HVAC Contractor Explains Cold Climate Heat Pumps❄️🔥

[@redsquirrelftw]

My furnace broke down and had to make a quick decision to replace it, they did not recommend a heat pump in my area (it does hit -40 or even -50 sometimes, but rarer now days) but now that I think about it I probably should have gone that route anyway, since I'm in process of also installing a wood stove so that could act as my source of heat when heat pump is not keeping up. At some point I might look at putting in a mini split heat pump, can those be automated using a regular thermostat? I could set it up as a dual stage system, where heat pump is first stage and furnace is second.

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

It depends on the unit. You can do whatever you want with 24volt legacy relays and temperature controls but not all heat pumps are going to have those controls built in, some will and may allow you to connect it that way. The Mitsubishi intelliheat will tie into your current furnace setup if you’d like and that can be staged how you’re discussing

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

Can you do a video on the Mitsubishi Intelli-heat? I have an existing 98% gas furnace that I would like to use. So many questions. My Lennox SLP98UH090XV60C-04 system has a variable speed motor, will the Mitsubishi Intelli-heat tell the blower to run at one of the many speeds (I think it has like 256 different speeds) or will the Intelli-heat tell the blower to run at 100% or 0%? When heat heat pump can't maintain heat and makes a call for the gas furnace to start what CFM or blower speed will Intelli-heat tell the blower to run at when only in gas mode? When the furnace is in operation, is it controlled by the Intelli-heat or the Lennox circuit board? My wife likes to set the temp to 63F at night and then 65F during the day, I know it is hard for a heat pump to ramp up those 2F, but it is extremely easy for the Lennox furnace to make that change, can the Intelli-heat be programmed to do that morning 2F bump with gas instead of making the heat pump struggle?

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

We actually did a video about the intelliheat when we started offering them as a part of our product line. They work great but it’s not a communicating system in terms of how it communicates with the air handler, so it will function like a multistage system. If your Lennox furnace is new and not due for replacement the Intelliheat works well… it won’t be a true variable speed like how the Daikin fit communicates with the blower speeds, but it will integrate on a multi speed basis with your Lennox system

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

@@TheHVACDopeShow funny I just re-watched that video and I think you mentioned me at the end! Sorry I forgot about that video. I guess I am confused on all the ways that a heat pump can communicate with the blower or the furnace circuit board. This winter near Boulder it looks like the temp was only 5F and below for about 60 hours, so I guess if the blower only runs at one set speed I guess that's ok for only 60 hours.

[@eDoc2020]

@@DaveDugdaleColorado The Intelliheat would normally use a Mitsubuishi thermostat. When running in heat pump mode the furnace blower will switch between a high and a low speed. If it detects the heat pump is unable to keep up (or if it's below a customizable setpoint) it switches to furnace operation where it will send a request for either low or high heat. In gas mode the furnace fully controls its own fan speed as it always has. But there's another option. Your furnace can be paired with a matching Lennox communicating heat pump like the SL25XPV. This gives full variable control of everything: the heat pump compressor, the gas burners, and the blower motor. If I'm not mistaken the change between heat pump and furnace is gradual and undetectable. It should be perfect when in operation. All this would require the Lennox communicating thermostat which you may or may not have already.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

@@eDoc2020 thanks for the info!

[@workingshlub8861]

mitsubishi city multi is good system...works good up here in new england ....we can get down to the teens

[@batboyvaj]

Can you talk about the amount of power that the Daikin will use when it is at 5 °Fahrenheit vs using a high efficiency gas furnace in your area? Looking to see at what point the cost of using gas makes more sense.

[@eDoc2020]

If you know your gas utility rate, your electricity rate, and your furnace AFUE you can quickly calculate the COP at which both heat sources cost the same to run: Breakeven COP = (electric rate) / (gas rate) * AFUE * 0.293 (electric rate) is cost per kWh (gas rate) is cost per therm AFUE is the furnace's AFUE (usually 96 on a high efficiency furnace) Then you look in the heat pump's specification sheet to determine which heat source costs less. If the heat pump's COP is greater than the breakeven COP it costs less, or if the heat pump's COP is less than the breakeven COP then gas heat will cost less. Daikin provides comprehensive performance data. According to the publicly available SS-DZ17VSA document the 1.5 ton Daikin Fit has a heating COP of 2.22 at 5F. Other size variations have slightly different values. Here in Massachusetts we have relatively cheap gas and relatively expensive electricity so the breakeven COP for me is close to 3.0, which this heat pump only meets when it is 35F or warmer outside. With national average utility rates the heat pump would remain cheaper well below freezing.

[@batboyvaj]

@@eDoc2020My electric rate is .1723/kwh and my gas is .936/therm. I'm in MN (MNPLS/St. Paul, Xcel Energy) Based on your equation my Breakeven COP is 5.24. WOW. The heat pump I have is a Daikin DZ6VSA481E and a 97% furnace. The most efficient COP for this heat pump is 3.48 @ 65F. This means that using electricity at all for heat will always be more expensive that natural gas. Is that right?

[@eDoc2020]

​@@batboyvaj Almost but not quite. I think you're looking at the data on page 28 for DZ6VSA4810A but you have a DZ6VSA481EA (shown on a page 31). Here your COP @ 65F is listed as 3.75 which is _better_ but still not good enough. But there's also other data. I presume your furnace is either D*97MC0804CNA* (AHRI 213872271), D*97MC1005CNA* (AHRI 213872269), or D*97MC1205DNA* (AHRI 212614940). The AHU in the HP spec sheet is DFVE60DP1400A (AHRI 212614867). I'm listing these numbers more for my future reference. If we look at the NEEP ASHP database we some slightly different ratings (but the same no matter which furnace). Most notably we see that the COP from the spec sheet is close to NEEP's data at full capacity. At low capacity the COP is higher, up to 4.74 at 47F. Realistically your HP probably reaches the needed 3.77 when it's above 40F outside. Of course this is assuming your rates are accurate at .1244/kwh and .936/therm. Gas meters usually measure in cubic feet so make sure your rate is actually for therms. And I don't know how it works in MN but a bill in MA has both generation/gas costs as well as distribution/transmission charges. If present make sure you are adding all per-kwh and all per-therm charges. The nominal gas cost here is $0.6712/therm but distribution is an extra $1.231/therm, making the effective rate almost three times higher.

[@batboyvaj]

@@eDoc2020 My furnace is the DM97MC1205DNA. My rates were calc'ed using my most recent statement. Total cost of electricity and gas divided by the KWH and Therms used. It includes all taxes, distribution, and other fees. Even at the low capacity, I'm still at a breakeven COP of 5.24. I would never benefit from using the heat pump unless the cost of gas goes way up or electricity goes way down.

[@eDoc2020]

@@batboyvaj Then yes, your rates would need to substantially change for your heat pump to be more economical than the gas heat. This could very easily happen. In fact you could force it to happen by installing solar panels and getting free electricity.

[@operator8014]

Here in Northern Alaska, it stays -65F for weeks on end and we don't get above -30F for 4 months straight. Our ground is permanently frozen 2' below the surface. What heat pump would you recommend? My budget is around $4,000

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Nothing lol… the only thing that will work is geothermal if you’re able to drill loops and the ground can maintain temp but the equipment alone with zero labor is going to be well over $4,000 for that type of setup. -20F to -30F is typically where even the best cold climate heat pumps stop working

[@eDoc2020]

Are you _sure_ the Mitsubuishi Intelli-HEAT (PAA) qualifies as a cold climate heat pump? The Energy Star 6.1 Cold Climate certification for ducted units includes four main requirements, including a cooling rating of 15.2 SEER2 or better. The ratings I can find for the PAA are only 15.0 SEER2. Is there something I'm missing here?

[@aaronsamons5075]

Intelli-heat is a cold climate heat pump but it doesn’t qualify because the efficiency isn’t high enough. Just because it doesn’t reach high enough efficiency doesn’t mean it’s not a cold climate heat pump.

[@eDoc2020]

@@aaronsamons5075 That's kind of my point. Since it doesn't meet an arbitrary metric it's not eligible for incentives. Meanwhile other units are slightly (3%) better at cooling but worse (8%) at heating. Even though they use more energy overall they qualify for the efficiency rebates. When efficiency programs incentivize the wrong unit you know it has failed at some level. Fortunately I have found a line of "generic" heat pumps sold as Comfort-Aire VCD, ACiQ, and others. These beat the Mitsubishi's specs, qualify for the rebates, and are cheaper. The unit price is actually _less_ than my incentive amount. I'd rather have a Mitsubishi because it's probably better quality, longer-lasting, and easier to get serviced. But when the alternative is free (plus installation cost) I could afford to replace it once or twice and still come out ahead. By the time it fails hopefully newer, even more efficient models come on the market.

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

I didn’t think it qualified for the tax credit but see how my comment contextually looked like I was stating that and was confusing. I was trying to say it works as a cold climate heat pump, but no it doesn’t qualify currently. You make a good point it is unfortunate they’re incentivizing the wrong inefficient products based on a simple EER or other rating but I agree with your point! My apologies for being misleading on the intelliheat, wasn’t my intention!

[@peterciarroni8920]

Great video. Thank you!

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Thanks! My pleasure!

[@linchee2022]

I have conflicting sizing requirements from my bids. 1300 s f single level home and no basement but crawl space. One said 2 ton will be sufficient and others said 3 ton. Location is Salt Lake City annual high 64 and annual low 46. I have been watching your videos but I still don’t have a way on how to pick. Everyone just want to sell and I just want to be able to pick one system that works. I hope to hear from you. Thank you

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

I would go with a contractor that backs up their sizing pick with a guarantee and a heat load calculation that they can show you. I'm not sure who you called but can find someone if you're having a hard time finding a good contractor... honestly it sounds like a 2 ton to 2.5 ton without doing a load calc just because Utah is similar to Colorado but if it's a single family detached a 2.5 ton (or 3 ton inverter if there's no half sizes) would probably work best. But you have to have them size the ductwork and do a load calc

[@linchee2022]

@ Thank you so much for your reply. Please do send me contractors you know that can help me out. I have been throwing questions at them from what I learned in your channel about calculating cooling load and sizing appropriately. A couple of them discouraged heat pump and that kind of makes me wonder too. The power company sent an assessor out and he said heat pump works in Utah and suggested to me to insulate the ducting system and underfloor in the crawl space. I was quoted this one ML17XP1-030 which is a single stage and a 97 percent efficiency furnace both Lennox. Another is a 2 ton Rheem and 96 %. Thank you

[@linchee2022]

@ what do you think of this? Rheem Model #R962V0603A17M4SC and heat pump 2 ton RD17AZ24AJ3N. Will this be undersized? Thank you. 3 year labor warranty

[@Nek950515]

I have a energy monitor on my breaker panel and like to watch the heat pump cycle today warming the house up 2° in the morning. At 36 outside The condenser unit pulled 3200 W to start gradually dropped down to 2800 W then dropped off to 1480w and running their it’s about 12cents a hour in my city

[@Nek950515]

Wish I could drop a pic

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Me too that would be a cool feature for KZbin to add, Send a pic to contact@thebeehvac and we’ll post it with your comment. Very neat! If you also include information on the brand of heat pump and energy monitor etc I can make sure to plug that info. Thanks for the comment, that’s pretty cool!

[@barbara82589]

1) are any of the new US Challenge CC HPumps for central air ducted setup on the market yet? If so, preference on one for that setup? 2) when talking winter temps, should we use wind chill temps or regular winter temp? (ie - KC Super Bowl was -37F wind chill) 3) why do some CCHPs only go up to 2.5 or 3 tons? Is that why we see dual horizontal pumps, or are the duals used to cool different zones? 4) opinion on Bosch & Midea ducted HP’s & do they have Cold climate versions yet?

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

1. Not familiar with this but after googling sounds like “yes”… most of the systems on the channel like Daikin fit Enhanced or Bosch systems etc are cold climate and meet their requirements of operating efficiently “below 32f” (per the website). 2. No, wind chill is not the temperature of the air, it’s a reflection of how cold it feels not how cold it is… if temp is 10F but -22F windchill your heat pump thinks it’s 10F outside and that’s how the refrigerant and capacity at the condenser will function 3. Sizing and capacity constraints… they derate at low ambient temps and lose the status of “cold climate”. They’ll be more advanced systems developing, heat pumps are in high demand and much better than what was around 20 years ago 4. Not sure on midea but I believe so, Bosch yes both the 18 and 20 seer are considered cold climate heat pumps in terms of capacity and function at colder temps (5F)

[@joerodriguez6780]

I live in the greater Seattle area of WA. The rebates in my area are for replacing gas furnaces with heat pumps. It appears that most of the contractors are suggesting that I get electric heat strips installed as a backup heat source. We do get the occasional week that might get to 25 degrees but for the most part when it does get cold it stays around the 32 degree range. What's your opnion on supplemntal heat strips in the WA Seattle area?

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

At 25F as a low you probably don’t need them because the system isn’t derating yet and should be able to keep up providing the load calc backs that up. This is only true for cold climate rated products like the fit enhanced or any of the cold climate heat pumps that can keep up. A traditional heat pump still Derates a little bit 25-30 but not much. If it’s not keeping up I’d be surprised and would just make sure your duct work can support the size system you need for your heat load.

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

The upside to backup heat strips is that you’ll have backup heat if the heat pump goes out so that’s a plus, but as far as keeping up at those cold temps you’re probably ok

[@joerodriguez6780]

@@TheHVACDopeShow When you say the heat pump going out are you saying the outside unit? What if the air handler is what's gone, then you still don't have heat right? Also is there a site that I can go to to determine the correct size for my installation.

[@haskelswain1842]

What temperature do you suggest the heat strips be set to come on?

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Either for economy (cop switchover, varies by region and set temperature) or for comfort (based on load and when the system stops keeping up). Normally our changeover is set around 10F-20F especially for customers with Solar panels since they always want to prioritize electric / heat pump use to maximize the utilization of solar panels. Really varies nationwide but that's a general range

[@haskelswain1842]

@TheHVACDopeShow thank you for responding. I'm seeing so many videos including hvac training seminars saying to set heat strips to come on at 32-40. Seems ridiculous and very expensive. I wondered why not size heat pump big enough that 70% of its performance can heat home without auxiliary heat?

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Yeah that might be a single stage, sounds weird lol and it will come down to gas prices. In Colorado honestly gas is so cheap it's not necessarily a money saver below 30F but our customers on solar don't care and most don't care anyways if it's an environmental choice because the cost difference running at 20f or 15f in Denver is not that big of a deal usually. That's why it varies so much but most loads in Denver homes at 15-20F are such that the heat pump can keep up (because we always size for the cooling load since that's typically the constraints of the ductwork in Denver )

[@david-breitenfeld]

Could you explain and review window ac/heat pumps conditioners? I live in Woodland Park, Co, 8,500 ft. There is not many good reviews or products for cold climate heat pumps that fit in a window. My hydronic boiler was sized too small, so maybe a window a/c heat pump would work. I know this is not a product you sell, but maybe look into it. Other options could be the mini splits too. Anyway, maybe others could use a window a/c and heat pump. thx

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

I don’t know of many cold climate window heat pumps because they’re not very efficient due to heat loss around the window unit penetration. I would look at any cold climate mini split and they’ll keep up great. Something Like the Daikin Oterra would help substantially for backup supplemental heat

[@dzcav3]

There is some good information in this video, but I would like to make two points regarding economics and spelling: 1. You said that heat pumps are more economical than gas-fired furnaces. If someone was paying $0.81/therm (with a 90% efficient furnace) and $0.17/KWh (and 1 therm = 29.3 KWh), to break even, they would need a COP of: 0.9/0.81 x 0.17 x 29.3 = 5.53 So they would need to have much higher gas costs or much lower electric costs to break even on an operating basis, much less including the higher up front costs. 2. You would come across as more professional if you didn't have such glaring misspellings as "BTOS" at 2:45 and 2:55 instead of BTUS,, "DURATION" instead of "DERATION" at 3:24, and GAS "AS" PROPANE instead of GAS "OR" PROPANE at 4:54. (Perhaps the BTO was the Freudian slip of a Bachman Turner Overdrive fan.)

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

I agree on the typos I try to catch them before posting, this might have been the wrong version lol… the editors don’t always catch stuff but we definitely try to catch all the typos

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment… Also I said they can be, but it just depends on the region and a lot of factors. That formula is only accurate for natural gas scenario where that’s the actual cost for gas but you have to take design conditions into effect. I’m not sold one way or the other I always push whatever is more practical and meets the customers needs / desires. Propane is over $3 a gallon in front range so when we put in a heat pump people always save money over running propane. It just depends on the system and design conditions.

[@davidbashein]

Great channel! Q for you that I can't seem to find an answer to: If I buy a variable speed cold-climate heat pump with an ECM motor, do I also need a variable speed air handler? I'm building new and have quotes with both options. Thanks!

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Great question and it depends on the system. Some systems are “communicating” and will require that (like the Daikin fit), and others like the Bosch products don’t however you’ll get higher SEER / EER and efficiency ratings which translates to qualifying for certain rebates you might not qualify with a lesser air handler / furnace.

[@squibload58]

I'll just stick with burning wood, oil, or propane. I understand it and it always works no matter what the temperature is.

[@christianabiolao4775]

I live in edmonton alberta, before that, i was at lethbridge. Average temperature in winter months are from -21°celcius to -32°c. In December, we typically hit the -50°c mark. All the technicians ive spoken to in edmonton dont advise heat pump. What are your recommendations

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

At a minimum I would go with dual fuel so you have a heat pump with furnace backup. If you’re doing a ground source heat pump those will keep up even at -50C, and you’ll still have backup heat just for capacity at those colder temps but dual fuel with a changeover temp around -10C to -15C (around 15F to 5F) would be the only time I go for heat pump only because at -50C the only thing keeping up is gas or ground source

[@gas_man1565]

@@TheHVACDopeShow heat pumps dont work in cold climate. your electric heat does. Electric heat and heat pump are 2 different things. dont listen to the hvacdopeshow dude. he is lying to you. an orange is an orange. an orange isnt an apple.

[@gas_man1565]

hey Christian, i would put in a fireplace instead of a heat pump. Gas fired Fireplaces will heat the floor it is on. i have 2 fireplaces in my home 1 on my main and 1 in the basement. what ever floor im on i turn on that fireplace. works wonders!

[@coryr6359]

Hello, thanks again for all the amazing content.. I just wanted to ask you if you have any experience with GREE? I've heard that Mr Cool are just rebadged Gree's.. same goes for Senville here in canada- its just a gree. My challenge is that, as a plumber, i can get a 2 ton gree through my wholesaler- but it costs me $4000! .. .. The similar senville unit goes for $2100.. Anyways.. The big question is, what is your opinion on Mr Cool/senville/gree, as what ive found- they are all the same product. Thanks again

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Even if it’s private labeled there is a big difference between the different product lines. Just how Goodman has a side discharge that looks like the fit now it doesn’t have near the same performance as the fit enhanced so it’s not actually the same model with same specs. I would just make sure the efficiency is the same across the units you’re referencing because when there’s that big of a price difference on the wholesale side you’re normally talking different models and performance levels (both high and low temp performance)

[@ScottyDMcom]

Fantastic video. Thanks. I'm in Colorado Springs. *"Fun" story:* Found an HVAC vendor at a local home show who touted the fact they did heat pumps, so I invited them to come talk to me at home. They quickly quoted $18,000 for a unit to replace my gas furnace, auxiliary resistance heat unit included. I asked about a cold climate heat pump and they said that's a crazy idea, and that it'd double the price. Sounded like the BS was piling high and deep, so I declined. *Now* (or at least some time in the next 6 months) *seems like a pretty good time to replace my gas furnace with a heat pump.* Haven't talked to any other contractors, but with labor, etc, I suspect it'll be somewhere around $10k. Then I watched the _Ambition Strikes_ couple install a Mr Cool centrally ducted heat pump, including installing all the ducts (kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWrWYomNrbZga9E). It looked very doable (I'm strong in DIY skills and know how to pull permits). Mr Cool has a series of DIY friendly products. While reading Mr Cool specs and guessing how big a unit I might need, I realized *I may be up against my 200A service limit,* especially with Mr Cool's electric auxiliary heater. Also, Mr Cool isn't a cold climate heat pump, so it requires that auxiliary heater. Another giant issue is crappy insulation (especially in the attic). I've created a plan on how to improve that, PDQ. I think the right way to go is to insulate, then get a Manual J done before proceeding. My present furnace seems far more powerful than needed. *I'm also guessing I don't need a DIY friendly unit.* My (perhaps, ill advised) plan is to pull the permit, install the unit, then have a pro HVAC tech come out and fill it with refrigerant (have to see when the inspector fits into this timeline). *Info & Goals:* Colorado Springs. 200A service. 5,900 feet above sea level. 1,400 square feet on main level with a 2/3 basement underneath (the other 1/3 is a 2-car garage). Existing Gas furnace is "rated" at 90k BTU, but when derated for altitude it becomes 55k BTU. No AC. I have a heat-pump water heater and hate paying a gas connect charge in the summer when my usage is zero, so my goal is to eliminate gas and have the utility company remove my meter and connection. My rational is that I can make my own electricity easier and cheaper than I can make my own methane.

[@jasonbroom7147]

Man, you talk a lot. In northern climates, a heat pump works well "most of the time". That's why anyone from a place where it gets truly cold should ONLY be considering a heat pump along with some other supplemental source. We installed a new furnace and AC unit about 4 years ago. We included the installation of a conventional air-source heat pump. It works well down to around 35 degrees, farenheit. Below that, we have it programmed to use the propane furnace. This cost us an additional $600, but has reduced our annual propane bill (adjusted for inflation) by around $200/yr. This savings has made it a great investment and something others should definitely consider. You don't need to talk for twelve and a half minutes to explain that.

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

You must not watch a lot of KZbin lol… 8-15 minutes is a very popular video length for these types of niches, but Cold climate heat pumps work well colder than 35. Single stage systems start to struggle and the cop drops around that but the inverters maintain decent COP to 5 to 20.

[@jasonbroom7147]

@@TheHVACDopeShow - Maybe I watch too many! :) The heat pump we bought isn't meant for cold climates, but it sure does a great job keeping our energy costs down during the shoulder seasons. I would NEVER rely on a heat pump, 100% of the time, living in a colder climate. When you need it most, it won't work well enough. No thanks! Dual fuel or maybe if I was comfortable with a wood stove as my only source of heat on truly cold days.

[@Spp235.]

Dual fuel heat pumps are not a bad option - especially since the grid will struggle to complete power heat pumps if there is a mass adoption of heat pumps without dual fuel option. While this is eventually going to happen, it will take decades given the lifespan of existing equipment and natural tendency of humans to be overly comfortable with the status quo (meaning fossil fuel heating at the moment).

[@Spp235.]

BTW - I think you can reduce the cross-over settings to propane and achieve even better savings. Have you tried? In Ontario Enbridge does set an artificially high crossover point - but that is primarily because they are trying to preserve their Natural gas customers.

[@jasonbroom7147]

@@Spp235. - I have played around with that, but the heat pump on our system is only designed to work down to around 35 degrees, Farenheit. If I set the threshold any lower than that, it runs continuously but the house doesn't get warm. It still saves us a ton of money during the shoulder seasons and on warmer winter days. As the cost of propane went up, I was glad our consumption of propane went down. The heat pump has already paid for itself and I'll definitely be installing a duel-fuel solution on our new build.

[@Ortzmet]

Wasted time. Never explained what a heat pump is.

[@gas_man1565]

i can not know why you are all falling for his talk about heat pumps. HEAT PUMPS DONT WORK IN COLD CLIMATE, THE AUXILLIARY HEAT(which is either a different fuel) TURNS ON AND HEATS YOUR HOME. heat pump and auxilliary heat are 2 different things, Please get that straight! Stop lying to the customers!

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

You're clearly misinformed lol... read a manual maybe? Yes they work in cold climates. They're called cold climate heat pumps. The COP on these is above 2 down to 10F and above 3 down to 25F. AVERAGE low in the coldest month of January in Denver is 21F... explain to me how heat pumps don't work in this scenario? I'm talking about people with penguins and polar bears for neighbors...