Hydrogen car owners sue Toyota: "Hydrogen cars made our lives hell!"

[@electricviking]

The best solar company in Australia just installed my new solar system. Check them out here: www.resinc.com.au/electricviking

[@dollarmerchtree4587]

If Toyota believes in Hydrogen cars and wants to sell them, they need to have a Hydrogen refueling station at each dealership.

[@madjackgamingandfitness498]

Honestly a solid idea. If it’s your brand and you’re trying to support it, this could’ve been a way of doing that.

[@keithmichael112]

Makes sense to me, put your money where your mouth is

[@Ricardogs]

Hydrogen Is very dangerous, imagine a terrorist with a bunch of hydrogen fuels can do, the nature of hydrogen can make bond with almost anything and make heat and explosion at almost anything.

[@joejimmy8088]

هى تعتمد على الحكومات في العالم يفعلون ذلك بدل عنها 😂

[@kalzonenu]

Kinda like you have with gasoline you mean were you drive a tanker with fuel to refill the station. Instead of building a coalpowerplant dig down 1000 kilometers powerline and attach that to transformer to refuel your powerdrill with wheels. ..... I cant see that happen 😂😂😂😂

[@JeraXO]

Anyone who are still proponents of Hydrogen cars should now put their money where their mouth is and buy a Mirai.

[@vancity2349]

Toyota sold 10M cars last year and 2800 Mirai's. I would call that a fail....

[@MarvalentAudio-01]

and then they can set up their own Cat-Cracker in their backyard to make their own hydrogen. :)

[@christopherjoyce9788]

@@JeraXO it is a very good solution yet very few dollars are allocated to the research. You do realize we had electricit vehicles in he late 1800s

[@christopherjoyce9788]

@@JeraXO their is research being done Algee can convert basic water into hydrogen. We just lack an efficient storage system. Rushing green tech is absolutely foolish. With proper time and development hydrogen and or Ammonia might be our kids future

[@JeraXO]

@@christopherjoyce9788 Well.. Hydrogens been around since the beginning of time. What's your point? Like I said, you just need to put your money where your mouth is.

[@utahman3953]

$25,000 car, $15,000 gas card plus a chance for a class action lawsuit lottery, I'm in.

[@antobecerra127]

I got in early 🥴

[@SparkySho]

Yehehe

[@Michael-yi4mc]

Not me! I’m lazy!

[@johncahill3644]

Meanwhile you could buy a lightly used Tesla from Carvana for the same $25k. You’ll net more savings, get amazing performance and half a million miles of use and have a lot less aggravation (versus dealing with a hydrogen car and rolling the dice on a lawsuit).

[@slonold3554]

@@johncahill3644 lightly used 2nd gen Mirais currently listing under $15K at Craigslist, and I don't think anybody buying them.

[@markrowland1366]

After Toyoda looked into the camera, saying he lied habitually. He said that is how he did business.

[@Wiscotac]

Well, in a way, anyone that advertises over any kind of broadcasting utility, also many times lies when they tell the public everything that is good about some product or service while concurrently omitting any downside facts whatsoever, AKA The sin of omission. To those in search of the long green many many times it means screwing the customer right out of their pocketbooks.

[@williamgrunzweig571]

Poor toyota owners...bless their hearts.

[@bastardsonofabitchusa872]

Poor UAS car owners....got cheated by the biggest crook in the world ie UAS

[@royh6526]

I think a majority knew what they were buying. A nice luxury car with fueling difficulties at a bargain price. Most were leased, so no risk.

[@OtisFlint]

@@royh6526 Exactly. Some buyers had the right combo of incentives that made them nearly free.

[@netgnostic1627]

I'm sure somebody in the EV conversion world will do this: we need an EV conversion kit on the market for the Toyota Mirai. Pull out the fuel cell, the tiny battery and the hydrogen tanks. Put battery bricks where the tanks were. You already have the electric motor. If the price of the kit is low enough, converting a Mirai that you bought cheap could really be good.

[@Bryan46162]

Hydrogen is DEEPLY impractical as a fuel for so many reasons. It's not just pumps freezing up though. That's just an obvious one that people see. The other major problem that people experience that's less obvious (but still leads to hours long delays) is the time it takes a pump to repressurize. See, hydrogen has insanely LOW energy density by volume. As a result, it must be handled at mind boggling pressures to be able to cram enough onboard to get any kind of acceptable range. In order to accomplish this, a hydrogen pump needs to always be pressurizing the hydrogen. This process actually takes a lot of time because pumps that can both work with such a reactive element as hydrogen and can generate 10,000 psi are both expensive and slow. This means that a hydrogen pump can only service a handful of cars per hour. What frequently occurs is that too many cars arrive in too short of a time, the pump has not gotten itself back up to pressure and just displays an error and requires you to wait for ~20 mins or so for the pump to ready itself. If you're in a real hurry, you can sometimes accept a fill of hydrogen at half pressure... but this means you only get a half full tank... which is a real problem if the station is about half a tanks worth of hydrogen distance from your home. There's all kinds of knock on effects that can be extrapolated from the simple reality of handling hydrogen, like the fact that if a hydrogen pump can only handle 10% of the volume of traffic a standard gasoline pump can handle, we will need 10X the number of hydrogen pumps as we have current gasoline pumps. ... Where will we put them all? How will we pay for them when a hydrogen pump has such expensive components and safety concerns? Of course, industry has no concern about this because the simple reality is that hydrogen is a delay tactic, it's not a serious solution. It's there to dupe unsuspecting consumers and pacify ignorant lawmakers into delaying real action.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

One way to de-boggle the mind is to see the in-car hydrogen cylinder pressure as being about the same as being 4.5miles below sea level, which is twice the planet wide average ocean depth. The pumps are typically fed by high pressure and extremely cold liquid hydrogen, that would freeze-dry anything it touches on contact, with the cycle time required to safely expand the hydrogen to a high pressure gas to fuel on-car storage conditions. As well as the 20 mins cycle time an average hydrogen fueling site can only service about 50 refuelings before the site's liquid hydrogen storage tank is empty, meaning fueling sites can go days without being able to fuel any cars.

[@hedonismbot1508]

To be fair, DC fast charging hardware is also relatively expensive and slow. Though it has a massive advantage in that electricity is available across all of human civilization, whereas hydrogen fueling stations require extra infrastructure to produce and distribute the hydrogen.

[@paulstubbs7678]

One slight error, it's not to 'dupe unsuspecting consumers', it's more, by governments, to dupe unsuspecting fossil fuel workers that there is a future for them in this new emerging industry.

[@garethrobinson2275]

Do you have a channel? Because that was the best reply I've ever seen on this subject.

[@tomooo2637]

@@hedonismbot1508 The true cost of DC fast charging can be seen at tesla chargers (who are not ripping off people). We pay 30-50p/kWh which is about 50% of the cost of petrol in Europe and the same in USA (where the USA subsidies gasoline by 1Trillion $ / year). We charge our cars at home 80-90% of the time - meaning that I pay 1/10 of the cost of petrol/gas. In answer to "slow", no .... I drive to a charger on a trip, I plug in (about 20 seconds), I go for a pee and a coffee, I walk back to my car, unplug and drive off. I don't have to separately drive to a petrol/gas station after stopping to get fuel after parking for pee/coffee. I don't have to find a separate food hall, or coffee shop separate from my petrol station, and it does not stink of benzene.

[@mtnhorse260]

Toyota is sticking to their story because they know how far behind they are in EV and cannot compete. Actually that's the case for most of the Japanese manufacturers...

[@erickanter]

Hydrogen is expensive.

[@YouCCP2]

Nissan Leaf is the first 100% EV car ,but it lack charging station to support its popularity ...

[@tucker9162]

The electricity it takes to make Hydrogen would propel a BEV for more miles, so whats the point. Further, the Mirai isn't a particularly good car to begin with.

[@jb5music]

Because if you constructed two same size solar arrays and one of them charged a powerwall and the other one powered the Verde home hydrogen refueler... it might take more sunlight hours for panel array 1 to fill the hydrogen storage tank than panel array 2 to charge the power wall... but when the hydrogen car arrives to replenish its range it then leaves in 5 minutes. The BEV car has to sit there for hours... and it doesn't matter if it took less electricity initially to charge the power wall. Get it? They were both gone for much longer than that process took while they were in operation... The electricity generated by the sun was free... it was not metered. Now do you understand the reason for the invention of hydrogen fuel cell?

[@griffinsgarage2023]

@@jb5music the problem is it takes around 3 times as much energy to drive a vehichle the same distance if using hydrogen vs Striaght Ev. It takes roughly 40kw/h to produce 1kg of hydrogen, and then another 20kwh to compress it to the 700 BAR required in hydrogen vehicle. That 60kw/h will only get you roughly 100km of range, vs and EV which can go 300-450km on the same 60kw/h of energy. also ev's can charge to 80 percent in around 20-30 mins these days.

[@stevetodd7383]

@@jb5musicwhy is it important to quickly refuel your car when at home? For most folks the car is left to charge overnight when it wouldn’t have been used anyway. The amount of time the owners have to spend to connect and disconnect their EV is less than a minute. All the remaining time requires no waiting around so is effectively zero.

[@brucetaylor2887]

@@stevetodd7383 This is so true. It is faster for me to plug at night and unplug in the morning by far than it is to go get gas. If I average 40km a day then I only really need to plug in once a week (assuming a dedicated home charger).

[@garywozniak7742]

​@jb5music the energy from the sun is not free. You have to amortize the cost of your solar power system. It takes 3x to 4x the amount of energy to produce hydrogen and compress it for use in a HFCV then it does to charge and equivilent BEV. You need 3 ir 4 times as many solar panel and a compressor and a stirage tank for the hydrogen setup.

[@gerrycooper56]

The Toyota Hindenburg didn’t sell for some reason.

[@lucsmeulders3174]

hindenburg was not toyota production hydrogen is so good al fear the top kwalitie of toyota now they try to make refuel dificult thets why they bring a model on yes water

[@MarvalentAudio-01]

Toyota’s decision to stick with internal combustion, whether petroleum, lpg or hydrogen, is sending them on a path to their very own ‘Kodak Moment’

[@andrewlim7751]

Not just ice, the chairman swore by hydrogen, it's basically one man screwed the whole company.

[@demdox]

The infrastructure isn’t ready yet doesn’t mean the technology is bad. Hydrogen in theory makes much more sense than battery powered electric cars.

[@naamadossantossilva4736]

No it doesn''t.Hydrogen is an atom that can slip through the iron core of the planet,containing it will always be a pain.And that puts limits on hydrogen cars saner tech like BEVs and ICEs don't have.

[@Controvi]

In my opinion hydrogen makes a lot of sense for cargo transport. Electric makes way now sense for consumers

[@Ricardogs]

Hydrogen is a gas, bond with pure air making a chemical explosion, and could lead to terrorist attacks if you made public avariable, the ideas is good but humans are the worst part of it.

[@TheWwong]

Feeling sorry for the buyers? "I should, but I dont". Very well stated.

[@hedonismbot1508]

Recently, I saw an article about someone who had bought a hydrogen car, had the fuel cell break down, then had the dealer quote them more money to fix it than they originally paid for the car. Add in having nowhere to fuel outside a couple areas, and even $10,000 is too much.

[@OtisFlint]

For 99.99% of people it doesn't work, for a few people it does actually make some sense due to the incentives. I talked to one guy with a Mirai who just happened to have a station near his house and another near his work. The car was $10k after all the rebates and fuel is subsidized, so it happened to be the ideal car for his commute in CA.

[@rossmyers8448]

In Australia nobody will hear about this via traditional media because Toyota are big advertisers, the media can't bite the hand that feeds them.

[@malcolmrickarby2313]

Yes everyone. The Murdoch media ie Fox began here even though Aussies have excellent bs detection ability. Toyota are major advertising spenders here as football and TV news bow to them.😊

[@morgan3392]

Hydrogen fuel sounds like a potential fuel source for things like electrified semis. Quick to fuel, long range to complement hybrid regen, no emissions, and with semis being massive trucks, you wouldn't need gajillions of fueling spots. Obviously wouldn't work right now, but the idea of hydrogen is neat enough that I hope it has some sort of future.

[@MYRRHfamily]

So the car is fine, but the availability of fuel isn’t as advertised? That sounds like our loss (we consumers), and not Toyota’s fault.

[@ArthurX-eg8bc]

The infrastructure, temperature, and compressor aspects will remain endemic hurdles. The current economic picture prevents the investment to resolve those issues. We cannot make short-term conversions of transportation modality.

[@SilvaDreams]

​@@ArthurX-eg8bcAnd not like it's anything new. This is decades old knowledge. Hydrogen productions is and will always be expensive because it takes a lto of energy and for the most efficient production requires platinum anodes. Not cheap and they are destroyed in the production.

[@eng3d]

@@ArthurX-eg8bc "The infrastructure, temperature, and compressor aspects will remain endemic hurdles." So the same with the old pump stations.

[@alastairhatt360]

I keep having this discussion with my brother who thinks hydrogen is the future….. I have a Tesla M3 RWD refresh and he thinks this is the worst idea ever. Lots of FUD with him! Given up trying to discuss as not interested. Love spending $5 a week on electric to drive my car.. 👍🇦🇺

[@moestrei]

Wrong brother.

[@christopherjoyce9788]

@@alastairhatt360 they have Alge that might solve this issue but storage is the ultimate problem. Where do you think all this infrastructure and electrical power will come from.

[@beauporter8440]

Lol remember 5 years ago when electricity companies said they will pay you to top up the grid with your excess solar? Well that changed real quick and now electric providers charge people.to take the excess electricity. So enjoy the 5 buck weekly fill up.cause that won't last long.

[@Wyvernwings]

All good until your battery die and needed a replacement. All those saving just gone up in smoke. Plus your ev would've depreciated like crazy by now.

[@mcsike7264]

​@@Wyvernwings thats not how that works you battery don't just die out of the blue battery degrade not not so 500k miles it will still have 70% of items capacity and I dont think they will have there car for that long 😂

[@barrymayson2492]

I always thought hydrogen was a bad idea knowing how difficult it is to keep hydrogen in a tank . It's a real slippery customer. Keep hydrogen for rockets.

[@craigfiebe802]

Thanks!

[@Mabeylater293]

Hydrogen cars for airheads🤣 Seriously though. Not only did toyota lie to them; they lied KNOWINGLY!!!!!!!! Akio Toyoda himself SPECIFICALLY AGREED WITH ELON MUSK WHEN ELON CALLED HYDROGEN CARS “mind boggingly stupid”. The Plantiffs should find that quote and use it in court!!!!

[@sokoo1978]

Musk called it many times "fool cells" :D

[@TerryHickey-xt4mf]

did you get a discount on exclamation marks?

[@lucsmeulders3174]

old garadges try to stop the future of mankind 0.0 polution

[@hugowells3052]

I’ve known that hydrogen is a scam for passenger vehicles for years. However, I still feel sorry for these people as they probably got the car because they bought into the FUD about BEVs in the first place

[@i3looi2]

Mirai owners paid for an IQ test and now they mad they failed the test with flying colors : ))

[@SparkySho]

Yehehe

[@brucetaylor2887]

I asked a senior product engineer at a large international trucking firm if he was sick of people talking about hydrogen. He said yes, he gets it every day and it makes no sense. Then he used reasoned arguments I make all the time. It was SO refreshing to have that conversation. I mean I'd love hydrogen to work and be a good thing, however it make (at least at present and likely in the future) no sense at all for very simple understandable reasons.

[@abimaelcaraballo3779]

GM was experimenting with hydrogen technology back in 2008. They actually had a Chevy Equinox to showcase their tech. They stopped experimenting for a reason.

[@shyviking]

Smart move. As long as energy is not de facto free or at least very cheap, hydrogen is hopeless.

[@scottgardener]

There's more battery electric charging stations in my garage than there are hydrogen fuel cell charging stations in my state. I can't even call fuel cells the Betamax of EVs, because Betamax at least was objectively technologically better than VHS.

[@chrisofnottingham]

The thing is, how did they expect it to go if they don't set up a refuelling infrastructure? Tesla put huge resources into their charging network, plus people can charge EV's at home anyway.

[@mikafiltenborg7572]

🤡Toyota HYDROGEN 🤡

[@Michael-yi4mc]

🤡

[@UlandaZimber]

Energy efficiency: BEVs: 80% Everything else: 30% (when they are new). Now even if you only focus on this and the price: who will pay far more in order to not even reach half the distance?

[@moestrei]

These 30% is at their max torque rev and full load which is a very rare condition in reality. The true average efficiency of ICE is way below that while electrics a efficient in all scenarios.

[@sham27007]

This is the same story as EVs when they first came. Replacement porsche batteries are £50000 plus labour. In the uk

[@Simon-dm8zv]

Not true. Hydrogen cars have been around for over a decade and it is still shit because of physics and math.

[@SkepticalCaveman]

Hydrogen cars are such a bad idea.

[@mukamuka0]

Hydrogen car has physic problem which is the definition of wall no one can cross. Hydrogen fuel can never be cheaper than pure electricity.

[@paulmichaelfreedman8334]

What I said 20 years ago. Just too damn dangerous.

[@jantjarks7946]

Even worse. Every single drop of liquid hydrogen will be required for the future hydrogen based industry and economy. At least that's what we are fed in the media right now. Fighting for hydrogen access will surely lead to cheap refueling prices.... right? Right? 🤔🫣😉

[@thyristo]

What? They are a blast!

[@sharpie132]

They said that about gas cars too 😂😂😂

[@GregoryFlack]

Started to update my resume after my boss said he thought hydrogen cars were the future…

[@JohnDunkley]

😅😂 I know a guy who sells EVs looked me straight in the eye and said hydrogen was the future..... I would not buy anything from him

[@Dee-np6oe]

lol

[@Rabs73]

You know how well the marketing has worked in Australia with the number of people who say "hydrogen is the future". This is after they see your EV that you have driven 35000km in 18 months with no charging issues.

[@pegefounder]

I told them at the IAA 2015 in Frankfurt as they introduced the Mirai.

[@malcolmrickarby2313]

Fair Warning ⚠️ 😊

[@Seventh7Art]

Ιf Toyota paid me to own and drive a Mirai, I would still reject it!

[@JakobFischer60]

Why do they sue Toyota? They all have been warned. Multiple times. By many. They did not want to listen.

[@paulstubbs7678]

Maybe also the Japanese government, they were pushing it real hard, kind of mandating their auto industry support it.

[@shyviking]

Some of the hydrogen supporters have this almost-fanatical slant to their arguments. Much more stubborn and fact-resistant than your ordinary ICE "I will never buy an EV" - guys. Almost like people, who insisted that communism was "just on the horizon, and it is going to crush capitalism" back under Honecker and Bresnev 😂

[@paulstubbs7678]

@@shyviking They have no choice, otherwise they would have to own up on burning a good chunk of their money

[@junkeatng]

Driving around with a Hindenburg strapped to your behind is not a good idea. Hydrogen is more volatile than LPG.

[@shyviking]

HEVs effectively died here in Denmark some months ago when the only hydrogen tank network decided to close all 10 stations. Only models available anyway were the Mirai and the Hyundai Nexo. And they were mostly used for taxi duties. So extremely few private sales. Toyota quickly decided to realize their losses and offer buyback on all the Mirais. What Hyundai did, I don't know. But the conclusion was clear: Hydrogen didn't have a future in Denmark.

[@hvxcolors396]

Toyota should register as Church of the Holy Fuelcell. They already have a pope and plenty of local churches/dealerships. Keep the funnies coming Viking!

[@Wiscotac]

Are you sure it's not the Church of Scientology? Or maybe it's club for the independently wealthy.

[@effingsix3825]

This is how you make hydrogen work as a fuel source. All of the infrastructure exists already that could implement hydrogen as a part of the energy grid. You use a geological source of hydrogen, and have the hydrogen from the well piped into a district scale or electrical grid scale fuel cell stack. Since the fuel cell stack would be producing energy 24/7 safely without pipelines or transporting it to another location, you have the energy transmitted through the electrical grid. There would be no need to store the fuel in a moving vehicle. You only charge for electrical grid use per kw/hour. A hydrogen powered car is completely unnecessary therefore.

[@alex.velasco]

Car companies like Toyota that have postponed the transition to EV had better have huge cash reserves, which they’ll need to finance retooling their production lines to EVs (no small matter) with almost no income, because all their gas/petrol cars will be sitting unsold on the sales forecourts as their customers abandon them for better value, higher quality Chinese EVs.

[@JoeyBlogs007]

Only a complete fool would buy one.

[@myphonyaccount]

Or a conservative 😂

[@erickanter]

@@myphonyaccount Ok tree hugger.

[@Negev-Israel]

It's called "Fool Cell" for a reason

[@avernar]

I’m not a complete fool. Several key pieces are missing.

[@itsyo42]

@@avernar The only key piece missing is God descending and changing the laws of physics.

[@shem44]

Given the price and inconvenience of of hydrogen, Toyota should give their car for free. I don't even want to change to ev currently and will wait for a few more years for it to mature. Those Mirai buyers are gamblers.

[@JensPilemandOttesen]

In a Bjørn Nyland episode 6 mth back. He pointed out an abandoned Mirai... Owner just left it at the H2 Station.

[@danielstefanovic2604]

Think it was registered on a toyota dealership so problaly a demo car and the dealership cant be bothered to tow it back.

[@vasiliynkudryavtsev]

Last year a methane gas station blew up spectaculary in my city. It was all over the news. Hydrogen, I think, is even more scary.

[@johns4651]

One of the biggest benefits of EV is that you can plug-in at home before you go to bed, literally takes 6 seconds to plug in. Something impossible to do at home with hydrogen. What a stupid idea.

[@massimovergerio2151]

sorry for them?... come on.. first mistake was they bought a Toyota, and the second mistake was they bought a Hydrogen Toyota... nah.. not sorry, shocked, but not sorry.

[@rogergeyer9851]

In the real world, 90%+ of Toyotas are fantastic cars. (Not FCEV's though). But don't let facts influence you any more than, say, a flat earther, re Toyota and their success the past 40+ years overall.

[@massimovergerio2151]

@@rogergeyer9851 You are 100% correct, but their politics are enough for me to dismiss them entirely.

[@garywozniak7742]

What politics are you referring to ?​@massimovergerio2151

[@danielstefanovic2604]

Toyota and Huyndai made a big mistake in not taking responsibility in building the filling network like tesla did with the suc.

[@antonnym214]

Sam, we love you for the same reason Toyota dislikes you-- You report the truth. Don't stop! All good wishes.

[@zoltanberkes8559]

Toyota shoukd replace those H tanks in Mirai with batteries and after that selling at a discoubted price. That's the real value.

[@Webcrawler45]

To be fair, they typically do not sell these vehicles. They lease them and the people give them back once the "Free" fuel credits run out. It is also worth noting that due to hydrogen embrittlement of any metal is comes into contact with the yearly maintenance costs on these stations is higher than any possible profit from the sale of the already too expensive hydrogen,. That is why over 40% of the stations are usually off line entirely.

[@jackalopewright5343]

It takes 3x more energy per mile driven to use hydrogen than to just put the energy into a battery. Every fuel cell car has a battery. It’s just handicapped by having a battery that is too small and having to carry either a cryogenic liquid or 15,000 psi gaseous hydrogen.

[@amjedali5164]

Japanese companies are still pushing this myth of Hydrogen being the future of cars. Had my ICE car serviced which is attached to a Nissan show room while looking at a few cars a middle aged saleswoman was giving me a lecture about how hydrogen is the future, and I should wait until it will dominate the market. The only reason I engaged with her is because they have one of the last R35 GTRs available and might purchase it as a future investment because no way the R36 will ever come into production (if it does it will be some other car wearing the badges)

[@yo2trader539]

Nice story but Nissan doesn't sell hydrogen cars.

[@amjedali5164]

Never said they did? The saleswoman was rambling on about some future tech nissan has so i should hold off buying. Who is training these people.

[@AnalystPrime]

@@yo2trader539 They don't have to, the point is to keep you waiting for the mythical hydrogen car so you will keep using their ICE car instead of buying an EV.

[@amjedali5164]

​@AnalystPrime, you are 100% correct keep me waiting while I keep buying outdated rubbish. The R35 GTR is one of the last they have so basically as an investment buy store and sell later for a profit with no capital gains tax.

[@radzer0966]

There are more stations that sell lead fuel than hydrogen. It’s a joke.

[@shyviking]

Yes... Is is a technogical and practical dead end.

[@smthB4]

Are they worth canibalising the electric motors from them?

[@danielstefanovic2604]

No get a fisker ocean for same price instead, the parts are much more worth.

[@rokkofol8948]

Tbh all the information i can gather points to the fact that for the past 10 -15 years we poured money into developing electric vehicles and that the infrastructure for hydrogen cars is non existent, which leads to most of the problems.

[@blurglide]

Ever since nickel metal hydride batteries came out hydrogen didn't really make sense. With lithium ion, it's a no-brainer. Hydrogen might one day make sense for specialized applications, like air liners.

[@casperhansen826]

There are no hydrogen refueling stations in my Country, they both closed a couple of years ago together with a couple of stations in my neighboring countries.

[@pendo1367]

Here's a hydrogen fact - used the NSW Government app (Australia) 'Fuel watch' to see where the hydrogen refill stations are. Nearest one to my house was in Victoria. Doh! I've always been a Toyota fan (my 2005 Toyota is still going strong) but I'm quite disappointed about Toyota having their head in the sand with EV's. Looks like my next car will be Chinese.

[@Bemx2k]

Hydrogen tanks a very ,very expensive !!! tank last only 7 up to 10 years after that time must be replaced , cost of Toyota Mirai hydrogen tanks is about 8k USD !!!! !!!! . Good Luck with hydrogen cars :)

[@vancity2349]

Ya its like a propane tank

[@bubba842]

​@@vancity2349Alot more higher pressure than a propane tank.

[@vancity2349]

@@bubba842 Oh agreed by mentioning as the similarities as they have to be replaced

[@robtangent4664]

H2 is an expensive commodity. That's the problem with H2 cars.

[@machineabart]

It all depends on where you live. In Europe we are way ahead of things in terms of eco-friendly solutions. We have hydrogen buses, lorries and now as a consequence we get more and more hydrogen stations where we can fill our passenger cars. But it all started from heavy transport and went down to the private cars. Living in Warsaw/Poland we just got a first in Poland H2 station opened just over a year ago. Now there are 4 or 5 in the whole country but please consider the size of the country vs. U.S. We are like a California state by size if not smaller. In Germany for instance there are over 110 H2 places you can fill up your cars (700 bar) and buses (350 bar). In general the idea is great. The cars do not have to carry the extra load in form of batteries. Mirai having battery would be some 600 kg or 1200 pounds heavier and that affects handling and creates a lot of smog from brakes and tires. I remember the beginnings of the battery cars. The infrastructure was way behind for years, now is much better but still not ideal. I believe H2 is an alternative way and if those super-big corporations like Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, Honda see it that way I believe them. Besides. It is always better not to be dependent on Chinese batteries entirely. I was shocked when saw prices of H2 in the U.S. We pay just over 16 USD per kilogram when having about 30 Mirai cars in Poland. If that number goes up it should be cheaper.

[@MustangMke]

So the problem is not the Car...It.s competition and vandalism, preventing use and construction of fuel centres ,they should sue the competition

[@coffeeisgood102]

This is a real shame. When Toyota first introduced itself to North America 60 years ago their quality was far better than the big 3 which had grown stagnant and boring. Toyota made a splash with new efficient designs which contributed to a superior driving experience. And their cars were reliable. Americans took notice and gobbled these up as fast as they could be produced. Today Toyota has become stagnant just like GM, Ford & Chrysler were back in the late 1960’s.

[@newdrew2744]

Hope all is well. Not use to going this long without seeing your videos.

[@birdsnature6421]

same, not posting a video in 3 day is madness, consider he post 3-5 daily

[@205rider8]

How could anyone not see that using fuel cell cars are foolish?

[@richardbambenek2601]

It takes more energy to liberate hydrogen than the hydrogen produces. And who really wants the roads full of little Hindenburgs

[@andrewvercillo7584]

I live in Connecticut and just checked, we have 1 fueling station in Connecticut! And it’s an hour away! lol have you ever been in a Toyota Mural? You can’t even sit in backseat, the floor is so high!

[@shyviking]

A technological and real-life dead end. Here in Denmark, all 10 hydrogen fuel stations closed some months ago. Toyota had sense enough to offer Mirai owners (mostly taxi companies) buyback. What Hyundai did with the even fewer Nexo owners, I don't now. But bottomline is, that hydrogen is effectively dead for the foreseeable future here in Denmark. Sounds about the same in USA... And probably all other places, too.

[@Lifecoach7Ra]

How can a literate person buy a H2 car ever? At least Hyundai Group considers H2 as rolling laboratories, BMW builds still 250 cars probably on taxpayers cost and Toyota needs to stop as they do not even reach 1000 cars a month. But if for 100 years ICE age cars reach only 21% energy efficiency the e-Fools and idiot H2 fraction reaches 12% and fact is; there is not abundant green energy to electrolyse but not enough storage, Tesla is working on that with its Megapacks. But considered that Fool Cells cars need intense servicing TCO compared to EV are far away from real and infrastructure is by far too expensive. Also fact that nobody besides Tesla has a really working alternative ‚fueling‘ system set up makes me believe that also with even more complexe H2 NOBODY can ramp that up for masstransport. And BP goes all in with that hardware from Tesla too as well as Shell goes out of H2-stations due to logistics and technical problems. And still E-Trucks and EV are at 68% Energy efficient!🤔 Then where people can and must calculate, the Tesla Semi which is similar in weight to actual Diesel but without fuel in the tank has more payload and US as well as EU just accorded the ‚usually’ heavier - all other brands are on Diesel-Chassis they have only electrified - E-Trucks and H2-Trucks some more payload but only the Semi can benefit from and will make transporting more profitable also with little downtimes, more drivers comfort, FSD and Megachargers. So the race is definitely on, since knowing some more Tesla-facts that describe a 400 to 800 km-truck fully loaded that consumes 1,05 kWh/km and goes from 0-100 km/h in less than 20 Seconds. H2 is lightyears away from such figures and for cars and trucks definitely no more an alternative, even not to Diesel because even actually Diesel trucks supply H2 to the H2 gas stations🤪🤡 So better tear them down and make good, covered charging point for cars, cars with trailer, trucks and motorcycles that work like those of Tesla!

[@MrGMawson2438]

Great work Toyota

[@triforcelink]

Solar + hydrogen sound pretty awesome actually. Use excess solar to produce hydrogen, use hydrogen on cloudy days/ winter months. Just poorly executed

[@Simon-dm8zv]

Not in vehicles though.

[@triforcelink]

@@Simon-dm8zv If it was abundant, cheap, and safe, why not?

[@Simon-dm8zv]

@@triforcelink Will never be the case.

[@triforcelink]

@@Simon-dm8zv not with that attitude

[@Simon-dm8zv]

@@triforcelink That's not how reality works. And even IF we ever get abundant energy in these insane amounts, hydrogen in vehicles remains a terrible idea because of several other reasons.

[@kiwijonowilson]

Throughout the years of transportation, new "motivation" technologies have been transitioned in (horse -> electric -> steam -> internal combustion ....> electric), BUT the important thing about every transition is that next technology offered an ongoing benefit to the vehicle owner over previous technology. EVs offer some benefits to the owner (low running cost, quiet running, leave home every day with a full "tank", cool tech etc) but where are the benefits to the owner for Hydrogen? There just isn't enough to justify rolling out hydrogen networks that I can see.

[@malcolmrickarby2313]

Strong argument that 😊

[@shyviking]

Yes... Hydrogen is (from the consumer POV) just a more cumbersome ICE.

[@Michael-yi4mc]

Sam warned us about this hydrogen car’s perils.

[@dausume]

Hydrogen and hydrogen engines I think have solid use cases for bulk energy storage and eventually for regular space travel. For bulk storage because if you make a bulk storage tank (or reservoir if you retrofit an old mine or something.. not sure how realistic that is though) and build it well it can considerably lower the chance of the gas escaping storage. Issue probably is trying to find a reasonable way to do that where you dont make the concentration unusable or unpumpable. Would need to test and simulate various models to see what is best. For space travel, since it is so abundant and how it will still be useful for air travel, or at least putting stuff on top of atmospheres, for basically every atmosphere. *but yeah not for cars, it is one of the hardest gasses to contain and while it is abundant it is also one of the most reactive gasses and explodes pretty good. It is probably okay for air and space travel because everything is far apart and there is a low chance of collisions happening… and the people driving can be trained and professional to where they are actually cautious. Or even if there was one you would be screwed anyways. In the case of air the Hindenburg had people decide against it… even though we have higher death rates among people just driving normal cars these days compared to what death rates are like for hydrogen balloons.

[@scottkolaya2110]

The problem with energy storage is it's round trip efficiency. I was on a panel where many of the major hydrogen companies attended. They talked about how many kg they can produce, they talked about how much power they can generate but trying to get them to tell us the round trip efficiency was like tying to nail jello to the wall. Finally they couldn't avoid it any more because people were getting verbally upset about them avoiding the question. They said overall 24%, the call went silent as you could imagine the virtual jaws dropping. Just for reference, pumping water uphill and running it back down gives a round trip efficiency of 70%.

[@Turboslang]

I find it quite pretty.. also, making h2 gas is really easy… only thing i am not sure about is the pressurizing part

[@barryinciong6822]

What if: 1. I live near an operating hydrogen station 2. I get an incredible deal because they are such a bad option 3. It's not the vehicle I would depend on; it would essentially be an extra If I bought used privately or through Toyota how likely would it be that I receive a settlement if Toyota is forced to pay out claims?

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Can you buy a used Mirai though? All FCEVs to date have been leased rather than offered for outright purchase, a number of the parts in them have to be replaced at certain ages, which is very costly and for some parts cost prohibitive at the moment hence the market is more by way of controlled consumer experiment. I would imagine any class suit would focus on misleading claims vs reality, rather than any product fit to a need. Hence if you bought one now and Toyota stated facts, and explain why the price is heavily discounted, you would not have basis for a claim.

[@malcolmrickarby2313]

Unlikely that you will get anything from the class action unless you’re a lawyer or a judge 👩‍⚖️👈

[@royh6526]

@@GruffSillyGoat All Mirai are sold after their lease is up. Lots for sale cheap. In fact for most of 2022 and 2023 Toyota had a $20k discount, add $8k fed tax rebate, $5k California subsidy, 6 years or $15k free fuel and subtract all that from the $52k price..

[@GruffSillyGoat]

@@royh6526 - That's interesting, do Toyota provide maintenance packages for the life of the car to the end of lease purchasers, or outline the maintenance requrirements of the fuel cells components (mebranes, anode/cathode plates, diffusion layers etc.) and the regulated gas cylinders and associated pipework/values. These parts need regular maintainence and periodic replacement, and some of these parts don't come cheap.

[@royh6526]

@@GruffSillyGoat "do Toyota provide maintenance packages for the life of the car " Does anybody? I don't know for sure, but would bet they do not. At some point the tanks will be declared past their design life (20 years?) and it will not be legal to re-fill.

[@joewoodchuck3824]

Where does one find a hydrogen filling station? EV chargers are rare, and hydrogen is even less common.

[@Szarko32c]

The car is fine, but there is no where to Refill, couse there isn't enought cars...

[@ArthurX-eg8bc]

We have not evolved enough in our thinking to appreciate how much different hydrogen cars are from gasoline cars. We also have a poor perspective as to what gasoline cars are. Electric vehicles carry their compromises upfront, and there are sectors of society who can operate within those limitations.

[@chadkelley4267]

He says imagine if fuel costs went up by 200 300%. I dont have to imagine they DID jump by that. So lack of reliable fueling stations is the issue when you are buying leading edge tech you shiuld understand that its still new and not much support. Same with any other new technologies . Did Toyota mislead new buyer about the support currently in place not for me to decide. The actual tech is solid.

[@DwightTrimble]

Electric cars suck too BTW. I live in Canada and batteries SUCK here. Heading out on a road trip in 6 days. And I'm happy to say, I'll be able to make the 900 km drive without having to stop for hours to recharge half way. I'll enjoy driving by the lines of EVs waiting their turn with the owners sitting in the shade of their vehicles while waiting there turn.

[@NiekNooijens]

In my EV 900km would mean 2 charge stops of 20 minutes. (400km range at 100% and then charge 300km of range twice) assuming 100km/h. Instead of 9 hours my trip takes 9h and 50 minutes. Except that even in an ICE car. You still need to stop for food and toilet breaks. In that time you can charge. It's perfectly doable with batteries!

[@DwightTrimble]

@@NiekNooijens sure... For the 4 or five years the batteries last here in Canada where we get +32 C in the summer and -40 C in the winter. Lemme know what your resale value is one your batteries are shot. I was almost convinced they were a good idea, until I looked more deeply into it. Also, wait till a few houses and apartment complexes burn down when a few of those cars spontaneously combust.

[@DwightTrimble]

@@NiekNooijens Plus, I'm calling BULLSHIT on the 20 minute charge time.

[@thyristo]

Efficiency comparison list: - Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Cars: 20-30% - Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs): - On gasoline mode: 20-30% - On electric mode: 70-80% - Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs): 70-80% - Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles (FCVs): - Electrolysis to fuel cell to wheel: 25-30% - Steam methane reforming (SMR) to fuel cell to wheel: 35-40% - Hydrogen Combustion Engines: 25-30%

[@FLPhotoCatcher]

Actually, EVs are more efficient than 70-80% - they are 87% to 91% efficient if you factor in the regen braking. And since that is real-world efficiency, that's the number I use.

[@sergiomomesso1590]

@@FLPhotoCatcher I think he show only 70-80% because people who was or are pro Hydrogene liked to say EV are not efficiency because they had loose on electrical grid and other argument Like charger, ect... This said, you add only like 10% from regen. I must say this percentage must vary greatly on many factors. In my case with my EV and with my day to day driving. My statistic shown 1/4 to 1/3 energy used come from my regenating braking. This for in my case, 1/4 city, the rest is little hilly 90 km/h road. To say how much regen energy I save with my regen, more like 25% to 33% in my case. 😁

[@thyristo]

​@@FLPhotoCatcher...yeah...but go with the lowest value possible because even that shows how ridiculous the other options are... especially when the antiBEV cult finds out that BEVs are even more efficient than promised. Always fun to undersell what in fact is way superior.

[@peterjackson2625]

I still don't want one.

[@thyristo]

​@@peterjackson2625Then don't get one.

[@peterjackson2625]

Very good report. Just what I suspected from the outset that hydrogen is totally impractical. I am not surprised either, that most of the commercial hydrogen.is extracted from hydrocarbon fuel..

[@davidkendall2272]

Can't believe Toyota "Miara" is the Car of record for 2024 Paris Olympics. Toyota should be ashamed of themselves for foisting this loser and confusing the masses on Hydrogen as a fuel source for transportation. Thanks Sam for your continued responsible reporting on issues like this. Love your channel! Hydrogen is dangerous and very expensive to fuel cars, as documented by Bjorn Nyland (Norway Utuber) and you, as well as many others. Quick search shows it costs 14X more to fuel hydrogen car than a Tesla M3 in California.

[@wombatillo]

Hydrogen as a small vehicle transportation fuel was retarded to begin with. A lot of people (who obviously don't own a hydrogen vehicle) are still going on and on about how EVs will never work and hydrogen is the future. Like... what?

[@jackcockel4425]

When the hydrogen infrastructure catches up it be the dominant fuel source for the automotive industry

[@kimmurphy1683]

Sorry, these owners are whiney and completely out of touch to have bought them in the first place. Sorry. They deserve nothing for having fallen for Toyota's BS.

[@Skeptic236]

In Australia there was a TV advertising campaign for the Mirai, aided and abetted by MSM news item including some security business which sang praises. Alas the MSM was so beholden to Toyota sponsorship they neglected to mention the many limitations. Nothing bad occurs in isolation.

[@malcolmrickarby2313]

At first I thought that you meant,beholden too , but looking at it again B holed too might clarify the situation better.😮😅😂

[@l.ls.8890]

I would not ride in a hydrogen car. What if you got into an accident with another car that caught on fire and you were unable to get out quickly. Would your Hydrogen car explode?

[@salvadorcoling7824]

Is there someone in the Toyoda Family knows mathematics? Perhaps they don’t know how to calculate efficiency of fuel consumption. It’s a shame for the people of Japan that their business leaders are very poor in science and technology.

[@allelectric1330]

Get out of the electric car market ... while you can. Government is in the middle rethinking the whole EV issue because of economical and environmental worries of toxic Lithium batteries. . People are demanding that Lithium and Lithium batteries not be stored in their towns and city's or any populated areas because of the dangers of Toxic gases

[@beehappy7797]

You are the toxic.

[@kurniawanwidisusanto3619]

Environmental my a$$ Its an excuse from west because their auto industry lose to china EV, and west doesnt have the resource for batteries Nice try but stupid indeed

[@Hunty49]

Insurance companies are starting to not insure EV's. And they are asking questions about should EV charging be allowed in underground car parks or enclosed car parks.

[@shyviking]

Norway and China: What...?!

[@mikeselectricstuff]

Could be a bargain as a base to convert it to a full EV

[@freedom8480]

Every used EV for 10k still better than a new mirai😂😂😂

[@markmiller8903]

No EV is worth $10k.

[@Aarav_Vispute]

Yep every car is better than a new mirai especially teslas and EV 😂😂😂

[@freedom8480]

@@markmiller8903 it is the cost to buy one. They are worth much more😁

[@Leafbinder]

How long before they pay us to Take them? N/M i dont need another Yard Ornament. Have a great weekend Sam. and yeah im currently driving a toyato but will have a model S soon hopefully.

[@The-Logic-Wizard]

Its literally a fuel distribution problem. Should try the tech in a small country first with a need for few stations. Luxembourg maybe

[@leekingtak]

Toyota will continue to con more people over its hydrogen cars in the coming 2024 Paris Olympics. It spends huge amount of money for Mirai to be declared the official car for Paris Olympics. Toyota will supply 500 Mirai as official cars there.

[@s.vortex]

Anyone with middle school level understanding of physics and chemistry probably wouldn't buy hydrogen cars.

[@glennshimamoto9922]

Have you changed your mic/audio set up? Quality, particularly high end, seems to have gone down from earlier videos making it more difficult to understand your speech.

[@christopherg2347]

Hydrogen is just a terrible energy storage medium. Always has been. Will still be, even with renewables.