorry. You reminded me how comparing abuse have had bad results in my past. Plus, I think I read the OP's message wrong initially.

[@AC03115]

Mick Gordon is one of my favorite composers in the industry who created two of my favorite video game soundtracks ever with Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, reading his statement about the awful treatment he went through for seemingly no reason is heartbreaking. The fact that despite the crunch and disrespect he received, he still made one of the best gaming soundtracks ever goes to show just how talented of a person he his, I'll always support him and I'm glad you and other people are covering this story

[@NaughtMax]

Micks story is both heart breaking but also relieving to hear. The claims about him just not delivering never sat right with me. His GDC talk about the doom soundtrack is a major reason why I started playing music to begin with, and it was really hard to swallow that a guy that passionate and hard working could’ve dropped the ball.

[@poochy661]

I'm sad to hear Mick didn't get properly treated here - I hope he gets the reward he deserves and we can get some proper tracks released.

[@MichaelAE]

100% team Mick on this one. You made some good points. As an audio engineer, I know Mick could've made better edits in a week than were on the OST. I've also had these kinds of clients and it wears you down. Had they communicated with him, we could've had one of the best OSTs to ever exist, but I believe they screwed him over because they were jealous of his success and weren't willing to pay him. They deliberately compromised his workflow in order to be able to blame him for things he had no control over. They screwed him over a second time, when they announced a product with his name on it, when he wasn't even informed and had no contract. This was either mismanagement, or another attempt to blame him later so they wouldn't have to pay. The most important piece of evidence regarding the soundtrack that gets overlooked, is that the audiofiles have metadata on them. You can see exactly when a project was made. They started working on the OST well before they contacted Mick about anything. The dates in these files show that Marty lied in his Reddit post. The statement Bethesda made wasn't any better than the Reddit post. They claim Mick has "mischaracterized and misrepresented the team", when he had stated, multiple times, that he in no way had any issues with anyone on the team. The issues he had were mismanagement and the fact that they tried to blame him for everything to ruin his reputation. He mentioned Marty, but he only said he was hard to work with. If Marty said the same about Mick in his Reddit post, which he did, how on earth is this a misrepresentation or mischaracterization? (EDIT: To make my point more clear: If person A finds person B hard to work with, than surely it is not unlikely that person B finds person A hard to work with.) The most hypocritical part of their statement however, is that they blame Mick for "harassment and threats", when the Reddit post they posted first had the exact same effect on Mick; which is clearly evidenced on social media. And Mick specifically stated multiple times that he did not want people to harass or threaten anyone, which is the exact same thing Bethesda is saying here. How is that any more inciting? From all of de evidence I've seen, it is clear Bethesda is lying to mislead people. It's shameful and I'm glad you've brought some more attention to this with this video!

[@jebbyy32]

The meta data thing is something that alot of people are glossing over like it's nothing but if we look at AH v JD as a good public example. Meta data was a big factor in proving when images were taken. That evidence to me is pretty damming in proving atleast Martys timeline is not consistent

[@AndreasInLondon]

Well said

[@MichaelAE]

​@@jebbyy32 Well said and good analogy!

[@uninterestedcat8429]

He didnt actually work on the OST they used tho, some intern under one of the audio engineers did. Like charlie said, i refuse to believe it was the actual audio engineer cuz it was so shit.

[@SaylinkGaming]

Another important thing to note is that Mick brought up the OST contract to Bethesda in January, but nothing was signed on until two days before the game's launch. 2 DAYS. This means Mick literally had about a MONTH to work on AND finish the agreed music for release. That's absolute crunch insanity.

[@TheFimpish]

Right. Mick didn't get a contract for the OST til MARCH 18TH. Ludwig missed it in the video but it's a very important point on the timeline.

[@Taimoorabdullah]

Ludwig! mate you missed some crucial tidbits: - The music that mick imagined and was rejected, for the ingame scores, was most likely used up as well, mick mentioned that Id/Doom used twice the minutes used and never paid him (the contract said any extra music used will be paid for). He only found this out after the game's release. (for the reader: in game scores are pieces of music that are chained together inside the game software that reacts to the current situation and actions e.g. fight music, platforming, sneaking etc) - Any music that makes it to the game or OSTs, has to be approved from Id's side, specially by Marty since he was on that Approval board. Mick was PAID for the OSTs contract, which means Marty approved those. The thing mick isnt paid for (till this date), is the extra minutes of ingame scores. And early on, they werent paying mick because they just wouldnt approve the music on purpose which later they used twice the amount of. - Mick was not allowed to hear the final versions of the OSTs that were released nor was his approval or feedback required as per the contract. - Chad did not compose or create his own music for OSTs(it sounds like that in the vid), he used the ingame scores that Mick had provided and he did a terrible job stringing them together which was noticed early on as 'mick made bad music' on twitter. This is the reason mick is upset at Chad being attributed in credits, also there are few tracks of OSTs that Mick made, and Chad only renamed the files and got his name credited. My own speculation: Marty probably was never going to give Mick the contract for OSTs, as he had Chad make it from the ingame scores way ahead of announcement (shown from the 6 months old dates in metadata from files that Chad sent to mick after mick got the contact) because the scores were already made by mick, hence they could use his name and mick only got the contract from Bethesda by going behind Marty's back and asking Bethesda for a contract himself.

[@Linlinstellaluna]

The weird timing discrepancy with the ost contract is confusing, but it makes much more sense with that context.

[@basedtortellini]

So if id software weren’t planning on contracting Mick for the OST, why would Bethesda have given their approval? Im probably missing something but this doesnt add up to me.

[@Linlinstellaluna]

@@basedtortellini It's because Bethesda and ID software are composed of different teams, even if they're both from the same family of companies. When Mick reached out to Bethesda, their management team likely didn't realize that Marty was acting behind Mick's back on the ost, and signed that contract to cover their legal bases before the ost was publicly released.

[@basedtortellini]

@@Linlinstellaluna ohhhh ok, yeah i didnt understand the legal part, thank you. But now i wonder why marty didnt want to work with mick on the OST, im assuming its a money thing though

[@ThePolarpop]

@@basedtortellini theres alot of speculation about being super underhanded to meet budget issues rldr

[@sharpieman2035]

I’m knowledgeable on music and can confirm making a separate OST is definitely a separate project that needs a contract.

[@liesandy291]

Besides having a contract is just good basic practices.

[@mariemossy1389]

No matter what, I will always be on the side of the artist especially in an industry like this. This situation is exactly what I always expected. Good luck Mick.

[@jakegearhart]

11:07 Another difficulty is that game music is intended to loop, and often has elements that are tied to gameplay. For example, you might have a drum track that starts playing and looping only when you have half HP. You not only have to master the track differently given that there are no sound effects, you have to construct a piece of music that’s satisfying to listen to out of a bunch of loop pieces that are meant to fit with gameplay.

[@qualicumjack3906]

That’s overthinking it. You make good music in standard time and it sounds good looped

[@jakegearhart]

@@qualicumjack3906 It's not overthinking, this is how it works. I am studying game music composition in college.

[@PIVfirestarkproducon]

@@jakegearhart Studying game music composition in college pales in comparison to the credentials of being a certified Redditor™ like Qualicum Jack

[@jakegearhart]

@ESports Academy Oh really? Then why is there currently a bug in Pokémon Scarlet & Violet that loops one bar during the Elite four battle. Broken: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqXIf2qVpcZqiNk Intended: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqXIf2qVpcZqiNk The bar is intended to loop until you press A on the "You are challenged by XXXX of the Elite Four!" But it does not always trigger properly in the release build of the game.

[@johndough8115]

@@jakegearhart You are intentionally Misrepresenting the REAL issue. The issue, is that he COMPRESSED the audio to SH*T.. making it sound like DOG POOP. It doesnt surprise me.. that CULTIST Radicals like yourself, would do such a thing. You have no real morals and values.

[@treyhouse6581]

As someone who’s been following this drama since day one, I’m glad this stuff is getting more mainstream attention

[@medi8819]

Love mogul mail, I wish one day we could see ludwig as co-host.

[@Brian.92]

bro luds dead, got shot

[@Fathom_CC]

overdone

[@hanskranz9897]

Original joke

[@ManaMonteo]

I had to re make a company sound track 4 times because of the same thing that they just wouldn’t give me any ideas of what theme they wanted so I had to use my imagination. So unbelievably frustrating and that was peanuts compared to Mick. I applaud the patience and dedication this man had.

[@fatemakhan3843]

Marty : Writes the op-ed in an hour saying why Mick sucks. Mick : Proceeds to take 2 years writing a Game Of Thrones sized op-ed on why MARTY SUCKS. #JusticeForMick ✊

[@rhelium5927]

as a musician (of metal mostly and as a fan of Mick) myself I'm sad to learn of all of this drama i hadnt previously been made aware of. It's difficult to write, mix, and master quality music on a deadline. And on top of being made with a set theme and vision of someone elses design in mind? damn. my heart hurts.

[@sexmansex4776]

never get into the game industry. it's exclusively made of passionless scum who like to milk all types of artists for all they're worth.

[@RetiredRobot]

You listen to Monuments? Mick helped write their newest album :)

[@roserose6418]

IF he had no notes/ info from them. Everything he created must've been born from pure passion and knowledge for the game... they just used him, it's so sad. Really hope he comes out on top

[@Firestxr]

Really nasty situation. The thing that bothers me most is the possibility of many similar cased to this happening in the industry that were just swept under the rug

[@realbry400]

You know what else is nasty? Lud's pop filter. Is that peanut butter?

[@xle6114]

Mick Gordon is already a legend for making such bad ass music but working under so harsh work conditions and still pumping out some of the best metal of all time puts Mick on a whole other level

[@ruslanstormborn]

No wonder Mick made perfect songs for DOOM... he was in hell personally!

[@GhostStealth590]

As an editor and cinematographer, this entire story hit me so hard. Lessons you'll learn in this field: people are shitty You'll have a product shipped early, get ghosted for a week or two, then last possible minute be given a list of revisions. Always always always have a contract, and when working with big names, hire a creative-industry lawyer to assist making that contract. Big companies will always attempt to find a way to cut corner and fuck you over. Make sure you're protected.

[@ljjlljjl9212]

11:00 Mick only got an actual contract for the OST Contract in March. He reached out to Bethesda in January about it and Marty's post tries to imply that Mick got the contract then but Mick included a receipt of the contract he received that is dated March, 2 days before Doom Eternal was released and a month before the April deadline.

[@cz85]

These follow up videos are so important. Thank you for doing them. It teaches us to be maybe a little more patient and give more compassion. Especially when it's a giant multi national company vs just one guy.

[@Skyewastaken2]

I’m so glad this all finally came out. Mick didn’t deserve any of the hate

[@kaurm804]

Mick: Yo here's a 53-minute audio thats prob most explained reponse to drama Bethesda: Hes wrong

[@jtrooper9749]

It would be quite nice if in the future you could include links to the article you're referring to, obviously not all the reddit and twitter posts as that was be a pain in the arse, but the main article in this. Makes things easier

[@caseyriley1014]

Thank you for covering this, it's incredibly unfair what's been done to Mick, and they deserve so much better for the unbelievable music they created

[@darkphoenix2]

I'm only a few minutes into this, but I want to give props to the way Ludwig breaks this down. I watched Moistcritical's video earlier and he presented it in his usual style, but I think it set up a very "oh wow Mick Gordon is totally the good guy here" narrative and Charlie didn't go as in depth on the background like Ludwig did with examples of the OST audio quality. I know Charlie offers a unique style of humor but I think it's important to present these stories really well and Lud deserves props for the effort he puts into these videos.

[@Killer66hitman]

I've seen both and enjoy Charlie's style myself and can sift through his bias, but I'm right with you here that this video was extremely well presented and explained

[@battlebots1]

Journalism degree pog

[@lukebortot7625]

For anyone wondering, one of the reason why it takes so much work to release the official soundtrack, specifically for doom, is that the sounds you hear in game are not songs. From what I understand, the game produces music in a generative way based on game play. The game has thousands of level specific sounds clips and instrumental riffs that are all triggered by specific actions or scenes in the game. The job he originally signed up for was to create these sounds and riffs. To make a soundtrack, the job then becomes to take these sounds then arrange and mix them to produce listenable songs, basically to compose music.

[@Borderlines]

Marty Stratton started this by pointing the finger at Mick Gordon 2 years ago. Mick respected the time frame he was allowed before he spoke up and brought the receipts. A reverse Hellena if you will

[@ultimamage3]

He pulled a Jason Schreier while Marty pulled a Helena.

[@skittlr]

“Hey, did you know you have rights?” -Ludwig

[@Spiney09]

Someone might want to start a crowdfunding campaign for Lawyers for Mick, he’ll probably need it soon.

[@flilium2086]

I fell in love with Mick Gordons music while playing PREY. Absolutely loved it. Man is the most talented game music engineer and composer in the world. I know that this kind of treatment will hurt and leave scars but I really hope that he can somehow put up his middle fingers and just move on from this cruel company and go somewhere else and make the next hit game hit even harder with his hard hitting hits.

[@zippo718]

After this, smart companies should be climbing over each other to sign Mick for the good PR alone. Getting some great music is a bonus.

[@Fr0zenXCinema]

Mick Gordon has always been one of the GOATs in terms of video game OSTs. He and his work has inspired people like Casey Edwards, who has made arguably some of the best modern video game music of all time (Bury The Light). I had always gave him the benefit of the doubt, as he has never shown malice or negligence in any project he has been a part of. Mick should be supported purely off of his talent, passion, and value, but should be especially be now seeing how he was treated by a titan of the industry. Mick has been a consistent legend who has essentially created a newly inspired generation of musicians that are making gaming music for many years to come.

[@Tawnos_]

"he has never shown malice or negligence in any project he has been a part of" Moreover, his easter email while struggling to finish the OST shows how much integrity the guy has towards make the deadlines he's contacted for. Marty is a piece of shit who should replace his defamatory post with an apology and a fat check. The wording of his initial post always felt very much "throw Mick under the bus", and to have that evidence brought to light after a couple years of behind the scenes attempts to rectify the situation makes me hope Bethesda's lawyers pull their collective heads out of their asses and make this situation right.

[@ivegotbadtaste9181]

Somthing off the doom soundtrack came on at a metal night in a club and I got a black eye in the pit. Best stuff they played all night

[@TheZachary330]

Waiting for atrioc to drop the exact same take on the drama

[@charredolive]

give him 2 hours

[@acecarpenter502]

@@charredolive 💀💀💀💀💀

[@TheMajorStranger]

@@charredolive Yeah Quack does his best but Lud's a one take jake so his editor doesn't need to do as much as the Glizzlord.

[@EShum]

He's on vacation, we're safe

[@blankspace0000]

I have to say it's been very heartening seeing everyone talking about being so understanding about all the industry specific details like why you can't just take music from the game and release it and why you can't work without a contract etc. Really nice to see that.

[@casheverett6300]

Marty: heres a reddit post that destroys your career Mick: I have collected receipts and have enough proof that it has enough words to count as a full book that can shatter your company thats the TLDR

[@oCloudy]

As with most drama, i didn't even know about this until you covered it here. Feel so bad for Mick, unreal that he worked for so long without getting paid, that could be life-changing in the wrong way man. They treated him so poorly, seems like he did his best with what he had ❤️

[@Debossmister]

Mick deserves more than the 100,000 for what he has gone through

[@500dollarjapanesetoaster8]

Right, if Mick accepted this, that meant all his future earnings are affected, which is going to be way more than 100K. Jeezus, the hubris of Bethesda is unbelievable.

[@imkaneforever]

It's just a hush fund, how much could it be, michael? Ten dollars?

[@_A.t.g]

Absolutely. And I say defamation cases are one of the most difficult to prove but in this case he has a very high chance he could do it. As long as there isn't some claws in the already signed contract he should definitely take legal action if not for money at least for his justice.

[@Pwrplus5]

It always seemed ridiculous that Mick was being painted as difficult to work with to me after seeing his talks and youtube videos about DOOM and the extensive work he put into the music for both 2016 and Eternal. The vast majority of OST releases are direct albums of all the music used in game as it is presented but DOOM has arguably the best use of dynamic contextual music in any game and the care he puts into mixing all of the different pieces of a track into something that works on an album is so intricate. His GDC talk about the making of 2016 is one of the absolute best presentations they've ever had and anyone who hasn't already seen it should check it out.

[@chuckfinley1501]

The fact that mick is still willing to go back and fix the OST for the fans says enough tbh

[@Jacksynth]

I'm livid. As an upcoming game composer this hurts me so much to see. Mick is one of my idols. I hope justice can come to all who deserve it.

[@JustAMoky]

Ludwig and mogul mail should move in together

[@Vantlash56]

what about ludwin

[@technetium9653]

They live in his head rent free

[@Tit_thief]

yeah, their almost like the same person!

[@myknees6215]

Ludwig died, unfortunately

[@itsmelukario5969]

Kap

[@postmelons2282]

My jaw dropped several times during the sparknotes version of Mick's story. I am severely depressed hearing what this poor man has went through. Ridiculous.

[@IceMaverick13]

Thanks for cliffnoting that document for me. I started reading it and then saw how small the scrollbar was and thought "Oh, this is like... a _read_ I'm signing up for."

[@da_Space_Cowboi]

very concise, easily digestible coverage of this drama even as a longer, more information dense mogul mail. Thanks Ludwig.

[@greatleecher2404]

Man if I were in his situation where I was not getting paid for over a year and then suddenly gets hated online even though I have done nothing wrong, I might have took my life. Sh*t is just depressing man. Props to him for being strong mentally, I cant do that.

[@Bieks1]

I hope it gets better for you, friend.

[@needsaname7849]

Thanks for keeping us up to date with everything that's interesting Lud!

[@millie.esmé]

this isn’t ludwig, it’s mogul, they just look a lot a like! (/j)

[@daybrake2]

@@millie.esmé shuddup

[@LMN22]

As an audio engineer, i know it can be very difficult to get paid, get information and details, etc. And it's expected that established companies would be a bit easier to deal with, and it doesn't exactly work that way. Hope it works out somehow for mic

[@justaplant.]

I love how Mogul Mail is just the philipdefranco of gaming and nerdy shit

[@RhotenXxX]

Being a person who really respects art and also a creator, I find it really offensive when someone takes your art and profits from it and then does what Marty did! Edit: Hope Mick comes up ahead on this!

[@ml8991]

13:20 "as a consumer, you have rights." -saul goodman

[@Hunter_Kennedy1]

As an audio engineer/ music producer, this hurts. Can’t imagine working in that environment.

[@tmaow]

I'm glad my boy pyro for the first time covered a drama before Ludwig and Charlie

[@sectionya]

you know its crazy when mogul mail has an editor and isnt a one take

[@tyler_does_arson]

i love this channel. at the end of the day, this channel seriously feels like the only sane way to learn about internet drama

[@Tany90er]

Someone has to make a drinking game where evertime Ludwig is touching his nose someone has to take a shot.

[@Fhots_Shired]

LUDDY DOING LINES I SWEAR TO GOD. HE'S PLAYING WITH HIS SCHNOS ALL VIDEO

[@gentlechaos5911]

THANK YOU, I was looking for this comment. Him wiping his nose was incredibly distracting, was he doing coke between all the cuts or something lmao

[@Evalend_]

Solid breakdown, my heart goes out to Mick. Can’t wait to see what he does with ROUTINE.

[@Ryzrr]

Man, I love Mick. that original concert he did for Doom is still the highlight of watching game awards for me. Him and Matt Halpern (drummer of Periphery, check them out too) killed that performance

[@danielleuberroth1788]

This was such an incredible explanation, it was very clear and helpful. AND THEN THERE'S CHESS BOXING. You've got a subscriber.

[@Sci-Fi_Freak_YT]

This whole situation reminds me of when I worked at a restaurant about a year ago. We had a promotional event going on where we gave out cards to customers with our names on them. This being used to get our names in reviews for the business. A 5 out of 5 review from them would get the customer a free ice cream. I did it because I enjoyed working their and I was a lovable guy. I netted over 30 5 out of 5 reviews (which would have equaled 300 dollars). Out of the blue the owner disqualified me, claiming I was paying people. I gave my two weeks the next day and after moving to my new job I learned that a mass exodus happened started by me. They temporarily closed for about 3 months looking for people to work for them. I have been at my new job for almost a year and I am treated with respect.

[@jayhawk184]

man I accidentally started a exodus too at my first restaurant job, it had just opened and everything was very hectic people trying to learn proper routine they were really nice people but they kept forgetting to put me on the payroll I asked like once a week an over 3 months go by and I have yet to be payed I had some money saved up so I was fine and didnt wanna let them down so I kept working doing my best till I got super low on my savings I had clocked every hour I worked (I was the only cook) they assured me as long as I kept track of my hours they would pay me, finally I tell them I need payment I cant keep working. I leave them with my time sheet I had been keeping track with dates and hours roughly 370 hours and I finally get a personal paycheck not an employee one for $150 bucks I was so pissed I confronted them and they started lying to my face as if I was an actual idiot saying weve been paying you this whole time we dont owe you anymore the next day I just didnt show up. I get a call from the boss him screeching in my ear yelling YOU FUKED ME YOU FUKED ME. becuase I was the Only cook. I told him why I left he continued to yell YOU FUKED ME and hung up. little did I know almost everyone was getting fucked like that we all damn near quit the same day. still pisses me off thinking about it.

[@fingmoron]

​@@jayhawk184 shoulda sued

[@jayhawk184]

@f should of but young and naive

[@EleeBot]

Ludwig’s storytelling brings me so much joy

[@brettmcanally8265]

Didn’t mogul mail kill that guy?

[@ShakesSama]

its mogul mail, not Ludwig

[@Kidd_Piccolo]

Go watch Ludwig then

[@eddiebrock8639]

This is Mogul Mail, not Ludwig. Stop getting the two of them confused! You are not the first person to make this annoying error!

[@barbos1507]

Even if Zenimax won't give any apologies to Mick, the fact is Mick has already won. He showed everyone that he's a good artist and a competent worker that was wronged by incompetent manager. Really looking towards his work in atomic heart, that should reinstate him as professional in his field.

[@WayAlpha101]

Loved seeing you cover this, absolutely disgusting situation. I hope you can keep updating this story too ^^

[@katharina4491]

Hope it goes well for Mick. Sounds like his story has a lot of truth to it and I can't even imagine how tiring the last three years must have been.

[@yaromier1680]

You know these memes like "When the doom music kicks in", right? I'm just imagining Mick entering Bethesda office with a pump shotgun right now

[@phoenyck]

I think this may be the first Mogul Mail with cuts. Mr One-Take losing his touch. There were some edits in there as well so guess it balances.

[@avaritiabaritia]

moral of the story : always side with the creators and not the organizations

[@WanderTheNomad]

Didn't Hellena Taylor end up being in the wrong though?

[@avaritiabaritia]

@@WanderTheNomad Ye u right. But 15k still too less imo.

[@bluegizmo1983]

It's also not just the Marty decided out of the blue to release and OST, without even consulting Mick, but that the entire OST explicitly had Mick's name attached to it!! It was called something like "Mick Gordon's awesome Doom Eternal Soundtrack" and Mick wasn't even consulted or contracted beforehand, and then Marty went and added 40 extra extreme poorly mastered tracks by someone else to the OST, making Mick look even worse! On top of all that, ID Software (i.e. Marty) went ahead and used basically ALL the game music that Mick created and that was rejected by the Marty, so Mick never got paid for most of the music that's actually used in Doom Eternal.

[@frankiecoss7141]

1:40 Believe it or not, there's a part in one of the ost's (I think it is actually this one) where if you set it to mono audio, it has circus sounding music.

[@EstellarLu]

Mick Gordon is like Gordon Ramsey in the audio world. Chef's kiss

[@CaptainAwesomeGuy]

Glad to you see bringing this topic some light, I first heard about it on the video Charlie, Moistkritikal, made earlier today. It's ridiculous how much abuse a lot of these videogame engineers take, while the companies just rake in the money and refuse to properly compensate their workers... This definitely makes me reconsider ever supporting Bethesda ever again, which saddens me bc I was a big fan of the Wolfenstein, Elder Scrolls, as well as Fallout series...

[@KiyotaiTalks]

for the backlash he received and is still partially receiving i want you all to know that Mick produced and gave samples to Bring Me The Horizon for their first Post Human Survival Horror EP in 2020 and that's one of BMTHs best selling albums after Sempeternal

[@hjonkhjonkamgoose]

The D16 soundtrack was my favorite ever gaming soundtrack. To see Gordan getting a disrespected like this makes me so sad. I watched this perspective from someone else yesterday and it was horrible.

[@matayo1]

Ludwig casually forgetting he put out an entire Christmas album but not that he made a song with porter Robinson