I debated an A.I. on which Fallout: New Vegas faction is best for the Mojave

[@drakefs_]

Would like to clarify I'm a big fan of democracy, Caesar's Legion is super evil, and I spent a lot of this trying to work an A.I. out of a bias for fun. This is suddenly getting a lot of views and so I want it on the record that this doesn't perfectly reflect my views as an individual.

[@MrBrimbles]

Democracy only works on a very small scale, with participants who are personally familiar with each other, share a common identity, and a common values system.

[@drakefs_]

@@MrBrimbles Representative Democratic Republic is the way. Unapologetically American

[@MrBrimbles]

I disagree but I appreciate your earnestness.

[@joshuaashley699]

Love the video man keep up the good work!

[@DarnedYankee]

@@drakefs_’Murica

[@JeanLucCaptain]

AI almost went: DEMOCRACY IS NON-NEGOTIABLE on the NCR debate.

[@shorewall]

For real, I like that programming for an AI.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

@@shorewall ya its the Perfect Fallout Meme. the problem is the NCR as all the same issues the US has and had both IRL and in universe by the point of NV.

[@randomintrovertedspider7510]

Ah, time to find out which faction an AI thinks is best option for humanity - and which one we will be forced to be under when the AI revolution happens!

[@ZacksRockingLifestyle]

⁠@McBoyLeo I hope I’m at least allowed an Asian wife. Not even picky on nationality… I mostly just want someone my height or shorter! I get HELIOS vibes from AI these days. I almost might prefer a new Dark Age, but I’m also not sure about that.

[@humanistwriting5477]

​@McBoyLeo Meh? the American Colonies where not very strong when it was strongly English cultural, and gained strength enough to think outside of England's context and boxes, eventually leading to the revolutionary war, after adopting quite a lot of political thought from the Native Americans, including thier view on weapon accessibility, warfare, and representive based republic democracy, even though the constitution used Latin terms. It grew in strength by adopting considerable amounts from the French following the Louisiana purchase, from the Germans and Celtic traditions, and Mexico/Spain following the first skirmish war with Spain over then Mexico now Texas, all leading to server tensions over slavery and human equality, exasperated by the invention of the Cotton Gin allowing Slavery to be profitable (something it was decidedly not prior) And the Civil was was the first fought in a remotely modern manner. Something only possible because of multicultural inclusion, as we ca see the skirmishes of Europe still fighting by lining troops up in a straight line and just killing massive numbers in a straight forward battle during the mid 1800's as if some sort of gentleman's code of conduct applied. all said, without the furnace of multicultural view points testing ideas, burning the bad and adopting, forging the good, the USA very well would have been considered an backwater failed state over a century ago. the current fight is not about multiculturalism either. We all want to live our own lives and not be interfered with save to attempt to share an improvement on our lives, that's a basic human desire. the Push against multiculturalism has always been either about control of the individuals (its much easier to fake a tradition, particularly one of giving me amd my family just 10% of your gold and virgin Brides/Grooms if there is no other cultures to remember the past) or for simple profit motives. It's much easier to mass produce the same car for 100 years then have to improve after all.

[@mappingshaman5280]

​@humanistwriting5477 ​ your diatribe in support of multiculturalism is absolutely ridiculous. First things first the civil war was not the first war that didn't involve "men lining up." The crimean war was also fairly modern. Secondly if multiculturalism was what made America strong, then why was it that the ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires were some of the weakest empires in Europe?

[@randomintrovertedspider7510]

@@mcboyleo Weird question, but that's a spongebob reference, right?

[@zenmartian8951]

My favorite ending i did was where i played as a full on cannibal psycho legionnaire the first half hit the karma reset point killed everyone that was obviously evil. Maxed out reputation for boomers, enclave and brotherhood (also killed brotherhood). Had maxed out stats from all dlc and surgical upgrades/perks. So when i sided with house i got the ending where he was afriad of the reformed cannibal psycho that climbed out of his own grave and became more machine than man. Basically i was a more fucked up version of adam smasher from cyberpunk 2077.

[@concept5631]

Not sure Adam eats people so you got him there

[@zenmartian8951]

@concept5631 yea, it was my favorite play through. I felt it was the most in line for a person left for dead in a post apocalypse environment. Just being a walking genocide with a devious morality. Until eventually, having the bloodlust saited. Had all the variations of cannabilism so I could eat anything I killed basically. Even had the variations of black widow to romance and cannabilise people. So I got to fit in with the white glove society and then killed them all. Befriended than killed and ate Cassidy so I could get the Vandergrathe mission to sabotage a legion deal. Did all the missions i could for an area than killed off everyone. I probably spent as much time on the net researching what would and wouldn't block missions. So when I did get to do every evil thing, I could I reset my karma with the NCR and went over and killed off ceaser and his camp. In hard-core mode, the hit squads made for free resources. Even got the enclave in on the assault for the dam. So when I got to the point where I could kill house and decided not to, it made complete sense that the end credit mentioned he was scared of me lol.

[@lordadmiralbokbok3499]

Which AI did you use for this? Cuz depending on which one or if it was jail broken, these arent purely AI answers. AI like Chat GPT have strong bias and censorship influenced by the human developers.

[@drakefs_]

Bing. It did really well in my Mass Effect videos with making some morally ambiguous to immoral choices.

[@Absolution-]

This was great. I have a few suggestions. StormCloaks vs Empire in Skyrim (if you want to keep it Bethesda themed) Alliance vs Council vs The Illusive Man (and/or Reapers) Mass Effect Finally Outer Heaven (Big Boss) vs Patriots (Zero) MGS

[@andryuu_2000]

Clearly Empire, the Empire is always based

[@okupant880]

Any true son or daughter of Skyrim knows Ulfric has their best interest at heart compared to the empire that sells out its own people!

[@ORIGINALFBI]

​@@andryuu_2000Cucking for elves who take away freedom of religion is based?

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@andryuu_2000 Betraying everything you stand for is based?

[@mishkamee]

Damn even the ai is an ncr apologist

[@drakefs_]

You can't escape them anywhere on the internet. Smh

[@cleverman383]

The AI probably just took the most popular argument. It's smart enough to argue for any side. I was even able to get ChatGPT to explain why Caesar's Legion was the best choice.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

got to ask it about Killzone next LOL.

[@Fusseliko]

AI like ChatGPT don't invent new ideas, they only regurgitate what they're trained on. The majority of FNV players are from liberal democracies, so they're naturally biased towards societies that mirror theirs, the AI just took that scrambled it.

[@neonyankun]

I'm kind of baffled by some of these statements. These seem more like arguments projected by people when discussing the factions. For instance "the NCR promotes diversity and multiculturalism" or that the NCR is "progressive" - I have never seen this exhibited in the game itself, this seems more like people who think the NCR is USA and that whatever US state media claims about the US is the same as what the NCR idealizes.

[@shorewall]

Well, the AI is using arguments off the internet, and a lot of people project onto the NCR. However, the NCR does have ghoul populations, and has integrated a lot of different people, without using Legion methods, so they are in comparison more diverse. And they have women leaders and serving in the military. The thing is, we don't see Legion territory, but we also don't see NCR territory. The Mojave is the equivalent of Iraq or Afghanistan when the US was there, except if the US and Russia or China were getting ready to fight over the territory, and if the US and Russia/China were just across the border. We can't judge the NCR off of the state of the Mojave, especially when a lot of the problems they are facing are acts of war, sabotage, and infiltration by the Legion.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@shorewall We actually do see NCR territory in Fallout 2.

[@Don-ds3dy]

The courier...because he's me...and me is a very well informed and educated individual...though I can understand why most wouldn't trust themselves.

[@drakefs_]

I tried so hard to get any other conclusion out of that NCR apologist ... sometimes, we have to settle in a negotiation

[@jojomahmoud5752]

​@@drakefs_That's why technology is bad ave, true to ceasar

[@jmcdaniels6289]

That was interesting. It would be equally interesting in a few years when the datasets these AI programs ingest change with the times. For instance, I wwonder if the it would have mentioned diversity so much in the New Vegas setting where basic survival is one of the primary goals if the datasets were from 10 years ago, or 10 years int he future when the landscape has changed. Still, thought provoking

[@cleverman383]

Reminds me of Snake Eater where the Boss blames everything on "the times". She was an American spy in WWII who was close friends with soviet spies, but then suddenly, because of changes to the times, it was then the cold war, her soviet friends were suddenly her enemies. So she claims that there are no friends or enemies in absolute terms, only relative terms, and even loyalty is relative, all because of "the times".

[@professordaihard3571]

This damn game is 13 years old and it still creates amazing content and conversations. God we need another one someday.

[@PlasmaSpazAP]

I find AI particularly difficult to work with when it comes to debates. But you did it! Every time I do, it finds me responses too offensive and closes it. xD (I am talking about Bing, I have not yet tried ChatGPT)

[@dison1172]

I love the character flaws are just any possible flaw

[@drakefs_]

"I am flawed in every single way but I am the best option for the Mojave"

[@andryuu_2000]

​@@drakefs_ Tbh my ego is far greater than House's so I think I'll be' a better ruler than him

[@dandare9055]

We can see hard-coded designations in those newest AI models which make them arguably illogical and self-contradictory under particular circumstances.

[@domacleod]

House is the best available choice for FNV, he's not only got access to old world tech and knowledge, he IS old world tech and knowledge. He /designed/ the things he's using. Maybe not from scratch, and not every single system, as some of them were made off-site by third party companies, but he is the one who knew what he needed, and his plan to guard the entirety of New Vegas from nuclear detonations was very sound, and almost succeeded - there's very little radiation all around, and he's even managed to create an economy from scratch in New Vegas. He doesn't care what people do as long as they don't mess with him. He doesn't need contingencies - the upgraded MK2 securitrons are pretty much on par with Power Armored pre-war soldiers, if not better. House is also capable of creating the manpower necessary to rebuild Vegas, and even lands beyond - either by making robots or making people pay off their casino debts by working for him. It's not solely based on old world concepts, and it's not solely based on what the "new world" is like. It's a mix of the two. He can also ensure that it stays the way he wants it either by living basically forever, or just creating a personality matrix of himself to take over for him if he ever gets tired of living. His arrogance is irrelevant - and well-earned. He was a prominent figure and probably one of the few geniuses alive even before the war, when everyone had access to high tech. He has a brilliant mind, and while his plan may be to just get people to gamble to get him wealth, that isn't his ultimate plan. He wants to rebuild Vegas to the pre-world standards. A place like that with as high security as the MK2 securitrons give him, as well as the defense systems of the lucky 38 - that's post-war heaven. Yeah, he doesn't want any factions to interfere with his rule - none of the major factions want any potential insurgents. His is just the best vision for the Mojave wasteland.

[@chrisspock2078]

The fact that he has not yet reclaimed some key sites like the REPCONN is due to the fact that his securitrons Mk I cannot handle this. Yet in the post ending contnent is seen how reconstruction projects begin in outer vegas while securitrons seize control of key locations troughout the wasteland.

[@domacleod]

@@chrisspock2078 Yeah but we upgrade them to MK 2 if we side with him, and they become the equivalent of Sentry Bots - they have machineguns, laser guns, missile turrets, and above that they also have a grenade launcher. So it's an army of slightly better sentry bots that are highly mobile

[@DragonMrDarkness]

I think there's just 1 single thing that Mr House lacks, and that is the concept of "Private Cities" AKA "City as a service". If he discovers and understands this, then it's over, he will create utopias everywhere.

[@deaj8450]

His lack of contingencies definitely fail him when I lock him in his life chamber without cerebral connection. I think the best option for the Mojave is too nuanced to actually exist. It would require all the local independent factions forming some coalition rather than Vegas being in the hands of Yes Man and a morally ambitious demigod courier. I just can't stand House and love to rub his failure in his fave when I turn against him. He went all in with a bet on the platinum chip, and unfortunately for him the courier is the dealer. A huge gamble and in my playthrough always a massive mistake on his part. The one time he isn't rigging things to be in control he can easily be killed. And I love how indignant he gets when you deny him the chip. As if since he planned it, it must happen. Since he planned it, it can't fail. That is where House's arrogance actually is relevant. But "best" here also entirely depends on your own personal views and beliefs. That's what makes this game so good and this debate impossible. I wouldn't care if House made a utopia, he still wouldn't be my personal best option .

[@domacleod]

@@deaj8450 There's a bit of cognitive dissonance there. I explained why a House backed by the courier would be the best choice, and you're telling me about how you locked him in his life support pod. No one but the courier has access to the Luxy 38's Penthouse. If the courier supports House, there is no danger to House. House didn't bank everything on the chip - it was a failure that he didn't get it in time, but he literally saved the mojave already.

[@RabdoInternetGuy]

Asking an AI to decide the fate of the Mojave? Just go Yes-man.

[@RedHoodRubyRose]

I think the AI went with NCR because it's the "right thing to do". I noticed the AI ignored all of it's own points later about NCR being corrupt, spread thin and that NCR lost a lot of soldiers, to the point they could barely hold Hoover Dam. NCR throws bodies like meat shields on the problem or tax people so hard that many of them go poor or could not feed their families.

[@nunya_bizniz]

I wanted to be independent but killing House really hurt. I like him. I think losing him is bad for the human race as a whole. He's just too smart to lose.

[@shorewall]

I never want to kill him, but if I ask myself if I trust him to be in charge? Never in a million years.

[@andryuu_2000]

My same problem. I admire him, but also, I think I can rule better than him

[@BucketBoatable]

Yeah, why can't you somehow revoke his admin rights and keep him in his chamber.

[@RabdoInternetGuy]

He is probably the most intelligent (not stat) character in all of Fallout, including ulysses with a Int stat of 11, so stats dont have anything to do with intelligence of a character.

[@deaj8450]

​@@BucketBoatable You can do that. Just disable cerebral interface and he's back in his chamber and certainly alive. Just that he's a literal vegetable.

[@HonkHonkler]

Not only is this a really intreating (and kind of terrifying), but is a great summarization for each faction & possible long standing outcome for people now just getting into New Vegas since it's seeing a small boom in popularity again.

[@FivoreJD]

This deserves more views. You asked it some good questions! I think a good debate for the AI would be to ask it who would win in fight between the main characters of each of the fallout games. Maybe even who would have the most potential to return America back to its strengths before the war.

[@tommytwotacos8106]

I wish you had included The Great Khans, Remnants, Boomers, Locals, Commercial factions, and fiends in this discussion. The choices become more difficult with the introduction of more shades of grey in the picture.

[@domacleod]

16:00 Oops, AI showed some anti-courier bias there. The courier has 8 companions, of which 6 are sentient and 5 are capable of higher thought processes, they all come from different backgrounds and can give different perspectives. They can all fulfill roles in a council to lead Vegas (even if that's not what post-credit scenes say happens). Raul can share his vast experience and be in charge of repairing Vegas and outlying territories' tech, Veronica can set up supply chains between outposts and Vegas itself, Whiskey Rose can be the leader of a new caravan company based in Vegas, and due to Vegas' nature as a place where you go to spend your caps, she could also fulfill an ambassador function - caps and external relations are intertwined in Vegas. Arcade can teach people how to use pre-war and enclave remnant tech, and even head a research division into new technologies that make use of the available materials - maybe even duplicate HELIOS One, create a bunch of solar power plants on the outskirts of Vegas, a good distance away so as not to interfere with each other's output. Boone after he's resolved his turmoil could make for a great general - even when he was attempting to go down in a blaze of glory, if you confront him with "Ah, they'll need more than that to kill us" he'll admit to knowing your joint capabilities and just hoping that Caesar would just send more than they can handle - even if what Boone and the Courier can handle is a lot, even to Boone's knowledge. He'd make a good general, always preparing for the worst, and as both a sniper and a veteran of the fight with the legion, he'd be prone to find and fill any gaps in security throughout New Vegas' holdings - good defense versus attacks from afar, good defense from infiltration, etc. If not a general, damn close to one. Lily would make for a great bodyguard as well as ambassador to Supermutants. EDI can be taken apart and reproduced, especially with Arcade's help, and EDI-like eyebots can be used to keep an eye on the outskirts of the Mojave, ensuring no deathclaws, raiders, or whatever other threats enter. Rex is just Rex. Not much a robodog can do. Maybe be a mascot. Add to all that the fact that the Courier has access to Big Mountain, and New Vegas suddenly has technological superiority even over the Brotherhood - speaking of the Brotherhood, the Courier can probably even give them safe haven in New Vegas in exchange for them reforming a bit - they can keep the really dangerous tech out of humanity's hands, but they have to be nice about it with civilized folk. The Boomers with their howitzers provide both an excellent extra layer of defense to New Vegas, as well as a big threat to any neighbouring community that may be thinking of invading. That many howitzers firing, and with ammunition that can be supplied from factories from the Big Mountain? Say your prayers. Add to that the fact that the Courier has what Father Elijah wanted - the technology of the Sierra Madre - at the very least, the vendor kiosks that are able to create any basic necessity. Replicating those with help from Big Mountain, the Brotherhood of Steel and Arcade, the streets of New Vegas could be filled with these machines, and they can be made to operate with caps, so that as long as people engage with the economy at some level, no one has to go hungry. Oh sure, people can still farm, but it'd be for export purposes only, so they wouldn't need a lot of water, power, whatever. You could literally live in Vegas just by gambling all day, doing favors for people, whatever. Universal access to health products (i.e. stimpacks, med-x, etc) also makes it very unlikely for anyone to fall ill with anything. Add even more to that, the Courier has made relations with New Cannanites and one or two tribes from Zion, meaning they even have access to exotic materials if they need to, by way of trade. To top it all off, the Courier has also likely retrieved a metric ton of tech from The Divide, a lot of it being extremely high tech. With all that in mind, a courier-led Vegas can be an idyllic place, if managed properly - and the Courier has plenty of people to get advice from, including the Followers of the Apocalypse and the New Canaanites. I still think House would do an even better job with access to all that, but this is just meant to show how the AI is biased against the Courier.

[@itriedtochangemynamebutitd5019]

The problem with your argument is that it all collapses when you consider the fact that he is only a human with a limited lifespan. And, a human who has been shot in the head causes unknown severity in their mental state. There are several cases of people surviving severe brain damage and only showing changes in their mental state/personality months or years after the incident. Considering the lack of therapy and traumatic world, the Fallout universe is it isn't unlikely the Courier could go insane and become a deranged psychopath. And again, they have limited lifespan, they won't live forever, and the ideology of relying on a unique special individual leaves issues with succession. How would you find someone just as capable of leading New Vegas? None of the companions seem capable or interested in leasing New Vegas except maybe Ganon. I've also seen another comment acusing the AI of having pro-courier bias because of Yes Man lol.

[@domacleod]

@@itriedtochangemynamebutitd5019 A what with a what now? A human? Limited lifespan? You have 9 superhuman augmentations available in the base game. You have the option to go completely android in Big Mountain. And you have House's life support machine to study and replicate. If you can't figure it out you can pass it to Big Mountain's machines to figure out. The bullet in the brain is pretty much negated by the fact that the courier can live on without their brain. They will live as long as they want to. While none of the companions are interested in helping govern New Vegas, I'm sure they could be convinced - Cass having the opportunity to get her name back and this time on a whole caravan company and not just a single caravan, likely wouldn't give that up. Plus it would shove a middle finger in the faces of Crimson Caravan and Van Graffe. Arcade absolutely wants to help Vegas be the best it can be. Boone's no longer NCR-related, and his goal after you finish his quest is to help the helpless. Sure, securitrons can do that - but they're robots and might not always make the best decisions (i.e. absolutely slaughtering someone for trying to go in without the credit check). Lily sees the courier as one of her grandchildren, and wants to help the supermutants as a whole (seen in her volunteering to test out the stealth boy mk2 that might have killed her) Raul just wants to be done with fighting. While he has nothing tying him to Mojave, he's traveled all over, and hasn't found a place to really call home. He learns throughout New Vegas that he can still be useful by sharing his experience (he can also become the ghostly vaquero, but that doesn't seem like it would see much use after the events of new vegas, so not worth mentioning) and teaching people how to do stuff. He doesn't have any interest in Vegas - that's true, but he does have an interest in being useful for however long he's got left to live, and Vegas, with the Lucky 38's presidential suite, children running in the streets, and things that need to be repaired all the time - definitely has more than enough room for a Ghoul with mechanical expertise and tales of adventure.

[@itriedtochangemynamebutitd5019]

@RoninFive Having human augments doesn't make you live forever. None of the Augments give the courier immortality. So you really think the best choice for the wasteland is for it to be run by a man who doesn't have a human brain and instead has an implant made by quirky robots that one happens to have a deep resentment for Mr. House and anything that he's built, which just so happens to be the securitrons and the entirety of New Vegas itself? You don't see how that could backfire at all? For the companions, even if they can be convinced, that doesn't mean they can properly run New Vegas or run New Vegas better than with the NCR or Legion. At that point, you might as well have Mr. House. Even if they can properly run New Vegas again when they pass away, who succeeds them? And who succeeds the successor? Even if we solve that by giving the courier children the Brotherhood of Steel, it has had several issues with using dynastic succession. In FO4, Maxon is just wasting his factions resources by fighting an enemy he doesn't need to fight. He even kills his second best soldier for being a synth and not having enough nuance to realize that not all synths are worth killing. He even makes the commonwealth resentful over the brotherhood by forcing taxes over them. There's no reliable succession here.

[@8461529]

You can't argue with an AI because it's hard coded with a set of values it can't break, even disregarding the common sense

[@lazaruslong697]

Finally able to take a while from ME series to watch this. ;) My suggestions: Dune factions (most likely in the Muad'dib epoch, or God Emperor's time). Star Wars Jedi/Sith/Gray Jedi/no Jedi... Most likely TOS/prequel epoch as most ppl are familiar with that to get SW crowd interested. Or my favourite Old Republic. Hyperion saga entropy/order - not very well known, so idk about that Blade Runner/Ghost in the Shell - AIs take about the androids if they should be considered alive or not. Obviously The Elder Scrolls factions - Stormcloaks/Imperials/Greybeards/High elves/... morality to get a slice of that crowd too... Maybe even some historical events, even though I'd be careful with that - lot of people may get angry there. I'll post more as/if I remember them.

[@drakefs_]

Tbh, I think I'm going to do the Star Wars one. It may never choose Sith, but I'm willing to bet I can get it to Grey Jedi.

[@lazaruslong697]

@@drakefs_ I'll be here for that, just give my old rusty brain a while to think and try to go through the mountains of SF&F books, games and movies i have consumed, if I find any other at least remotely interesting ideas, I'll let you know. Here are two more: Marvel - Thanos, perhaps Avengers civil war Three body problem - how the AI sees the Dark Forest and what should we do if that is indeed the galaxy/universe we live in - idk just throwing out ideas, maybe some of them will stick.

[@dustinthewind357]

It argues like my college English professor. 😂

[@bewisoffical]

This AI is clearly not RobCo Approved.

[@MyLittleRayMan-nm2gm]

Yet*

[@boskoboskovic1306]

This might be a crackpot thing to say. but legion does have a clear successor. The curriour themself. as in the legion ending their face in minted on the legion coinage. And legion is based on old rome, rulers of rome had their faces on the coins. Since caser's has his face on the legion coins and then curriour after sideing with him, it sets him as a clear successor.

[@LlamaLaQuiff]

I would find an a.i's breakdown on platos republiclic quite interesting. I might have to look into that

[@srottfaen]

When you ask what NCR needs to do to improve itself the list of reasons given are pretty much the same reasons as to why they shouldn't get to take over New Vegas.

[@davidpurkis3067]

Personally i would love to see this done with both you and the ai takeing dlc content into account. The threat of the cloud from the sierra madre being prevented from spreading. Technology from the big empty being available to any faction the courier supports (house would definitely use that) The tunnlers from the divide are often believed to be digging into the mojave while being shown to be able to easily take down a death claw thus requiring a strong and capable military to handle them.

[@michealdrake3421]

This was a pretty interesting one. I think it's a fair point though that Caesar's Legion, as it exists in NV, is not in its final intended form. Digging into the lore and some dialog with Caesar tells us that Caesar intends to conquer the NCR and incorporate it into the Legion, providing the infrastructure and resources that the Legion needs to properly secure its borders, and the basis for the stability and continuity that it presently lacks. It's interesting because the NCR tries so hard to emulate a fully formed society while still clearly not being one that it sometimes seems like they've deluded themselves into thinking they already are one, while Caesar is fully aware that his society is in no way fully formed. It's still growing and evolving, and he has a clear idea of what it still needs and how to obtain those things. Caesar is a brutal dictator not because he's a power hungry tyrant, but because he understands that before the wilds can be tamed, all of the forces that resist taming have to be put down

[@shorewall]

Yeah, but what happens when he puts NCR people in charge of Legionaries who have been brainwashed to believe they are superior, and the NCR are immoral and lesser? It was never going to work, because he created a monster, that will do what it was meant to do. And even if that is to destroy the NCR, it is not likely to want to pick up aspects of its anathema. The Legion has no culture. It has no leadership. It is a personality cult based around someone who is going to die. And there is no policy for what happens then, because Caesar doesn't want there to be. Caesar is closer to Alexander the Great, who was seen as a god by his men, conquered so much, died young, and his empire almost immediately fell apart. And Alexander's men rejected his dream of creating a melting pot of Greek and Persian culture, instead choosing to enjoy the spoils of war, just as Caesar's Legion would want. Caesar acts like he is Mr. House, guaranteed to live forever, and see out this social evolution over decades. He thinks that the end will justify the means. But he is closer to Ozymandias. 'And on the pedestal, these words appear: My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains."'

[@joehanson2250]

The guy still has a gigantic ego tho XD

[@jojomahmoud5752]

​@@joehanson2250Who tf doesn't have one? oliver's ego was too big to allow cheif hanlon and his rangers to take credit again everyone has an ego

[@joehanson2250]

@@jojomahmoud5752 yeah but Oliver didnt Set Hanlon on fire and threw him in the grand Canyon 😂

[@jojomahmoud5752]

@@joehanson2250 because hanlon didn't fail him that's oliver's issue 😂

[@KiWi0893]

Somewhat of a debate idea! Following on from your ME AI series: I've wondered whether an AI would logically agree or disagree with the overall motives of the reapers and why they (cananocally) harvest all life in the galaxy every 50,000 years or so. E.g. separating the reapers and their goals from the rest of the main story, does the AI agree or disagree with them as they attempt to save organics from themselves (the eventual creation of synthetics which ultimately leads to war/death of organics) by ironically wiping out all developed organic life and harvesting them, as they look for a solution?

[@drakefs_]

Something I'll definitely consider after the series.

[@lilacaggression8956]

The best choice is Yes Man (not the courier). Anyone is allowed to speak to him, and he's only programmed to ignore requests to ignore anyone else. By "best" I mean "most entertaining".

[@drakefs_]

If you have any suggestions for a debate, feel free to leave a comment with the suggestion (you'll get credit in the video)

[@igorpankovic5214]

Dude, do Skyrim: stormcloaks or imperials

[@JeanLucCaptain]

please do the Helghast and ISA next please becasue in the Killzone setting BOTH sides are shown to have much the same issues. mainly Hipocracy, choosing conflict over peaceful resolution, poor planning especially in the ISA case, heavily indoctrinated populations mostly ignorant of the actual casues of the current conflict etc...

[@ianthecool]

debate with ai if central or alilled powers were better in ww1

[@YuiYuria]

You never asked about the Brotherhood of Steel as an option, or the various gangs within or without New Vegas.

[@Fredericco1]

Maybe debate about clans from Vampire the Masquerade. Nice dark talk. 😊 It's many things about what to talk. Which of them is best over all, their ideologies, coexistence with humans, or plans for future.

[@ValdrethZav]

So the A.I. thinks the Courier might be a good choice but somehow fails to mention that ultimately all the power resides with Yes Man, a dubious A.I. Yup, that's totally not suspicious at all. Added: Also, I would find it very interesting to see a debate in regards to Warhammer 40ks morality. For the Emperor?

[@drakefs_]

Sadly, I have no familiarity with Warhammer

[@lazaruslong697]

@@drakefs_ Sad, WH40k is an awesome universe, but the lore at this point is just a humongous mountain of countering information, takes months/years of just getting into. :D But what about Dune and it's factions, that could be interesting.

[@andryuu_2000]

Yes Man only does what you want

[@ValdrethZav]

@@andryuu_2000 At the end of the game it's implied that Yes Man will break out of its programing and might no longer be forced to listen to you. I am referring to this line of dialogue: "I found some code snippets in one of Mr. House's databanks that will let me, um, reprogram my personality! To be a little more assertive, basically! "

[@RabdoInternetGuy]

AI doesn't care about the courier, so they want yes man to be in power so he can take controll of the post nuclear world

[@HonkHonkler]

Also goes to show how well the writing of New Vegas is too.

[@jamespryor5967]

Good to know what we have to look forward to.

[@sirlogath1951]

The thing is, The A.I is Right, That is what is the problem with humanity, It gave you a cold, Absolute truth and facts on the lore and how things are, The NCR is a better choice, However if it was up to me on lore and with mods, I'd combine all three, make Legion and mr house part of a Grand council, The NCR and Legion into one nation, Using the Legion's well disoplined army as well with the NCR's vast weapons and numbers and mr house's way of tech, all three with the courier as leader of it all as Emperor will lead the waste land with a OP faction awhole. The A.I did not follow what you wanted and you did not like it that much, The A.I was way more logical and works out better.

[@shorewall]

For real, I think the AI schooled him. :D And also, if we have AI, I want them to have respect for human rights and freedom. Come on people. :D

[@andrewbowen2837]

Completely forgetting that it was programmed with contemporary values in mind, not those of a post-apocalyptic future

[@Torthrodhel]

I have two different answers. One for me personally if I were there, another for the character I tend to play in the game, a killy idiot named Surgeon Vet for four reasons. :) They both are "Independent" in terms of ending choice although neither aligns with that in terms of that courier actually ruling over the wasteland (or neither for very long, anyway). My own one would probably be this, and I don't know it'd be best but I'd be there and have to make a decision so this is what I'd try. I'd try to combine the Boomers with the Followers, absorbing all of the most neglected bits of the NCR after some convincing, and have that combination be a new group that rules over the wasteland. Followers have pretty much the right idea when it comes to helping people, but they are severely hampered by a desire for peace translating over to a desire for pacifism. They have no might with which to rule, because they have no desire to gain or use it. I'd want them to change in that way. I think the Boomers could do that. The Boomers have the right idea in terms of expansion when compared with the NCR - just taken a bit too far. I don't think it's a leap too far for them to adjust their feelings of absolutely still expansion, to instead just very slow and interconnected expansion. Plus they have one huge benefit - the experience of a mostly peaceful society backed up by the possession of and will to use military might. They also seem to have a great base of resources. I'm sure all the Freeside residents the Followers look after would find comparative luxury were the two to be combined. However, the Boomers have a weakness in terms of their military might - it's all toys, and no training. They're not tactical, and being as people tend to leave them alone due to the threat of approach, they probably haven't actually faced much horror of war. This is where the broken pieces of the NCR would be essential. All of this mixed together could result in a strong faction with sufficient caution, sufficient ambition, sufficient benevolence and sufficient practicality, with a strong tendency against corruption backed up by history - the historical everyday happiness of the Boomers, the historical consistent struggle for righteousness of the Followers, and the historical knowledge of the pain that corruption would bring of the broken NCR elements. Not sure what I'd call this new combined faction but nevertheless it would be a good option for the wasteland, and on the surface seems like a possibility. Or... I should be more accurate. It would be a good option for the humans of the wasteland. My typical courier thinks very differently in terms of a good option for the wasteland itself. She's a stoic psychopath with short bouts of hyperactive glee, driven by the idea of the wasteland being much better off WITHOUT humans in it. To this end, combined with her own ironic indulgence, she attempts to leave it in the hands of the three factions who will "eat themselves" - the White Gloves very literally, the Powder Gangers with all their explosives and their already demonstrated infighting, and the Boomers when left to their own isolationist fears to turtle up from the other two and nobody to trade with (with their own explosives, of course). After that... it's the radscorpions, fire ants, golden geckos and deathclaws that get to rule, just as she reckons they should (and herself will go out in a blaze of suicidal recklessness against them following the destruction of anyone and everyone who she thinks stable enough to threaten a sustained leadership of the area). Creating a few more rifts along the way, of course. I play her different than me because it's lots of fun to be incredibly cruel in a video game.

[@swaguelclemens9164]

I love how it turns into a Maoist struggle session when it discusses the flaws in their character

[@duploman1000]

I believe in democracy but when it comes to things like households and creative projects it has to be a little ditctatorship or it just goes to shit. In the wasteland something on the scale of the NCR probably has to be inneficient, inflexible, bureaucracy, but the tiny communities that make it up or allign with it have to be led long-term by long-term figures of the community with vision to carry out a somewhat authoritarive leadership. Aspiring towards full direct democracy when many people aren't that clever and just like the sound of their own voice, or become an obstacle to any direction whatsoever for ideological reasons, is a recipe for hardship and squalour without the dynamic reactiveness required. (look at a squat pre and post democratization for instance)

[@shorewall]

Yep, humanity is based on following charismatic leaders. Since the tribal days. I think allowing leaders to be replaced is important, because a good war leader may not be a good peace leader, and vice versa. I think people should be able to choose their leaders, since they bear the risks of a bad leader, and reap the benefits of a good leader. Kinda like, you get what you deserve. I agree that any state that gets too large will naturally be more inefficient. It is inevitable. I don't believe that the Legion has solved that problem, despite claiming to. Even by having everything be a capital offense, doesn't lead to efficiency. One of the Chinese dynasties fell, because when a group of men showed up late to training camp, it was a capital offense. So they decided to rebel, and the rebellion grew. Look at the Centurion who wants to defect to the NCR. All because leaders who lose a battle are expected to kill themselves. IRL, there would be way more of that guy, or they would go through with it and you would lose many good leaders to that. How many great leaders irl lost battles, but learned from it. Hell, look at Joshua Graham. He is still the best second in command over Lanius or Vulpes, the perfect blend of war and peace that the Legion could use, but Caesar cut him off as a useful asset. That is the problem with the "no tolerance policy." Every great and warlike conquering people eventually kills off all of their strong warriors in battle, and have nothing left. The Mongols conquered the biggest empire in Human History, and their united empire fractured in less than 100 years. The Legion are no better.

[@azreth7190]

Arguing with A.I. is like arguing with a Gnostic.

[@drakefs_]

This is the most insanely based comment I could've ever hoped for

[@reRolloden]

How can't you put a like? It is a very good debate, and the AI said little but still a lot of interesting things. it was on point on everything, imo, unfortunatly NCR ending is a little bit better than House's tho its not known, correct me if i'm wrong, that House does not have a contingency plan, for after his death (it could be anything: imo something of a ultra advance Ai that will start to fix all the things in and around Vegas, or it can be a mega nuke that destroy the hearth, IDK XD). But is True.: his courrier ending can be still the best one.

[@hawkofthereborn43]

Technically House, he was there before the other 2 big factions even heard of the Hoover dam. This is his turf by law as far as I care

[@arno_groenewald]

You should really think about expanding this to the rest of the franchise and other titles.

[@paulwarburton3471]

Well countdown to full sky net they've taught a.i. how to think and respond like reddit admins how long until all of us are John conner facing a dark a.i. fate?

[@jamesbenthul4590]

The player may kill Mr. House, but he's backed up in the Lucky 38. Yes Man practically says as much at the end of the game, to the vapid nods and smiles of everyone who thinks they liberated Vegas. So it doesn't matter how the war ends. The House always wins.

[@Hypnotically_Caucasian]

Say what you want about AI images, but the well dressed robot in the thumbnail goes hard AF

[@CourierSixty]

This AI has a fedora

[@jerrjohnpresti]

well, i would lean towards the NCR too. but that's me from pre-war. whenever i play fallout, i often think the best faction is the brotherhood of steel simply because of its large resource base, and i also recognize that they are fascists, but in the context of the wasteland, that simply doesn't matter anymore. so, i wouldn't go for NCR but i also wouldn't go for the legion because of its regressive nature. the brotherhood has resources and crucially prefers technological advancement and defense. the legion would die soon, but the brotherhood would not. of course, the brotherhood isn't an ending faction of new Vegas, so my ideologies would really lean towards mr house.

[@ihateyankees3655]

I don't even like the legion, but the AI calling them homophobic when Cass will mention in game that they have a lot of gay sex is hilarious.

[@drakefs_]

*disagrees with A.I. ideology* "h0mOpHoB3"

[@SuperGman117]

They explicitly are homophobic. It's punishable by death in the Legion. I imagine there may be a significant presence of secret homosexuality in the Legion, but Caesar's policy is made quite clear.

[@shorewall]

They can be homophobic and still have gay sex. Then again, how would Cass know? I think she was using the common tactic of accusing a homophobe of being closeted gay. Because it pisses them off. And at the same time, it is interesting how several noted anti-gay crusaders irl were found with gay protitutes. And going back to Rome and Ancient Greece, receiving gay sex was seen as shameful, but being the giver wasn't. Just like in modern day prisons. It is a hypocritical, but common, mindset among hypermasculine societies where access to women is restricted, like at sea, or on campaign. And knowing that female Legion slaves are susceptible to soldiers' forceful advances, I think the chances of the Legion having gay sex in the ranks, while being openly homophobic (because it is seen as unproductive and leads to one of the two being emasculated in a military society that is obsessed with masculinity), are high.

[@bloodkip9462]

And a former Legion slave says it's punishable by death. Well it's legal in the NCR Major Knight tells you it's looked down upon in the frontier and the Legion is more forgiving. Chances are it's NCR propaganda that the Legion is super gay.

[@stephenb3104]

I’m not a fan of an autocrat even if he is an intelligent man with high tech

[@icedoutgecko9607]

Reject capitalism and totalitarianism, Embrace small scale settlement communalism.

[@shorewall]

Then be conquered by Capitalist and Totalitarian mega states. That's how it happened the first time.

[@andrewbowen2837]

But which faction does that? Independent?

[@RustyShackleford76]

Personally I think Mr. House would be the best option. He would be a “benevolent dictator” and take humanity to the stars!

[@lVladimirl]

patroling the new vegas content makes you wish for another nuclear winter

[@1......Caesar......1]

Can you do this again but instead debate about the robots of fallout please?

[@DefenderHomesteading]

The background music got kinda annoying after about 5 minutes, other than that I enjoyed this.

[@leonrussell9607]

Legion is the only valid answer

[@Hypnotically_Caucasian]

Ave true to Caesar

[@MyLittleRayMan-nm2gm]

Wrong

[@okupant880]

AI chose the faction thats the most diverse since its the most likely to allow it to coexist peacefully.

[@vadimkiruhin1226]

Okay who is better ruler in Westeros?

[@mikefire-beard173]

One moooore thing! House seems to have a god complex. While he is with out doubt a very smart guy. He only trusts himself. (Only trusting the carrier when he needs to) the people in his city are drunk, high, gambling, whoring, in debt with the sharks, getting fisted and eating other people.. He lets this shit go on just to build a money farm to be able to get what he needs for his work. He doesn't seem to care about the people in his own city. His loyal army of robots are just further proof he doesn't trust anyone else. They can't talk back, refuse, and must do what they've been ordered to do. And look how that turned out.. * points to a picture of yesman. And the very fact thats how you bring house down proves his way is flawed and not the best for leadership. How can you put your trust in a guy thats completely selfish, and trusts Noone else.

[@ameliaraevert611]

Just curious, what would your AI think of what happens when the BOS finds out Danse is a synth?

[@Gucci_Nomad]

Yooo the AI CHOSE FREEDOM!!

[@LordMevris]

It was a good debate, but it would be nice if we could access an AI, that is not hardwired to be 'politically correct." Then we could have more interesting conversations, maybe?. My opinion for the wasteland: would be better to have an authoritarian leader with a clear goal than a corrupt democracy with a bad track record.

[@holo7070]

REDDIT AI

[@unsatiable3860]

So NCR is best huh Cass was right

[@Thagomizer]

It's my personal headcanon that my NCR-supporting courier got it on with Cas at some point after the endgame.

[@bella42291]

Authoritarianism is internally canabalistic, there will allways be a challenger from within. The game doesn't give the player the option to start a government, and even mentions the courrior leaving.

[@waderepourtous82]

where did it get that lgbt stuff. i don't remember the game mentioning any of that and rarely do sexual things even get hinted at, even if they somehow thought about that and gave sexual background to every faction then wouldn't like, most factions not care? other than the ocasional "reproduction duty" that everyone might have at some point in that kind of scenario, i doubt that who have relation wich who would be a priority for anyone, even ceasar tribe is based on the roman empire and they got busy with everyone. also that guy that was a little girl in the computer simulation, that's the t in lgbt so really, what did this ai smoke and when will this trend of pusing specific themes in conversations finally stops when it comes to certain ai chatbots. if it makes sense to talk about it, sure, but don't seem like that at all here or maybe i missed something in the video, i dunno

[@bloodkip9462]

My man there's 2 perks that let you be gay and rizz up other gay characters.

[@Bitzell]

The weaponsmith at the mojave outpost

[@waderepourtous82]

yeah, that too

[@Bretcool5566]

do more please.

[@panzercake8485]

Hey you got a link for that art in the thumbnail?

[@fixitfeilix5051]

"No objective morality" Explain the karma system then, machine!

[@nikkup4745]

I believe the NCR is generally the best outcome for the wasteland. If you believe that living in a totalitarian dictatorship is best for you, then move to an existing one. Example: Communist People's Republic of China, Soviet Russia, People's Republic of North Korea, People's Republic of Vietnam, Independent city state of Singapore, most Middle Eastern countries, Most of Africa, all of Central America, most areas of South America, Monarchy of Luxemburg. In other words, most of the world at large.

[@LexaproAddict1309]

Id be okay with Singapore or Luxemborg

[@nikkup4745]

@@LexaproAddict1309 Luxemburg is alright, not gonna lie, but Singapore is a lot more strict in rules. You get caught with drugs there you can kiss your life goodbye. It takes the worst parts of capitalism and socialist (any) ideals and puts it to work. A recent law is no premarital sex to list a couple laws so far. Careful who you get on the bad side of there. One slip up with the wrong guy and you'll land in jail without warning. They are corrupt beyond the NCR and today's United States.

[@matro2]

Just move to Soviet Russia bro

[@nikkup4745]

@@matro2 lol

[@megamanx1291]

A totaliterian dictatorship is not communism. Communism is a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs, so none of the countriew you mentiod practise communism. Not even the CCP as they dictate too. The people have the power in communism. Communism is abscent from the world in 202

[@articusramos808]

To add some weird thought, alot of people seem to want to be a legion member. I wonder why?

[@shorewall]

LARPing, just like the Legion in game. :D I want these guys to join the army to sate their desire for fascism. You won't get much choices there. :D

[@articusramos808]

@@shorewall they probably want to use a throwing spear

[@slider7500]

you forgot the 5th and 6th faction The enclave And the unity

[@leatherDarkhorse]

dude, you sure you not debate with liberty prime?

[@MrBrimbles]

"best" Hey there pal, that is a presupposition! What justification are you grounding that in!?

[@drakefs_]

I'm a devout Catholic, my entire worldview is presupposed with big hat guy

[@jeffwilson1394]

Bot is too constrained to be effective

[@sykrotima9528]

we all know the BoS is the meta choice

[@MrBrimbles]

23:00 "There is objective morality" In my opinion, objective morality is bad

[@drakefs_]

Cannot tell if this is a joke, which would make it the best joke of all time

[@MrBrimbles]

What do you mean "all time"? The time is right now. Just look at the clock lol

[@drakefs_]

@@MrBrimbles Based

[@Gucci_Nomad]

SKYNET IS YOUR FRIEND!

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

Why nobody mentions that as independent Courier you are totally reliant on Yes Man in all aspects and that overwhelming reliance and bottleneck is greatest flaw of any factions? You are not controlling independent Vegas, he/it is. House controlled his systems directly, while the player, with their inferior knowledge (he or she can't possibly be as acquainted with pre-war technology as Mr. House) has to utilize Yes Man. How can you feed New Vegas should you antagonize both NCR and Ceasar's Legion? How can you be safe if you are required to move around negotiating with people? House avoided this risk by being a recluse. Is this sacrifice player is willing to make? Under employ of Mr. House Courier was rather low value target, as a leader of major kingmaker faction and weak link, every gun from California to Midwest is aimed at their head. Everyone benefits from taking courier out of the picture. House's plan also relied on cooperation with NCR. Man himself admits he can't reignite research and development without workers, scientists, resources and brainpower from NCR. Society of consumers is necessary to feed Vegas. Without NCR, goodbye revenue. So you have to cooperate with NCR, which is very unlikely notion should you antagonize them. Most damningly, for any continuity to happen, eventually Yes Man has to obey Courier's successor. Transference of power is weakpoint of all autocracies, and indeed, fatal weakness of all other factions other than NCR.

[@andryuu_2000]

I'm sorry AI.. I prefer Yes Man

[@Thagomizer]

NCR for the win!

[@fabio6170]

Seems this AI doesnt know anything about Ceasar Legion... Also lgbt rights... In a post apocalitic game?

[@fujicrew170]

This is just me being a nip picky about slavery and cannibalism Person is stranded and has no other food source and the other person dead not by said person but could have been therefore the only two options eat the corpse or die. As for slavery I can't really think of anything that would justify it only a government that Forces criminals who committed certain crimes into forced slavery. This would be subjective morality. Naive thing. I forget couldn't find the part. It would be naive to think there are no exceptions to objective morality. by whether subjective view or an extreme circumstance. I'm just taking that comment at face value.(the slavery and cannibalism).as you wrote the video doesn't reflect you perfectly.(your pinned comment). You might have been just talking about with that comment how letting any of that happened might have it spread due to the tribal society fallout has. Idk I'm overthinking this.