#10MinuteTalk

[@hdub6527]

Series or single show with Ryan going through most common types of hunting bullets and giving his take on each would be much appreciated / interesting! Could listen to Ryan talk about cartridges / bullets just about all day long.

[@chipsterb4946]

“My favorite bullet [brand/product line/weight] for caliber X is…” Assume whitetail deer at 400 yards and in. 6.5 Creedmoor 6.5 PRC 270 Winchester 6.8 Western 7mm-08 7mm PRC 308 Win 30-06 300 PRC Does that cover the important bases? I’d be most interested in hearing Ryan’s casual but so well considered WHY for his choices. That young man does not make uninformed decisions.

[@jaredstewmelt]

Yes please!

[@scottearnst8152]

Agree 1000% , really enjoy Ryan’s take on hunting bullets and reloading!

[@Fctsdntcarebouturfeelings]

He's a little soft and uses words like cute ect. Other than that he has some knowledge that is useful. Definitely couldn't listen "all day".

[@hdub6527]

@@Fctsdntcarebouturfeelings yeah, you are right. All day probably a little strong, would probably find my limit around 7hrs!! Whatever words like “cute” you’ve heard him say that you aren’t a fan of… I challenge you to find me another phrase on KZbin anywhere that tops “…and that [insert any wild game] folded like a $5 tent..” , one doesn’t exist!!!

[@mikecrafar6276]

Another great discussion. I’m in New Zealand and find myself using ELD-M bullets for pretty much all my hunting these days. They have been unbelievably good in 6.5mm. The main thing you MUST be aware of is if your impact velocity is above 2700fps there is a chance of the projectile blowing up on the surface and not penetrating sufficiently at all, but under that velocity I have had 100% excellent results. I’m using mostly short barrels with suppressors and the slower muzzle velocity of 2670fps with the 140gr ELD-M is perfect. Expansion is great down to 1800fps and even a bit lower. Here in NZ, neck shots on deer are the preferred option if you & your rifle are up to the job - maximum meat for the freezer is the goal. Fairly easy shot out to 200+ yards for most folks I hunt with. I guess your reasons for projectile choice are very valid though when you only get a few chances per year. Luckily for us, we can go shoot a deer every weekend if we wanted to and with regular feral goat shooting/culling you do get very confident once you have shot 100’s of game animals a year. I now order the 140gr ELD-M by the 1000!

[@jakeevans7617]

I’m one of those in the states that goes for the neck. I don’t like tracking after the shot so it’s a good way to make sure I don’t have to

[@zakventer5117]

looking at the 168gr eldm . Have you got much experience with those? Was of my concerns that you mentioned here was taking a closer shot and with the high velocity of the bullet and it blowing up.

[@rossmara8377]

Agree. ELDM 168g in my 308 are devastating on big Sambar here in Oz

[@Jonathan_Hagen]

I love the 140 ELDMs. I have taken a couple mature bull elk with them now and they performed great.

[@ryanwilson6036]

I'll never forget skinning a cow elk that my old man shot with a Barnes bullet. The bullet had come to rest perfectly in between the meat and hide on the opposite side of the entry wound. It had mushroomed exactly as intended, and when weighed, retained all of it's weight. It was pretty impressive to see how effective of a design it was honestly.

[@mountainman9973]

I hunt elk exclusively with a muzzleloader and I use a Barnes saboted fifty-caliber TMZ I have killed over five elk using the barnes ranging from 30 yards to 200 yards and I can honestly say my bullet went completely through the elk and hung up on the hide on the other side every time I think the reason why it doesn't exit is because the mushroom is so substantial it can't poke through the hide on the other side. Once it comes through the animal the hide on the other side has so much elasticity it stretches and the bullet won't tear through because it has mushroomed and is almost flat. And yes most of my bullets I got back where 100% weight retention. I remember one time I had got a bullet back that was missing a couple of pedals because of bone.

[@ryanwilson6036]

@@mountainman9973 That's pretty impressive! This particular shot was a touch over 400 yards with a .300 RUM, and the effect was exactly as you described. Too much surface area to penetrate the opposite side after that massive energy transfer. I'd have to call that pretty ideal.

[@CircleBrewery]

My state says that u can use expanding bullets to hunt. Do match grade bullets expand? I’ve never used them.

[@Kross8761]

@@CircleBrewery yes, most match bullets expand (tipped match bullets like Sierra TMK and Hornady ELD-M expand really well) The biggest concern (with any bullet but especially with tipped match bullets) is if you get jacket-core separation which is obviously not good. A good general rule of thumb is as long as your impact velocity (impact not muzzle velocity) is below 2400fps a tipped match bullet will perform quite well and they have been shown to expand reliably at velocities as low as 1300fps. Overall they're completely unnecessary if you're hunting at any kind of moderate (or what many will call "ethical" ranges) but they perform wonderfully at longer ranges than most "standard" hunting bullets. The only difference between a Hornady ELD-X and an ELD-M is that the ELD-M has a thinner jacket and will expand "well" at lower velocities than the ELD-X. You push a tipped match bullet too fast and you WILL get jacket-core separation on impact, but at lower velocities they often perform better just because the jacket is thinner and it takes less resistance to cause the bullet to deform.

[@powerbagle]

​@@Kross8761 hornady has a podcast on this also. Without going back and watching it, match bullets don't expand reliably at lower velocities.

[@Kross8761]

My (personal) answer to Ryan's question of "do you wait for that 'ideal' shot opportunity? And if you don't get it, do you pass on the shot?" Is yes. I will wait for the perfect opportunity and I will (and have) passed multiple times when I didn't get it. I prefer match bullet for the type of hunting and the animal's that I pursue (typically longer"ish" ranges with a precedence on absolutely perfect placement, and by longer"ish" I mean the farthest I've ever shot is a shade under 800yds and my shortest is easily 350) My general rule of thumb (for my cartridge selection I own, this is VERY dependent on cartridge) is that Barnes LRX will get me out to about 500-ish yards with acceptable expansion, Hornady ELD-X will get me out to about 750-ish, and ELD-M will get me out to 1000 and still have the velocity required to initiate significant expansion, but ELD-M will typically "fail" if I use it under 200yds. So for my hunting distances that I personally encounter the Hornady ELD-M will reliably expand (and be able to stay together and penetrate adequately) across my entire distance or velocity range, AND it shoots extraordinarily well in my rifle and I can get sub ½MOA groups easily if I'm doing my part so I have the highest chance of putting my bullet EXACTLY where I want it. I don't recommend match bullets for every Hunter and every scenario, but if you're intelligent and you are aware of your bullet's capabilities and potential weaknesses then there's absolutely nothing wrong with them if used properly.

[@BDJans]

I’ve been part of extensive testing using .308 ELDM on barriers such as the reinforced pillars of vehicles. It penetrates through (literally) every time. I have zero doubt that ELDM would consistently penetrate a deer or antelopes shoulder. And that’s why I’ve used it for hunting for a number of years now with great success on both deer and antelope from ranges of 50 to 470yds. It’s also marketed to the military and police for use on people if that tells anyone anything.

[@BDJans]

I will add that the caveat to the ELDM always penetrating was that I did consistently see core/jacket separation. One hole in, two going out. It’s again the argument of what an individual wants to see. I typically see animals dying extremely quickly when being shot with ELDM. The exit holes are nearly always tiny, likely from just a piece of core or jacket leaving the animals body. Which means that the energy from the round is being almost completely expended inside that animal. I’m not sure how match ammo would perform on larger game like moose or elk, I’d have to do a lot more texting before I’d feel comfortable using it on larger game than deer or antelope.

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

Close range shoulder shots on big Sambar deer is lights out -they penetrate. People who say they don't are kidding themselves. Any bullet will go through shoulder on any deer Inc. moose. (from a reasonable cartridge obviously). The problem comes from people aiming for the 'vitals' and expecting instant kills. Then, when they find that they don't always leave a nice blood trail, they decide on needing a passthrough (or they repeat what they've heard others say) The whole 'boiler room' stuff seems pretty stupid in the age of Good scopes and accurate bullets. Just take a High shoulder shot-its a pretty forgiving shot too. (too far forward you are necking it-too low its still lung or maybe heart, and too far back its lung/spine... Just don't go too high😀👍@@BDJans

[@longgone9869]

Hornady will tell you that the front petals peeled off and the base continued on. I’ve seen it many times.

[@kevinmartin2096]

Hands-down, match ammunition

[@dawielubbe9443]

I like your open mindedness about people taking headshots. We in South Africa are shoot mainly headshots and because we shoot a lot of animals most of us are very confident in taking these shots. Also a reason I use match or ballistic types bullets is because we don't want the bullet to pass through and wound an animal on the other side

[@thegoodguy729]

Definitely would like you to bring on one of those guys who run match-grade only. Would be a great discussion!

[@damianwhatever9092]

Maybe the guy from long range hunting group chanel.

[@marcmoore4115]

@@damianwhatever9092 I agree, he is very knowledgeable, but he can be a little... pressing? Idk, sometimes he just seems a little too invested in Match bullets lol - and I use match bullets too.

[@Kross8761]

@@marcmoore4115 he doesn't believe that they're the best in every category and at every range, he's just tired of the misinformation from fudds who say that *ONLY* "hunting" bullets can work for hunting. He IS particularly invested in his position because he's a long range Hunter and the right match bullets will outperform everything else at long range. I've even asked him about certain "match" bullets and his first question was "for what?" A match bullet will perform at most distances, but they only OUTperform most other bullets at long range specifically. At ranges under 400yds (with most carteidges) a TTSX or CX is going to outperform almost everything else available, but due to their monolithic construction they need drive band's to not cause excessive pressure and those bands drive the BC down. Those bullets' legendary toughness is also their greatest weakness at longer range performance because the bullet is harder and tougher and it requires more velocity to cause expansion. I'm a firm believer in the effectiveness of match bullets (when used correctly) for hunting, but my favorite bullet is the Barnes TTSX/LRX for anything under 400yds because I have almost zero meat contamination and it makes cleaning the animal so much simple to not have to hunt for small shards of copper and lead, but if I'm going on a hunt that has a likelihood of over 40-50% of me taking a longer shot I'll deal with the extra cleaning hassle for better bullet performance. LRHG *can* come across as gruff or "pressing" (excellent choice of word there) mostly because he spends a ton of time refuting claims that match bullets are garbage when the claim is only based on "well it's not a 'hunting' bullet so it won't work" when he has mountains of proof showing that they work extremely well. It's irritation at people's constant stupidity and refusal to listen to actual data and going with their belief.

[@mfallen6894]

@@Kross8761 Well when you get dunked on all day for promoting hunting at stupid ranges you're probably going to be a dick. I think HE and other highly-skilled shooters can get away with it. Promoting it to the average hunter is retarded as the average hunter is NOT a good enough shot, even with modern optics/range-finders, etc. I find plenty of game every season that was shot by someone that THINKS they're good enough, but most aren't

[@marcmoore4115]

@@Kross8761 Very well said. I was using the 168gr ELD-M in my .308 at 2752fps. Performed great for me and the furthest I shot with them while hunting was a Warthog at 308m. Closest was a Gemsbok at about 50m, ran 20m and was dead by the time I could get there. Didn't have time to load, so I'm now using Hornady Superformance 165gr SST's. Very impressed so far.

[@tdp7244]

Very interesting discussion guys and you nailed some good points. Specifically hunting in US vs (for example) Africa. As a South African I grew up with head & neck shots because curse you if you waste any more meat than necessary! ;) Dyker That said, with age I hope I've grown wiser and there's no way I'll hunt the same today. Today I hunt in the bush with a 200gr ELD-X in 30-06 simply because I have all the options open to me without any compromise. The ELD-X is basically match grade so I can put it in the ear of an impala at 300m if the opportunity rises or hit a Blue Wildebeest quartering to at 100m full on the shoulder and still go all the through. Simply put (IMHO): Accuracy is absolutely the most important and caliber or bullet weight will never outweigh shot placement. But having the piece of mind that the projectile can break through heavy bone, stay intact, and still do the job on a sub optimal shot is worth a lot.

[@tdp7244]

KZbin cut me off there...At "Dyker".To complete I added : ...I've hunted everything from dyker to massive Kudu bulls with a 243 because all I needed to do was break vertebrae/skull and precise accuracy was more important than grunt....

[@pen_sword_life]

+1 on the ELD-X and its' precision capabilities. I used it on a hunt in South Africa earlier this year and the 178 gr 308 factory load was right on the button each time. Similarly in Denmark i have had very precise results out to 600m during range days. My rifle is a Savage MSR-10 with an 18" barrel.

[@matthewlyness8161]

​@@tdp7244 Soo match grade ammo will work

[@Spruce-Bug]

Nathan Foster of NZ has done extensive work regarding this sort of thing. You guys should invite him for an interview.

[@MSHunts]

I’ve landed on bonded bullets for my .30-06. Terminal ascent and I am also fond of the Remington Scirocco bonded bullets. Very tempted to try these beloved copper solids though.

[@adamshaw8214]

Dont

[@thomashumphries8531]

Great discussion. Im one of those kiwi lads who uses ELDM/A-Tip/TMK/EOL not exclusively but mostly. I think there are many different reasons for either way and do agree on some counts. Here in NZ we dont have tags, so we think of passing up a shot as completely acceptable outcome. Maybe we are not under as much "pressure" to make the shot. One thing I've never understood is the need to have a hole on both sides. I like to have an entry hole and then massive internal damage. Interesting topic, enjoyed it thoroughly.

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

I agree, they are petrified they won't have a blood trail, so they want a passthrough, which leads to a tracking job (sometimes/or most), which, in turn, requires a blood trail.

[@ericsmith5919]

I can answer why someone would want a pass through, because that's what I want. I agree with bowhunters that the basic method of killing an animal is to make a hole and let the blood out. Two holes = blood goes out faster. I don't believe there's a magic bullet that can guarantee explosive deconstruction inside the chest cavity (maybe the bullet hits a shoulder blade before it gets there, maybe it hits a rib, maybe it hits both, maybe it hits nothing.) I *do* believe there's a bullet and velocity combination that can guarantee expansion and pass-through on a given size animal, no matter what it does or doesn't hit on the way through. Is it a simplistic way to set priorities? Maybe. But I've heard too many stories about bullets grenading on the outside of a shoulder blade to take that chance.

[@lordravenblade]

Depends on if the match ammo is considered 'expanding' or not. Some states require expanding ammo in the same way some require straight-walled cartridges or minimum caliber/energy for certain game.

[@Rohan4711]

You said it really well. Exactly this point is something they should have brought up in the video. Most match bullets are not sold as expanding bullets. In my country the hunting regulation requires that we use expanding bullets on game (with some exceptions). If I tested particular match bullets in my gun to verify that they do expand it might be ok, but it would be a legal grey zone that I rather stay away from.

[@reloadnorth7722]

I used a 168gr A-Max for moose hunting in my .308 Win. At 228 yards, the bullet went in through a rib, shredded both lungs, then through another rib when leaving. It also left a hole nearly 2 inches in diameter. The near 800lb moose only stumbled 14 yards then dropped.

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

Last year I decided to test this for myself instead of listening to the internet echo chamber of “match bullet bad” and accepting that as fact. Used 135gr A tips and 123gr ELDM last year in my creedmoor and they hands down outperformed every “hunting” bullet Ive ever used, from 20 yards out to 320 yards on the 7 deer I took. I took every shot placement to really put them to the test- lungs, high shoulder, “vital V” neck, head, quartering to and away, and 2” in front of the leg. Every single one was a one shot drop, save the rear lung shot, that ran 40 yards and then tumbled arse over head. I’m a convert.

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

Edit: 123gr ELDM are what I have loaded now, I used factory hornady match with the 147gr eldm last season. Video of the terminal damage can be found on my channel, though YT restricted it to 18+

[@YoureSoVane]

​@@veteranironoutdoors8320Any reason to pick the ELDM over the A tip?

[@shitsngiggles8371]

I shoot those 135 a tips out of my 6.5 prc at 3450 fps and they freaking destroy whatever is In its path. 5 bucks and a bobcat so far.

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

@@YoureSoVane price. A tips are double the cost of an eldm. But offer better BC’s and they delay expansion slightly so they would be better for quartering shots or larger bodied game. I would have had 0 qualms putting that 135gr A tip into an elk’s lungs/heart.

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

@@shitsngiggles8371 i have a 20” barrel on my creedmoor so I was “only” pushing it 2780. Still worked amazingly.

[@Swampytheroot]

I've used 6.5 Grendel for varmints for over 10 years. In following the online forums, many of the other users swear by Hornady Black ELD-M 123gr for boar and coyote, even deer. I use the ELD-M strictly as a target load, but there's no denying how effectively many use it on critters. On the other hand, one of the most intensely effective projectiles in my varmint experience is the 106gr TMK. Defender Ammunition specifically markets their loading as a "do everything" for the Grendel. My other load is a 123SST loaded by Druid Hill Armory. That's what I consider a 'proper' deer/pig/coyote load. Many of the ELD-M only camp swear the SST doesn't work. I've never had an SST fail to work when I put it in the correct spot. It's interesting how the camps of thought seem to feed on themselves.

[@biggs8729]

As a LE officer in the mountains in Colorado, I encounter a lot of injured deer and elk from being struck by cars. I carry a 308 precision rifle and our ammunition of choice is Hornady tap, 168 ELDM. Before we switched to Hornady, we had 168 Federal gold medal match. I have lost count of how many animals I have shot with match ammunition, but it always seems to do the job. Interesting fact, burger hunting bullets, have thinner jackets than their match bullets. I think their hunting bullets are nothing more than match bullets that say hunting on the box and people love them.

[@mikeford963]

Their hunting bullets are either chemically bonded, or have an internal ring that holds the core in place.

[@jeffreywilson690]

No Berger are cuo& core​@@mikeford963

[@headcarter4656]

My experience is if you like corelokt the eld-m is pretty much that with better bc.I just shot an 8 point buck at 45 yards behind the shoulder, broke 1 rib on entrance and 2 ribs on exit. My point is will the match bullet blow up on bone and not penetrate , well this one did. Oh and by the way I was shooting the 6arc 108gr eld-m.

[@Titan-iw7xv]

I’m with you guys. I love the results I have gotten from years of using the Barnes bullets. Never fails

[@diggernash1]

The TTSX are simply fantastic. I've started loading them all the way down to my ultralight Grendel and they shoot tiny little groups and put whitetails down quick.

[@nikos6220]

I am torn on the Barnes. I think they carry a higher risk for an uninformed hunter to f.. up. Barrels are getting shorter due to suppressors getting more common. Combine that with a cartridge using slower heavier projectiles and your reliable expansion max shooting distance gets uncomfortably short. A really good worst case example would be a 9.3x62 Mauser out of a 20‘

[@diggernash1]

@@nikos6220 Agreed. I don't understand the fascination with heavy bullets for whitetail and mule deer sized game. Any well-constructed bullet over 90 grains is plenty. I start the 115s at around 2550 out of the bolt gun(I don't consider it a safe AR load). That keeps me above 1900 fps to 300, though I limit shots with this rifle to 250. I'm back east, so most of our shots are under 100 yards, unless we are sitting in a stand with long sight distance. I will be taking my 7 PRC to those, previously I used my .308 with an Accubond load. I have no personal experience with elk sized or larger game, nor Western spot, stalk, shoot a long ways in the wind style hunting. :)

[@E1337Jerk]

Any time if hit with barnes the critter was recovered. Folks know your own limitations hunt smart and ethically.

[@E1337Jerk]

​@@diggernash1 I have killed black tail at 200 yards with a 55gr barnes from a 223 very dead moved 25 30 yards. Had full pass trough on a broad side shot. I'm of the school that bullet constion is the most important factor not that it can't be done the other way its just mot how I was brought up.

[@chipsterb4946]

This was one of the most interesting talks yet. Good work guys!

[@VortexNation]

Heck yeah - appreciate you tuning in!

[@Blair338RUM]

Here in Australia, match bullets with tips are the preferred choice for culling feral animals or kangaroos ( on license) as the animals are too thin to set up expansion on bullets such as ELD-X.

[@rossmara8377]

They’re great on large Sambar too. ELDM 168g out of my 308 👌

[@philliproush4019]

It would be amazing to see a ballistics gel test at 500 yards with both a hunter and match grade bullet

[@NorthRiverGuide]

There are many different constructed match bullets just like many differently built bullets labeled with the word "hunting". Testing one side by side with one, doesnt really say much besides how that one particular bullet compared against that other particular bullet

[@orr89rocz]

Barbour creek has done some testing like that

[@Paul-q3m7k]

The match bullet does what it always does and blows to pieces

[@NorthRiverGuide]

@@Paul-q3m7k i would disagree. Like any expanding bullet there is an velocity window where they work. Push them too fast and they shed weight rapidly, get them at the right speed and they just expand, go too slow and they fail to expand. No different in that sense than any other expanding bullet, labelled for hunting or not.

[@taylorengler7764]

ultimate reloaders shows that the eldm do ok in ballistic gel reguardless what these 2 "experts" say. is it better than a hunting bullet no but it will work. sometimes you have to use what you can find is what these guys dont understand. also they hated on the 270 only to find its better than the 3006 (shows how much they know)

[@jfess1911]

Some monolithic bullets are designed to open at much lower velocities than others, so it is important to choose the right bullet for the cartridge and situation to be encountered. Some Cavity Back copper bullets are designed for intermediate cartridges like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 300 Blackout and can open as low as 1400 fps. That dramatically increases the effective range of those cartridges. To give an example, with the 6.8 SPC a Cavity Back 105 or 120 grain bullet has an effective hunting range of about 400 yards. The Hornady 100 CX bullet, on the other hand, needs about 2000fps to open. According to Hornady's range/velocity carts, expansion occurs only at distances under 200 yards.

[@Blong243]

From Sprite/7 up to conditioner, a very interesting look at bullet selection. I load barnes personally, but am not opposed to match ammo. I think shot placement is more important than bullet selection. Very situational though, and a learning discussion it is.

[@Kross8761]

Absolutely, there are strengths and weaknesses to both types of bullets, as long as they are used intelligently and within their capabilities they're both extremely effective.

[@nikos6220]

Ryan, have you really seen the 127 grain LRX significantly expand up to 600 yards out of a 6.5 Creedmoor? I am asking as I have seen many tests that indicate you shouldn’t get below 2.200 ft/s with this bullet. That would be 350 yards rather than the 600 you mentioned. Even with a 6.5 PRC that would be 420 yards, so not much more. Thx

[@sn1per194]

Classic Barnes X Bullet expansion on game. The diameter and depth of the hollow determines how far back the petals peel and at what impact velocities. The minimum for expansion is generally about 1,800 fps.Jul 16, 2021 From Ron Spomer Giving it 1800 fps at 680 (rough throw at Applied Ballistics for where I shoot)

[@KillenNReelinoutdoors]

I was also under the same impression would like to know more

[@nikos6220]

@@sn1per194 Ron seems to be a nice guy, but I would caution to use him as a golden source. Too much of what he says is off the mark in my opinion. At 1.800 you might get some expansion but nowhere near what a good bonded bullet like the Accubond will have. There are some really good other channels that are testing bullet performance at different ranges and provide the impact speed. take a look at the very limited expansion you get even above 2k. Plus the guys use water which is basically a prefect medium for expansion.

[@Off-target-xy6bx]

Long range hunting group - you might want to look them up. They have some good video’s on here.

[@jfox71]

I have never used match ammo for hunting but have used the ELDX which is a pretty thin jacketed cup and core bullet. It worked great until it didn't. I shot a pronghorn at close range and it totally grenaded on the front shoulder and never made it into the vitals. Bonded only for me from now on. I use federal terminal ascent bullets now.

[@dougkahler7152]

This is the exact point of using bonded or all cooper for hunting they always work at all ethical hunting ranges no matter what they encounter on the way in to the vitals !

[@orr89rocz]

@@dougkahler7152or dont shoot them on the shoulder. Avoid bone where possible things tend to work out better

[@scruffyarms]

I use what works best in the firearm I'm using. It always makes me chuckle when the $24 budget ammo outshoots the $55 box. That isn't always the case but I like that you guys pointed that out. Personally shot placement is king. Really interesting about kneck and head shots.

[@TMar129]

While I agree you should always use the ammo your gun likes best, I have to mention that you should always match your ammo type to your game. Bonded bullets or mono will always hold together better and will always outperform frag style or soft point when used on heavy game with high speed ammo.

[@midwestbd7144]

9/10 it’s probably just your rifle liking that particular bullet more. My .300 WM loves cheap 150g federal soft point but doesn’t shoot the best with 175g Hornady precision hunter. My 6.5 prc drives tacks with hornady 147g match

[@brycehiigel235]

Another great 10min talk. Opens up for different thoughts and to either add or not to the knowledge on works or doesn’t work for a person. Right now my wife uses the Barnes LRX 127gr for her 6.5rpm. Her firearm really likes it. She made a very nice shot at 111yds on her first deer last season. I bought a 6.5 prc. Tried the Norma blue tip shoots it ok. But the Barnes 127gr LRX lights outs. As for my .270 it likes the terminal ascent the best. Also was preached by my grandfather “get as close to the animal as possible, make the cleanest shot possible to put the animal out of their misery as quick as possible.

[@joshperdue4157]

Explore this topic further. A few weeks back I did a search on this subject as well and was surprised to see lots of people swearing by the effectiveness of match ammo.

[@mikedanaher3413]

Great subject. Very interesting and definitely worth a deeper look. I think we all should thank the bullet manufacturers for making some pretty awesome hunting projectiles. There were days long ago when you shot the, deer, elk, moose or bear with what you had in the weapon at the time.

[@bryantitus6634]

Not all match bullets are created equal. There are certain bullets marketed by ammo companies on their LEO side of their websites, like the a-max and eld-m, that are listed with expansion velocities. There are a couple match bullets that are similar from other manufacturers. There are also match bullets that are not necessarily designed as such and are designed quite literaly to cut holes in paper and expansion is an afterthought. The eld-m is designed shockingly similar to hornadys own SST bullet which is in fact designed for hunting. Ballistics gel tests, depending on caliber and projectile weight of course, show very similar terminal performance. Seemingly the only difference in the 6.5 grendel loading in particular is the canilure on the SST. At shorter ranges, so long as the match bullet trends in the heavy for caliber range, I feel it can be used similarly to generic cup and core projectiles in the same weight classes. A caveat with this pertains to higher velocity cartridges within a bullet diameter tend to need more durable projectiles to be as reliable as possible. Calibers such as 308, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creed/swede/260, and some of the lesser AR-15 chamberings, or simply the fact that most ARs, 15s or 10s, tend to have shorter barrels than their bolt action counterparts, go hand in hand with lower muzzle velocities and therefore lower initial impact velocities will lend to more reliable bullet performance with 'softer' projectiles when it comes to reliable penetration as they take advantage the lower expansion threshold. Whereas in faster for diameter cartidges this would be detrimental primarily at closer ranges. The monolithic bullets that you mention in comparison work in a completely opposite direction as you clearly stated. Many monolithic projectiles have a low end velocity threshold of approximately 2,000 fps. Personally i like to stay at least 100-200 fps ABOVE manufacture stated velocity thresholds as a buffer for reliabilty. With his story of his 650 yard mule deer kill as an example, hornady lists the a-max on their old LEO page (unless it is the eld-m and im misremembering) as having a expansion threshold of ±1600 fps. Using hornadys ballistics calculator and a 168gr A-MAX at an initial muzzle velocity of 2700 fps, which is likely high unless he was in fact using a 24" barrel, retained velocity at 650 yards was only just barely over 1600 fps. It is very likely that bullet expansion, and therefore rapid energy transfer, was on the ragged edge of being present at all. In this instance, the match bullet with its low expansion threshold may have been the only reason that mule deer was successfully harvested at all as most projectiles, even those with similar expansion velocities, would not have been still carrying even that velocity at that range. Ryan is, of course, right on the money with his range limit on the 6.5 creed Vor-tx LR. Barnes listed the vor-yx loading as reliable down to ±1800. Personally id stop that projectile at about 500 where it dips just below 2000, but thats still exceptionally long range for hunting scenarios and with a non-magnum short action chambering it is still immensely impressive.

[@pbbananas]

Certain match bullets (the big ones being the amax/eldm, tmk, and sometimes the vld) are very effective and boringly reliable on game when you understand how and when to employ them. They are the exact same concept as old school prebonded bullets like the winchester silvertips used in 30-30s, 300 savage, and 303s for decades, but made in a more aerodynamic shape which extends the range. The good ones are just thin jacketed hollow points. Nothing more nothing less. Just like older style bullets, push them too fast, (ie close range shots with a magnum) they’ll probably fail. Any soft hunting bullet will, not just match grade. This is why bonded bullets made there debut shortly after the magnum craze, as a solution to pushing soft bullets faster and getting bullet blow up. Match bullets work by an opposing concept, they extend your range via BC and not powder, thus reducing impact velocities, and reducing the need of a stout bullet and high velocities to initiate expansion to begin with. When they impact at mild velocity they deform/fragment gradually. The slower the impact, the less they deform/fragment, and the deeper they penetrate. Need to shoot a bigger animal? Slow them down. Its counter intuitive for people but once you understand how the function, you can keep them within their best use velocities windows, just like any other bullet. The heavier the bullet, the more mass it has there is to shed, the deeper it will penetrate vs a lighter projectile. Hence why heavy for caliber match bullets are optimal. They’re just a soft bullet option which is necessary for mild impact velocities if you want any sort of mechanical damage. People always equate this to only applicable to long range, but it’s also applicable to mild cartridge/rifle combinations just like it was utilized in the exampled 30-30 I mentioned above. A modern combination would be for short barreled rifles (16-20”) in mild cartridges like 7-08, 6.5, 308; match bullets are a saving grace which keep these rifles lethal without limiting range and terminal effect with tough bullets whose efficacy would be at the bleeding edge from just the initial muzzle velocities produced. If you have any need for a reduced barrel length (suppressors) these bullet options are a relevant option to consider. When your rifle/cartridge combo doesn’t even start with 2400-2600fps initial velocity, bullet blowup from muzzle to the max effective range of 1800-1600fps (depending on bullet) isn’t a concern. Keep impacts below 2400, and it’s going to kill what you hit. Emphatically at that. Impacts slightly above that, aim for something soft, like a neck so the bullet encounters less resistance and expands more gradually. Hitting at the bleeding edge of 1600-1800? Aim for a shoulder to increase resistance and aid in bullet expansion. It’s just understanding how the bullet design behaves in tissue. Not all match bullets are created equal. Research which have proven results and do not make assumptions. Realistically all you’d ever need are amax/ELDMs and TMKs and you could ignore the rest. Websites like BallisticStudies, and numerous law enforcement and hunting forums have thousands of pages of data with recorded impact velocities, game weights, and pictures. Long Rang Hunting Group on KZbin has many videos on the subject. There’s lots of data out there if you have the time and inclination to learn. If you don’t, stick to traditional hunting bullets in traditional barrel lengths, at traditional ranges, at high impact velocities and don’t worry about it. But if you fall into the category of “needing” a low velocity solution, you have options…

[@peterconnan5631]

I was somewhat lucky, and managed to develop two loads that shot to the same point of impact at 100m in my .308. The one was a 155gr Sierra Palma match bullet, the other a 150gr Rhino Solid Shank. I would take both into the field and use the one most appropriate to the shot that presented itself. With the match bullets I preferred to take high neck shots. Done right, it's spectacularly effective, and it's a relatively safe shot because in the species I used it on (Springbok and Impala), it's pretty much either dead or miss. However, I am weary of relying on a match bullet to achieve deep penetration at high impact velocities especially against tough and large animals. That's what the Rhino Solid Shanks excell at. And they put animals down with chest shots like no other bullet I have ever tried.

[@lylewalters909]

I've seena few balistic gel test between the ELD-X & ELD-M and other bullets that are similar like SMK & the SGKj. I think that most people are going to be surprised at the results of expansion of the match bullets. Right or wrong the numbers don't lie. I hope you do the gel n water jug test with both ans show the results to us.

[@cypherthepro]

Hey Ryan and Mark. I'm professional deer stalker in the Highlands and shoot hundreds of red and roe deer a year. Happy to talk about what we do and the bullets we use. Would be a great chat.

[@edseward1299]

In my experience. high BC, match bullets don’t have an advantage until 500 m or beyond and I simply just don’t shoot game animals at that distance.

[@briansteele1378]

Most modern hunting bullets these days have match-grade accuracy and BC. I agree that it boils down to what the user's intentions are.

[@JaredKattner]

10 minute talk at 31:36 lol. Love u guys!

[@marcossegura1312]

I see and hear a lot of people talking about match bullets possibly exploding and not penetrating at high velocity. I would say it could happen but it my experience it never has happened. With my 6mm gt 108 Berger match and Eldms shooting around 3000 fps from the muzzle. I have shot deer and coyotes at 50 yards 100 yards and never had one explode. Pass throughs every time. The terminal results were devastating everytime. Has anyone had experience where the match bullet actually fragmented on impact and never made it into vitals?

[@Velocity4000fps]

I have had nothing but good luck with berger VLD's at 100 yrds and out to 600 on everything from coyote to deer.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

You're trying too hard not to offend. Stop walking on egg shells. Here is my controversial take... Bonded, Monolithic and Partitions are perfect bullets out to 500 or so yards. To get a ELD-X or any match bullet to expand properly you have to be taking a pretty far shot at an animal. The distance to get those match bullets to expand correctly are in my opinion too far of a shot. What I would call an unethical shot. Of course... long range hunting is all the craze right now, so this comment will not be popular.

[@marcmoore4115]

Hmm, I agree with the first part. Bonded, Monos and Partition style bullets are effective to 400m, 500m potentially even further, depending on the BC and velocity, etc. I wouldn't say X distance or more is unethical, personally I'd say the distance where the bullet no longer effectively kills OR where the shooter is no longer capable of accurately shooting the vitals of that animal is the Maximum range of where it goes from ethical to unethical. For instance, I probably could hit a shot at 500m, but personally I don't think I'm ready further than 300m as of my current skill. So for me an unethical shot would be 300m+ until I'm capable of consistently hitting shots out to even further than 500m. To your point about the Match bullets. I've taken multiple Gemsbok within 100m, as close as around 50m with 168gr ELD-M going 2750fps in my .308. Furthest I've taken anything was a Warthog at 308m with the ELD-M. On the Warthog it was a clean passthrough and it ran about 50m. The Gemsbok ran less than 50m, usually about 20 paces and are dead by the time you walk the 100-150m to get there... that's been my experience. Most warthogs within 150m have dropped in their tracks. I've had great results with the ELD-M, around 10 Gemsbok taken, BUT - if I was invited to go hunt somewhere, I'd go out of my way to find proper premium bullets like the AccuBond, TTSX, etc. Why? Guarantee. While I've had great results with the ELD-Ms, I've also always had the time to wait for the perfect opportunity or to not shoot at all. If I was bound to just a couple of days of hunting, I'd want something where I know that any angle, I can take that shot without issue.

[@ronlowney4700]

🤔 Either their are alot of "Copy Cat" Videos, or their is a "Coordinated Effort" to move "Public Opinion" in a specific direction on this issue? I say the latter! Now, who would "profit" the most by trying to sell this ridiculous idea? That would be a company that is making the Most "New Cartridges", with a Limited Amount of Available Factory Hunting Ammunition Offerings for them! Now who is pumping out the "Most New Cartridges" and making alot of this "Match Grade Ammunition"? Exactly! Is it cheaper to make a "Target Bullet", rather than a Good "Bonded Bullet"? Yep! So, does that Company have a "Vested Financial Interest" in doing so? Yep! Now, Who does that sound like to you? Perhaps your "Favorite Company" (Sarcasm) that makes alot of copper bullets??? You see, many companies are now willing to Lie to us (just for short term profit), and even sell out their country by pushing products of a known U.S. adversary (like "Chinese Products") too! Does that sound like Anyone Else we know here? Exactly! These are Evil Times Austin and it never hurts to bring a "Health Dose" of skepticism to the table! If you want to know the Truth, just follow the money trail! So, Who Sponsored and Wrote the Bill to Outlaw Lead Ammunition (Hummm...)? But, following the money trail is sometimes easier said than done, but some things are obvious to those with a brain! 👨‍🏫 Especially on this topic! 😡

[@ronlowney4700]

🤔 Oh, I forgot to mention another Bill before Congress Right Now, that "Prohibits Hunting" in Certain ("Listed") States! Yes, you heard me right! ☹ You may want to check and see if your State is on the list and if you've been "sold out" by your local politicians or some of these "Corporations" doing business in your state? 😡 Traitors! 🤬

[@Kross8761]

​@@marcmoore4115your statement is 100% on the money. I have the extremely good fortune to be able to hunt on my own property for whitetails, bobcats, coyotes, and other various critters. Since I can hunt them very accessibly and often I am also afforded the luxury of waiting for my "perfect shot". However, if I were to draw an elk tag out west, I'd take either a Hornady CX or a Barnes LRX and I'd accept no substitute. I might get that "perfect" shot and an ELD-M would have been totally fine, but I might also only get a decently hard quartering shot and it be the only opportunity that presents itself. If that's the case I want to prepare for the worst case scenario instead of hoping for perfect. It's also worth making the argument of "bringing enough gun" My 7PRC that I have can keep a 160gr CX bullet within the correct velocity band for expansion out to 600yds pretty handily, 700 would be pushing it. I regularly shoot that 7PRC out to 1000+ yds (again extremely fortunate to own property where I can hunt and shoot) but I DON'T shoot with the 160gr CX very often (I only own 2 boxes because it's not my ammo of choice for that rifle) So at that point the rifle and bullet combination is completely capable beyond the range where I am comfortable in that scenario.

[@kevinsmith9726]

270 WSM 145g ELDX doing 3200 +- at 150 yards on bull elk . Did not take two steps be fore down and dead. The bullet can work on closer shots.

[@nowherespecial6780]

A lot of the bigger caliber match also come with a ballistic tip . So does that depend on accuracy or energy? Dissipation on contact.

[@Jonathan_Hagen]

Always interesting to hear the different mindsets for modern rifle hunting. One of the questions you have to ask yourself, with the penetration argument and getting two holes, is.... are you wanting the animal to bleed with two holes? or are you wanting to cause trauma to vital organs/nervous system? what is the importance of two holes with a bullet? in archery (less trauma and energy) I see the purpose of a blood trail and two holes, but not when it comes to a rifle.

[@thomasgordon935]

Hunt in the uk and solely eldm in both my 243 and 65prc. Both rifles are for hunting and range use. And well under sub moa at 1000 yards. Initially it was more for convenience of one load per rifle, but they just dont let me down on deer. Love the podcast btw. Brilliant listening too and from work everyday!

[@gildasguerin]

sub MOA at 1000 yards: well, you should compete in F-class because this place you in the top 10 easy.

[@thomasgordon935]

@@gildasguerin far more to fclass then a submoa rifle! I may be "capable" of shooting a "small group, but reading the wind consistently at that range is something i have yet to master!

[@gildasguerin]

@@thomasgordon935 : the national champions of F-class may shoot 1/4 MAO at 100 yards but they shoot around 1 MAO at 1000 yards. Not 1/4 MAO (because of wind, velocity dispersion etc). The 10 on the target is 10 inch. So if you shoot "well sub-MOA at 1000 yards" you are easily in the top 3.

[@thomasgordon935]

@@gildasguerin i think your misunderstanding my comment. The ammo and rifle is capable of shooting well sub moa if conditions allow it. And it has done it multiple times. My abilities to read wind etc mean that my groups arent always "well under sub moa". Me shooting a 5 shot group in good conditions is by no means comparable to an fclass shooter completing a 20 shot string for record with time constraints

[@jeffreywilson690]

I like both solid copper expanding and something like the eldm Copper for the plan b shot , eldm for the long range. The guys at Hornady can't be honest, corporate policy

[@sethmatherne7012]

As we say in the military, situation dictates. I think the bullet expansion on which particular part of the animal you will target is the most important. With all the angle variations possible hunting out west or mountains, yalls preference makes perfect sense. I could also see a significant argument for match ammo especially in the southeast when private property borders affects your ability to retrieve game and you typically only have 2 angles. Especially for those who do box stand hunting, I can see match ammo on a head, neck, or high shoulder being super preferential in close and out to longer distances on food plots.

[@bobmoore4790]

Have 2 of them and deer performance has been stellar

[@chital_shikari3163]

My dad’s “money shot” has been the neck-shoulder junction since 2003. Within normal hunting ranges, that shot equals DRT medium sized game with any standard deer cartridge. I’ve only had that shot fail me once, using a varmint cartridge with the shot coming back into the high shoulder instead of the neck.

[@mountaineerdefense2507]

I’ve never seen a deer walk off a Core Lokt. People get way too ate up with projectiles and penetration and “power”. Good shot placement with reasonable distances is all that matters.

[@adventureswithcorona]

can you guys please do a comparison between the 7prc vs the 300wsm iv been hunting with a 308 for the past 5 years and iv been thinking of getting something a little more sexy the wife is being very generous in letting me purchase another rifle. so i was hopeing mark and ryan can help me decide between the two. please 🙏🏼

[@derekclark7477]

Going through ammo selection process on my Veil Wideland 308. It loves the Barnes TTSX 130 grain. Thank you for continuously picking topics that are front and center for me. I have used Federal GMM (MI Whitetail) that were accurate but did not expand or leave blood trail. Only reason I found the deer is because I watched where it laid down. No hair, no blood. No more match ammo for me.

[@lycheeznuts]

Not all match ammo is the same. Eldm ELDX and tmk are all proven bullets that put down big game

[@jeffreyschell9211]

Shooting the 165 gr Sierra game kings out of my 30-06 for the passed 3 years. Caused some significant meat damage and about a fist sized exit wound at 75-110 yards max where I hunt in WV. Decided to try the Sierra match king 168gr tipped last year. I claimed 1 buck and 1 doe. Both shots were within 100 yards and the exit wound was not much larger than the entry wound causing next to no meat loss. The buck took 3 maybe 5 steps before “folding like a 5$ tent” and the doe dropped in her tracks. For my distances here I might continue to use matchkings since my weatherby likes them so much and the results did not disappoint

[@andreasschiller5875]

I'm one of those european guys and it's true: we hunt pretty much whole year round and sometimes a shot through both ears is simply the most practical, espacially on wildboar. I know guys who shoot about 100 deer and hog (which are one of our most valued game species) a year, I myself usually get about 10 to 15 a year. Shooting distance is generally much lower and game much smaller but we want our bullet to pass through no matter what, so monolithic or bonded bullets are most popular. Some even prefer special bullets where the front halve acts like a varmint bullet and the back halve acts like an fmj to ensure pass through. My pick for a be all end all bullet for our style of hunting is the 168 grs ttsx out of a .308 win.

[@stefanandermann7864]

What bullet/ammo would you recommend for a 16 in barreled 6.5 cm for hunting deer 300 yds and in? I'm getting 2400 fps with factory eldx...

[@jujimbo]

In Sweden where I live it's illegal to hunt with match ammunition. I use nosler partition in 308w, federal fusion 30-06, norma oryx 6,5x55, and hornady sst 338wm. So bonded and fast expansion bullers. Depends what and where I Hunt.

[@skret827]

I shoot a 6.5 creedmoor, 140 grain EldM bullets for whitetail deer. I made shots from 30 yards all the way out to 700 yards. All good double lung shots. All shots were complete pass-through shots. I haven't hit the shoulder yet with them, so I'm not sure what that would do. I would like to add for the 700 yard shot I took, I have practiced at the distance a lot and felt very confident in my ability at that range with that bullet and gun. I personally have had great success with the 140 EldM bullets out of my 6.5 creedmoor and plan to continue using it.

[@JG54206]

I don’t know why I love this podcast so much considering that a lot of the episodes are centered around hunting and I have never hunted anything in my life. I just like shooting and guns. I genuinely do not understand why I find it interesting to listen to people who actually do hunt talk about a hobby that I do not participate in and I actually think is quite boring. Granted… around my area the only hunting most people are doing is for white tail and to me that’s just a hard stop. I don’t have the patience to sit quietly in the woods, not smoking a cigarette, not talking to my buddy, not actually firing my gun for hours at a time for the chance to maybe possibly perhaps have a good deer come into view. Also, where I live you are not allowed to hunt with rifle. Only with bow or shotgun, and maybe muzzle loader but everyone here that I know just does bow or shotgun. There’s also some turkey hunting and I’m sure one could hunt birds of some kind. It’s one of those hobbies that seems cool from the outside looking in. I do however have a desire to try hog hunting. As I understand it, hog hunting is pretty straight forward. One just sets up in a farmers field and overlooks another field and waits for the hogs to show. I wouldn’t feel guilty about shooting hogs so much given that they are invasive and destructive. I have some moral qualms about shooting a deer when I have absolutely zero desire to harvest it. I was taught that shooting a deer and just leaving it is very unsporting and not in the spirit of hunting so I wouldn’t do it. Anyone have experience hunting hogs? Is it as straight forward as it looks?

[@VortexNation]

Hey Julian! First off - thanks a ton for listening in! Glad you enjoy the podcasts. Completely respect everything you mentioned in your comment. Where are you looking to hunt hogs? Would love to help answer any questions you may have about it.

[@JG54206]

@@VortexNation I don’t think they’ve made it up near me yet. I’m located in NY and I haven’t heard or seen anything about them being this far north. I hear they can be found as close as NC or TN though which isn’t too far of a drive. I went to NC recently to check out the Wilmington area and whatnot and it was about a 12hr drive. I have no real plans for it yet… it’s just that sort of thing my brother and my buddies and I always toss around as a fun trip to take.

[@jimmoseley2983]

The Hornady Match bullets are excellent for long-range hunting. I hunt the ag fields in South Carolina and shots range from 100 yds to 1200 yds. The longest kill shot was 1102 yds with the original 7 mag / 162 gr Amax. The bullet would expand down to 1300 fps. Hornady won't give out that info today with the ELDMs. I've used the ELDMs on mule deer, antelope, caribou, kudu, and other plains of Africa. I've re-chambered to the 7x300 win mag now. The bullet will shred the vitals and leave a silver-dollar exit wound. If I knew how to post a video, you can see a kill shot at 1065 yds and a test shot at 1210 yds. I also shoot the 108 gr ELDMs in my 243 with a 600 yd kill shot, which is the max range for the .243. The long-range game takes a tremendous about of practice and patience. I've worn out 5 barrels over the years. I enjoy the show and keep up the good work.

[@bradh8391]

Interesting to hear your experience, why the ELD-M, better expansion than ELD-X?

[@TheFORUNNERGaming]

​@@bradh8391 thinner jacket thickness, eldx is thicker than eldm of equivalent sized

[@jimmoseley2983]

The old timer who build my first rifle shot competition with Dave Hart and Walt Berger. He built race car engines for dirt track racing so Dave invited him to come up and taught him how to chamber precision rifles. He built my first 7mag rifle and the load development with the 162 Amax. His longest was 1140 yd with the 162 Amax. The thin jacket of the Amax would penetrate about 2 inches and go off like a grenade only to liquidity heart and lungs and yet the bullet base would leave an exit wound. My first long-range shot was 504 yds which was a piece of cake. So I eased out to 600,700,800,900 and 1102 yd. I switch to the 180 gr Eldm with the higher bc to fight the wind, less spin drift, and more energy on target. My 7 mag and the .243 will shoot .03 @ 100 yds. The new 7x300 win mag is shooting .07 with the 190 gr Berger @3052 fps with 72.6 grs of Retumbo. The goal for the upcoming season is to break the 1200 yd barrier. I have an old cartridge you need to talk about on the show. The 7x30 Waters. It's a 30-30 case necked down to a 7mm. It's a 200 yd cartridge max with a Nosler 120 gr Ballistic Tip. Have fun guys! Thanks

[@bradh8391]

@@jimmoseley2983 Wow! That 7x30 waters sounds cool!

[@georgewilson60]

I think one of the guys for the discussion of hunting South Africa where they like the head/neck area for placement would be Piet Malan from Impact Shooting

[@andreaexley8134]

My dad uses the Hornady 140 eldm in his 6.5 CM and they are very effective! The bullet don’t always go through but definitely a huge energy dump. He has killed 5 nice bucks with that set up, I used the 143 eldx last year and was very happy with that bullet also

[@hargrove_here]

I love these 30 minute 10 minute talks.

[@scottearnst8152]

Ryan, what your max range on mule deer with the 130gr ttsx in your 300 weatherby?

[@pbbananas]

Certain match bullets can be the best option for hunting when used correctly. Most people only refer to match bullets when discussing long range hunting, but this is not the only area low velocity expandable projectiles are applicable. For example, match bullets like the AMAX/eldM and TMK are the perfect solution for my needs. I favor mild cartridges like the 6.5/308, in short barreled bolt guns (16-20”), with suppressors, at close to intermediate ranges. These combinations are functionally and subjectively (due to reduced recoil and blast) very accurate and shootable. At mild muzzle velocities (with short barrels) between 2400-2550fps you do not have to limit your close range shots due to bullet blow up/shallow penetration like you would on a full length 24” barrel. The mild velocities from the start put less stress on the bullet allowing it to perform predictably. This is a similar performance need as impacts at extended ranges, as is typically referenced. Mild velocities allow deeper penetration turning a disadvantage of low impact velocity into an advantage by being right in the match bullets’ wheel house for effectiveness. An added benefit is that the match bullets’ high BCs offset the drop/drift disadvantages that accompany a lower muzzle velocity/shorter barrel. Conversely, a traditional stout hunting bullet is severely limited in a short barrel. Using a bonded or mono bullet at it’s bleeding edge of effectiveness is highly unethical. Having said that, I personally do not recommend match bullets to others unless they are willing to put the time into researching and learning which bullets are ethical and at what impact velocities they are applicable. They work but you have to have a good grasp of terminal ballistics and bullet constructions in general if you want any hope at using them effectively. I think this is a big reason ammunition manufacturers will talk out of two sides of their mouth by utilizing match bullets for law enforcement/military and having published data on their velocity thresholds, while at the same time not recommending them to the general public. The vast majority of people aren’t ballistics nerds and just want the simplest solution that works at the most common of distances in the most common of rifles. Companies don’t want to deal with poor feedback due to low information consumers misusing their products. Topic suggestion: styles of hunting and rifles/shot placement/etc in various places in the world. Scandanavia, new Zealand, etc… I would love to hear more elaborated on how they set up their rifles, where they aim, why, and generally what attributes they value. This is not only in reference to this video but past videos I’ve heard Ryan reference friends in Scandinavia using short and trim rifles and them not grasping why Americans use such “large” rifles. I have not seen this topic really touched on much besides anecdotal references. Also, kudos to Mark for admitting a bad shot with the amax. Most ppl would have just said bullet XYZ sucks and doesn’t work. They don’t want to reflect on the sources of error when they themselves could be at fault. This says a lot about his confidence in himself and his abilities.

[@jimpalmer4916]

Match ammo for hunting is for military use on human beings. Hunting ammo is for hunting hogs, deer, etc. The nosler partition can't be bested for hunting purposes. I will never shoot at any game animal over 300 yards because they deserve the utmost respect and a quick kill. The target loads are made for extreme accuracy with thin jackets. My Marine Scout Sniper platoons use the 175 grain Sierra Match bullets in the 7.62x 51 rounds with the m/40 a-5 custom built rifles built in Quantico. These rifles will not be used if they can't shoot sub moa groups from a very controlled environment. All human tendencies are removed from the situation which gives a true reading of this weapon system. DON'T HUNT WILDLIFE WITH MATCH AMMO! Semper Fi.

[@HB-kp6rl]

I thought for sure yall would compare the ELD-X to the ELD-M. But i am curious about those barnes bullets though

[@keystoneoutdoors_mb]

Shot a big body Manitoba whitetail with a 140 grain nosler RDF handload out of my 6.5 creedmoor at 196 yards. Dropped like a stone, kicked twice and that was it. Neck shot, right under his chin.

[@robertpettus6037]

I'd like to know your experience or thoughts on using aluminum tipped bullets like the Alco or hornady projectiles. Also thoughts about rebated boat tails, again like Alco projectiles or potential designs like a pointed boat tail with rebate/skirt style to reduce the air drag coefficient on the rear of said projectiles.

[@HansRoarWolstad-zp5uk]

Wat ar you thinking about the .338 Federal ?

[@southeastwhitetails]

I shot 16 whitetail last year using custom 300 rum 225 eldm. Distance from 70 yards to 384 yards. All very dead. All total passthrough. Some of the exit holes were softball size.

[@GarrettHoeffer]

One thing I would like to hear y’all talk about is some of the most underrated state’s for dear hunting. Not sure if it’s been done already.

[@mikemellon80]

Federal trophy bonded tip/terminal ascent bullet is the perfect bullet. lead front with solid copper rear and good BC. expands with deep penetration. would say nosler partition but their BC isnt as good

[@JohnAllenMay]

I am just now getting into long range hunting. I have a 6.5 PRC with a 24 inch barrel, a newly purchased razor scope, and several boxes of hornady CX outfitter ammo. I have a Montana elk tag. The information from Hornady’s website says the bullet is traveling over 2,000 fps at 500 yards. What is my maximum shooting distance with that copper bullet? Is it capable of killing an elk at 500 to 600 yards?

[@COSpacegunner]

I have used the same bullet, Hornady's 165-grain Interbond out of my .30-06 at MV at 3,000 fps. I have harvested two moose, several elk, mule deer, & a number of Pronghorns. The moose & elk absorbed 100% of the bullets' energy, as I recovered the bullets with 95-98% weight retention. The bullet blew huge exit holes through the deer & Pronghorns. I would like to try the Hornady 168 BTHP Match bullet out of my "tactical" M1A (.308 Winchester) on the Pronghorns. Even with minimal expansion, the wound channel should be more than efficient to drop the small animals. I would equate that bullet to a hunting bullet (e.g., 100 grain SP) out of my .243.

[@elhuervo6069]

I recommend match ammo for hunting because it specializes in accuracy, that it more important than velocity or expansion. you need to know where your shot will land

[@amn1308]

178gr ELD-X gave me the best groupings, so I use it for both range and hunting. Also temporarily my home defense round at the moment.

[@afj2082]

There is no wrong answer! Both bullets are effective in their perspective application. The standard for the last 40 years plus in the LE/military sniper game was the Sierra 168 bthp match bullet 30 cal. Things have started changing with the 6.5 being used more frequently. Accuracy was always paramount especially for LE due to most of the engagements encountered, hence the match bullet. Most LE engagements were 100 yards and under. Extensive testing done still showed over expansion and over penetration with thin jacket match bullets. In a hostage rescue or civilians in close proximity, jackets, lead pieces cause collateral injuries. That being said still far less then a standard monolithic or partition style hunting bullet used on a person. But for a larger Healthy game size animal, both applications are acceptable if you live with in the design of both projectiles. In a 300 rum 180gr Barnes LRX is my choice for elk and deer, the velocity threshold for that round is around 1600fps for that caliber. It will still preform as intended around 800-900 yards and is still effective. Kiwi lads are spot on for their application, neck head shot match bullet! Western Elk, Mule deer, Barnes are my go to for the last 30 years!!!

[@ccfdmd]

Would love to hear how you came up with the 600 max range for the Barnes Bullets. Is that based on a specific velocity and if so what is it? Is it caliber specific?

[@pogeegitz]

It's going to depend on the bullet, and the down range velocity (cartridge and load). The Barnes LRX requires 1600 fps minimum. The factory loaded 6.5 CM 127gr LRX drops below 1600 fps just beyond 600 yards. Out of my hand loaded 6.5 PRC, the 127gr LRX is good out past 800, but that's well beyond my capability as a shooter.

[@johnl5974]

Very interesting discussion. East coast hunter, cup & core. Woods under 200 yards, farm typically 100 - 300 yards. I blood trail.

[@jeffreywilson690]

The .243 beger classic Hunter 95 grain has done well for a friend of mine. 10 deer most having some of the bullet exiting All deer recovered

[@thewesternmohawk4995]

There is a time and a place for each type of projectile. Thick skin and heavy bone require tough bullets. In grizzly country I like mono metal projectiles also. Out in the wide open spaces high BC and ultra accurate loads that buck the wind can make the difference. Having confidence regardless of which bullet you’re using is half the equation, gaining that confidence through practice is the other half. I love these #10MinuteTalk episodes. Thanks for doing them.

[@Bobby-o8n]

I wasnt paying attention and used 6.5 match ammo last season and took 2 bucks and 2 hogs. One buck dropped in his tracks, the soul pig, did the same, and a big boar that went 50 yards. The other buck went a good ways but not the best shot but he did lay down and bleed out.

[@addisoneverett5945]

Can you PLEASE do a 10 minute talk on the 350 Legend and whether it is causing sufficient game hemorrhaging? Some people say they have lost deer due to poor blood trail, including a close friend of mine. I suspect this has a lot to do with cartridge selection.

[@parkervance3574]

I feel like this conversation should go hand in hand with caliber. Like a 30-06 with match bullets for whitetail is different than a .243 with match bullets for whitetail.

[@dominicteresi3835]

I'm form cali and been using solid copper for my while hunting career. Also have always taken a shoulder or behind shot and had nothing but success.

[@gebogen4409]

In California, so, TTSX in 30.06, 6.5 C, and 6.8 SPC, all hand loaded. Match bullets are for varmitting. My 2c. Hey, can we get some favorite camp recipes from your guests? I have my own traditions but I’d love to try different things in my Dutch oven…

[@tatsuhirosatou5513]

Ive had barnes tsx expand at 1500 fps, that said, i hunt with match ammo. Where i deer hunt 800+ yard shots are common

[@ChronicalsofAl]

So, match (or thinner jacketed) bullets at 600+, and monolithics under? And if he's 700-800yds, you should have time to slip an eldx in the chamber. Also, going in behind shoulder with match ammo and thru the shoulders with the solid?

[@ChronicalsofAl]

Eldm

[@joesabedra8792]

Hornady 143 ELD-X and the 147 ELD-m in mt 6.5Cre have an almost same (1/2 off set) are predictable value. We shoot Texas White tails at under 200 yards. I have found that the ELD-X does not have enough distant in body to perform. But the X does. It also enables the neck head shot to be devastating. Even a FMJ would snap the neck or penetrate the skull and kill the animal. My issue is that the ELD-X on Texas 90-120# deer does not have time to perform. The M will explode (except for a shoulder shot, but if you take a high shoulder it still takes out the central nervous system and drops it. So. In limited ranges the M lets you have options on shot placement.

[@shawnbryant466]

My personal preference is Sierra Gameking projectiles. The best performance I've ever shot!

[@hunterkkoehn5182]

I live in iowa, so I use a 450 BM for my deer season in a 20 inch barrel bolt gun. It loves the Winchester deer season XP and I like having a big bonded bullet to punch holes in both sides of my deer. I shot 2 bucks this last season at 180 ish and 220 ish yards each and both had complete devastating pass thrus and didn’t run more than 40 yards. Also helps that I had good 3-9x40 vortex glass on top

[@andrewcheff4035]

I am blessed that both my 243 and my 308 enjoy federal blue box basic hunting ammo one MOA for the $350 combo!

[@jackjmaheriii]

When it comes to whitetail, exit wounds are underrated.

[@joshperdue4157]

When hunting thick woods in the east and northeast an exit wound can be the difference between finding your deer and not finding it. It’s so thick in a lot of places they can bed down 50 yds from you and be extremely difficult to find.

[@jmythngdmb]

Would like to hear more about the modern smokeless powders, if Ryan is down we love to hear him talk about reloading so he’s probably got plenty of knowledge regarding burn rates and other details that make one powder different from another? I feel like I hear a lot about reloading but when it comes to powder it’s more like “pick one from the list and try it”, which is fine enough but the lists can be long. If anyone else is interested gimmie a thumbs up.

[@mot0rhe4d40]

Have only used "Match" bullets twice for hunting, which gave on game data. A-Max 168gr loaded into a 308. Whitetail hunting has had effective results. And would use for that purpose again. 77gr Nosler cannelure BTHP loaded in a 5.56 chambering. Young 4 point buck didn't go 30 yards for my youngest daughter. Blood trail was non-existent. Her shot was a little back in the liver. The round made a God awful mess. But didn't exit. Quickly decided that if she was going to hunt with the AR going forward. That a Barnes TSX bullet or a bonded Gold Dot would be the way going forward.

[@Rohan4711]

Be happy that you can decide for yourself using good wisdom what is suitable for a certain game. Where I live we have strict rules on so many things. A whitetail for instance is only legal to hunt with bullets of at least 139gr. And no difference in rules if it is a calf or a huge buck.

[@mot0rhe4d40]

@@Rohan4711 That is an odd rule to have. I know some states place a .243/6mm minimum diameter for hunting calibers. While AR is fine with you using a 22 Hornet for taking whitetail. In fairness to the classic 22 Hornet. In knowledgeable hands. It is a capable round. The one that always baffled me was the slug only states. I mean has there ever been a law? That goes out of it's way to make young hunters, not want to be young hunters. As much as that law does. I am glad to have plentiful bag limits with minimal weapon regulations. Could not imagine years of no hunting cause I didn't get picked for a tag.

[@Deerslayer1912]

I think for bullet selection, impact velocity is the most important criteria to look at. For me hunting out west, I want to be able to shoot up to 700 yards, but still be able to take a close range shot if needed. I use 212 ELDX in my 300 wsm at 2760. 2760 with a cup and core bullet is usually low enough velocity to not cause bullet fragmentation at close range and keep 2000 FPS out to 700 yards for minimum expansion. Match bullets are certainly more likely to fragment at close range, but they will expand at lower velocities making them more suited for long range terminal ballistics. Match bullet selection also matters. ELDMs and Berger hybrids have been shown to be quite effective, while other BTHP bullets don’t expand at all.

[@YoureSoVane]

Fun fact, the Sierra match bullets are specifically designed not to expand. They have military contracts for those bullets, and they would be void if the bullet expands like a traditional hollow point. The more you know.

[@marcmoore4115]

@@YoureSoVane Fun fact, the Hornady ELD-M is not marketed as an expanding bullet, due to military contracts... and yet it does expand - and very well. Another fun fact, what you're saying is completely false. "Ballistics gel hunting vs match bullets episode 26 - Sierra tipped game kings." by Long Range Hunting Group does a great job of showing the difference between the Tipped Game King and the Tipped Match King... spolier: there really isn't much of a difference. Also - how do you expect a thin copper jacket, with a lead core and a hollow point or polymer tip to not expand at say 3000fps... if it was an FMJ design or a solid, then yes, it woulnd't expand, since those are *actually* designed not to expand. There is a caveat, which is that many drill out the hollow point of the Match King, to make it expand more consistently at longer ranges.

[@YoureSoVane]

@@marcmoore4115 TLDR edit: we're saying the same thing. The manufacturer wants an accurate bullet, but "coincidentally" they expand well above a certain speed. From someone else's conversation with a Sierra representative (it was many years ago, so I'll be very hard pressed to find the source again) the MatchKing hollow point is for aerodynamics. Sierra specifically avoids advertising the ability to expand in order to keep their contracts. And Sierra also doesn't like other people talking about how well those bullets expand for that reason (nothing they can do about that, though). So yes, saying they're designed to not expand is a little misleading of me. The manufacturer designed them for accuracy, and as a side effect they can expand pretty well above certain speeds. In that way, I'm sure Hornady will never recommend their match bullets for hunting even if they work just fine. Speed is the determining factor here, so above a certain speed it'll split like a banana. Tipped bullets can ('can' is pulling a lot of weight in this sentence) lower that threshold for expansion, but at certain costs of manufacturing and reliability in the hands of the average grunt. Sierra's design seems more practical in those circumstances. I've seen many FMJs get screwed up before they even reach the firing line at the range. I don't think the Army, at least, wants to field tipped bullets en masse. Polymer tipped bullets are mainly for the BCs, and aren't meant to significantly aide in expansion. Your original point is absolutely correct. Impact velocity is the biggest factor in whether a bullet design will expand or crumple. But these hybrid style bullets are designed to be accurate with a "coincidental" side effect of expansion. It's like a poorly kept secret that no one will admit but everyone knows is true.

[@marcmoore4115]

@@YoureSoVane Honestly, I was way too aggressive with my reply - sorry about that! I think we do actually see eye to eye here lol, on further research it seems you're right with the Matchking BTHP not expanding very well, but the Tipped Matchking certainly does expand well down to low velocities, I think about 1500fps if I remember correctly. My guess with the BTHP, is that it mainly comes down to the flaws of Hollow Points being a less consistent, as well as the HP's hole being quite small, which means you need much more velocity to expand properly. I've seen some Match bullets with an HPBT design, but the Meplat is entirely closed, to a similar effect of an FMJ. Exactly as you mention, Hornady, as well as some other manufacturers, will likely never admit that the ELD-M/Match bullet is designed to Expand, because of their Military Contracts - According to the internet, the ELD-M is used by Military Snipers and so it's not allowed to be marketed as an Expanding bullet, otherwise it's against the Geneva Convention or something along those lines... rediculous, honestly. *Edit: In regards to "splitting like a banana" I'm going to assume you're exaggerating lol. I fire my 168gr ELD-M's at 2750fps, have taken multiple Gemsbok within 100m, even down to 50m. The do over-expand when they're simply going too fast, as well as core/jacket separation, but all I've shot at close range fell extremely quickly - no further than 20-30 paces and dead before you can walk those 100m to it. At such close range they seem to expand fully, lose the core and then the jacket over-expands, meaning it basically ends up back at original diameter. Still very effective though. Best "Mushroom" I've seen was from PMP Pro-Amm 180gr Bonded Soft Points in .30-06. From 10-150m, all three recovered were perfect. I appreciate your well put together reply.

[@YoureSoVane]

@@marcmoore4115 Don't get too hard on yourself. I think it's a good thing people are this passionate about ethical kills. And yes, the banana thing was a joke.

[@fnkdtnk]

This really depends on the bullets we’re talking about as not all hunting or match bullets are equal. I’ll take an EldM over Remington coreloks any day of the week, while I’ll take winchester supreme ballistic tips over sierra match king hp’s. I and my friends/family have lost more deer with coreloks than all other bullets combined, despite them being a “hunting bullet”. I’ve never had to track, much less lost, anything shot with an eldm, and have never lost, but had to track deer shot with the win supremes. I’ve been told horror stories about the smk’s penciling straight through deer and elk. I stick to loading eldm’s due to cost since I hunt with my target rifles and shoot them a lot. If I traveled to a hunt and forgot my box of eldm’s there are a bunch of hunting bullets I’d grab off a shelf and go with, if all I could get were coreloks or smk’s, I’d buy a few steaks and enjoy the scenery.

[@alexhunt9313]

I have used match ammo in my 300 prc at 60 yards through both shoulders and it passed out the other side it dropped in its tracks

[@Guadalupeaencinas]

It's my opinion that conditioner is very important. I use it and use it often. Can soap or shampoo alone do the job?? Like match bullets for hunting, yes. However, the proper protocol will always be conditioner after shampoo. I have no dandruff, no itchy scalp and full head of hair at 34 with zero thinning. This could be purely genetics, but I bet it's the conditioner.

[@keyogen]

Is there a discussion about head shot vs body?

[@Tradmark454]

Had a bull elk hunt 3 years ago. Hunting was tough and the only shot i got was up a mountain hard quartering away at 290 yds. Put the 180 grain trophy copper from a 300wm behind the onside rib cage and put him down. Bullet found up the neck. On the offside of the vertebra. Wouldnt have taken the shot without a strong hunting bullet. Only bull we saw all week. Ive seen numerous eldx failures. 3 to be exact. Shoulder blowups and decent blood trails till the blood trail disappeared and animal lost. Had the user used a gmx or now a cx theyd have their animal.

[@Theoutdooranalyst]

Would love a history and present use of 45 Colt/ long colt chat!

[@VortexNation]

That would be a good talk for sure! We'll get that added to our list!

[@GB-zi6qr]

Anecdote: my only 2 deer I've taken were with .223, 62gn BTHP running at ~2790. A retired marine I was with took a deer with 55gn FMJ, 5.56 from his AR. From what I can tell, placement is everything. My selection was my reloaded ammo, I know I keep a 1" or small group.

[@TMar129]

Using an fmj to hunt is just plain dumb.

[@GB-zi6qr]

@@TMar129 the deer didn't think so.

[@Catholic_reloader]

I would be very interested to know what anyone across the pond thinks about this mostly to understand their point of view because I do know in some countries , like England for example accuracy is of the utmost importance when hunting and we could always like you guys have mentioned learn a thing a two and vice versa