I'm SICK of WotC Doing This

[@IcarusGames]

What's that, a NEW pinned comment? That's right, I've got even more to say on this 🤣 I just got done watching the latest video talking about the Greyhawk campaign setting in the upcoming DMG and Chris Perkins drops my favourite comment; saying that it has "never been done" in terms of a campaign setting being published in a DMG. But the 4e DMG had Fallcrest, which exactly like they describes in that video, starts with the town of Fallcrest where the players begin and serves as a campaign hub with a map and descriptions of locations. From there, it expands out to the Nentir Vale, a wider map with short descriptions designed to spark the DM's imagination for the wider world. There's also a section on how each race and class might be connected to Fallcrest and the wider Nentir Vale region. AND a sample adventure for 1st level characters set in the region. What's in the 2024 DMG will no doubt be more substantial, but the claim that this has NEVER been done before in a DMG is just flat out false. More than that, I hate this blatant 4e erasure! 😅

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

Let me add insult to injury. Waterdeep Dragon Heist. The 2017 adventures opening scenarios 1st major treasure reward; "The second crate, stolen from a caravan on the High Road, contains fifteen 10-pound silver trade bars, all black from corrosion but still worth 50 gp each." Lead Designer: Christopher Perkins, Lead Editor: Christopher Perkins.

[@SheBeast-OG]

It's really brought into focus how few people have actually read the older books.

[@IcarusGames]

100%

[@enixxe]

I remember reading a comment on reddit that I'm quite certain was sincere in which someone complained that darkvision was completely busted and proposed "fixes" to it that were literally just the normal RAW limitations.

[@zhornlegacy7936]

Getting this happen with people in the local dnd club. "I'm excited for [new thing]! This is going to be an amazing to have new content" And I'm here showing them pages from the 2014 books and pre-2024 books trying to get through to them "It's not new. It's already in the game. And half of the changes they are showing are actually less detailed revisions that have cut out content" (example: compare the XGtE section on tool to the [new] version in the 2024 PHB). ... And then the next week rolls around with another video with people talking about the next [new thing] that already exists...

[@RottenRogerDM]

Or as I discovered yesterday, the layout is wacked. Like Magic item creation pricing is in chapter 6 in Downtime. Instead Chapter 7 treasure of the DMG.

[@MrTabanese]

Pg 157, PHB. Trade bars weren't even "hidden" in the DMG.

[@IcarusGames]

*apoplectic screech*

[@TheReedsofEnki]

I think the point they went with is that the useless thing wasn't in the DMG in the previous version. Though I don't know anyone who has used these items in game.

[@IcarusGames]

@@TheReedsofEnki It was also in the DMG on page 20, as mentioned in the video, and in previous editions on the game. So by every conceivable definition, it is not a new addition to this upcoming DMG.

[@adamessex7743]

One old man to another, I've been yelling at clouds for a while now too.

[@IcarusGames]

At this point I expect them to start yelling back at me, it's only polite for how often I address them!

[@Zertryx]

They did the same thing with "Tools", they were like "oh yeah we added New uses and ways to use Tools in 2024 PBH and things you can craft with them" .... and then they release it and its BARE BONES ONE liners. Meanwhile XGTE has an Entire page dedicated to EACH tool and has WAYYYY more things and DC's and rules for what you can do with them.

[@badmojo0777]

go play a friggin video game if you want someone to do all the work for you, its a gamwe that works on YOUR IMAGINATION... as soon as they quantify and fill in all tyhe dietails evyerone will bbe sVCREMAING tha tits too contraining and doesnt fit THEIR vision of how it shold work

[@Zertryx]

@@badmojo0777 Its not about doing all the work for me, its about a useful collection of information that i can then use to adapt and mold. Telling me "Thieves Tools" - Used to Unlock Locks is not very useful information. i can already surmise that Thieves tools are used to unlock doors and chest by the name alone. However XGTE also added other ways and IDEAS (key word here "IDEAS") of how to use the tools, that I would not have thought of normally alone and made the section of the book 10x more useful than a 1 liner. Reading that section inspired me to actually use tools in more creative ways (like now allowing characters who are proficient in Thieves Tools" to add their Prof Mod when making History checks to determine who / where a lock might of been made by or from.) The book doesn't Tell me i HAVE to do this, but it defiantly added more inspiration to my thought process by including it. THAT is why i prefer when the books include More detailed things to do with objects because they INSPIRE.

[@this_epic_name]

@@Zertryx Couldn't agree more. I added the XGtE text verbatim to the descriptions of any tools my PC's carry, and they've run with it. To your point, it's not just the DM's imagination that can be inspired, it's the other players' as well.

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

My favourite was Jeremy Crawford walking back the Ardling and trying to say that it wasn't the replacement for Aasimar that everyone called it out as being. Still your point stands. Lying about things that they can bank on most people having not read is terrible. It's a game of chicken and when we get the creatives lying to us on camera how can we trust any of them anymore that we can trust the management.

[@innocentsmith6091]

I think it's indicative of their intended audience. It's like how scammers don't intentionally put little effort into fooling people: you'll fall for the scam if you're dumb enough to trust "Mlcr0s0ft" sending you an email about viruses. They don't have any incentive to appeal to us grognards, because it would take real effort to impress us. Not to say new players are dumb, but rather that if you don't know anything about RPGs it's easy to take WOTC at face value.

[@swordplaysorcery]

WotC: Everything in the 2024 Ranger Class is BRAND NEW. Reality: It’s literally just Tasha’s but worse. I’m so glad someone else is ticked off about them insisting things are “new” when they’re not

[@AJBernard]

Ginny Di and Professor Dungeon Master both made videos saying "We just read the DMG for the first time and it's great!" If two of the biggest names in the game are admitting to having never read the DMG, WotC is probably banking on the idea that NONE of us know what's in there, so they can hype a lot of it up with "this is the first time we've included it!" They're lying to us and we're just drinking it in like clapping seals.

[@IcarusGames]

Yeah I touch on that very briefly in the video, but I do very much feel like I am in the ultra-minority of folks who have actually read the 2014 DMG and know it's actually packed with awesome info, it's just really poorly organized.

[@timjohnson2533]

This was the reason I lost all respect for the three 'leads' of the design. It genuinely made me sad. I used to love watching Chris Perkins or Jeremy Crawford excitedly talking about the game years ago, before this whole shift happened. While I don't play D&D anymore, I don't _hate_ the game. So I hope it succeeds. When I saw them using the phrase 'new' for so many of the things in the PHB, which weren't new.. They were old ideas dragged from Tashas and Xanathars, I started realizing they may be just towing the company line now. I really dislike the weaving around wording that they're doing too. It almost seems like they've been heavily 'media trained' (which is a real thing) and/or a lot of their copy to talk about was given to them by lawyers using very specific language. For instance, Chris stated that trade bars were 'New to this book'. While it was categorically untrue, as you proved, the wording suggests "Oh it's new.. To THIS book." They don't use natural language anymore. They don't seem to be free to just talk about a creation they should be proud of, and passionate about, because the company lawyers/media reps fingers are just all over what they say these days. I miss the wild days of early 5e. They had a couple people (Kate Welch and.. I can't remember the guy's name) who would do these impromptu 'here's what's coming up' podcasts and often one of them would let something slip, and they'd laugh about spoilers, but it really, really enticed you and got you excited about what was coming up. Its all just.. Produced now. They're so terrified of giving away anything useful, or exciting. They didn't give an example of crafting, no examples of magic item costs, no examples of creating monsters/NPC's with working tables. I think the only thing they talked at length on was Bastions.. Which _is_ new, and indeed what they should have focused on, but wow.. They make sure you don't get any hints about what any actual mechanics are :( I still hope 5e succeeds. It will. But I'd like it to be exciting for the people still playing it.

[@tobyr21]

for the last entire year, there has been confusion about how much of the new version of DND would be different from 5E. Now it’s obvious: everything that’s new is actually old. -Toby

[@GM_Joe]

He also says that this first DMG is the first one to include a complete campaign setting and in a way he's technically correct but TSR did put out the rules cyclopia at the end of the BECMI run that was basically a combined player's guide and DMG for the entire BECMI rules, and it included the entire Mystara campaign setting

[@IcarusGames]

Again, this is where the disingenuous element comes in; because I'd hope the Greyhawk they are including is going to be the most expansive setting they have put in a DMG, BUT the 4e DMG had the town of Fallcrest and the surrounding Nentir Vale, which was a small campaign setting perfect for getting started. And then right at the back there was an adventure for the Kobold Hall with an area-by-area breakdown. So they HAVE included a campaign setting and adventures in the DMG before. And all 3 of the project leads for the 2024 books are credited in the 4e DMG, so they know that what they are saying isn't wholly accurate.

[@Starwolves57]

First time I saw Trade Bars is Advanced D&D Birthright Campaign Setting. A gold bar being 2000gp in worth.

[@des757]

I'm 100% not moving over. I've got all my stuff, all my players and I just find fun things from the new book and "homebrew" them backwards. I don't even have to think of this stuff lol, it gets my blood boiling.

[@jaysw9585]

Wait until your players start demanding getting a stat bonus for feats and want to switch out 2024 abilities that are more powerful or more balanced against the Tashas stuff.

[@des757]

@@jaysw9585 That sounds like a fun way to have some 0 prep side content on empowering a spell, or discovering a more powerful proto-variant of the common spell.

[@hoodinifail2536]

I just play 2014 and google the new rules and pick and choose what to use for free, screenshot then shove it in a dnd picture folder. Savings...... i think so. That way im not pay twice for 90% of what i already bought.

[@rollenspiellehrer]

As a teacher im not sure if i do the switch. The more I research it, the more it seems like a money grab

[@philipflanigan9375]

90% of the changes that you might want is available for free.

[@rollenspiellehrer]

@@philipflanigan9375 true. The German version isn't available for another 6 months ... I don't think they will translate the srd 🫠

[@IcarusGames]

Just to head off the inevitable hate comments that a video with a negative D&D slant will bring; - Yes I will still play 5e (and revised when all the core books are out) because it does what I need a heroic high fantasy system to do the best. - I do play plenty of other games systems when I want a different genre or tone. - No, I'm probably not going to switch to "insert basically 5e clone with the serial numbers filed off here", unless it fits the needs of me and my specific table better than 5e, in which case I will 😅 Now, back to shouting angrily at the clouds 😡☁️

[@usermammal]

@@IcarusGames yo I love 5e and so does my table Don’t let the haters bring you down it’s a perfectly cromulent system and hackable af

[@Belly6815]

To post the obvious, why are you surprised. Their behaviour of late has been disgusting. OGL as a start. They don't deserve blind loyalty. Move on to other better games. I dumped D&D years ago. 5th edition is tired and badly built. The new books are yet another lazy poor quality cash grab. Play new games. It's that time.... play pathfinder 2e. It does actually fix all of the vast holes in 5th edition. Like it literally does. Magic item pricing is backed in. The encounter design actually works across the whole game. The player options are vast and creative. The GM experience is vastly easier to run. The mechanics are simpler. I've run games for 20 plus years. 3.5 into pf1e and now pf2e. It's just a more rounded game. You can still play 5e. But getting angry about 5e and constantly going back to be disappointed is really not worth it. Try new things. Also great to see a UK based channel.

[@IcarusGames]

@@Belly6815 in the comment you're replying to I literally say I play other games when I want other genres and tones. I've run full campaigns of PF1, and I've played PF2 and while I initially really liked the system, eventually it had its own set of issues which were causing me to not enjoy running it for my regular group, so we switched back to 5e which is a better fit for the specific circumstances of that table. But I play plenty of other games when I'm looking for something that isn't heroic high fantasy (I'm playing Call of Cthulhu for the first time in a few weeks, which I'm super hyped for)

[@xxTerraPrimexx]

I was sceptical about clicking on this (felt a tad click bait) but I agree that some things are just rehashed. So far the 2024 PHB is actually really good overall, but the starting at higher levels is wrong, and I kinda feel like with the DMG some things, they bank on people not actually reading it. 😂 My main hope/concern is how to price the magic items, cause I'd they just slap that table in which already exists in 2014 DMG I will be bitterly disappointed. I want something like Kibbles Crafting Compendium l - which allows a full breakdown on setting a price ^^

[@IcarusGames]

@@xxTerraPrimexx I think you should prepare to be bitterly disappointed TBH. If they had individual magic item pricing why wouldn't they be shouting about it from the rooftops? It will either be a reprint of the 2014 DMG table, or a reprint of the XGtE table I reckon.

[@Doctor_Paxmor]

It's so dumb to buy the "new" book for the layout alone when you can just get a pdf with searchable text...

[@IcarusGames]

I happen to really like the printed format, but yeah I'd agree with you if they made PDFs of 5e material available.

[@Tysto]

It really feels like the edict they got from above was "Don't mess up 5e like you messed up 3e and 4e. Just make tiny tweaks to fix broken things but nothing that could change the fundamentals of play. Then, you know, spin it like it's more than that."

[@Weird_Quests]

They really need to think about how they are coming across after the OGL, the cancelled books... I wonder who signs off on this kind of marketing? It's only new to players with no other context (which isn't most of their market, I'm guessing)?

[@TwinSteel]

Same - like how so much of the 5.5 PHB is from Tasha’s - you don’t get to take credit for these things twice

[@williamgordon5443]

What I don't like is that there's still some vagueness and weird wording to the rules. Like how in the PHB under crafting spell scrolls, RAW (and I'm sure that this is not RAI) you can't scribe cantrip spell scrolls because the spell has to be prepared and the cantrips are KNOW spells. In the clerics spellcasting section under cantrips it says, "You know three cantrips of your choice from the Cleric spell list." Notice that second word. KNOW. I'm sure this is not RAI, but it looks like bad wording on WOTC's part.

[@Eirath]

A strange rule to begin with, as it is told cantrips are known because they were the first spells wizards learned. But how could they learn them if noone can learn them as they cannot be written down? How could they have been researched or created when noone could write them down? Nice catch-22 logic there. Cantrips as scrolls is a homebrew I always run with. There's no reason why. It's just some of D&D's old edition baggage for balance that made sense back then but no longer matters.

[@kennethray8473]

I don’t think the word “prepared” has the same strict definition now in 2024 that it had in 2014. In classes like the bard, the class tables listed “Spells Known” and now list them as “Spells Prepared”. My understanding is that “prepared” just means “able to be cast in the present moment” which clearly includes cantrips. If you don’t allow for this definition, you couldn’t cast cantrips ever. According to the 2024 PHB, “Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll.” The PHB just never uses the word “prepared” to refer to spells that are cast without using a spell slot. This isn’t some crazy bending of the rules either, because in the “Scribing Spell Scrolls” section there’s a one sentence sub-section specifically about cantrips and their cost and time requirements for crafting are listed in the table.

[@VMSelvaggio]

Waterdeep: Dragon Heist even had values listed for Adamantine Bars... (and probably Mithral Bars too)

[@shortreststudios]

So, I HAVE read the 2014 DMG cover to cover. Can't remember a dang thing. They could have said, "This is the first DMG that has guidance for building your own campaign," and I would have had no idea. 🤣

[@IcarusGames]

🤣

[@direden]

You mean like when they announced the upcoming Forgotten Realms source books... and said, "we've never done this before." Pretending that the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide didn't exist.

[@IcarusGames]

It was the literal cut to the next shot containing the book for me 🤣

[@dwil0311]

SCAG wasn’t a forgotten realms sourcebook, it was a sword coast sourcebook.

[@jaysw9585]

The SCAG was published by Green Ronin, not WoTC.

[@queenannsrevenge100]

…or the Forgotten Realms 3e Guide, which I still read occasionally to this day, and to my knowledge has not had that concentrated a volume of FR knowledge since.

[@simonfernandes6809]

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is NOT a Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. The last decent one was the 3.0 FRCS which came out in 2021.

[@darksavior1187]

I am not sure I am going to be as pleased with the new DMG as I hoped to be. I was hoping that they'd include more concrete magic item guidance similar to how PF2E has settlement levels to determine the highest level of items (magical or otherwise) that could be found there, levels for all the items to offer guidance as to which level they are appropriate to introduce, and a default inclusion of a magic item economy instead of none. Its not sounding like that's how they went with it though. I am waiting to see if the monster manual revamps monsters to provide more challenge to the game. These were amongst my biggest issues with 5E I wanted to get addressed in the 2024 revamp.

[@IcarusGames]

So the info for what levels are appropriate to introduce magic items IS actually in the 2014 text between the DMG and XGtE, but it's a nightmare to parse. I spent a weekend reverse engineering the info from those two books into a more digestible table for myself and have been using it for most of this year and it's been working pretty perfectly. So they have the info in there, they just need to present it better.

[@zelbarnap]

That thing that’s new about the 2024 book is the formatting. The way the information is disseminated that it’s all.

[@Zapi00]

I closed the original video when they gushed about magic item origins, minor properties and quirks then literally read aloud the tables from the 2014 dmg.

[@IcarusGames]

Yeah 😑 like, I'm glad they acknowledge the 2014 book was a mess of layout and hard to read, but to be promoting the new book by talking about stuff from the old book is a weird approach.

[@SerifSansSerif]

Trade bars were treasure in dragon heist. I have issues with what they're not doing, but yes, the redressing old stuff as new is really annoying. Honestly, if they left 90% of the new out and just reformatted, it would be an ideal second version of the same old books and great. And yes, it does feel like it's 90% old and yet the usablility is fantastic. Edit: also since trade bars are in one of the oldest 2014 modules, and you need to look them up to figure out what they are (and stupidly heavy and OMFG levels of treasure for when you find it, which is the actual problem of d&d by the books), that more people would know that.

[@IcarusGames]

They are also in the DMG *and* the PHB. I feel like every couple hours someone is coming forward with another 5e book that had trade bars in which makes the statement even more ridiculous!

[@TimoRutanen]

Let's set aside if trade bars has existed before. Why the actual **** is talking about ****ing blocks of metal as treasure INTERESTING TO ME? Do they have nothing cool to talk about ? This is all a scam isn't it.

[@rogerwilco2]

Why are they so obviously lying to us when these things are so easy to check? At this point, if they claimed the sky was blue I would look outside to check.

[@zacktipate9343]

We really need these people to talk and announce things WITHOUT all the pr filtering. We also need a dm book just on economics for deeper world building.

[@quantum_ogre]

They could have at least said " We are putting 'special' focus on these things!", and it would have felt less frustrating. But I guess new players wouldn't know the history.

[@c0smicC0wb0y]

The best part about WotC releasing new 5.5e books is the STEEP discount on 2014 5e books.

[@woodrowsmith8333]

I've been running and playing DnD for over 30 years. I've played every edition at one point or another, had over a hundred different players sit at my table over the years. My current group has been playing together for over a decade, we have ongoing campaigns that are older than our children. With all that being said, no one I know of will be buying anything else from WotC. Literally no one I play with or used to play with will be buying the 2024 material. We are done with Hasbro, there are plenty of other games and 3rd party creators that actually deserve our money.

[@mkklassicmk3895]

I am not a fan of D&D but everything you said is ridiculous. They produce a good product and sell it for a fair price. All the criticism has been entirely unwarranted.

[@woodrowsmith8333]

@@mkklassicmk3895 The fact that you don't understand something doesn't make it "ridiculous". Nothing I said was subjective or up for debate, it is literally the facts of my own experience. No one I know that plays TTRPG's is going to buy the new 2024 material or anything else from Hasbro. There are scandals and issues with WoTC's business decisions going back 20 years. For me and most of the people I know, the OGL scandal and the use and promotion of Ai are just the straw that broke the camel's back. I will not give my money to a company that has proven, documented in their own words, that they want to steal other people's work as long as they can find legal loopholes to get away with it. I don't care how "good" or "fair" their product is.

[@this_epic_name]

My impression as a bit of a newbie (2 yrs) is that the 2024 stuff is really no different than all the homebrew, house rules, and bolt-on systems that exist, except that it has the WotC stamp on it. 3rd party creators have been riffing on 5e for a decade; the 2024 books seem to me to be just that: a riff / tweak on 5e. In that context, the 2024 books are merely a drop in the ocean of available other 5e-compatible content.

[@UrsulaMajor]

​@@mkklassicmk3895 They can make a good product but the prices aren't fair by definition; they're making a profit, and a ridiculous one that comes at a huge human cost. They mistreat their employees, cut corners with ai, and in the end they're desperately trying to make it so you don't even own the thing you bought

[@FamBoren]

WotC makes great products, perhaps not for you, but everyone I know is excited about D&D and every iteration of it. The copies/clones out there are certainly not better - but they are different. I play other games like CoC and Traveller, but for fantasy I really like D&D and I will probably buy everything D&D that comes out, because I like and support the game.

[@hrothgarrannulfr1972]

Shouting at clouds is part of this hobby. Unfortunately, I've WotC has taken D&D in a direction that is different from where I wanted it to go. So, I'm exploring other systems to see if I can find something more sword & sorcery and more humanocentric.

[@IcarusGames]

My current fav for a lower fantasy, more sword and sorcery feel with more of a human focus (though with a few other options) is Shadowdark. It captures that magic of the Old School D&D feel where stuff is deadly and magic is esoteric and dangerous, but has a lot of modern design queues that I really like.

[@hrothgarrannulfr1972]

Yes. I have ShadowDark RPG and I agree that it's probably closer in feel to the type of game that I'm looking for. Haven't played it, yet. But, hope to, soon. I hope that it is as easy to homebrew for as it appears to be, on the surface. If it is, it will likely become my primary D&D style system.

[@9HPRuneScape]

Kudos to you for pointing this out! Integrity is everything for D&D now to their remaining fans and their corporate greed keeps pushing the game away from the passion of actual good game development into a cash grab to make up for PAST scummy actions only to keep repeating them as much as these “new updates”…

[@thedog_12]

I had this pet peeve with 2024 Ranger. They said it was reworked from the ground up and iut was bascially Tasha's with extra Hunters Mark features...

[@Malkuth-Gaming]

I mean we arent fooling anyone if we think people get the DMG for any reason other than the magic items xD

[@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec]

I absolutely agree. Everything they say is new , is just something they recycled from older editions. They keep doing it because it sells books. Wizards of the coast & hasbro has absolutely no problem lying to people. They in fact seem to make a game of how much they can lie to people.

[@dwil0311]

But that’s not what new means.

[@FamBoren]

Well, organizing things from multiple sources and putting it in one book is appealing to a lot of people. You have to take into consideration that a lot of people will start their D&D journey with the 2024 books. For them it will be very convenient to have the best of the old paired with new things and additions in one place.

[@dwil0311]

@@FamBoren And what you just described is new.

[@AzhirahVesryn]

I completely get where you are coming from. Good rant. As someone that buys products by Apple, I recognize the corpo speak about minor tweaks being lauded as major overhauls or "first time ever seen" when they just are not. I know it is all exaggeration. The better organization is all I really hope for. If they do the GM Guide book as they did the players handbook, I think it is fine. I am treating it as a reprint that just includes up to the current errata...

[@IcarusGames]

I'm also treating revised 5e like a big reprinted errata most of the time too, which is how I've kept the rage out of my heart this long 🤣 My problem isn't even with the content in the books, it's purely with how they are talking about them!

[@SeldonnHari]

You should check out Worlds Without Number. I think GMs should have a conversation with their players where they put it on the table that prices and economies are going to be what's fictionally interesting and challenging.

[@IcarusGames]

I don't need prices in games to be realistic, that's the thing. But the rules give (some) guidance on how much gold is coming in, I just want better guidance for that gold also going out so that the players' internal economies keep ticking along without them finding themselves either drowning in gold or so poor they can't even buy one potion.

[@usermammal]

@seldonnhari you had me at the first part but now I'm wondering if you're trolling

[@SeldonnHari]

Economies are always wonky and invariably things get out of scale quickly. I like games that gamify income like Root or Burning Wheel I would give my players a wealth status that can be taxed or shifted and gamified.

[@usermammal]

@@SeldonnHari but you think economies are what’s fictionally most interesting and challenging over other parts of rpgs?

[@SeldonnHari]

@@usermammal they are one part that can impact other aspects of play. Games like Root in Burning Wheel do money in a way I find most interesting

[@piRatCaptain]

They need to hype up people and say the old is new so the dumb consumer buys because they hear so much is new. The hilarious thing is that that didn't do much if any work on the new editions. They are polishing a turd.

[@badgerburns521]

At this point I feel blatently lied to. I was turned off WOTC from the OGL and stuff like this does not bring me around to like them yet

[@Elemenopi23]

Someone actually put to voice one of the big irritants of maing new editions just to make more money. They don't reprint the things I want them to reprint, but reprint stuff we already knew and then call it new.

[@jefR6875]

The also keep saying the tool stuff and how it can be used with skills and tool actions is also new. Apparently everyone at WoTC forgot about Xanathar's.

[@avengingblowfish9653]

My frustration is how a company with the resources of WotC and the history of D&D seems like they're figuring out how to layout a RPG rule book for the first time... While there are significant differences in mechanics between the editions, the general principles of how to run a D&D game or any TTRPG seem to be universal. You'd think they should have been able to perfect the layout of a good DMG by 3.5E and then been able to just tweak the formula in later editions... Why does every new edition seem like they're starting from scratch?

[@IcarusGames]

Yeah, you'd really think they'd have nailed that aspect years ago!

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

Mostly on account of it being the first system and Incorporating (or at least trying to) innovations over time. 5E for example is trying to be an OSR as it apes it's AD&D forebears. The feedback loop of testing (truth or fraud as that may be) enabling them to make it more like a committee (which has it's own pitfalls). Though AD&D and TSR was certainly more cohesive about its identity. WotC has reinvented the wheel everytime and I do think that each edition (not counting revisions) is very much it's own game.

[@RottenRogerDM]

But the cloud is in a new position. Like your front yard instead the back.

[@GrippaNL]

Haha I think this was a fun video. 😅 It may seem weird but my trigger for 2024 is different. My trigger is the two steps forward and the step back. Increase freedom of choice with classes and then restrict the ranger and the (awful) backgrounds. Increase the balance, and then have spells like conjure elementals.

[@IcarusGames]

Glad you found it fun 😊 I tried to tone down my seething rage with the edit and make it a little more goofy, otherwise it really would have just been me yelling to an empty room for 15 minutes 🤣

[@davidioanhedges]

WoTC is now managed by people who worked in Software, touting as new, features that have been there for a long time, but are not well known, is totally standard ... e.g. Win -> To tile the current window to the right half of the screen, has been advertised as a *new* feature in Windows 7,10,and 11 ... and was in ... Win 98 i.e. they have repeatedly advertised as new a feature which has been standard for 26 years ...

[@ASalad]

First half of the video: "Examples of things that you wish they'd finally add to D&D, like gold prices for magic items for instance." Second half of the video: "I don't really need new things, just making it easier to read is good enough." Seems to me WotC gets away with this stuff and doesn't have to put in any real effort because these ideas are so prevalent. As long as it had that fancy D&D marketing logo on it, people will keep buying it no matter how disappointing it is or how crappy the company that makes it is.

[@IcarusGames]

I can only speak for the PHB (as I say in the video) because it's the only one out yet, but what new content is there, combined with vastly superior organization and layout IS worth the price of admission IMO, without shiny "new" things that aren't really new. I WANT them to include individual magic item prices in the DMG, but if they do a similar job in terms of organization and layout improvements as they have with the PHB, the new DMG will still be a worthwhile purchase, even if they don't add said prices. What annoys me is this frequent declaration that there is "new" content in these books when it isn't actually new content; it's disingenuous at best and outright false at worst, and that's not OK. If they wanted to change absolutely none of the content in the books and just reorganize them and put in new art, I would fine with that, so long as they marketed it as a the basically fancy reprint that it would be at that point. I just want them to stop telling me X feature has never been seen before in D&D as I stare at copies of my AD&D books which contain said same feature.

[@HughRGlen]

WoTC leaning on video game design marketing tropes. Like when an annual sports franchise remaps buttons to the D-pad and the D-pad to the buttons and calls it "an entirely new engine, built from the ground up". 🤦‍♂️

[@tqbrowne]

Good video. Maybe it’s stealth marketing to drive up discussion on social media 😂

[@IcarusGames]

Maybe, but being fast and loose with the truth of your product feels like asking for trouble 😂

[@Noob_DnD_Dad]

Wow, good point. I just figured i could trust them at their word at what is new or not

[@dantherpghero2885]

This is the first edition to include dragons after all. Their next project is rumored to bring dungeons to the game for the first time.

[@IcarusGames]

🤣

[@acidreflow1553]

I do seem to enjoy older editions, but to each their own. The Long Rest stuff just doesn't make sense to me. "Hey you are on death's door, bleeding out, but no worries. If you get 8 hours of rest you are good as new!"

[@IcarusGames]

It is one of my least preferred aspects of 5e and I'd love to try out the 8 hour short rest/7 day long rest alternative rule.

[@simonfernandes6809]

Back in 3e, you only healed 1hp per level during an 8 hour rest. It turned Clerics into heal bots. And impacted what the PC s could actually do. The 5e long rest is better. Not great. But much better.

[@IcarusGames]

@@simonfernandes6809 It depends on what tone and vibe you're going for. I find it can be difficult to establish the idea of threat and consequence sometimes when the players know that if they don't die, no matter how banged up they get they will be 100% fighting fit after a sleep. Under the old school way, a big climactic fight would actually put them out of commission for a couple days, force them to do some more social stuff around the town, and engage with the world differently. It's all a preference thing!

[@JoeSmith-oy3hk]

If you recycle the content, you can lay off the designers, if you lay off the designers, you can boost the profit margins. Seems like good business to me.

[@paulsavas2394]

Trade Bars and Trade Goods, which is new. “New” could only qualify Trade Goods. 😬

[@B42UC4]

It was clear to me that almost nobody read the DMG when they passed a lot of optional rules as "new rules" on the "playtest" for the new edition. I think Crawford and Perkins are not capable of doing the job they landed after Mike Mearls was removed. The steady drop in quality since 2020 is a clear sign of that. I wonder if they even understand how 5e works.

[@IcarusGames]

They were both project leads for 5e back in 2014 and have been involved in the game since previous editions, they know how 5e works. I'm not sure their view on what the game should be always aligns though.

[@B42UC4]

@@IcarusGames As you mentioned , it is the same team that wrote the 2014 DMG, which by the way is the best DMG ever in my opinion. They gave DMs tables and lore for storybuilding, like in the old AD&D DMG. The supplements prior to 2020 (Volo's, Mordenkainen's, Ravnica, Eberron & Theros) expanded on those. After 2020 only a few books have delivered something in that style (Ravenloft, Dragons, Giants & Book of Many Things), and those fall short compared to the ones published before. There has been a change of design philosophy after 2020, and I don't like the new direction they are taking, since it walks away from the game I like to run and play.

[@brandona.8302]

I was getting similarly frustrated when they kept saying there were X new subclasses and spells in the PHB marketing, when most of them weren't new to 5e (coming from Xanathar's, Tasha's, etc), but just new to the PHB. Sure it's nice to have side content now in the main book, but it's not "new". I do like the new and changed content that is *actually* new; I just wish there actually was more of it for people who have already fully explored the content over the past decade.

[@IcarusGames]

Yep, 100% There's plenty of new and exciting stuff in the PHB without the need to present content being brought over from Tasha's and Xanathar's as "brand new" content.

[@kf1667]

Oh no... I was worried this would happen again.

[@armorclasshero2103]

All wotc ever does is regurgitate their own old content from decades ago. And they don't even do a good job of it. Absolutely pathetic for a billion dollar corporation.

[@solosmoke7330]

I really wish D&D wasn't owned by Hasbro. They are ruining the game with their greed. Yeah, there's some cool things been added, and I love that the game is seemingly everywhere right now, but the practices of the company behind it all overshadow the positives.

[@tonytallman2702]

I've been yelling for a while, and for the same reasons as yourself. And... I too have read the DMG.

[@Impath]

Would love to hear your thoughts on the info thats been coming out now that some of the content creators got advanced copies and have been discussing the DM guide

[@IcarusGames]

I've not been given a copy (not on WotC's list!), but I've seen a couple of the videos. I know that magic items aren't getting individual prices which annoys me. The table of prices we do get is just a simplified version of the one in XGtE which still lumps ALL items by rarity. But it does seem like the layout is much improved, which is mainly what I was hoping for, because the DMG already contained a lot of useful info, it was just a nightmare to find.

[@CorrosiveCitrus]

Aren't they meaning they are new, as in trade bars specifically being treasure in the DMG now, along with magic items, art objects coins etc In the 2014 DMG they were just using forgotten realms as an example of world building and thinking about how commerce functions in your home brew worlds and settlements, AFAIK trade bars never actually appear on any loot tables or even get a mention in the actual treasure section of the DMG. Id assume these will be appearing on the loot tables now, and getting a proper entry in the treasure chapter explaining them in a mechanical, setting agnostic way

[@IcarusGames]

So new "new" in the sense they've been moved from one section of the book to another? Really doesn't feel like that should qualify as "new" though, right?

[@CorrosiveCitrus]

@@IcarusGames Of course if all they've done is move it from currency to treasure, then it's not new. But if they are appearing in the teasure section, and it's anything like the 2014 treasure section, then we're going to have a variety of tables to roll on for those trade bars, just as we do for gemstones and art objects. One would hope. If that expection isn't met... then yeah saying "new" is BS. Page 20 really does not give you a lot of information, even if you wanted to make your own tables from that.

[@MrMuddyWheels]

I try to ignore their marketing to the best of my ability

[@NexusNetwork55]

There were trade bars in 1st edition

[@Ae0n5105]

It seems like WoTC is getting desperate to get people on the new version Train. No one in my playgroup (and a couple other Groups with people i know) have even talked about this new version and would prefer to just go with 5e and homebrew, or possibly Pathfinder before even looking at the new books. but this could just be our area.

[@IcarusGames]

I know plenty of folks interested by the revised rules, and give it a couple years and the majority of folks will be playing the revised rules, because they are the most up to date, currently supported, and shiny. This period of a release schedule is always difficult because until the core 3 books are out, the new "version" of the game isn't really playable because we don't know how things on the DM side of the screen have changed, only the player side.

[@EviIM0nk3y]

hmm that's funny, almost everyone that i talk to want to play the new version.... so yeah your area

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

It's really a little of both. People that rightly don't trust and don't want to pay WotC and Hasbro for the privilege. And people who always want the new thing, the added bells and whistles or just want to play and not think to deeply about the business end bs. And just like city hall you really can't fight the change. Not progress in this case but many don't care. The people who do largely run older editions without support of the new anyway. And I'm sure 5E will have there own pocket of that kind of play. Or they'll jump ship to something that scratches their itches better be it Shadowdark, Draw Steel, Daggerheart or something else.

[@Itachi45481]

Yeah no surprise there when I see their videos I’m like you mentioned X but did you talk about X or did you chat and run on X while not going into detail

[@Billchu13]

Magic item pricing and class balance both exist in 4e.

[@IcarusGames]

I say it all the time, but if another company released 4e on Kickstarter tomorrow with the D&D names stripped out, it would make a million dollars easily.

[@Billchu13]

@@IcarusGames "they finally balanced 5e" The people complaining don't want 4e they want 5.5 to be like 4e.

[@PatriceBoivin]

Isn't that false advertising, if people buy the new book because they think it includes a new feature which isn't actually new? "Buy this car! I has a spare tire, what an innovation, no one has ever done this before!" (older people -- wait a minute chump...)

[@IcarusGames]

I think such a thing would only be decided if they got taken to court (which definitely won't happen), but I could certainly see how someone could think that, yeah.

[@OutlawJJ80]

This "new" PHB, DMG, and Possibly the MM are just DnD 5.5e!!!

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

This. It's most certainly a Revised Edition and they are already being disingenuous in not saying so. What they want is a forever edition which they've wanted since 4E. Also don't forget the talk about focusing on the electronics and internet end. Once they get their Walled Garden up and running and are able to update the rules as they see fit they'll be happy. But not so much for people who want the original experience, the actual freedom to be flexible or the ability to keep playing without being charged to keep it all going.

[@Crashloop]

wotc doing wotc things, nothing new... :P

[@IcarusGames]

Most of the time I stay out of WotC shenanigans, because corpos gonna corpo, but this just got my blood particularly boiling 😅

[@rogerwilco2]

Not disengenious. Outright lying.

[@simontmn]

They never actually read 5e, how would they know...

[@IcarusGames]

They wrote it and were project leads 😂 who else is gonna know lol

[@simontmn]

@@IcarusGames The True Emperor, Marcus Aurelius... I mean, Mike Mearls :p

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

​@@simontmnFair point. But Mearls was lead design on 4E as well. And he got kicked out of the lime light for doxing and essentially enabling a freelancer to hassle co-workers. The end of that story was during last Christmas layoffs where they actually followed through on things an fired him.

[@simontmn]

@@MorinehtarTheBlue >>doxing and essentially enabling a freelancer to hassle co-workers

[@danielgoldberg5357]

I get that this was a slip up, I just feel you're really splitting hairs. I think he just meant it was new from 5e to the 2024 version. Few players these days know anything about 3.5 D&D.

[@doble_20]

Word of the day: Nitpicking.

[@IcarusGames]

I mean, you're not wrong 🤣

[@miguelsuarez-solis5027]

The people making the new systems have 0 idea of D&D

[@IcarusGames]

That's definitely not true! Jeremy Crawford started writing for D&D during 4e, and Chris Perkins and James Wyatt started back in the 80s and 90s respectively with 2nd edition. That's what makes this whole situation SO FRUSTRATING to me, they KNOW the claims they are making about this being the first time "X" has appeared in D&D, or "Y" has never been in whichever book before is false because they are long time veterans of the game. All three of them have credits in the last products that did these things they are now claiming are brand new.

[@miguelsuarez-solis5027]

@@IcarusGames Do you think they wrote the entire book? They have teams of writers. They don't know their own books

[@helix3955]

well said

[@roon-sy8fz]

Giving explicit prices would just be the CR problem all over again. People are asking for balance from a system that is inherently unbalanced. It's foolish.

[@IcarusGames]

Multiple editions of the game have had explicit prices for items 🤷‍♂️ if you don't want to use them as the DM you don't have to, but it's a lot less work to have them and not use them.

[@dwil0311]

I think your issue is with the meaning of new. It doesn’t only mean something novel that’s never existed. Something is new if it’s been modified or updated.

[@IcarusGames]

I could maybe get on board with that, but plenty of their "new" things aren't even updated, they are straight reprints from other books from the last 10 years.

[@dwil0311]

@@IcarusGames If it was brought in for a non DMG source, then it absolutely is. We and it’s disingenuous to frame it as not new. If it’s new to the DMG, then it’s new. This is as silly as saying things imparted from Tasha’s into the PHB as being not new.

[@IcarusGames]

The thing that prompted this video (trade bars) was in the 2014 DMG, and the 2014 PHB, and in older editions. By no reasonable definition do I think it's fair to say it's inclusion in the 2024 DMG is "new".

[@dwil0311]

@@IcarusGames Are you privy to information that the rest of us aren’t? You know how trade bars are being presented in the new DMG. This goes back to my first point. You are assuming that saying it’s new means it was never done before, whereas, the context indicates that they are doing trades in a new way not that the concept is new. Now if it’s a 1 for 1 reprint of what was in 2014, I’m perfectly willing to say you have a point t, but there haven’t been any other examples brought up. The only example is one we have no idea about.

[@IcarusGames]

@@dwil0311 As I said in the video, I complained about this in my review of the PHB. In the promo for that book JC talked up the new starting gold rules, which were just reprints of what was available in 2014 (actually with less information than the 2014 table, so if that counts as new what are we even doing here). Multiple "new" spells and character options in the PHB are reprints of content found in Tasha's or Xanathar's. So "new" to the PHB, and "technically" correct, but very disingenuous to call it new content. Same with the claim that the 2024 PHB is the first time ever there's been a "how to play" section before character creation. Both AD&D 2e, as well as 4e had basic how to play chapters before character creation. Not as robust as 2024, but it's definitely not the first time it's ever been done in any capacity. At several points early in the marketing cycle they made mention to magic item pricing in the DMG - the closer we get the more it seems likely that it will just be a reprint of the tables from the 2014 DMG or XGtE that people have been complaining about and asking them to fix. But I would LOVE to be wrong on that front, for there to be individual prices for all items, and to be sat on my floor with a ukulele making an apology video to WotC if that happens!

[@Eirath]

Oh, but it's semantics. It's new to the 5e DMG, just not new to 5e all in all. Just so they can point and tell, look another feature that wasn't previously there! Or... they know people would be mad about them removing it from the PHB so they make a deal out of saying it's there. In either case, it's just cynical.

[@ericg7183]

Ask your DM if Tales of the Valiant might be right for you.

[@IcarusGames]

I am the DM and it isn't.

[@ericg7183]

@@IcarusGames You're everyone's DM? Have you even looked at ToV?

[@IcarusGames]

@@ericg7183 I thought you were telling me to ask my DM, but I am the DM for my group. And yes, I have looked at it.

[@Darkwintre]

No its not. Wait what else did he get wrong?

[@Metal-Spark]

I know you've decided it's not for you (and that's fine) but this is exactly why I'm sticking with pf2e. I've never been loyal to WotC, I started my tabletop journey playing a homebrewed version of Cyberpunk, I dabbled with 3.5e but my teenage brain couldn't decipher the rules on my own, then tried other systems like Runequest and Open Legend, finally gave 5e a try in my 20s for a few years and then switched to pf2e just after the OGL nonsense dropped. I think coming to dnd so late and after trying a fair variety of systems lets me see it clearly for what it is. 5e is ok. Just ok. It doesn't wow me but it's a stable, simple and versatile system that set the standard. Unfortunately, WotC/Hasbro have done nothing but disappoint me ever since I started paying attention to their existence, I can only imagine how the fans who followed them in their prime feel. I switched to pf2e just over a year ago and that system actually does impress me and is run by a company that deserves my time, money and loyalty.

[@IcarusGames]

I'm loyal to my players and our table, and whichever system suits the story and experience we're crafting together. At the moment that's 5e but that could change in the future, and it certainly does change when I want a different genre or tone, or play with a different group.

[@Joshuazx]

I'm playing Basic Fantasy RPG. Have fun with your 5e.

[@BobMcDowell]

If you like them doing this, buy their stuff. If you do not like them doing this stuff, don't. It's super, super easy.

[@kevinst.pierre4413]

LOL. What you don’t understand is. This is for NEW fans only. Not existing fans. It’s like all corporations. Phone companies. Cable companies. Etc.

[@Nezarus0]

This is literally false advertising. And given this isn't just some marketing bloke, but someone that actually knows the book's contents, it is literally lying. They are telling us what they think of us. Quit buying their shit and just play 2014 or older editions.

[@IcarusGames]

If it had happened only once I would be way more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. But there are so many instances of things like this in the promo materials for the new books that I don't see how it couldn't be intentional.

[@crepusculum7472]

These are the same people who claimed the Red Box barbarian was *always* a woman.

[@LawDawg3777]

So why do you put up with it? Take your business elsewhere and play something else. I’m so sick of WotC. I’m trying my best to phase out our DnD games and move to Palladium. At least they dont have 15 different editions of their games.

[@IcarusGames]

Because I still enjoy the game, and it's still currently my preferred system for heroic high fantasy play. When I want to play other genres I play other games, but for what I play D&D for, it still does it the best (or least worst, depending on your world view) for me and my table.

[@KaiHouston-m6j]

Sales blurbs is full of lies? Who knew!?

[@Drudenfusz]

People still buy D&D or play 5E? Why would anyone do such a thing?

[@IcarusGames]

Because it's a fun system?!

[@scaryfingers101]

Me likes it! Me has fun! I’m sorry you feel insecure enough that you feel like you need to ride a high horse :(

[@TheReedsofEnki]

Its the myspace effect all over again. Since your friends are there and happy you go to 5e OR you go and isolate yourself with something like shadowdark and the much smaller marketshare it or any number of other games have.

[@usermammal]

@Drudenfusz yes, tell us all about the amazing and fun and perfect systems you use instead 🧐

[@Drudenfusz]

@@usermammal I don't think there is a perfect system, not even the system I am working on. I just think D&D tries to be everything which leads to it being nothing really well. That is why I think no matter what preference the people at your table might have, there is surely a system out there that might lead to a better experience than D&D.

[@Coopernicuss]

It's ok, we know how the KZbin algorithm works and that making outrage videos gets the most attention the fastest! Or you're actually mad about... that. 😂🤷‍♂ I don't see it as disingenuous but you do! Although I would suggest you take a breath, then think about the _possibility_ that you could do a better job of separating some subjectivity (ex. "no one cares..." "I just don't like..."). If you DM which I'm sure you do, make note of how those statements (Abracadabra!) can affect the players at your table who may feel different but may not be comfortable saying so out loud under those circumstances. Most looking forward to how Bastions work! And yes I even thought it was kind of cool when I saw TRADE BARS lol and yes I did miss it in 2014 but in the end wasn't it only like 8 seconds of the presentation? Maybe grab a snickers my dude.

[@IcarusGames]

It's got nothing to do with the algorithm 🤣 you think I sat down after dinner and though "you know what the algorithm would love? An 8 minute rant from some British dude about trade bars in D&D and the minutia of marketing language"? I've been ranting about this in my other spaces for weeks, and this was just the straw the broke the camel's back 😅 making this video was my way of getting a snickers. Now I don't need to rant about it every time they make some disingenuous comment about "new" content in the books, I've done it! It's an objectively ridiculous thing to be annoyed about - which I acknowledge multiple times in the video, and again right now. But the whole situation has me "old man yelling at clouds" 😂

[@Coopernicuss]

@@IcarusGames Ok you do you boo. So what else are you looking forward to in the new DMG? ;)

[@Solkaris]

ToV?

[@kevoreilly6557]

Then don’t buy it … really thy simple

[@ArcaneCowboy]

Seriously, who gives a poo?

[@JV-mt1yb]

Lying in promo material is bad, actually

[@Batterydennis]

It would come across as more genuine from yourself if you would say you will continue to play official D&D because you make online content, and official D&D gets the most views/clicks/interactions/comments as it is most popular.

[@IcarusGames]

@@Batterydennis 🤦‍♂️ yep, I'm out here lying about about enjoying a game of make believe on the internet for clout, you got me. Couldn't possibly be that for me and my table that 5e IS the best fit for a heroic high fantasy system? Or that when I want to play literally any other tone or genre I go and play a system that's more suited to it, and have started talking about those systems more on the channel (made a monster of the week video recently, have videos on Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller, and more planned in the pipeline). Nope, I'm lying to make friends 🙄