Hunting with Match Bullets--I screwed up.

[@steveroca360]

Owning up to a 'screw-up' shows you being a responsible adult and a professional outdoorsman. You handled the situation properly, then shared it. It shows fellow hunters that the best of us can have a regrettable incident and that there's a right way to handle it, but more importantly, you explained why it happened so others can learn from it and hopefully avoid a not-so-perfect shot. Love your channel. Thank you for all the content.

[@backfire]

Thanks for such a kind comment

[@sertank735]

Well said.

[@StepLucch]

What kind of trigger is it? Sounds like you would be better off with a 2 stage

[@mobilemcsmarty1466]

agreed, it's a great presentation here. takeaway- X and M are both fine for hunting. sure, have the X when hunting then use M for match. I have a feeling the X might be a bit more expensive so that's why you use the M for target practice/competition. as to the "screw-up," the bullet landed where you intended. that's not too bad. some of that is just a fact of shooting in the field. we all can learn from this to minimize all the elements in the time between intent to release and impact 😎

[@jdibben29]

I've used the hornady black 168 hornady loaded w the amax bullets in 308. They do catastrophic damage even at 200 yard on deer here in sw missouri. When I say catastrophic it leaves holes the size of golf balls on exit

[@radagastthefool6661]

It not a matter if it happens or not, it a matter of when it happens. If you hunt game it will happens even to the best and careful hunters. Loved that you told and showed the video. Its very good for all hunters to share and tell so we all can learn.

[@michaels9739]

No, it's really not

[@stevechewning7741]

Kudos for admitting a very honest and hard to avoid mistake.

[@sheethneaffer8614]

When I was growing up I wounded a squirrel that we never got back. Truly I understand what it feels to have that sick feeling. It happens to everyone. I'm really glad you still got it. My slip up still haunts me. Hunters have feelings too and we don't want our animals to suffer. We want to harvest them cleanly and as painless as possible.

[@willieungerer4312]

I’ve hunted everything from springbuck up to zebra with 140 gr eld-m in my 6.5 creedmoor(dozens of blue wildebeest have dropped with one shot kills). I understand and everyone have their favorite bullet and that is why I never try to convince anyoneto use it for hunting. There’s a old South African saying “if you never wounded an animal or screwed up in the hunting field, you haven’t hunted long enough yet”. Good video, keep up the great work

[@claytonbruner1808]

I used an ELD-X bullet in SA this year with great success. 8 one shot kills with no trailing necessary. From Springbuck up to Kudu, Nyala-711yds, and even a massive Blue Wildebeest beyond 300yds. I will say my PH wasn't excited about my bullet choice until the first shot. We had a lot of conversations about bullet choice and I tried to make the argument that bullet choice is an equipment choice that's as important as weapon choice. And when choosing your equipment it's your job to understand the equipment and what it does well and doesn't do well. My PH doesn't like what he calls "exploding bullets". My response to that after my first shot on an animal, which was a nearly 600lb wildebeest was "how do you feel about exploding pills now"?! One thing to keep in mind with this design is that bullet placement is a crucial component of bullet design. If you're using a VLD hunting bullet or a TTSX, for example, you want to hit things that cause bullet expansion like shoulders and bone. Those bullets will pencil on through soft tissue. The ELD style bullets, on the other hand are like grenades in soft tissue. Put one in an animals' diaphragm and the vitals turn in to soup. Now, generally the thing that causes an animal to expire is exsanguination-extreme blood loss. Both wounds will do that but destroying vitals makes for a much quicker death and shorter recovery. Just my 2 cents.

[@willieungerer4312]

@@claytonbruner1808 I’m a South African. I use cull for a living. I used a old Sako L46 chambered in 222 Rem. Now that I can enjoy hunting and not culling, I take my time and still shoot neck and headshots only. If I’m not comfortable taking the shot, then I’ll leave the animal alone or wait for the right opportunity. Shooting with a 6mm GT or 6.5 Creedmoor with ELD-M bullets just make it so much easier. Wish I never had to sell that Sako. It was a real shooter. I agree totally with you about shot placement. W.D.M Bell really sat the bar

[@gabell727]

@@claytonbruner1808 I am curious, if you shot any animals at less than 100 yards, what was the effect, and what cartridge were you using? My impression is that the ELDX will come apart at high velocity.

[@claytonbruner1808]

@@gabell727 So while set up on an Nyala bull at 750yds we had a warthog come in a few hundred yards behind us to a small water hole. When we got in to a position where I could make a shot it ended up being about 90 yards. The bullet was lodged in the hide on the opposite shoulder. I'd say about 60% weight retention. The warthog went straight to the ground at the shot. I was pretty impressed with the performance. 162gr ELD-X from my 28 Nosler.AND I was able to refine that Nyala bull and make a great shot on him at 711yds. No tracking necessary.

[@EaglePass-w5n]

Same results with my 147 eldms handloads. No issues taking game even seems they go down faster with the eldms

[@jasonrad9332]

Not a hunter but I think it’s respectable of you to share in hopes of limiting it happening to others.

[@backfire]

Thank you!

[@rossauce12]

​@backfire it wouldn't let me comment but only reply for some reason. What scope was that on the rifle?

[@tannerragan99]

I shot a 6x6 bull elk last year with my built 300 prc at 626 yards with ELD-M. It performed perfectly and the bull only went 20 yards. When gutting him, his lungs and heart were just shredded. After seeing this, I’m completely confident using match bullets!

[@northamericannon-leadpartn2851]

Those situations can be gutwrenching - grateful for your transparency - the hunting community benefits when we're all willing to have honest conversations about our mistakes. It's also interesting to hear so many people extoll the virtues of hunting with match ammo - All that Kinetic all at once can be nice, but it also comes at the cost of penetration and can make a nightmare out of a less-than-perfect shot.

[@joeritter8331]

A 1.5 second trigger press is still an eternity in a dynamic environment. I was also taught to squeeze so you don't know when the riffle will will go off, to avoid flinching. 2 times I ran into the same situation as you and ended up tracking a wounded deer for hours after "doing everything right" and the deer being a foot away from where I'd started aiming. I reasoned flinch be damned, I need to know exactly when the gun is going off and started training with a shot timer app and started practicing freehand shooting more. You can't shoot well on a slow squeeze when you're not steady. But you can shoot well unsteady if you know when the rifle is going off.

[@ssimossimo576]

True. A light trigger helps a lot.

[@Dcm193]

No training does. Knowing your rifle is important.

[@ssimossimo576]

@@Dcm193 training is important. A light trigger helps. Why these two factors should be mutually exclusive?

[@csipawpaw7921]

I believe your analysis is spot on. Especially when hunting game beyond 300 yards! Slow trigger pulls are for target shooters. Never forget that even fast bullets need time to reach their targets and when a target is or has the potential to move the time it takes for the bullet to get to the target must be added to the time you take to pull the trigger. The longer that total time the greater the odds of a miss or bad hit.

[@jimmybigtime]

My son and I have taken 5 mule deer and 1 whitetail with Hornady ELD-M 108gr in 6mm Creedmoor. Ranged from 70 yards to 435. All 6 deer were dead right there. 5 fell in their tracks and died instantly. 1 took about 10 steps, wobbled and was dead. 6 out of 6. Your mileage might vary.

[@Airohunter]

I use the 225 ELDM in the 300 PRC and they absolutely work on everything ( Deer, Elk, Caribou, Antelope, Bear ) I've shot.

[@MichaelGonthier-s1p]

A long time friend called and was telling me he'd just gotten his moose permit. He asked to be my guest at the range to sight in his new rifle/scope with his new ammo. Great no problem. Experienced we set targets. Benchresting he walked the hits in to a very nice 1" group at 100. I was busy blasting my targets. I went over spotting for him when i saw the ammo he bought. Match HPBT 168 gr.that did really well. Nice rig. Win 70 ultralight with loop scope. Sweet. "308" The hunt wasn't for a couple weeks. I strongly recommended a hunting bullet vs the match ammo. He bought the solid copper barns. Resighted. Grouping and accuracy didn't change. He shot the moose last day last hour with rain on the way. Was dead before it hit the ground. The right bullet for the proper target...happy trails...

[@williamwright9284]

Looks like the bullet was performing flawlessly. Dumping a lot of energy in the vitals, yet still exiting so that you have two holes to let blood out and air in. Would love to see the internal damage (although I doubt KZbin would still monetize it). Great video!

[@horseguy1230]

For years my go to hunting bullet was the .30 168 gn Hornady A max, which I am led to believe is pretty much the same bullet as the ELD-M. Always found it very reliable and it always did a huge amount of damage - pretty much as you expected from the ELD-M. I did have a bad experience the first time I used Berger VLDs and while I doubt it was the fault of the bullet I have never used them again. You have to have confidence in what you shoot, so I totally understand the feeling.

[@biggs8729]

I had a friend come to me and tell me he had a shot on a mule deer with the 147 grain ELDM in 6.5 CM, where the exit wound was the same as the entrance, but the deer died very quickly. He thought the same thing, that the bullet didn't expand at all. Thanks for sharing.

[@BraydonPrice.]

Lost some deer to that Match Ammo. Almost sold my 6.5 creed over it, turned out to just be a poor bullet.

[@kylehorender2824]

It’s a great bullet, just not great for hunting. In my opinion…

[@joshnearhoof4475]

You spelled poor shot wrong

[@jacobivy2854]

All about shot placement.

[@mackmcbride4345]

I did sell my 6.5 over it. Didn’t figure it out until my 308 wouldn’t knock anything down

[@mrs.vasquezz]

🤣

[@nichmaus8705]

I only hunt with copper, my buddy only hunts with eldm. I ruin less meat, he has more DRTs. Copper of course goes all the way through. The eldms usually come apart inside and makes everything goo.

[@tireballastserviceofflorid7771]

Back when I was a young man I was all about not coming home empty handed. Now days I just love being outside. So most if not all my shots are head or neck shots. It I don't feel I can make that kind of shot I just wait and enjoy the view. Really sucks wasting a whole shoulder or two...

[@nuckyduk15]

This comment best sums up Copper vs Cup and core. Both are great for hunting and it honestly depends on what you care about more.... penetration or goo 😂

[@kendole5931]

I split the difference and shoot bonded bullets

[@christiansmith9414]

I like copper so I can eat everything without fear of becoming dumber and dumber with each sausage

[@kiwiboy42]

Sake Blade are great projectiles

[@JCTaylor21]

That's why shooting at animals at 800 yards, where time of flight can be 1.3 seconds is not ethical. Even if you hit exactly where you intended if that animal moves after you've broken the shot, this is what happens. I made this comment on your There's a new Creedmoor cartridge video. Not that you did that here, but this proves my point.

[@InformalDave]

Agree. Too far for this exact reason

[@gusbusb9]

1000% accurate. But all of the wanna be tacticool andy's think they are a sniper and can shoot animals at damn near 1000 yards

[@midwestbd7144]

Agreed. I shoot consistently out to 600 but wouldn’t shoot an animal past 450-500, too many variables out in the field.

[@highcountryprecision4639]

Absolutely wrong, that same thing can happen at any range, more often when your in tight where your making quicker decisions based on less information. This was not about flight time it was about shot timing!!

[@MrBbracken]

This is why I don’t use step triggers. I set the pull to be scary light and I keep my finger off the trigger until I am ready to shoot. Then minute pressure fires. No delay, no nothing. Just don’t hike with a round in the chamber. I exercise the same trigger discipline as I do with my handgun. Never have I had an accidental or irresponsible discharge.

[@scotth8038]

Had a similar situation years ago, recovered a doe from a poorly placed shot after 4 hrs of looking. I got lucky, BUT....As I had just finished a dedicated bench rifle, I became more familiar with match grade triggers and I have now replaced all of my trigger groups with light, match grade triggers (Bix N Andy and CMC mostly) and I have found that after about 5,000+ shots with all of my rifles, including hunting rifles, that my groups are smaller and my squeeze time is nearly 0. Gone are the days of the slow squeeze, slow breath, 'embrace the wobble'. Now; Pick the spot; Finger on the trigger; tension and the shot is gone. I realize that this is not always popular and for beginners there is an education/learning curve, but with as much as you and your young men shoot, to me it is a no brainer. Go lighter

[@M.H357]

Thanks for sharing your experience Jim, it takes lots of courage and humble to share shortcomings. It’s highly appreciated buddy. Looking forward to learning more from you.

[@chrisgualtieri]

I just found your channel. Great info! Thanks for sharing about your bad shot. So many people only tell about their success stories and never talk about their failures. It’s a real testament to your humility. I’m SO glad you were able to find your deer and put it down quickly.

[@glennycarroll]

As a retired manufacturing engineer, I can just say that nothing causes those of us in manufacturing to have to bite our tongue harder than a customer who calls in and is using your product completely disregarding the warnings and cautions we have tried so hard to convey to the customer, and now disaster has struck. Regardless of how well we keep our composure and manage to remain polite, I bet you can imagine what we would like to say. Hornady has worked so hard to develop the the ELD-X bullet. The Interlock is a very important development. I've trusted it for years. The jacket taper is more added insurance. That bullet is going to do its job because of the design and development that went into it. You throw that away when you use a match bullet instead. You dishonor the company that manufactured the bullet and says that they do not recommend match bullets for hunting. Hornady does not, Sierra does not. It would be different if there were not extremely accurate hunting bullets like the ELD-X. Yes, you have shot a few animals with match bullets and they died, but do you have the benefit of seeing what happens over many thousands? I listen to the Hornady podcasts frequently, seldom missing an episode, and watching some over and over. Have you watched Seth describe the thousands upon thousands of rounds fired into ballistic gel he personally fired in testing Critical Duty handgun ammo? What do you think was done for the ELD-X? Do you think you are in a better position to make the call about whether to use match ammo than companies who've listened to results from hunters for decades and tested extensively the products they make? I don't get it. You have a remarkably fine list of videos that you've posted, but you are right, you screwed up, but telling others that yeah, you would hunt with match bullets even after hearing what Hornady said, that was the biggest screwup.

[@scottcrawford3745]

A Bulldozer, a pickup truck, a tractor, and a Porsche show up at the drag strip... If they all have the same (theoretical) horsepower... Which one is being used for the purpose intended ? Or, Flip that, and they show up to a plowing match. Or a tractor-pull. \ It's in the name: Hunting bullet. Yes, you might have to accept that your groups won't impress your F-class friends. But that sick-to-your-guts feeling will remain in your memory far longer if you use a bullet for a purpose different than intended, and it fails you. And, Yes, Hunting bullets do occasionally fail, too, but those occurrences are likely far fewer than the failures of match bullets on game. Which, conversely, is why I don't use hunting bullets at F-class or PRS matches. Purpose-built.

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

There's manufacturing, and then there is marketing. These bullets behave very much the same -both expand easily at lower speeds. Basically eldx is rebadged Amax. They work too. But so does eldm-used for years at longer ranges with. It cause too much damage (that is the only downside). Next time you kill a large animal shoot it a close range and see what happens. I can tell you there is no problem with expansion (even point blank). You can listen to the marketing devision at Hornady, but ill go with results. Nathan Foster has been testing these for years with hundreds of documented kills. Personally I use both, but there is not difference, other than eldm expands better at long ranges.. Thousands of people know this to be true, and others pretend they have had bullets 'blow up', which is bullshit. Show me an animal where the bullet blew up. Like I said, shoot a dead animal at point blank with eldm.. These bullets cause a lot of damage, but that is what kills game effectively and humanely. Hornady know they work (eldm)- of course they will never admit it -they have a hunting line.

[@glennycarroll]

@@theowenssailingdiary5239 Any time that you discount all negative results that are contrary to the assumption you are clinging to, you are going to have skewed results that of course give you the answer you want. It's just not the correct answer you've arrived at. It is irrelevant whether the target bullets you were using at the time would cleanly harvest animals anyway, and that is what you are not grasping. In the business I was in, which was pressure reducing and relief valves, the amount of human suffering and property damage that occurred because customers ignored our clear directions and warnings was and is enormous. The phone would ring, "My daughter's face was scalded when she walked by our water heater and your valve opened up and blew hot water right into her." Now every one of the millions of valves we shipped went out the door with a tag that said "Must be plumbed to a drain!", but people have their own ideas. In 1982 in Oklahoma a teacher and children were sitting in a cafeteria when the wall blew through and ended their lives when someone did something weird with a boiler relief valve. In India something happened that made one of our best customers Union Carbide wonder if they would remain in business. Someone did something really stupid with some of our pressure reducing valves, and hundreds of families never woke up again because a deadly gas was released. The point is the manufacturer gets to decide what their product is designed to do, and you can hold him to task if it doesn't perform that task well. Hornady makes a line of match bullets and a separate line of hunting bullets. Why? Because they have one whole market of shooters whose only concern is that the bullet makes a whole in paper or clangs against a steel target as accurately as possible. That is their only focus, so that is what Hornady focuses on. Over time they may make design enhancements that will make it even more accurate, but they should not worry at all how that change performs on game, because that bullet is not recommended for game. Suppose Hornady finds that changing the Brinell hardness on the lead core improves the accuracy? Should they now have to consider how that will affect its performance on game? No! Ignoring Hornady's recommendations dishonors the company and worse dishonors the game who deserve the most humane ammunition we can develop. I've seen guys complain that their MatchKings weren't performing on game like they used to, and it's one of those "Duh!" moments for me. I would and should feel irresponsible for using a bullet not recommended by the manufacturer for game simply because I had tested it a few hundred times and at that particular time, the qualities of that bullet might perform satisfactorily. It doesn't say it will next month, next year. It doesnt need to, it isn't designed for that.

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

I only trust real world results, and results I've seen on video. I've seen the results from Nathan Foster, who has tested this bullet on hundreds of animals- he autopsies them too. As you can see by all the dozens of gel tests, there is such a minimal difference in penetration that its irrelevant. Show me a fail? Both eldx and m fragment/separate and do all sorts of awesome stuff. Its actually rare to get passthroughs on Sambar deer, but who cares? The whole premise that one needs a bullet to stay together is absolute bunk. Long range hunters nearly all use match type bullets for a reason. Hornady know they are using eldm, but do you really think they'd come out and say it? Their reputation would take a hit from the likes of you, who refuse to get with the program, or look at actual results....some of which you just saw on this video.. See that high shoulder shot? Passthrough. Every single soft bullet kills-period. You have been listening to too much hype. Anybody who thinks these bullets 'blow up' needs to demonstrate that... Its funny isn't it, the number of videos showing Barnes bullet fails is huge, but nobody can point me to a video proving that eldms 'grenade', or don't penetrate. I don't believe in God because the bible told me so.... Also, you need to stop with the 'im an engineer' talk and associated anecdotes.. Hey, Colgate has a new toothbrush coming out! Its designed to improve your teeth by 50%- the design engineers told me so. Better get on it, and don't go cleaning you auto parts with it-just out of respect for them.. @@glennycarroll

[@coltenrhoades3992]

@@theowenssailingdiary5239 These are facts.

[@edwardmarks498]

The answer is NO as advised by every bullet manufacturer. Hunting bullets are designed for "terminal ballistics" with thicker jackets and interlocked or bonded cores. Match bullets are designed for consistency with thin jackets to punch holes in paper. Can a match bullet kill, yes. Shot placement is the primary factor in humane kill shots. Pure ballistic gell tests do not factor in fur, skin, organ and bone denities at varrying angles, all of which can tear apart a bullet after impact, greatly reducing its effectiveness. Once you watch a few animals suffer or follow blood trails for miles without recovering a wounded animal, you will want every advantage you can have for a clean efficent kill. Use match bullets to punch paper and use hunting bullets to kill, that's what each are specifically designed to do through extensive R&D conducted by the bullet manufacturer. Thank you for sharing a very important lesson learned from the field. Keep up the great content. Be safe wherever you choose to shoot my friends👍

[@johnlamica3605]

The bullet wasn’t the issue. The shot was.

[@bww1970]

Just got back from a hunt and had a bad shot. It too, made me absolutely sick to my stomach. It's one of the worst feelings. Unfortunately, it is one of those things that will happen even if all conditions are perfect.

[@zzz7zzz9]

it literally can't happen if all conditions are perfect. perfect shot placement, etc, is crucial to clean harvests. but many take longer shots than they should be. yes, the gun may be capable, that doesn't mean the shooter is. and then add in the weather factors. and biggest, the farther the shot, the more time for the animal to move.

[@josiahfryman7015]

Everyone wants to revert to the distance. Respectfully, It’s not all about distance. People take shots when they aren’t set up properly at any distance. I’d rather have a further shot when I’m set up in the prone with a bag than popping off any shot where the reticle is still moving etc etc. I also think it’s a bit of a joke what some people consider getting dialed in. If you want some cringe go to the game range right before the season opens and see what some people consider sighting in

[@chrisboyd1408]

Glad you recovered with the second shot. Great family memories, thanks for sharing!

[@MrTacklebury]

ELD-X has a bigger plastic tip also, which guarantees it will expand more consistently. The match version is for protection and as streamlined a profile as possible.

[@NorthernMNbeard]

Number one reason. Geneva. Can’t shoot humans with hunting bullets. But you can match grade/ competition bullets. It’s marketing

[@SaltyDomeRat]

Thanks for showing us your incident. Just getting into hunting and seeing that has given me a lot to think about. When you have a problem and then fix it and talk about it, you help others avoid it. Great work.

[@jasonshults368]

Hornady used to recommend their match bullets for hunting thin-skinned game, in appropriate calibers and bullet weights. If you find a Hornady #5, you'll see. I actually prefer using match or target bullets for most hunting, particularly for deer, 22 cal mostly, but up to 30 cal, given the open country I hunt. Match bullets are just as consistent as hunting bullets on game, in my experience.

[@jameswatson4110]

I’ve taken deer and hogs with both ELDX and eldm. I prefer the match bullet (147gr out of 6.5 PRC. The match bullet expands better at distance in my experience but still it all boils down to BULLET PLACEMENT.

[@denisodom6108]

I used to use Sierra Matchking bullets for coyotes because they don’t expand and pencil through. No pelt damage when I sold the hide. Just made a tiny hole in and out. Those bullets don’t expand at all on game.

[@kuriencary]

HP are different than ballistic tips when it comes to match ammo and expansion. Ballistic tips expand significantly better that hollow points concerning match ammo.

[@jozefhorvat3625]

​@@jameswatson4110👍👍👍

[@jozefhorvat3625]

True Jason 👍👍👍

[@jeanbertrand1364]

It's nice to see someone with your experience to admit you made a bad decision, own up to it, and learn from it. Great content.

[@wvideoyahoodk]

Respect for showing this. A very good lesson to learn.

[@Aussielife.]

Years ago when I began shooting rabbits and foxes I had a .222 Remington. For years I shot 52gr sierra boat tail hollow points over 20gr of powder, accurate as driving tacs, and always explosive results, in my area most everyone shooting 223 or 222 used this projectile. One day I loaded a new batch with new serial number batch and next time I went shooting my groups were off. Re zero no problem. Maybe my crimps were off etc. Nope. Next time hunting and it was clear the batch was different because 1/3 went through without expanding at all and acted like a FMJ. I recovered a projective from a fox and the tip folded in instead. Never used match ammo to hunt since then. Pulled apart the rounds and loaded with vmax. Valuable lesson for myself. Mistakes happen and sometimes all the information aligns but the results do nit.

[@Skyzdalimit68]

I remember as a kid I went duck hunting with my dad and his best friend. When it came time to lay down some ducks, my dad's friend took a shot on a duck and injured it sending it into the water. He searched for hours for that duck knowing he injured it and didn't kill it. When he got back to the blind he was in tears because he injured a defenseless animal. I will never forget that moment, it is etched in my memory and I hold a great respect for animals and will probably be as sick as he was if I ever injure and not kill an animal. I love the process of hunting to provide for my family and it will never be lost on me what God has done for us by providing His animals for our survival. We should all have this same sentiment and as much as this situation sucks, it's nice to see it play out in your favor. Much respect to you for your feelings and your diligence brother.

[@dannyhawman2865]

Thanks for sharing this Jim. Good stuff. Glad you found your deer! Can't hunt regularly without something like this happening. Awesome seeing how you are learning from it and willing to share.

[@WHOTEEWHO]

been waiting for this video!

[@jakesmith2693]

After hunting with a 6.5 Grendel bolt action with reloaded ELD-M bullets. The bullets are going 2650 fps at the muzzle. I only used them because others were saying they are deadly on big game. After trying it on a doe antelope it didn’t perform at all! I had the bullets exploding on impact. I hit her four times (two on both sides of her ribs) in the kill zone. The bullets didn’t hold together at all like others told me they would. I felt so bad after this and will never use these bullets on big game! On a side note. My Daugter had the same tag and I had some Barnes bullets loaded for the same gun. Her doe went down in seconds. Great performance on a doe at 310 yards. Thanks for the content! Keep it up!

[@rodneyhanbaum697]

Exactly why your channel is one of the best! HONESTY AND INTEGRITY!

[@vincentwood7036]

I think the difference in construction also allows the match bullets to be simpler and smaller. The .30 cal 178 ELD-M and 178 ELD-X have different lengths. About 1.3 and 1.4 respectively. The ELD-M being shorter allows for a touch more powder as well as being more likely to stabilize in a slower twist rate.

[@yc2560]

Not trying to be judgemental, but how can you say the distance doesn't matter? You shot at 360 yards, so if the bullet travels at 2900 fps, it takes about 0.4 seconds to reach the deer. So even if the deer started moving before you shot, you basically doubled your mistake by taking such a long shot.

[@unclebob540i3]

I learned my lesson on coyotes, I will NEVER hunt with match bullets. A lot of people make that mistake and think ballistic gel is equivalent to animal flesh, it is not. I'm glad you managed to drop the animals quickly with good shot placement and managed to find your wounded animal.. Thanks for this video.

[@blaserlongrange7616]

The jacket of the match bullet is so thin that it over expands and slims itself around the back half of the bullet so the expanded diameter is around 10mm for a 6,5cal bullet that's why it looks like it's not expanding in the animal, the devastation inside the animal is a different story, i have shot 20+ animals with the eld-match and it works great at long distance, almost perfect, i will never use it for short distance shot

[@gsitzkowitz]

Hornady also told me to never hunt with their match ammo. Why would you question those who made the bullet in the first place? DON’T HUNT WITH MATCH AMMO!!!!!!!!

[@backfire]

Because I studied the results in ballistics gel and have heard people who work at Hornady who say they use it.

[@gsitzkowitz]

Not the people that I spoke to at Hornady.@@backfire

[@TierNoneOperator]

I hunt almost exclusively with match bullets. But I take shot placement and more importantly IMPACT VELOCITY extremely seriously. Any bullet used outside of its operational window will not function properly. I have found from personal experience that match bullets have a slightly larger window of effective operation than the equivalent hunting bullet.

[@EdAb]

Fabulous video and lesson. Thank you for being honest and humble enough to share your experience!

[@backfire]

Glad it was helpful!

[@michaelangelo6217]

Appreciate your informative experience. I can concur on certain match bullets being ineffective or rather unreliable in performance. However, I have had very good luck with a certain 75gr match bullet from deer size animals on down. With that said, its always a responsible decision to use bullets designed for the application at hand.

[@ChronicalsofAl]

Gel is not a game animal! However, I don't consider the eldx a "tough" hunting bullet. So I think you'll be ok on pretty much everything short of elk

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

They work on elk!

[@ChronicalsofAl]

@@theowenssailingdiary5239 probably sticking with the Partition bullet for elk but I believe you.

[@claytonbruner1808]

They work on wildebeest, and Kudu, and Nyala. Just don't put them in a shoulder. Put them in the diaphragm where that grenade effect liquifies everything vital. I shot a mule deer once with one and destroyed both front shoulders. Ruined a lot of good meat. @@ChronicalsofAl

[@99thunderwolf]

Lost all confidence in eldx two years ago when it penciled through a mulie at 300 yards outta my 6.5 prc now it’s nothing but Berger hybrids and eldm’s and has worked great

[@pastorjosh44]

This also happened to me on a whitetail at 80 yds. I ended up getting a 2nd shot in the neck which dropped it.

[@wadesafool]

Well that backfired………. I’ll see myself out…

[@dustinwalter3034]

Anyone who says they have never screwed up when shooting and animal---is probably not telling the Truth!!!! Great Video----I really appreciate your Honesty ---When Pulling the trigger---in that second--anything can happen with the targeted animal!

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

If you hunt long enough, one will eventually get away after you hit it. You just do everything you can to keep it from happening, and when it does, learn from the experience. Fortunately you were able to find the deer and finish it.

[@zzz7zzz9]

i don't buy into that reasoning. that's like bow hunters basically thinking losing game is just part of being an archer.

[@djmcdonald5508]

I have taken a few whitetail with 6mm cm and 6.5 cm eldm, its my go to now. Absolutely catastrophic damage and 99% are D.R.T.

[@nmhvactech5474]

I mostly use Hornady bullets hunting and shooting. There’re accurate, fairly inexpensive, and easier to find on the shelves. I’ve killed many animals with Hornady Bullets, but I believe most of their bullets have cup and core separation issues, even with their interlock crip ring. Personally I think Nosler bullets are better for hunting, as the lead is bonded to the jacket better. The issue with Nosler is, ammo harder to find, it’s been very difficult to get reloading bullets, and most importantly they have become way over priced!! I think shooting Match Ammo Bullets, like Hornady Match ELD-M’s, for hunting is okay. After all look at Berger bullets, there’re pretty much the same as ELD-M’s.

[@jeffsweeden3696]

I have ELD-X rounds loaded and shot a deer a few years back. 140 yard shot, muzzle velocity was 2650 fps, 178g ELD-X over 42gr Varget in a Savage Edge .308 rifle Pin holed the deer twice. She stood there and acted like she didnt hardly feel it. My son made a simultanious shot on another doe that was to the left of mine, with a Savage Axis .223 loaded with 65gr sierra game kings, over 24.3gr IMR 4064 with a muzzle velocity of 2895fps, all handloads. His doe flipped 3 times and ended up about 8 feet behind where she was, with a baseball sized entrance and exit hole. Heart and lungs were liquified His didnt move. Mine was shot twice and just walked off. Found her probably 75 yards away. Hardly no damage at all to the heart and lungs, and she was shot on opposite sides, both went between the heart and lungs, should have decimated it all, but didnt. Just a .308 hole all the way through. Hit a rib, didnt even break it. I'll never use the ELD-X for deer much less the Match. GREAT coyote round and shoots 2.25' groups at 500 yards and is my best handload, but I'll never deer hunt with it. My 150gr and 165gr Sierra Game King handloads are so much better bullet wise

[@jeb9931]

Understand your situation and have nothing but respect for your content and ethics. Squeezed the trigger for a neck shot on a cull buck (match ammo) just as he lowered his head. Still dropped in its tracks, watched him for a minute, verified the exit channel, all is good right? Five minutes later he got up and ran off. That was a first! Tracked him down discovering the shot hit high, just missing the spine and the exact same thing you showed, bullet didn't expand . Thanks for all the great content.

[@TheMrMused]

Firing sequence; Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. 3 sec is good on the range, heck maybe even fast. Not in the field though, when that animal has already been standing still for a bit and the squeeze doesn't start until after you've got a distance and squared up in the optic. Glad you got a followup and dropped her with a high shoulder. Doesn't make all the bad feeling go away, but does allow for a good closure.

[@lupeooo]

That is Hunting! Only who doesent hunt, doesent make mistakes. Thanks for sharing. Glad that u found it the same day! Cheers from Germany!

[@corbinsmith4778]

I’ve seen too many videos of ELDX bullets consistently have jacket separation to trust them. I’ll stick to accubonds, bondstrikes or sciroccos

[@Nick-sx6jm]

Yeah cup and core bullets are fine if the impact velocity is low, but if your not making really long shots or not shooting a slow cartridge then bonded is the way to go. Literally no downside except cost and availability. Shot a buck with my 28 nosler at 350 yards using a eldx a few years ago because there wasnt anything else in stock, even components were impossible to find. It dropped but jesus the bullet exploded and I could fit my fist through the exit.

[@precisionhomesdesign]

Great Video Jim! I have a friend who is a serious hunter, and hunting guide. He has harvested dozens of deer and elk with ELD-M, and prefers them over the ELD-X for hunting. Just another perspective.

[@davidallen3139]

Been there done that, it makes you sick to your stomach and leaves you with a thousand what if questions. Truth is it doesn’t matter how much we strive to be perfect - we aren’t but we should still keep striving.

[@MMountain82]

My uncle used to say “it’s Hunting not grocery shopping “ meaning no matter how well we prepare we cant control everything , we make mistakes,we learn and we get better. Clay shooting or bird hunting helps with your trigger squeeze, learn not to jerk the trigger but also be deliberate in your pull hope that helps

[@ChrisJones-fm6wp]

The benefit of having higher end rifles with nicer triggers is that you can squeeze the trigger quickly, using proper technique, without jerking. It's kind of counterproductive to have trigger that doesn't move much and isn't heavy, but to take 3 or 1.5 whole seconds where you're imparting movement on the rifle. Perhaps you could look into a LR class with Long Range Shooters of Utah. Make a mini-series of videos breaking down the class and what you learned. You get a chance to learn new things, have some great content for the channel, and they get some free advertising to a demographic of shooters that probably hasn't heard of them that a lot of people in that group could benefit from what they offer.

[@ronws2007]

There are two types of hunters. Those who have had a failed shot and those who will have a failed shot.

[@jackcoultas7869]

Today was the beginning of youth season in Missouri. My daughter shot a small basket 8pt with her moms on 30-30 Marlin. Shooting 170gr Remington Cor locts. Deer was less than 200yds away. It ran another 200yds (maybe) and fell over dead. The entrance and exit hole looked the same size. Lungs and heart were blown apart. My son, shot a small doe (really a fawn lol) at 100yds with 140gr eld-m out of a 6.5creed. There was no exit hole (mind you this was a tiny deer) but the heart and lungs were absolutely mush. 🤷‍♂️ seemed effective to me. It didn’t even take a step. Both an old classic and a modern match got it done with no issues.

[@kevinboock7143]

I have even more respect for sharing the “screw up”, even if the result ended on a good note. I believe that if you hunt long enough, everyone will have a similar situation.

[@sethboyce9832]

Thanks for sharing that. Had a similar thing happen at full draw on a buck. As I was squeezing the trigger the buck decided to shake his coat off. And it was just at the wrong time where part of my brain tried to stop the shot but it was too late for another part of my brain or something and bow goes off and hit kinda in front of the shoulder / base of the neck and high. Never found that deer and was sick about it. It’s something most people aren’t thinking of in the moment but it’s good for everyone to realize it so u hopefully don’t get caught in the gray area. Just be prepared in case to shut the whole thing down instantly and start over

[@tlloyd9325]

If you shot the Barnes X, Triple X, or the LRX you wouldn’t have to worry about weight retention or expansion. The downside is I’ve NEVER recovered one. I do handload so I can tune my load to my rifle. They are indeed pricey but yet the cheapest and most important part of the hunt.

[@bsa526]

The absolute fortunate thing is, you got the deer. I appreciate the respect you have for the animal. Kudos to you man, you just gained all my respect. This is the reason I keep my shots within a reasonable distance (usually under 300 yards)and also the reason I use a rifle that is way over kill. If I make a marginal hit, usually the shock anchors the animal

[@jacobivy2854]

Match bullets are very popular in European style hunting where everything is neck and high shoulder shots. They don’t perform as well with American style hunting where you intend to punch through shoulders and/or vital organs.

[@lovetoflylovetofly3843]

So glad you spotted her again, what a relief that must have been, like you said. Great work.

[@farmerchad62]

I can confirm eld M bullets dump a lot of energy into a target. I shot a coyote last summer that absolutely dropped like a sack of rocks with a 6.5 grendel, Hornady Black factory 123 grain. It was made before the eld x bullets came out, and I found it online somewhere for $14 /box, so that tells you about how old it is. Early eld m bullets. But I also had a very bad experience using the same ammo on deer. I hit a doe that took off and couldn't locate after a couple hours of looking. Found it the next day, and the exit wound was identical to the one you showed. Probably would have been fine, except I hit way too far back and low. I like to think that the bullet bounced off of a small branch and went off course. It has turned me off of using that bullet, and even that gun on deer again, even though in theory it should kill a deer very effectively.

[@SpeedDemon_Editzzz]

Its okay everyone makes em. We just have to learn from them🗿🔥💯

[@drewriggs812]

I had a similar experience bow hunting. The buck turned from a slight quartering to a severe quartering as I pulled through the release. Fortunately, I severed the femoral artery, so it bled out in 100ish yards, but it makes you sick to your stomach when your projectile hits somewhere else on game.

[@daymondgrimes5521]

Shot a 176 pound 7 point north Florida white tail buck with a military 173 grain 7.62LR hollow point match bullet 115 yard shot behind the foreleg heart/lung shot. The bullet exploded and the deer ran 30 yards and down dead. I don't recommend using anything other than hunting ammo to hunt with but yknow shot placement is 98% of a successful kill.

[@RecreationalSniper]

Owning up to a mistake is one of the things that commands respect. With that being said, in my opinion, your mistake is not that your firing process takes 3 seconds. If that is what it takes for you to execute a perfect shot then that is what you should do. The problem I see is one that is most ignored by long range hunters and that is the factor of TOF. Time of Flight. Depending on cartridge and velocity and ballistic coefficient, a 500 yard shot can take from .4 to .7 seconds from the time the trigger breaks and the time the bullet reaches the target. And that time alone is more than enough for the target to move and there is nothing you can do about it. And this problem is exacerbated the farther the range is. For instance at 800 yards now we are looking at 1 to 1.5 seconds. What I am saying is once the projectile is in motion to the target it will not stop and it doesn't mater if the target is there or not.

[@funnyanimals3915]

You hunt long enough and it will happen. I lost one last year, made me sick, searched for hours in the swamp bog until I was exhausted, never found him. I shot him with a 6.5-284 ELD-X 143gr but it was a snap shop right as I got in the stand this monster walks out, I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. Thanks for sharing.

[@SouthTexasLivin]

I have been having the exact same results using ELD-X as well. I used to use the old “superformance” series but it would leave massive exits and huge damage to meat. What I have found is that I kinda prefer the old huge damage leaving blood trails over the new which does not leave any blood trail at all. I kinda want to pivot to accubonds 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@scottcrawford3745]

Make sure you find NEW stock and not "on-sale older stock" Accubonds... the earliest versions of these had a bit too much antimony in their cores, to make them hard, but it also made them a bit too frangible and they developed a reputation for losing a lot of their frontal mass despite being "bonded". I've shot the new stuff and it performs as well as you could hope for a guilded-core bullet. The B.C. is outstanding for making longer shots, or getting your MPB flatter and further out. For Ultimate reliability however, I still tend to favour the Nosler E-Tip, or Barnes Tipped -X or ELD-X monolithic bullets. I coat mine in HBN to get that slippery, near-zero fouling, and slightly higher velocity without the higher pressures that monolithic bullets are known for.

[@jond4014]

Had the same issue on a small buck with the old A-max bullets. penciled through. Deer walked off. I caught up to it and put 2 more rounds in it with the last being a "coup de grace."At point blank in the neck, never used match bullets again except for Berger match VLD which perform great on game.

[@mikekopmanis2099]

Kudos to you for being honest about what happened with your shot. You've learned something and come away smarter. Lots of match shooting behaviors carry over to hunting but it's not 100% the same. Overall great shooting!

[@edstettin6799]

Jim, you need to go to Barbour Creek long range hunting class. It goes over all this stuff. It would be awesome if you went and did a video on it. I went to level one last spring and it was amazing. I enjoy your videos.

[@garrettschienschang7898]

I’ve only tested it on whitetail so far but I’m extremely happy with the results of a siera match king 175grain otm in my 300wmg. So far all have been complete pass through with tremendous internal damage.

[@1970zona]

Thanks for sharing your “suboptimal” shot… and your response to it… good food for thought.

[@Flyboy9305]

It happens to the best of us now and again. There’s a reason there is such a thing as a finishing shot. It’s not pretty, but way better to find the animal and end it than have it get away hurt. Good job on the diligence trying to find it. That’s what an example hunter does.

[@6.5shooter9]

What I understand from watching this is that the bullets work great and that gut shots are bad. That would be the same no matter what caliber or bullet the hunter uses.

[@attwasmi]

Really strikes. I call anyone that it hasn’t happened to! You owned it. Life is what happens in a breath. Big men admit it! Hats off!

[@jonmartinez1562]

I’ve been doing so much research on this topic! Thank you for this video! Love your channel

[@MrLucky426]

Don't worry about a pass through! In the past 30yrs I've used 139gn SST and 140grn BST in my 7mag. Every animal has dropped in its tracks with no pass through. I prefer the energy to be dispersed within the animal. With that being said, I haven't been able to harvest a deer heart in 30+ years. Only downside, everything else is a plus👌 Great video and I'm glad you were able to recover your game👌

[@zzz7zzz9]

exit holes aren't necessary with guns. needing to follow blood trails is an archery thing. pass throughs are for archery.

[@keegandentici6105]

Thanks for sharing Jim. I made a bad shot bow hunting this past season and it was a terrible feeling. However, when rifle hunting I frequently use the eldm. When using this projectile I typically always go high shoulder and it so far has always put the animal down right in place. So far with the eldm I have killed 3 whitetail using 120 grain eldm in 6.5 Grendel 2 with 6.5 creedmoor, and one cow elk in 6.5 prc.

[@robinbarrett6671]

I used Hornady Match ammo on a moose hunt. 308 168? One shot to the heart at 320 open bog. He went about twenty paces and laid down. Worked fine for me. I did switch to Hornady game king- That works too.

[@elijahbrown8787]

I love when I hear the lawyer side come out... "I laid our foundation." Great video.

[@MiketheMeister]

1) Use a bullet that will leave a GOOD blood trail. 2) Take your shot immediately AFTER animal has stopped, not after its been still for a little while, and definitely not when it goes from look to the side to looking forward. That's when they're going to take that step.

[@vettepilot427]

We've allowed precision to dominate our thinking and it should not to the extent that we forget the purpose. A couple of observations. 1.) Hornady may test the ammo to the same accuracy standards but the SD (standard deviation) of match ammo is usually about half of the hunting ammo (in a good barrel). Hunting ammo usually has a higher velocity than match ammo because the hunting bullet requires a certain level of energy to perform correctly. WE NEED BULLET PERFORMANCE MORE THAN WE NEED PRECISION. In a hunting application, if you're within the range of sufficient energy delivery, chances are your vital zone area will still be at least 2 MOA. 2.) Ballistics gelatin is just that, ballistics gelatin. It is ONLY intended as a stable and consistent medium to test expansion against other bullets in same. It is NOT an approximation of tissue, hide, bone, and other anatomy present in an animal nor is it an accurate prediction of bullet performance on live game. 3.) In my opinion, this is something that should have never been tested on live game for a KZbin video. Federal, Hornady, et al have very smart people who have said that match ammo should not be used for game (although some do at their own risk) and that's good enough for me. You have industry contacts that would have also advised against it.

[@gregorygreen7912]

3 Things Jim: 1) I love your sight. 2) You were very lucky to see that animal the second time. 3) Just a few days short of my 60th birthday- I ACTUALLY MISSED A WHITETAIL DEER- so it CAN HAPPEN. Up until then, I had NEVER missed a big game animal, much less injure one and not recover it. I say this next thing partly joking but it's still true. I DON'T MISS. UNTIL THAT DAY I DID. 😂😂😂

[@dansherwood9851]

Had something similar on a good Buck in Colorado and never found just a blood trail that peered out after a 1/2 mile. I was sick! Looked for 6 hours. Ugh. I have a browning x bolt heavy 26” barreled 6.5cm that shoots those 147 gr M bullets very well. Just bought another x bolt in 6.5cm with a 22” barrel (mountain pro) and I’m going to use the 143x bullet as it is certainly a more walk around gun being over 1 lb lighter. If it shoots as well as the heavy barrel, even the first 3-4 rounds I’ll be very happy. The 26” barrel is good to 10 rounds or so before poi starts to move but it will shoot 10” groups at 1200 yards on a calm day.

[@dl8621]

I exclusively hunt ELD Match with my .308 and 6.5 CM in Florida. Reason being, brush is thick and even if the animal only goes 40 yards before dropping that's a lot of distance in the thick stuff and easy to lose your kill if there's no blood trail. After shooting a hog with 6.5 Hornady Supercharged hunting ammo (heart/lungs destroyed) the bullet dumped all energy into the boar and didn't exit. The entrance wound was occluded by lung tissue and therefore no blood trail. The hog only ran about 40 yards, but through thick brush and palmettos. I found him by luck, and only because I tripped over him. With match ammo I get an exit wound and blood trail. With .308 ELD match, the exit wound is massive inside of 200 yards, making it impossible not to find your animal. Hope this helps.

[@dpwhitaker7088]

When I was young I was told that if you hunt long enough you will make a mistake and I have made several. The distance plays a big part in what happened and you had no idea that deer would take a step.. I have never timed a trigger squeeze but think you are right in reducing that time.. Good for you in recovering that animal.

[@jedpalfreyman9807]

Honestly thats perfect for whitetail sized game, a bullet that punches a small hole in the entrance side, blows up on the inside and the tail end continues to punch through and not tearing up to much meat in the mean time

[@charltonlwalker]

Great video. I spend a lot of time practicing in off season including dry firing. I have a light spring installed on my Tikka and trigger pull is 1.5 lbs. I settled cross hairs, wait for deer to pause, let out a little breath, and squeeze.