I can't keep up with the group!

[@johnjuzbasich706]

Sometimes it is even simpler. Your video assumes a meetup/group-paddle with paddlers of a similar boat type & paddler. I've regularly been paddling with groups who have sit-on-top fishing kayaks 12' long, a recreational kayak, a 16' sea kayak and my own 17'7" Greenlander. Even the discrepancy between a 16' and 18' boat over the course of a long day can exhaust a 16'er compared to a comfortable dull ache of a long paddle. Boat design, specifically length and beam, affects speed. When I'm in a group of mixed boats such as that, I typically volunteer to be "sweep" as you suggested in the video. I can relax, and the group dynamic has a collective safe feeling knowing the fastest kayak can 'run-down' and assist if a problem arises.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, a number of people have mentioned this, I had to make some assumptions in terms of giving viewers a fix, besides buying a new kayak. I would also add, even if you can keep up, it doesn't mean your stroke couldn't use some help and you could be working less and going faster - and I am speaking to the collective "you".... Not YOU!

[@Simon_W74]

We tend to spit the group up into smaller groups, so those of us that paddle quicker can go on head, then after a while we will then hold up and wait for the slower groups to catch us up. This can be down to mixed craft being used from SUPs Touring boats. We often have mixed craft on club day trips, each craft used will have a coach with them. I am naturally a fast paddler compared to most in my club due to my size and strength, So If I get ahead I will either wait or slow right down till other catch me up. If we are going to be getting out I will often paddle off to find a suitable spot and go and let other no and then get out to the then help others get out as we have some that are not comfortable in getting out. I then do the reverse. Only once had someone tried to help me land, by pulling my boat up a ramp and they said never again, as they didn't realise how much I actually weigh. We do see with our new paddlers it is mainly forward stroke and the mechanics behind it the slows them down along with the trouble you have when new to keeping in a straight line, boat fill will definitely be in the mix too. We are taught to adjust the foot pegs, but very few will adjust the seat if it had the ability to raise the front of the seat to support the legs. or the back band so that your sitting comfortably in the seat without having to use it for support. then there is hip pads if they are part of the outfitting. These are all things that I have gone through to make my boat as comfortable as possible for me, but when your trying to get a group of new paddlers on the water they get overlooked. I still need to do this with my new boat as the seat is very different to my other boat. No seat adjustment for it to support my legs, so they went to sleep on its maiden trip. so the hip pads were stripped of the foam wedge and that was put under the seat cover. which then made the back of the seat uncomfortable when it was fine before. Need decent weather to help me dial it in. This time it will not take me as long as last time to get finessed. It is videos like yours that help fill in the gaps that sadly get overlooked. It could also be down to how my injuries and arthritis affect me that I am more aware of or, in need of dialing in then others . If I ever decide to go down the coaching route and my Club I will pass on information like that. I have with my own family that have recently taken up paddling this year. So far I have 6 members of my own family that have got into kayaking. My Sister and my two older Great Nephews were at another club and will be joining me at my club as the standard of coaching from what they have said is pretty poor. They were just left to get on with it, not advice of tips, so when I paddled with them the first time I ended up teaching them about pushing the paddle, core rotation using the footpegs to drive off of, couldn't set the boats up for them as they only had two at the time and they were in rotation and being a family all mixed sized. so would just do the footpegs.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, there are a lot of factors. I guess my point was, as leaders, we need to make sure newer, slower paddlers need to not be discouraged and helped to get “faster”

[@kenwebster5053]

OK, good video, that mentions almost all the basic points of endurance paddling, without fully explaining any. I guess you leave that to more detailed tutorials or to your books. Without going into wing paddling techniques, two things I would add: 1. Paddle rating. Keeping the power blade as close to the side of the boat as possible, to maximize drive force efficiency. This is a difficult one because it requires that the forward going blade is held high & most people tend to drift into a less efficient low paddle stroke as they tire. Also the high blade can catch a cross wind unsettling the paddlers balance, especially unnerving for beginners. As with most things, there are pros and cons. The high paddling style is the most efficient but least stable, so much so that when I see a paddler reverting to a low style without weather conditions demanding it. I know that is a defeated & demoralized paddler & the group needs to rest them. 2. Breathing rhythm. Try to exhale on every power stroke (both sides), because exhale allows the body to most efficiently release & enhance force & power. However, when you lift a blade from the water, just do a short pause & let the boat glide while you inhale. This pause also allows the paddler to relax all the muscles, release tension, oxygenate the blood and be setup the next power stroke. It's enough recovery time to allow a paddler to keep going for hours on end without stopping. Teamwork: on a group paddle, you can try to get the freshest & fittest paddlers to lead another boat. Go at an appropriate steady speed but get the weaker paddler to keep their bow close a stern quarter of the stronger paddlers boat. That will give the weaker paddler some wake wave assist from the lead boat. With just a little practice, they will develop a feel when they are in the right spot.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah I have written several books and done many videos on specifics of technique. I was covering broad ideas here. However, the specifics you are talking about 1. A high angle with the blade very close to the boat, 2. Breathing rhythm, and 3. Teamwork, are great for racing and a more aggressive style. Long distance touring - which I teach - is a low angle style, that is far less aggressive. There is nothing wrong with what you are saying but different than kayak touring.

[@georgerawley8006]

Excellent job on explaining what problems could be, I'm do not a paddle at this time so just filling up on information. Enjoy reading comments and reading your comments

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for watching!

[@NickSchade]

One of the most prevalent paddling technique errors that significantly impacts speed is the failure to fully submerge the blade. Even with otherwise atrocious body mechanics, if you submerge the blade and make it move backward along the boat, the kayak will move forward. Conversely, excellent technique with rotation etc., but with just the tip of the blade in the water, results in slow forward motion. Physical strength and stamina can compensate for poor technique. It’s not uncommon to observe skilled paddlers with excellent technique, including deep blade planting, who begin tip-dipping as fatigue sets in. A powerful forward stroke that moves you quickly through the water needs strength and stamina that most new paddlers lack and may diminish after a long day on the water, even for kayakers with generally good paddling fitness. Reducing the blade area by not fully submerging it significantly alleviates the load on your shoulders and the rest of your body, providing relief when you’re tired or less fit. Paddlers unconsciously adjust their stroke to reduce the blade area in the water as they tire, seeking this relief. Powering up the blade at the catch when it’s not fully submerged has other detrimental effects beyond reducing the apparent blade size. It reduces the pressure at the water’s surface on the back side (non-power face) of the blade, causing air to be drawn down the blade and into the water. This ventilation (often incorrectly referred to as “cavitation”) greatly reduces the efficiency of the paddle stroke. The result of incomplete blade burial is burning energy, splashing water instead of moving the kayak forward, which slows progress and further tires the paddler.

[@AdventureOtaku]

You’re totally right!

[@DwightFitzmorris]

Hi Brett, It took me a full 2 weeks to get into the rhythm of co-ordinating my paddle push, my foot pedal push and torso rotation into a somewhat smooth motion. I continue to improve in small increments everytime I paddle. I am now able to follow most paddlers with SOME reserve power for those situations where it is needed. As always... I enjoyed this episode. Nova Scotia Dwight.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, brother. It is all about efficiency.

[@davidpaulcarlson8763]

Helpful! Thank you!

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks for the watching!

[@marycrawford9428]

Some day I’m going to have to go out with a group, just to see if I can keep up 😊. There are rare occasions I go out with a friend, where I feel like I’m going too slow. Pretty sure that’s a head problem though, not an actual speed problem. Most of the time I solo because that’s what I like best. Low risk lakes in decent weather. Added fun if a storm blows in. Groups need good leaders, and not that many people are taught leadership skills. 10% of people are natural leaders, 80% can lead well if they are taught the skills. I would normally put the slowest person in #2 spot, directing experienced first person to set a comfortable pace and check often to ensure they are not going too fast.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Your re so right, about the “not taught good leadership” and I have even had smart people tell me you cant teach leadership to which my response is…”NOLS, and West Point, And Annapolis might disagree with you.”

[@marycrawford9428]

I work with a program that teaches leadership skills.

[@sandrablackwell2929]

Our club often splits in to a faster group and a slower group. Someone is always designated as sweep. I often take that roll...I have only regretted it twice. We had two people come out, who used a club outing as a date. They spent the whole time chatting rather than paddling. It was painful. BUT, usually when I am sweep I am talking with the slower paddling, offering tips if they are up for it (I always as if I can make some suggestions before jumping in).

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, NOLS will often do a point boat and a sweep boat. When I worked for REI there was usually only one instructor so we had to play mothership….

[@beingaware8542]

Longtime paddler here. Anytime I stop paddling to do something, take a picture, eat one bite of an energy bar, take a swig of water, the group will pull ahead, and then I have to then paddle twice as hard for a very long time to catch up, without pausing. This is a pretty common issue with me and groups. Don't fiddle around, you will be behind surprisingly quickly.

[@AdventureOtaku]

This is true, but it is the reason that groups should take scheduled breaks or active leadership should slow the group when someone drops behind!

[@kevinDowney-s4c]

What is your oppinion on greenland paddles I have started using them and love them , Love your channel

[@AdventureOtaku]

I get this question every three or four months. Not a fan. Nothing wrong with them, I just don’t like them.

[@yru435]

Borrow one, rent one, or if you have to make or buy one. Get feedback and information from someone who knows the Greenland paddling technique and understands the paddles (this guy, Brett, does not).

[@AdventureOtaku]

I understand them. I don’t like them - and I have coaches who use them who have taught me to use them. I have never said anyone shouldn't use them, they just aren't for me.

[@HopeCreekConnemara]

Also I think over the duration of the trip, as people paddling with only their upper body and mostly pulling and not understanding pushing yet, they tend to get slower and more tired whereas everybody else does not. Which makes it harder.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Oh absolutely. Ive seen big strong guys keep up for days, and finally run out of steam.

[@KarenOrders]

Another "not your fault" thing is also the max speed of the boat. A longer thinner boat would be faster than a wider shorter boat. i have a Virgo HV which is only 15ft long and the length of the waterline will determine a max speed. Also being an HV makes it wider and therefore not as fast either. Most people i paddle with have 17" narrow composite boats which i believe are inherently faster.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Absolutely, longer narrower will be faster. Without a doubt. But in reality, lousy strokes have a bigger impact than boats. Fifteen foot and wide vs 17 and narrow is a big difference but two 17 foot boats, one wide and one narrow the paddler is the biggest difference. Not that width isn’t a factor but its less of a factor.

[@KarenOrders]

@@AdventureOtaku

[@gadgetman_nz4092]

I always had the opposite problem, the instructors had trouble keeping up with me. One time we were playing kayak candlestick. One instructor came after me and waned, the second came and waned, the third, ... then they gave up. I was paddling backwards so I could keep an eye on them.

[@AdventureOtaku]

I guess that’s a good problem to have?

[@roastawk]

Here I am again! Let’s see what I can do to keep up!

[@AdventureOtaku]

You're doing great!

[@kayak_homie]

Can we get that forward stroke book on Kofi plz?

[@AdventureOtaku]

That is actually a good idea.... I'll work on that. thanks.

[@kayak_homie]

@AdventureOtaku thanks. I don't have apple products, so if you don't have it on Amazon or Kofi, I can't buy it, and to be honest I hate Amazon for destroying commerce, so I prefer Kofi :)

[@AdventureOtaku]

I prefer Kofi too! which is why I pulled my E books from Amazon. Amazon takes a 70% cut! AND charges a "delivery fee" based on file size. I never thought of it because that book is kind of an after thought for me, I have looked at it in a while, and I suspect everything in it is in the simple guide.... and if you read this, email me BrettATadventureotaku.com and ill send you a PDF of Forward. Happily.

[@tehbieber]

"I don't have a camera mounted below the deck today," idk, kinda sounds like what you'd say if you didn't want us to know you're out paddling with a dry top and bare legs in December :p

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, that’s exactly it! You figured me out!

[@JonPaddles]

Anyone who thinks their forward stroke is perfect is only lying to themself.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, I’ve been paddling for 30 years and teaching for 20. Half the time I see video of myself paddling I don’t like what I see.

[@johnlopez5373]

Good ideo and a topic not readily covered. As much as I'd like to paddle with a group, my issue with keeping up is not so much technical although I would benefit with your instruction. My issue is more mental. I enjoy taking my time to concentrate on what is before me and to meander and explore coves or tidal inlets and creeks. Essentially I like to go where my curiosity takes me. I like the peace an serenity of being on the water and find I can't think and contemplate on what I'm seeing in a group. I acquaint it to strolling through a museum with someone who is moving ahead at a faster pace than me. It detracts from my ability to think and appreciate what I'm seeing. The chemistry with a paddle partner must be complete and they must compliment each other. If not the full experience is lost. That's why I find it hard to paddle with a group as much as I'd like to. Sharing paddling with someone or a group of like minded people must be fun but It's not as enjoyable as paddling by myself with a partner who enjoys a slow pace that allows for contemplation and exploration. Of course, paddling in a group when I'm on vacation is wonderful as I'm unfamiliar with the area and appreciate the guided tour and the information tour leaders provide. To paraphrase Henry David Thoreau, a kayak is a most advantageous place in which to contemplate this world.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Im the same way, and what it means is, when I am paddling with a group I need to make a conscious choice to “paddle differently” if you know what I mean.

[@johnlopez5373]

@AdventureOtaku yes I know what you mean which is why I paddle differently when I'm in a group. I go with the group.

[@aubreyweber6547]

Agreed - making sure everyone has the same goals is key to a good group paddle. With my regular paddle friends we talk about we want to get out of the paddle before we go so everyone’s expectations are in line.